Apple's new butterfly keyboard switches

[vivalarevolución]

Wonderful, $80 so I can use two peripherals at the same time.

I wonder how much adapters are a part of Apple's business.  Margins are huge on adapters/cables/connectors/etc.

[jacobolus]

USB Type-C connectors are physically inferior to the Lightning connector in at least one major sense. The female receptacle makes use of a fragile tongue. In contrast, the Lightning male connector is itself the tongue. Also a reminder that Lightning is just a reconfigurable connector and not a serial bus.

On the flip side, USB Type C is a EU-mandated standard (at least for phones) that will soon be used by the majority of all gadgets in the world.

[Findecanor]

They also integrated FireWire instead of USB when USB started to become popular and only conceded to adding USB ports when it started to become ubiquitous.

Nah. I think that it was more that they focused more on Firewire ports for as long as it had a speed advantage over USB.
Firewire was also not Apple-proprietary, and neither is Thunderbolt actually.

[jacobolus]

Every computer Apple ever shipped with Firewire had faster Firewire than the same-era USB (and same story with Thunderbolt). I’m sure there are plenty of folks out there who appreciate having the faster bus as an option. Also, there’s no “instead of USB”: Apple has been shipping machines with close to the cutting edge of USB continuously since 1997 1998.

If Apple didn’t exist, I’m guessing USB adoption would be at least a decade behind where it is today, and computer vendors would still be shipping parallel, serial, SCSI, PS/2, VGA, telephone, ethernet, etc. jacks on all their machines. Oh wait, they still are.

[Salaryman Ryan]

The only thing that really makes me wonder about USB-C is why the new shape? Why not just use  USB-A shape like they did with all their reiterations? Perhaps for a smaller footprint or some technical reason we don't know?

[Oobly]

Every computer Apple ever shipped with Firewire had faster Firewire than the same-era USB (and same story with Thunderbolt). I’m sure there are plenty of folks out there who appreciate having the faster bus as an option. Also, there’s no “instead of USB”: Apple has been shipping machines with close to the cutting edge of USB continuously since 1997.

If Apple didn’t exist, I’m guessing USB adoption would be at least a decade behind where it is today, and computer vendors would still be shipping parallel, serial, SCSI, PS/2, VGA, telephone, ethernet, etc. jacks on all their machines. Oh wait, they still are.

Yup, and now all those Firewire and Thunderbolt peripherals are going to become lumps of useless "old" tech since they're not compatible with USB-C. Same as when they removed all the old proprietary ports when switching to USB. Then they started introducing new proprietary ports again and the cycle repeats.

Apple weren't even in the group of companies who came up with the spec and implementation rules of USB and their first machine with USB ports came out in 1998, so on their earlier machines it was "instead of USB". PC motherboards with USB ports had been out a while already. Then there's the fact that Apple owned the naming rights for "FireWire", so when implemented on PC's it was often simply called IEEE 1394 to avoid having to pay a royalty to Apple.

I do think Apple helped get USB more established, but only by removing their old propietary ports when introducing it to their range and making it more attractive for peripheral manufacturers.

However, PS/2 was / is arguably better for keyboard and mouse comunication, so universal adoption of USB by peripheral manufacturers was perhaps not really so awesome anyway.

Apple have a habit of doing things their own way, forcing people to buy new versions of items they already have due to incompatibility and then doing it all over again. Just look at ADB, the iPhone / iPod 30 pin connector and now FireWire, Thunderbolt and Lightning, all going the way of the dinosaur if they implement USB-C more universally. If instead they had adopted PS/2 alongside USB and Mini/MicroUSB for their portables like all other manufacturers they wouldn't be causing such problems to their own customers.

The new shape of USB-C is to allow the extra pins needed for more power and more types / speeds of data and to allow it to be inserted either way without affecting function, so you don't have to pay attention to the orientation of the plug when inserting it.

[vivalarevolución]

Apple have a habit of doing things their own way, forcing people to buy new versions of items they already have due to incompatibility and then doing it all over again. Just look at ADB, the iPhone / iPod 30 pin connector and now FireWire, Thunderbolt and Lightning, all going the way of the dinosaur if they implement USB-C more universally. If instead they had adopted PS/2 alongside USB and Mini/MicroUSB for their portables like all other manufacturers they wouldn't be causing such problems to their own customers.

Apple knows that most of their own customers will let out an audible groan, but eventually go about purchasing the new devices and/or adapters for old devices. 

[mecano]

They also integrated FireWire instead of USB when USB started to become popular and only conceded to adding USB ports when it started to become ubiquitous.

Well they had USB but always late to catch the last train (ie USB 1 when USB 2 was out, USB 2 when USB 3, etc.).
Now there weren't any firewire/usb debate, firewire was clearly better than USB.
No bottlenecks, faster i/o, etc.
In the early days, you really couldn't use high quality video or audio devices through USB, you couldn't plug a DVD burner and a hard drive without witnessing i/o traffic collapsing, etc.
I guess the USB/Firewire debate was started by sellers who needed arguments to sell their firewire less equipments.
It's partly due to the entry fee they would have to pay to the IEEE 1394 consortium (Apple,  Texas Instruments, Sony, Digital Equipment Corporation, IBM, and INMOS/SGS Thomson) to be allowed to use firewire.

[TopreFan333]

This is all way off-topic, but the other thing about USB-C is that for the first time in a while, Apple seems to be embracing an OPEN standard instead of something like Thunderbolt that requires licensing fees to build into products. That bodes well for seeing it come stock on other peripherals and on PCs, which will all just drive it toward ubiquity.

Personally, I'm not 100% sure I'm ready to have to use an adapter to plug in a mouse or a hard drive or my HHKB (back on topic).

[jacobolus]

Apple weren't even in the group of companies who came up with the spec and implementation rules of USB and their first machine with USB ports came out in 1998, so on their earlier machines it was "instead of USB". PC motherboards with USB ports had been out a while already.

Excuse me, you’re correct, 1998, not 1997. Not sure what I was thinking. Anyway, Steve Jobs came back to Apple in mid-1997. Apple machines pre- vs. post-iMac is two somewhat different eras. During the mid-1990s the company was floundering around, with no clear vision for figuring out a multitasking operating system, or finding new markets for their products. After 1997, well, you know the story.

But... while there were indeed earlier machines to include USB, there was virtually zero uptake of USB in the market. In 1998 most peripherals (scanners, printers, keyboards, graphics tablets, webcams, external hard drives, ...) all pretty much ignored USB, because it had a tiny market and customers didn’t care. Then the iMac happened, with nothing but USB and audio in/out ports, it was the most talked about computer in years, Apple sold millions of them within a couple years, and fairly quickly there was tons of USB compatible stuff available.

Edit: 2 more things to add. (1) USB support in Windows 95 was awful, and (2) USB 1.0 had some really severe problems, fixed in USB 1.1. As such, it didn’t make much sense for anyone to include USB ports or build USB devices before 1998 anyway.

Apple have a habit of doing things their own way, forcing people to buy new versions of items they already have due to incompatibility and then doing it all over again. Just look at ADB, [...] If instead they had adopted PS/2 alongside USB and Mini/MicroUSB for their portables like all other manufacturers they wouldn't be causing such problems to their own customers.

This is nonsense. ADB dates from 1986. PS/2 dates from 1987. ADB is a dramatically better bus. During which historical time frame do you think they should have switched from their own superior bus to the IBM version?

[jacobolus]

This is all way off-topic, but the other thing about USB-C is that for the first time in a while, Apple seems to be embracing an OPEN standard instead of something like Thunderbolt that requires licensing fees to build into products.

You should go ***** at Intel about Thunderbolt licensing requirements.

[TopreFan333]

You should go ***** at Intel about Thunderbolt licensing requirements.

I would, but I don't give enough of a sh*t. Thunderbolt is great for pros and their needs, and they can have it. Meanwhile my current Macs both have USB 3.0, which is fine for my purposes. Your point?

[mecano]

I wonder how these keys feel, waiting for these macbook to show at a near Apple Center.
Three days ago I had to type back on a macbook pro keyboard and the feeling was so mushy, was like the keyboard was fighting against me compared to a mechanical. I was quiet surprised because I'm not using a mechanical for long and my last souvenir of the macbook pro keyboard was quiet pleasing.

[jacobolus]

Your point?

My point is, Apple is just trying to make the best product they can. They need thunderbolt ports for external display support, and fast connections to peripherals, purposes for which thunderbolt has notable advantages over USB 3.0, HDMI, DVI, etc. They’re not just sticking them on there to make people on a forum angry about peripheral bus incompatibilities and licensing.

As far as I can tell, the demand for something like the USB 3.1 Type C connector was kickstarted because Samsung/LG/HTC/Motorola/Nokia/etc. want their phones and tablets to be competitive with iPhones and iPads on how thin they can be, and Apple’s Lightning connector is noticeably smaller than USB Micro B connectors (especially the absurd USB 3.0 Micro B), can carry more power for faster charging, and is much sturdier and reversible. Competing cellphone/tablet makers scrambled to get the USB consortium to fix their **** ASAP, and in the mean time their tablets were stuck with weird proprietary connectors (Samsung’s ironically looks similar to the old Apple iPod connector) instead of USB micro.

The USB consortium figured out how to take on both Lightning as a connector for tiny gadgets, and Thunderbolt/DisplayPort/DVI/HDMI as a connector for higher-bandwidth stuff, and simplify consumers’ lives by making both ends of the cord have the same reversible type of plug. It’s actually pretty impressive that it only took 2.5 years after the Lightning connector was introduced to have USB type C ready for action.

Anyway, I think USB 3.1 Type C is great, as I’ve said before. I can’t wait until all computers ship with type C instead of type A ports, and most gadgets use type C ports, and anyone with legacy devices has to just get an adapter.

[iron_alchemist2108S]

[5 Days Later]

Breaking News: Apple CEO under fire for allegations of ripping off their new butterfly switches from [nameless company in South Korea or Japan]. No one cares, everyone moves on with their life, and [nameless company in South Korea or Japan] continues to have their patents ripped off by Apple, and their stock prices drop while Apple's stock soars.

Seriously people. I bet they took this from someone else. Apple has a nasty habit of getting "inspiration" for their "inventions" from crazy "unknown" sources (hard to convey sarcasm across the internet). Every time they come out with something "new", it's like they invented a new inert gas. I agree that they should just make the MacBook Pro with a clean keyboard platform (no keys) to allow people to just plop their mechs down on top of it. However, I don't use Macs  .

[Eugene]

They take existing products and make them better (music portables in 2001, smartphones in 2007) or better looking. That's a pretty good track record. If there's not a single notable butterfly switch keyboard with mass availability, who cares if someone else already invented it...they failed.

And speaking of Apple stock, it was wort $1/share as recently as 2001. They've had their ups and downs.

[mecano]

They take existing products and make them better (music portables in 2001, smartphones in 2007) or better looking.

This is highly discutable some good example pops up to mind like 17 years of non flac support in iTunes, yellowing and crackling plastics in less than 1 year of use, toilet seat computer design, several recursing drops on several hardware and software solutions, trash can high end computer design, locking users in their coral more than often by removing functionalities that made them free and were available for years (forcing sync through icloud for example), etc.

There are no perfect company and Apple while having some wonders to offer is not out of the game when it comes to errors, wrong choices and fallacies.
And yes they stole the mouse ! 

"Junk is the ultimate merchandise. The junk merchant does not sell his product to the consumer, he sells the consumer to the product. He does not improve and simplify his merchandise, he degrades and simplifies the client." W. S. Burroughs

[mecano]

Seriously you have to buy a phone to use a watch?

Now back on keys! Anyone touch'em yet?

[TopreFan333]

Seriously you have to buy a phone to use a watch?

Now back on keys! Anyone touch'em yet?

I dare say the keyboard will be the deciding factor on whether I replace my 11" MBA with one. Even though it's small, I can't carry my HHKB everywhere...

[jdcarpe]

Seriously you have to buy a phone to use a watch?

Now back on keys! Anyone touch'em yet?

I dare say the keyboard will be the deciding factor on whether I replace my 11" MBA with one. Even though it's small, I can't carry my HHKB everywhere...

HHKB too big. Get a JD40/JD45.

[trauring]

As jacobolus pointed out, they did indeed change the typeface on the keys, from VAG Rounded (which has been on its keyboards since 1999, and was originally designed for VW in the 1970s) to San Francisco (an Apple-developed font designed to make text more legible on the Apple Watch). Some more details including the font info (but mostly the same info announced with the new MacBook) in this article:

http://appleinsider.com/articles/15/03/28/apples-new-macbook-employs-unorthodox-keyboard-design-to-achieve-maximum-thinness

[jacobolus]

Now hopefully they can replace the system UI font in Mac OS (and maybe iOS?) with San Francisco too, instead of the awful illegible Helvetica they just switched to in the previous version.

[bhtooefr]

So I've laid hands on this.

Feels like almost no travel, but if we're counting a Cherry MX blue as tactile (it's not very tactile, but unlike Edgar Matias, I will admit that it is tactile), then this is possibly a bit more sharply tactile than MX blues. Can't really be called clicky, I had to put my ear next to it to hear it. I suspect that it wouldn't take me long to get going quite fast on it, although I just played with it for a few minutes in the Apple Store.

Definitely better than the 2 mm travel scissor-stabilized rubber dome on my MacBook Pro Retina, despite the even shorter travel.

[sypl]

I tried it today as well, and it isn't bad. They keys feel really weird at first because the travel is so, so low. And because the keys are almost at a level with the plate/chassis/body it almost feels disconcerting, as I'm used to feeling for the next key via the gaps between them on a mac keyboard.

The keys are quite a bit larger and the gap reduced, so you have to get used to that. How long does that take though? Not long. I feel I was back up to normal typing speed and accuracy within 10 minutes. Bigger keys are definitely more forgiving.

Most importantly is that it's predictable. It breaks exactly in the same place each time with a fairly quiet 'dok!', and that's about all the tactility I need to be honest. I kind of like the idea that my fingers will have to travel even less than before vertically. I'm a fan of low travel keys: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70924.0

Those worried about the change in arrow cluster shape needn't worry. The shape of the the up and down arrows, where there's a curve in the key between them, makes homing in fairly simple.

My left ring finger and pinkie hurt after about half an hour, but I don't know if that's the keyboard or just acclimation. It's possible the bottoming out is too hard. Would have to type extensively to know for sure though.

[CaplockJack]

I'm thinking of buying one too.

[joneslee85]

Worst keyboard ever. I feel like I was typing a an iPad touch screen. The travel distance is so low, it just feel like there is no tactile feedback and it's like you are typing a very hard surface ( in my case I think it's more akin to typing on iPad ). It's ****, I hope that they don't end up bringing this keyboard type over to Macbook pro and air because the previous version is way way better. Trust me , this butterfly **** is really crap. I totally regret buying new macbook, it makes my coding job less enjoyable and I'm planning to sell it soon.

[Altis]

Tried it, really wasn't fond of it -- and I'm the one who has spoken highly of the Apple aluminum keyboard quite frequently.

The keyboard is a solution to the laptop as a whole, and as such is entirely a compromise. It's so the device can be super small, which somehow is supposed to make it more portable.

Anyways, as much as I like Apple,  I have no idea why anyone would buy the new MacBook over the new Surface 3, which is half the price and has very good pen input and actual ports without needing all kinds of adapters. The TypeCover, while not that great, isn't any worse than the keyboard in the new MacBook, anyways.

[mecano]

And so the hunt for hybrid/tablet laptop hackintosh you can use with a mk can begin… I've spotted the core M acer switch 12 which looks like a good candidate

[TopreFan333]

And so the hunt for hybrid/tablet laptop hackintosh you can use with a mk can begin… I've spotted the core M acer switch 12 which looks like a good candidate

In a perfect world, I'd be into a tablet with a USB port sufficient to power an HHKB. iPad ideally, but I'd consider a Surface if it had enough power.

Actually, for my use (writing) the most perfect thing ever would be a high-res e-ink tablet with a mechanical keyboard plugged into it.

[jacobolus]

e-ink is too high latency to be good for a drawing tablet. Too bad Pixel Qi is dead; a mashup of one of their displays with a Wacom digitizer would be sweet.

[TopreFan333]

e-ink is too high latency to be good for a drawing tablet. Too bad Pixel Qi is dead; a mashup of one of their displays with a Wacom digitizer would be sweet.

Yeah, I don't need a drawing tablet -- just after a nice, clean display for text.

[mecano]

In a perfect world, I'd be into a tablet with a USB port sufficient to power an HHKB. iPad ideally, but I'd consider a Surface if it had enough power.

Actually, for my use (writing) the most perfect thing ever would be a high-res e-ink tablet with a mechanical keyboard plugged into it.

Problem with the iPad is the OS, not even a shell out of the box.
I would love to have one only for the Logic Remote though

e-ink is too high latency to be good for a drawing tablet. Too bad Pixel Qi is dead; a mashup of one of their displays with a Wacom digitizer would be sweet.

The Sony DPTS1 looks pretty capable in that area…

Yeah, I don't need a drawing tablet -- just after a nice, clean display for text.

Hey what about a responsive color e-ink with multiple pressure for drawing, usb to hook a keyboard, ethernet for fast and secure sync/network and a next/haiku/bsd/osx OS like?

[Herothereu]

Doesn't the Surface have a color pen?

[mecano]

I had the opportunity to test the macbook keyboard this week end and found it awful, you think you'll hit a key and it feels almost like a touch screen, at least when typing on a screen you know what it will be like.
My wife found it very nice comparing to the previous keyboards, feels far less wobbly.

Doesn't the Surface have a color pen?

a colored pen?

[jamdox]

I had the opportunity to test the macbook keyboard this week end and found it awful,

It's not that bad, considering.  It's basically a 55g tactile switch with a .75mm travel.  Really odd, but useable.

[Eugene]

Put me in the camp that prefers it to the older keyboard, especially the center of the alpha rows.

[TopreFan333]

I had the opportunity to test the macbook keyboard this week end and found it awful,

It's not that bad, considering.  It's basically a 55g tactile switch with a .75mm travel.  Really odd, but useable.

Yow, is that the actuation force? I guess when you have that little travel, you have to make it stiff to prevent accidental keypresses.

[BucklingSpring]

I wonder how many cycles will it take to break the "flexing" joint in the center

https://youtu.be/dLNHJMHIne8

Oh well. Can't make the video working... Not sure what am I doing wrong.

[daerid]

I wonder how many cycles will it take to break the "flexing" joint in the center

https://youtu.be/dLNHJMHIne8

Oh well. Can't make the video working... Not sure what am I doing wrong.

YouTube embedding doesn't support HTTPS.

[mecano]

I had the opportunity to test the macbook keyboard this week end and found it awful,

It's not that bad, considering.  It's basically a 55g tactile switch with a .75mm travel.  Really odd, but useable.

Yes odd indeed, when going back to 'long' travel switches I was so pleased I guess this has a lot to do with my first impression on this one.
But didn't test it for long.

[KHAANNN]

(Reviving an old thread)

I had to sell my 2014 Macbook Pro that got swollen after Apple introduced an, in my opinion, intentional performance issue in High Sierra, water under the bridge, I managed to get over it, had to buy a new one

But I have to say, the new Touchbar and the Butterfly switches are BEYOND AWFUL

One one hand, you have the butterfly switches with no travel, very prone to misclicks, and no actual Esc

On the other hand, you have the Touchbar on the top, completely useless (but cool) - but whenever you click Esc or Delete, you end up mis-pressing whatever that was defaultly placed nearby

I started fantasizing about building a mechanical keyboard harness for the Macbook, basically an 60%-ish keyboard that'll get latched onto the Device above the trackpad, otherwise things are really annoying

(Small advice, if you think you'd feel the same way, and about to buy a Macbook, consider one without the Touchbar)
(Opinion: It'd be cool if they replaced the keyboard with a touchscreen with haptic feedback, it'd still be equally useless, but 1000 times more cool, with customizable buttons etc.)

[daerid]

After a year with my late 15" MBP Touchbar... I have to agree. I might enjoy typing on the butterfly switches, but they're horribly inconsistent. They get noisier the warmer the laptop gets, and start sticking a little. The touchbar is absolutely useless.

What I would absolutely love would be lower-profile scissors from the Magic Keyboard 2. Typing on that thing is a dream compared to the previous generation Magic Keyboard, and blows away the butterfly switches, no contest.

[Kevadu]

I've got a new MBP for work (not my choice, they bought it for me).  It's...OK.  Definitely not my first choice for typing on or anything but then what laptop keyboard would be.  It's still workable.  I like the touchbar for adjusting volume and...uh...I like it for adjusting volume.  Yup, kind of neat for that.

But as a vi user I will forever resent them for taking away my Esc key.  Not cool, Apple.  Not cool.

[Puddsy]

feel like typing on two dried lasagna sheets

[rich1051414]

But as a vi user I will forever resent them for taking away my Esc key.  Not cool, Apple.  Not cool.

I thought apple fans say 'If apple doesn't have it, it is just a gimmick'. Let's not bring up that totally not a gimmick touch bar

[daerid]

But as a vi user I will forever resent them for taking away my Esc key.  Not cool, Apple.  Not cool.

Code: [Select]

Ctrl+[ bruh.. been using that for 10 years, almost never hit the actual escape key anymore (at least not in vi/vim)

[Findecanor]

Don't modern vi users typically remap Caps Lock to Escape? On the keyboard that Bill Joy developed vi, the Ctrl key was to the left of A (Caps Lock on Mac) and the Esc key was to the left of Q (Tab on Mac)

[daerid]

I find for general computing it's a lot more useful to have Caps Lock remapped to Control. Escape is still fairly easy to reach, and hitting LCtrl+[ is easy enough in Vim. All about that muscle memory.

[Deefenestrate]

After a year with my late 15" MBP Touchbar... I have to agree. I might enjoy typing on the butterfly switches, but they're horribly inconsistent. They get noisier the warmer the laptop gets, and start sticking a little. The touchbar is absolutely useless.

What I would absolutely love would be lower-profile scissors from the Magic Keyboard 2. Typing on that thing is a dream compared to the previous generation Magic Keyboard, and blows away the butterfly switches, no contest.

The Magic keyboard is nice.

[nogoodnames444]

Im just going to say this they are awful. My parents have the new keyboard for the mac and I can't stand using it.