Author Topic: Low travel key options  (Read 6150 times)

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Offline sypl

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Low travel key options
« on: Mon, 13 April 2015, 04:09:51 »
So I think I like low travel keys. :eek: Actually I'm a little schizophrenic as I like the high travel of the Model M and the low travel of the macbook air keyboard. The mac one I like because it has low travel (around 2mm I think), and the travel ends right after, bottoming out without a harsh clack, with what I'd call a velvety feeling.

I'm not a huge fan of cherry switches because there seems a lot of wasted travel beyond actuation, and if I bottom out the clack is too jarring. I added o-rings to try to address this, but that makes it feel a little mushy, and the travel is still quite a lot. Plus, the blues' clicks sound more like 'ticks' to me, rather than the more desirable 'chock' of the Model M. I only really use Cherry switches because, well, there aren't that many different types of switches you can use to create a custom keyboard, innit?

But is there a low travel switch I can use to make a custom keyboard? I know cherry MLs exist, but I haven't seen anywhere selling them, and I hear they can only be used with PCBs. Are there any other options?

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Low travel key options
« Reply #1 on: Mon, 13 April 2015, 05:43:19 »
Cherry ML is likely your best bet, if you want a low travel tactile, non-clicky switch which can be built into a custom keyboard.

You can harvest switches and keycaps from this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/350632420547

If you like Model M switches, what other types of switches have you tried? I suspect you might also enjoy clicky SMK (“monterey blue”) switches, or Alps (or Matias) switches.
« Last Edit: Mon, 13 April 2015, 05:47:43 by jacobolus »

Offline fohat.digs

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Re: Low travel key options
« Reply #2 on: Mon, 13 April 2015, 07:04:44 »
I would recommend "jailhouse" blues with O-rings.

The jailhouse mod takes off most of the annoying click and moves the actuation point up near the top.

After that, there is very little need to bottom out, and I think that a little shock absorbing at the bottom is a good thing. And there are always those little rubber balls, which I have never seen or felt, but which intrigue me.
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Offline Oobly

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Re: Low travel key options
« Reply #3 on: Mon, 13 April 2015, 07:19:28 »
Cherry ML's are good IF you lube them before installing AND you have a PCB. You can use a thin sliver of oring as a shock damper for bottoming out (like the trampoline mod). They're a pain to open while in place and are not easy to plate mount, although Suka has managed to mount some in a 3D printed "plate" before, see the wing-style keyboard here: http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/my-diy-keyboard-collection-or-how-i-became-a-kb-geek-t2534.html

I like them a lot once lubed, they're somewhat like a short-throw ErgoClear with the actuation bump starting right at the top of the movement. 1.5x size and above are all stabilised to help reduce "stiction" from off-axis presses.

They're the only discrete (separate switches) short-throw option I'm aware of.
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Offline sypl

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Re: Low travel key options
« Reply #4 on: Mon, 13 April 2015, 09:03:48 »
If you like Model M switches, what other types of switches have you tried? I suspect you might also enjoy clicky SMK (“monterey blue”) switches, or Alps (or Matias) switches.

Thanks for the info. I picked up some no-name alps clones off taobao a few weeks ago. Do you know the actuation distance on them? Seems a lot. And it's probably just the ones I picked up (I think these ones are made to be reset buttons) but they are _stiff_! As usual though with switches, it's one thing having a few of them, and another thing typing on a full keyboard of them. They and Topre switches are on my hit list of switches to try.

Offline sypl

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Re: Low travel key options
« Reply #5 on: Mon, 13 April 2015, 09:13:23 »
Cherry ML's are good IF you lube them before installing AND you have a PCB. You can use a thin sliver of oring as a shock damper for bottoming out (like the trampoline mod). They're a pain to open while in place and are not easy to plate mount, although Suka has managed to mount some in a 3D printed "plate" before, see the wing-style keyboard here: http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/my-diy-keyboard-collection-or-how-i-became-a-kb-geek-t2534.html

I like them a lot once lubed, they're somewhat like a short-throw ErgoClear with the actuation bump starting right at the top of the movement. 1.5x size and above are all stabilised to help reduce "stiction" from off-axis presses.

They're the only discrete (separate switches) short-throw option I'm aware of.

Why do they have to be in a PCB? If I stick them in a plate then according to the data sheet (http://cherrycorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/ml_cat.pdf) I should still have about 1.2mm of pin sticking out to play with. Granted, not a lot, but I think I could be creative with that.

I've seen Suka's link before. Some beautriful boards there. So creative!

Offline greath

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Re: Low travel key options
« Reply #6 on: Mon, 13 April 2015, 09:56:37 »
Have you tried cherry profile keycaps? I hate OEM profile keycaps because of the travel distance. Cherry Profile is MUCH better for this.

Offline sypl

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Re: Low travel key options
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 13 April 2015, 12:06:56 »
I would recommend "jailhouse" blues with O-rings.

The jailhouse mod takes off most of the annoying click and moves the actuation point up near the top.

After that, there is very little need to bottom out, and I think that a little shock absorbing at the bottom is a good thing. And there are always those little rubber balls, which I have never seen or felt, but which intrigue me.

I just tried this and I think I liked it! Kinda! First time round I used nickel wire and got the reduction in travel, which I loved. I also had to add TWO o-rings to get the reduction in travel after actuaction I desired. Felt kinda better and more solid than one o-ring for some reason.

But the little 'tick' was still there, because there was still some distance for the little white piece on the blue stem to move. I solved this with thicker, coated wire, and that did kill the sound, but it did something else as well: it basically turned my switch in to a low travel brown. I realise now the jolt of the white piece shifting adds to the tactile feel of the blue. Without it there's no sound (not a bad thing), but as much of a bump as a brown, which to me is like no feeling at all.

I guess the holy grail is a clear with low travel. Easiest way I imagine is to find someway to manipulate the upper switch casing such that the plunger sits lower down than normal to begin with. It'd have to happen on the two little side tabs of the plunger that touch the upper casing. I can't think of any simple, non horrendously fiddly way to do this as yet.

EDIT: May have spoken too soon. Whilst fiddling around with the switch I may have bent the leaf such that not enough tension from it was being applied to the other one. I bent it back and it now sounds shockingly silent. Lube the sliders and I'll have a switch a ninja would be proud of.
« Last Edit: Mon, 13 April 2015, 12:26:20 by sypl »

Offline sypl

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Re: Low travel key options
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 13 April 2015, 12:10:21 »
Have you tried cherry profile keycaps? I hate OEM profile keycaps because of the travel distance. Cherry Profile is MUCH better for this.

Yep, mine are cherry. These, to be exact: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z09.2.9.63.39ucoy&id=40631531466&_u=e8lap0qfb94

Offline jacobolus

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Re: Low travel key options
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 13 April 2015, 12:52:08 »
Have you tried cherry profile keycaps? I hate OEM profile keycaps because of the travel distance. Cherry Profile is MUCH better for this.
The switch travel is the same regardless of the keycap.

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Low travel key options
« Reply #10 on: Tue, 14 April 2015, 14:58:58 »
Have you tried Jailhouse Blues?

Offline Findecanor

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Re: Low travel key options
« Reply #11 on: Tue, 14 April 2015, 15:28:22 »
If you don't mind ordering a few thousand switches .... Kailh makes a low-profile version of their Cherry MX clone. It comes only in linear. 3 mm key travel. 3 mm lower height than Cherry MX.

Offline sypl

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Re: Low travel key options
« Reply #12 on: Tue, 14 April 2015, 15:38:57 »
Yep, as mentioned above, I tried the jailhouse blues. One thing I noticed is that sound comes from three areas on the blue: the white bean on the plunger, the cap hitting the plate, and the plunger hitting the upper casing on the way back up. The jailhouse mod helped me lower the actuation height and kill the noise from the bean, and o-rings prevented the caps rattling against the plate, but there was still that pesky noise from the plunger-housing collision.

But, I solved it. Introducing:

Silent Browns

Like I mentioned previously, I want to reduce travel, both before and after actuation. I also want quiet keys. I realised that the easiest way to do this is to start with the plunger in a slightly lower position, and prevent it clacking against the housing. Here's how I went about it.

What you'll need:
- a brown switch (though doesn't have to be brown - any type will do, though you'll need ghetto brown mod for blue and green switches)
- a keycap
- silicon pads (like those used on the feet of furnishings for grip and ground protection
- an o-ring or two.
97300-0

Silicon pads have adhesive backing:
97302-1

We don't actually need anything near this size though, and the pads themselves are too thick. We actually only need a sliver:
97304-2

Of which we only need a tiny rectangle's worth:
97306-3

Then we use tweezers to remove backing and stick at top of upper housing slider grooves:
97308-4

Once you've done that reassemble the switch. Chuck an o-ring or two (I prefer two for much reduced travel) on the keycap:
97310-5

And there's your finished switch. Terrible photo here, but you can just about make out the two o-rings through the keycap:
97312-6

The silicon pads in the housing push the plunger down about a milimetere causing it to actuate about as early as a jailhouse blue, without having to rig the blue plunger. They also prevent the sound from the plunger coming back up against the housing.

O-rings on the keycap serve to prevent cap hitting plate and reduce travel. Overall effect is almost no sound.

Videos coming up!

Offline sypl

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Re: Low travel key options
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 14 April 2015, 15:39:20 »
Some video comparisons against a plain cherry blue.

Here's what it sounds like on a surface:
* on-surface.mov (3918 kB - downloaded 187 times.)

And if it were floating in a plate. This way of doing it is crazy quiet.
* floating.mov (3031.8 kB - downloaded 150 times.)
« Last Edit: Tue, 14 April 2015, 15:44:46 by sypl »

Offline CPTBadAss

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Re: Low travel key options
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 14 April 2015, 15:40:34 »
Cool, that's like that trampoline mod that oobly did...or actually probably more like Dampended Cream Alps/Matias Quiet Alps. Sorry for not reading carefully :(.

Offline sypl

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Re: Low travel key options
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 14 April 2015, 16:10:24 »
Cool, that's like that trampoline mod that oobly did...or actually probably more like Dampended Cream Alps/Matias Quiet Alps. Sorry for not reading carefully :(.

Hey, no probs, and thanks for the trampoline mod link. I just tried it, and it's not bad, though I can't get it to reduce as much travel as two o-rings. And if I put in too long a piece of o-ring in there it prevents the switch from actuating (or is always actuated, in fact), as my plunger begins lower down.

Now to order 50 gateron browns and spend a looot of time fiddling around with very small pieces...