Truly Ergonomic Communication - Aug 25 2011

[Architect]

They are ready to push the manufacturing button and sent an email that this is my last chance to change my order. Prices are going up to $250 USD after August 31st (glad I got two@$150 during opportune sale times in the preorder - and I kept the faith!) It's been a tough road for them and us early adopters, but I am really looking forward to this keyboard.

[Input Nirvana]

Hasn't happened yet. Another delay.

I particularly like how the price has gone up $50 and they offer 5 days to pre-order. Why are they so big on the pre-order? Why not just crank the price after they pump out a few and the reviews are available. Now that "its" $250, that opens the door for a few other keyboards to not look so expensive. Hello Kinesis Advantage?

I know I sound highly skeptical, and that's because I am. Doesn't it sound like a take-your-money-before-we-bankrupt ploy? Maybe it's not, but it is the sketchiest way of running a legitimate business. Only on the internet in a niche market could this have gotten so far without being lynched. If they do manufacture it, probably should buy one immediately if you thing you want it, because it's a brutal market, and the likelihood of anyone staying in business is slim, let alone an obviously shaky skin-of-your-teeth operation. I'm bothered by their misleading website.

Equal time segment: Interesting ergo layout, proposed mechanical switches, programmability, some customization. Hopefully build quality will be decent or better.

I believe everything I say in this post is relevant and accurate.

[jpc]

"Early Adopters?"

That's such... optimism...

[shrap]

Gotta love marketing. If the design is solid, there's no reason why the second batch should cost more than the first. I wonder if they're going to be stubborn and refuse to sell again at the lower price.

For $250, they don't even have the "crazy ergonomic design" of Kinesis or Maltron. With those two you can look at it and believe it should cost $300. From a distance, the TE looks like a tenkeyless $25 Microsoft Natural.

[Input Nirvana]

100 mechanical switches are pretty much worth $70+ soldered into a keyboard, and the keyboard itself is worth at least $35+, so using that logic, at starting point for a mechanical switch keyboard is at least $110+. Start adding for other things such as upgraded anything (non-flat, hand built, added widgets, etc.) and overall desirability and that's where the price would be over the $110+ starting mark. $250 seems high to me, I thought the over-$150 but well under-$200 was the sweet spot, but then again I don't build ergo mechanical keyboards for a living, I buy them.

[shrap]

100 mechanical switches are pretty much worth $70+ soldered into a keyboard, and the keyboard itself is worth at least $35+, so using that logic, at starting point for a mechanical switch keyboard is at least $110+.

I think your logic is off, as there are many examples of new mechanical keyboards that cost less than $110.

[Input Nirvana]

I think your logic is off, as there are many examples of new mechanical keyboards that cost less than $110.

Really? Shows how little I know. I'm not too savy on flat keyboards, I've evolved to the next level

But, that being said, if mech boards are well under $110, then in my eyes it's getting harder to justify the $250 price tag for the imaginary TE keyboard...that just makes things worse.

EDIT---Being programmable is worth a good chunk of change though (even if they do use ancient dip switch technology), so that helps boost the price again.

[Lanx]

the biggest ergonomic draw i see against the TE that many of us have stated is that it's flat. i mean heck i've taken design cues from the TE, by incorporating a matrix layout in my second mod, but the TE, even when shipped, will be lacking.
it'll still make you "type different" if that's the case why not just get a proven kinesis then.

[Input Nirvana]

Exactly. At $150/$200 verses $300 there were considerations for the cheaper price. At $250 verses $300, not much to consider, the Kinesis is the Gold Standard. I'm trying to imagine what the TE can do that will make the $250 worth it when you can have a Kinesis for $300.

[sordna]

God, why doesn't anyone make a truly split keyboard without the staggering? Do I really have to cut up my beloved Kinesises? Why doesn't anyone put the two concepts (straight columns AND split) together?

Except this guy, only these boards are too long to put in a tented position:

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 25108[/ATTACH]

[Input Nirvana]

I never heard back both times I attempted contact. Too bad, their 'ware for the boards seems like good stuff. Maybe someday...

[sordna]

I was "so disappoint" with Kinesis too, when they introduced the Freestyle. I sent them an email, asking why whyy WHYYY did you stagger it??? Who needs another Goldtouch?

PS. Your new avatar is hilarious, please keep it!

[Input Nirvana]

I was "so disappoint" with Kinesis too, when they introduced the Freestyle. I sent them an email, asking why whyy WHYYY did you stagger it??? Who needs another Goldtouch?

I didn't understand it at first. I guess they didn't want it to be TOO different, and get some easier sales. I have a Freestyle, nice board, but I just can't do the staggering anymore.

PS. Your new avatar is hilarious, please keep it!

I already tried to delete it, but the Colonel actually SAID "Ping!" OUT LOUD! Scared the crap outta me.
He'll be staying on the wall.

[slueth]

I probably would of bought one at 150, but at 250, I think they are pushing it.

[Input Nirvana]

I probably would of bought one at 150, but at 250, I think they are pushing it.

Me too. Then again, I don't believe there is a board, or that there ever WILL be a board.

But, if there IS a board, and it's good, REALLY good, like REALLY REALLY good, it might be worth close to what they are trying to get for it. My guess is that it won't sell for that price, and it will drop to something more reasonable.

Then, six months later, they will go out of business, and Costar will make it for $150.

[Lanx]

if we look at it, TE has always played these "price games" aren't ppl tired of it already? what were some of them?
buy a board for 150

oh no we're late, here's 50 coupon

what else bs marketing have they done?

[Input Nirvana]

if we look at it, TE has always played these "price games" aren't ppl tired of it already? what were some of them?
buy a board for 150

oh no we're late, here's 50 coupon

what else bs marketing have they done?

Blatantly lying on their website.

[Oqsy]

Blatantly lying on their website.

What are you referring to specifically?  I'm not taking ussue with the statement, just out of the loop on TE lately.

[slueth]

Me too. Then again, I don't believe there is a board, or that there ever WILL be a board.

But, if there IS a board, and it's good, REALLY good, like REALLY REALLY good, it might be worth close to what they are trying to get for it. My guess is that it won't sell for that price, and it will drop to something more reasonable.

Then, six months later, they will go out of business, and Costar will make it for $150.

They have been bumping pre-order status for a while, it seems like they are sucking up money to recoup cost, who knows when they can actually afford to get it in production.  We will see in September

[Gerk]

I think they are trying to walk the edge of the highest price that people will pay for the board, citing all the design thought that went into it which makes it more boutique'ish.  If it lives up to expectations they can try and keep walking that line, but the other approach is that by the time you're done the second run or so and have a bit more confidence in the suppliers and the process (not to mention the product) and experience you drop the price a bit and cite "improvements in the process" and no one walks away angry.

Or not.

I just hope that they ship, period.  Anything after that is bonus at this point.  Lots of people are posting seemingly thinking they are "almost there" but honestly -- they are not.  They might have finalized all the bits and pieces needed and have some initial suppliers lined up but but they still need to be manufactured and there's a lot going on there.  Several kinds of housings and mouldings, keycaps, electronics, switches, cables, connectors, screws, assembly, testing, printing, packaging, etc etc ... there's a lot more to it than having a "completed" design and the test pieces in hand from suppliers and that it is looking good -- but that's a good step forward for sure.

It's a tricky game and while they may have crossed a hurdle until complete units built in production are in hand and verified to be "all that" ... well it ain't over 'till it's over.  Any one of those pieces and a dozen or more other factors that we probably don't even see can still put a kink in the chain anytime from now until the time that the units hit the street.

Now all that said, I still hope they get me on in my hands in Sep/Oct as things are alluding towards, but ... I won't be celebrating until the unit is actually in my hands.

[Arcanius]

Wait until March of next year, and you'll have a Truly Ergonomic Keyboard in your hands.
That, or a Kinesis.

[Gerk]

Wait until March of next year, and you'll have a Truly Ergonomic Keyboard in your hands.
That, or a Kinesis.

Or both :wof:

[Architect]

Here we go again ...

Code: [Select]


while ( true ) {
   print ("TE is a sham");
   print ("TE is stealing our money");
   print ("etc");
}


I wonder, just suppose for a moment that they deliver (I know this will be hard, bear with me), what will you guys do?

• Implode?
• Disappear?
• Offer a public apology for the continual defamation?

Probably not the last. The discussion will instead turn to dissing the 'boards I'm sure.

[sordna]

Architect, the main problem is the lack of credibility of the company. I personally think they WILL ship a keyboard, but apart from the continuous pushing of the date during the entire year, they put some obvious lies on their website:
1. The reviews, which are totally fake
2. The testimonials, which are totally fake
3. The claim that their keyboard is healthier than Kinesis/Maltron/Datahand, which is unsubstantiated and an outright lie

[Lanx]

Architect, the main problem is the lack of credibility of the company. I personally think they WILL ship a keyboard, but apart from the continuous pushing of the date during the entire year, they put some obvious lies on their website:
1. The reviews, which are totally fake
2. The testimonials, which are totally fake
3. The claim that their keyboard is healthier than Kinesis/Maltron/Datahand, which is unsubstantiated and an outright lie

This is pretty much why everyone has their own opinion on TE, is cause we call them out on their bull$hit. TE might be able to fool many of the laymen, some of the time, but they can't fool GeekHack, any of the time.

[jpc]

A company has never shipped a product. Random internet people say, "they might never ship something." That's defamation?

And people with pre-orders are early adopters. lol

The language on this thread is Orwellian.

[shrap]

Don't forget that Architect is the guy who posted a thread back in January 2011 listing the problems with the Kinesis and extolling the benefits of the TE. Except, of course, the TE didn't exist back then and still doesn't.

[Lanx]

Don't forget that Architect is the guy who posted a thread back in January 2011 listing the problems with the Kinesis and extolling the benefits of the TE. Except, of course, the TE didn't exist back then and still doesn't.

 
oh yea the TE Troll, i wondered why this guy spoke of TE like an unrequited love of old times. Please no more rom/coms i'm sure those of us who have to suffer through rom/coms have had enough this year.

[Input Nirvana]

Architect:
-It's not "Here we go again". It's "Here goes TE again"...can you argue that?
-I've been told something that turned out not to be true...can you blame ME for being cautious and skeptical?
-The 'company' in question has no track record (that's not a crime), no effective method of contact (that's not a crime), has not reached out other than generic form emails (that's not a crime), not honest on their website (that IS a crime) and when you add it all up....that's called a "TRACK RECORD".
-What will I do if they ship a keyboard? Check it out of course and evaluate it's positives and negatives just like every other keyboard in existence. The slams against TE are not about me or any disappointment I would have if they actually ship a board. It's about their ****ty methods of 'business' if you even want to call it that. If they were located in the U.S. they would be finished by now. Being an attorney I would have filed against them to flesh them out of hiding and see what's really going on.

One issue I have with one of your posts that has never sounded genuine is this: You shot down the Kinesis (which is fine, that doesn't bother me), which you say you've used for 10+ years. I can not replicate the issue you say you are having (that doesn't mean you're not having the issue). The TE website specifically uses the Datahand ($1000 and not available), the Maltron ($500 and somewhat hard to get), and the Kinesis ($300 and easy to get) as the footstep claiming their "imaginary board" is better. See the odd relationship I'm pointing out? Seems like a case is being made to align with and beat the Kinesis (which again would be great) but it's not based in any factual or substantiated information. TE needs transparency for any hope of legitimacy.

Sordna:
-Why do you personally think they will ship a board, even though everything cited in your post says it's a sham? I know that answer. You want them to ship a board because that's what they say they intend to do, and you believe the world is generally a nice place. No offense, but you, just like Architect, just like me, and anyone else, has zero credible information about TE and their intent or ability to produce the keyboard. That is the fact.

I WANT them to do what they said they would do. In this order: 1-Ship a board. -or- 2-Apologize and try to refund as much money as possible. -or- 3-Just shut down and go away. All facts point to either 1-scam, -or- 2-a failing business, -or-3-A weak, by the change-in-your-pocket operation, in that order.

[Lanx]

If TE didn't hold so many GH'ers money on deposit as leverage I wouldn't care if TE sank or swam, unfortunately because they have so many members of GH's money we just really want to them to succeed, cuz otherwise, they'd just chapter 11 and walk away with the pre-order money.

[Input Nirvana]

The truth of the matter is, anyone the sent money to TE is an "investor".

[Soarer]

Let's forget the delay for a moment.

Trouble now is the price - at a 10% or 20% premium over a 'standard' quality MX-based board, they could've sold an awful lot of units. At $250 they'll be lucky to sell a tenth the number. And the basic concept would be very easy to copy, by a competitor who could easily undercut that price. (It's pretty clear they wouldn't have the money to fight a patent battle, even if they had one).

[jpc]

The truth of the matter is, anyone the sent money to TE is an "investor".

The newspeak continues

[Input Nirvana]

Let's forget the delay for a moment.

Trouble now is the price - at a 10% or 20% premium over a 'standard' quality MX-based board, they could've sold an awful lot of units. At $250 they'll be lucky to sell a tenth the number. And the basic concept would be very easy to copy, by a competitor who could easily undercut that price. (It's pretty clear they wouldn't have the money to fight a patent battle, even if they had one).

I note on their website they don't show a photo of the Maltron finger layout they've copied. I'll provide it here:
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 25138[/ATTACH]

[Lanx]

just checked out their website again...
"The Truly Ergonomic Keyboard is expected to last more than 10 times longer than other ergonomic keyboards and conventional keyboards, helping you save money in unnecessary future purchases."

they're back to making crazy claims again, somehow their cherry mx, will last 10x longer than a kinesis cherry mx i guess.

they have a pic of the maltron, it's in the gallery where they say that the maltron/kinesis/datahand are only healthy while the TE is healthier.

[Input Nirvana]

I saw the 3D Maltron on their website, not the 2D. I was trying to show the closest fingering layout has been done and patented in 2D, but fortunately TE changed the layout substantially enough to probably evade that issue. I like they layout TE proposes. I can accept the delays, my issue is purely the lies, and lack of transparency.

Lanx: Why are you such a non-believer in the 10X longer lifespan of their keyboard? It's also the healthiest. I mean, they said so, right? You should consider not questioning these things, you should be more trusting. Maybe Architect can tell us the how and why, then we can send them more money  lol

Don't forget...it's all about the money. Follow the money trail. That's exactly why there is a pre-order payment. It's about the money.

PING!

[Input Nirvana]

The newspeak continues

"If there is any hope to be had at all, it lies with the Proles."

[shrap]

Doublespeak aside, I would have liked TE to succeed. There might be a market at $150 between the $100 rubber dome Goldtouch/Freestyle and the cost-is-no-object Kinesis/Maltrons. But at $250 it's too close to the latter but those companies have actual products and customers.

[hella]

I actually really like staggering.  It gives the same layout and boardfeel as a non-split keyboard.  Straight-keyed split keyboards may look better but they feel off.

[sordna]

I actually really like staggering.  It gives the same layout and boardfeel as a non-split keyboard.

... which is a bad thing. The staggering is an artifact of the pushrod typewriters, and has absolutely no usefulness today, other than "it's what people are used to until they get used to something better".

Let's post this again, to show how insane the assymetric staggering is on a split board, and what unnatural movement the hand does, especially the left hand. Why both hands veer to the *left* when reaching for the upper rows of keys, is beyond me:

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 25145[/ATTACH]

Straight-keyed split keyboards may look better but they feel off.

Which such keyboards have you tried? They feel off the first day or two, after that they feel natural and it's way easier learning to touch type on them. I can put my Kinesis behind my back and still touch type it, because of the straight columns provide a much more predictable key location. I've also done experiments with vertical keyboards, the straight columns beat zig-zag staggering hands down.

[Input Nirvana]

In spite of my 1,500 posts over 2 years and off topic items, I'm here because I'm trying to find/make the best typing solution possible (for me). This is why the vast majority of my posts are about ergo, Kinesis, Datahand, Rollermouse, Alphagrip and other closely related input devices and items relating to building/creating/modifying ergo devices. Ergo is a little different for different people as well, not much though, we're mechanically very similar. The proposed TE layout is very notable, if they don't produce it, I'll scale and make it myself for every person that wants one. We need to advance the custom controller thread so we can program the board. Then we'll name it Geekhacks Revenge".

[sordna]

I want one, provided it is truly split (movable halves). Knowing you, it's a given it will be that way :-)

Another option I'm considering is replicate something like this:

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 25150[/ATTACH]

note the hand "shelves", truly awesome!

[Input Nirvana]

I wish I could see 2 or 3 more views of his mod. It looks very interesting with him having the keywell halves pivoting off the center section with the controller board still in it. Saved him doing a lot of pointless re-working which is very nice. The only potential drawback is the inability to alter the degree of tilt and distance of separation, which is not a deal breaker by any means.

On the TE proposed layout, where would the good layout (see Architect, here I go again, saying something NICE about it) be split...it will be something like a Utron (split) or Typematrix (not split).


EDIT---I added the TE rendering and a note about it's proposed nice layout in my Split Kinesis Mod article. This should make Architect happy:


"A proposed layout that has been circulating the web for a couple years (rendering only, non-production keyboard)."
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 25155[/ATTACH]

[hyperq]

EDIT---I added the TE rendering and a note about it's proposed nice layout in my Split Kinesis Mod article. This should make Architect happy:


"A proposed layout that has been circulating the web for a couple years (rendering only, non-production keyboard)."

Show Image

I like this type of keyboard layout very much.  Lenovo, Dell, and HP should adopt it, and everyone else will follow.  Then we will finally be free from the traditional, un-ergo layout, which is originally designed for typewriters.

[Lanx]

I think it can be said that the ppl who care about mechanical/ergo are very far few and we know who those ppl are in GH, 99% of GH it seems is just happy with plain jane 104 key filco clone or 87key flico tenkeyless and the of those you have half going gaga over topre or hhk2.

Then there's like the ten of us, who actually really examine ergonomics, not the pseudo fake "mythical" ergonomics like
OH if it's not split, it's wrong
Or
Wrist pad will kill you

no we look at what ergonomics can do and work for us.

i mean there are a few of us who have examined ergonomics and used our own bodies as testing, i mean i don't want to speak for others but just recently i found out that microswitches are worse than cherry switches for me in using my mouse and found out cherry switches in mice are sublime. Who does that? what kind of person puts a cherry switch in a mouse? Someone who obseses over ergonomics and wanting to put theory to action

will my index finger hurt less if i use a cherry switch instead of the microswitch? trust me i spent weeks weighing the pro's and con's of possibly destroying a mouse i liked over testing out a theory, well no my index finger hasn't hurt ever since.

I'm not just talking about the modders and more to the point the ppl who mod just for ergonomics, but ppl who decide if this switch/ this keyboard will be right for their body.

These are the ppl who have looked at the TE, and go...

BS

[Input Nirvana]

All TE proposed items are off-the-shelf except:
1-case
2-wrist rest (optional)
3-2 or 4 keycaps
4-controller/firmware

This keyboard can be made in a week, with the exceptions of the 4 items listed above. The case (#1) and 2 or 4 keys (#3) can easily be improvised depending on how much someone wants to spend (Shapeways?). The controller (#4) it will depend on what features someone wants (HumbleHacker, Hasu?). So if people want a 90% TE board, we can make it. For gods sake, the damn thing is FLAT! Have switches from Mouser plate-mounted (or even switches TE did not propose), custom keycaps from WASD Keyboards, get the controller from one of the sources (with NO dip switches), and hand wire the thing like an $800 Maltron.

Then, TE can go screw themselves instead of screwing all of us. And if TE is really a legit company, they can come out of hiding and stop us.

Seriously, if anyone wants one of those things, contact me. If there are 10 boards we can get a good price on materials. "Geekhacks Revenge" will be sweet, sweet revenge.

PING!

[Oqsy]

What ping!?!???

[Input Nirvana]

Hey, it's a ping-a-bration!

You got a purty Ping! there Oqsy...

[Sam]

Seriously, if anyone wants one of those things, contact me. If there are 10 boards we can get a good price on materials. "Geekhacks Revenge" will be sweet, sweet revenge.

I actually would be quite interested in something like this, and probably have a lot of resources to help out.  The only problem is I'm completely swamped with my work at the moment and haven't had any time in months to work on my keyboard project I've started on my own.  Best of luck to you if you do decide to do something, and I'd certainly be up for buying at least one of the boards.  As you say, this isn't something terribly difficult to make for someone with the expertise.  If I was personally making a TE style board as an honest-to-goodness business and not just a hobby, I'd estimate I could probably have the thing designed and some working samples to beta test in under a month.  With full production within three months.  Not years as it's taken TE.  So what if the first production isn't perfect.  The people that want to use a TE are ones who want it for the ergonomics, not for looking pretty.  I couldn't care less if the case design was rough, or if it had a few minor problems, provided it allowed me to test out the ergonomic concept that they've proposed.  If you're designing something for the mass market, you have to take the time to get it as close to perfect as possible, or you'll get shot down immediately in the reviews.  Designing something like this for a niche market doesn't need such perfection.

[bpiphany]

I've been playing around with KiCAD today just for fun. I made a spreadsheet to define the coordinates and rotation of the switches. Of course it needs some more work but it wouldn't be too horrible to get it right I think. This is the result so far. If a split board is desired the PCB could probably be designed to be "flipable" to allow for two identical PCBs for the left and right part, cutting costs further.

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 25175[/ATTACH]

[Keymonger]

You know what's funny, now that it looks like this thing is about to ship, I've lost interest because I'm working on a keyboard design myself. I don't regret the pre-order though but if it was $250 from the start I would've gotten the Kinesis Advantage instead.

[Input Nirvana]

You know what's funny, now that it looks like this thing is about to ship, I've lost interest because I'm working on a keyboard design myself. I don't regret the pre-order though but if it was $250 from the start I would've gotten the Kinesis Advantage instead.

Keymonger, I really have to poke you for some fun right now, ok?
Here it goes:
"Looks like this thing is about to ship" Please, please, PLEASE post something in response to that statement Really? Looks like it's going to ship? Come on, have a laugh and throw something out in addition to that statement, I just CAN'T let is sit out there!

Sounds like there should be a group buy for "Geekhacks Revenge" other forums make their own boards, why not? Start a wiki project page to go along with the custom controller project?

[Gerk]

It's this kind of customer support for new ergonomic keyboard startups that illustrates just how dead the ergonomic keyboard market is.

Anyway it should ping at least a bit.  It uses Cherry MX switches.

Yep no kidding.  

See my sig line:  "It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping!"  (sorry Duke for ripping you off, but it was just too good to not use)

[Input Nirvana]

We'll have Ping! built into the spec, so people can complain if it DOESN'T Ping!

NOTE-The correct use of and notation of "Ping!" is only below:
 
Ping!  

Capital P, it's a proper noun on GH regardless of usage, and to be followed by an exclamation point, as that's part of the proper noun. Ex: (How the Ping! did Rapster know that?)

[Gerk]

Signature corrected

[Input Nirvana]

Thanks, I had to make a couple corrections myself (Ping! Nirvana and Ping!, California)

Whew! That was close, don't wanna get reported.

[Input Nirvana]

I've been playing around with KiCAD today just for fun. I made a spreadsheet to define the coordinates and rotation of the switches. Of course it needs some more work but it wouldn't be too horrible to get it right I think. This is the result so far. If a split board is desired the PCB could probably be designed to be "flipable" to allow for two identical PCBs for the left and right part, cutting costs further.

(Attachment Link) 25175[/ATTACH]

Nice. I'm waiting to see if a few people want to do this thing. It won't happen tomorrow, but we can lay a foundation, spell out the intent, email the link to TE immediately.

[Input Nirvana]

Razer immediately rejects any and all product suggestions for legal IP reasons.

Wise policy on their part. I have nothing to suggest to TE at this point. I'm digging the idea of spending a couple hours setting up a "copy" framework with a sales price of $149 and having the link emailed to them.

The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.

That would be suicide. Why not kill the *******s that come to us with their lies, bad intent, and misplaced priorities? I know I want to.

[hoggy]

All TE proposed items are off-the-shelf except:
1-case
2-wrist rest (optional)
3-2 or 4 keycaps
4-controller/firmware

This keyboard can be made in a week, with the exceptions of the 4 items listed above. The case (#1) and 2 or 4 keys (#3) can easily be improvised depending on how much someone wants to spend (Shapeways?). The controller (#4) it will depend on what features someone wants (HumbleHacker, Hasu?). So if people want a 90% TE board, we can make it. For gods sake, the damn thing is FLAT! Have switches from Mouser plate-mounted (or even switches TE did not propose), custom keycaps from WASD Keyboards, get the controller from one of the sources (with NO dip switches), and hand wire the thing like an $800 Maltron.

Then, TE can go screw themselves instead of screwing all of us. And if TE is really a legit company, they can come out of hiding and stop us.

Seriously, if anyone wants one of those things, contact me. If there are 10 boards we can get a good price on materials. "Geekhacks Revenge" will be sweet, sweet revenge.

PING!

Count me in.


You know, - if I wanted buy a TE, I'd rather wait until I could buy a second hand one.

[Input Nirvana]

Count me in.


You know, - if I wanted buy a TE, I'd rather wait until I could buy a second hand one.

At $250 for something that seems overpriced, and is an unknown, I agree.

Everyone, correct me if I'm wrong. The only items that are specific to the proposed TE, is the case, the 2 'chevron' shaped keys in the middle, maybe the 2 spacebars, and the controller/firmware.


NEED TO CONFIRM:
1-identify profiles of each keycap and quantity of each
*2-any custom keycap and possible replacements
3-decide on number of key layout (2 choices)
4-scale the proposed layout for replication
*5-consider case (how many do we need for a good price from Shapeways or equivalent?)
*6-consider controller (our GH custom controller project needs to proceed)
7-plate mounting (non-issue)
8-hand wire (non-issue)  

*= possibly different than the TE proposed board.

[sordna]

I've been playing around with KiCAD today just for fun. I made a spreadsheet to define the coordinates and rotation of the switches. Of course it needs some more work but it wouldn't be too horrible to get it right I think. This is the result so far. If a split board is desired the PCB could probably be designed to be "flipable" to allow for two identical PCBs for the left and right part, cutting costs further.

(Attachment Link) 25175[/ATTACH]

Hold it right there, please make the columns standard, the rightmost column of the left hand should be 5TGB and the leftmost column of the right hand should be 6YHN, just like it is on the Kinesis, Maltron, TE, and TypeMatrix. It's no accident all straight column keyboards have this layout, let's not deviate from it. You not only put 6,Y,H on the left hand instead of the right (contrary to touch-typing protocol), the bottom row is off too, you put Z under S and V under G. It should be Z under A and B under G.

[sordna]

It's this kind of customer support for new ergonomic keyboard startups that illustrates just how dead the ergonomic keyboard market is.

You can't judge the ergo market by just one company. Look at Kinesis, I asked them about the possibility of making me a red mx keyboard, and they decided to make it a standard model. Not only that, I sent them the proposal in March, and had the actual keyboard in my hands in May. Not only that, the CEO of the company stepped in to contact me, thank me for the idea, and get everything lined up. How is that for customer support?

[Input Nirvana]

You can't judge the ergo market by just one company. Look at Kinesis, I asked them about the possibility of making me a red mx keyboard, and they decided to make it a standard model. Not only that, I sent them the proposal in March, and had the actual keyboard in my hands in May. Not only that, the CEO of the company stepped in to contact me, thank me for the idea, and get everything lined up. How is that for customer support?

Dang!
All I got was this lousy keyboard.

[iMav]

With every monthly communication, they push the shipping date out farther.  Since July's communication stated that they would ship the end of August, this communication represents another delay (announcing they are ready to start production).  

I have stuck with my pre-order and do hope it ships soon.  I certainly don't think it will supplant my Kinesis Advantage, but I am really curious to see how they turn out.

For completeness sake, here is the actual August communication:  

Manufacturing phase

We have finalized all steps involved in manufacturing the Truly Ergonomic Keyboard in accordance with our design specifications.

As a result, we are happy to announce that we are about to manufacture your Truly Ergonomic Keyboard and that delivery will follow soon after.

Additional pre-orders

We continue to accept pre-orders until August 31st with the reduced price of $199 USD/CAD dollars or €149 euros.

The MSRP of $249 USD/CAD dollars or €179 euros will become effective after August 31st, 2011.

The Truly Ergonomic Keyboard is priced in line with its quality and specifications: a unique split–symmetric columnar key arrangement; a design which embraces the symmetric shape and neutral position of the human body; it is manufactured using gold-plated Cherry MX mechanical keyswitches; reprogrammable in firmware; the palmrest is cushioned and removable; it is truly comfortable; and it is Windows, Mac, and Linux compatible.

We estimate we will start accepting standard orders October 2011.

Blog

We created a new post in our Blog with the above information: http://www.trulyergonomic.com/blog.html#Tooling

Model change request

If for any reason you wish to change the Model you pre-ordered, simply reply to this email with the specifications of the Model you prefer:
 - Model 104, 105, or 109.
 - English US QWERTY, English International, or Blank Layout.
 - Silent (MX Brown) keyswitches or Light-click-sound (MX Blue) keyswitches.

There is no need for you to reply to this email to confirm your order. Reply only if you wish to change your pre-ordered model at no additional cost.

Delivery Address

We will send you and additional email to verify your delivery address information.

We thank you very much for your support during our pre-order manufacturing phase.

Regards,

The Truly Ergonomic team

[Input Nirvana]

A little transparency would go a long way, instead of a pat email.

"Geekhacks Revenge" will have a ship date soon as a few people jump in and put it together. We have WASD Keyboards, and some pretty good resources right here.

[Gerk]

With every monthly communication, they push the shipping date out farther.  Since July's communication stated that they would ship the end of August, this communication represents another delay (announcing they are ready to start production).  

I have stuck with my pre-order and do hope it ships soon.  I certainly don't think it will supplant my Kinesis Advantage, but I am really curious to see how they turn out.

Except with this communication they haven't said anything (at least directly) about when they expect to ship.  They infer that Oct is when they hope to have the production models in hand to take "regular" orders ... all of the previous emails (I've been around long enough now to have gotten 5-6 of them) have clearly stated "we expect to ship pre-orders ______" and given a specific month.  This time they have said nothing at all in that regard, at least not straight out.  Why, who knows?  Maybe they are tired of falsely predicting ship dates or they think they are jinxed because whenever they announce one they never hit their mark.

I'm in the same boat as you iMav, I stuck with my pre-order and I hope it ships soon.  I have an Advantage on the way too and I don't imagine that the TE will win for my needs ... but I've stuck it out this long and it's not like I don't have any other keyboards lying around doing nothing LOL ... the TE may join them once (if?) it arrives, or it may find a home on one of my other computer setups.

[Gerk]

A little transparency would go a long way, instead of a pat email.

"Geekhacks Revenge" will have a ship date soon as a few people jump in and put it together. We have WASD Keyboards, and some pretty good resources right here.

If we make it a split (i.e. 2 distinct pieces, not just the key layout), tent-able and non-staggered count me in for at least one

[Input Nirvana]

And...it doesn't matter if they quote a date since it has no relevance. And THAT my friends, is their fault.

My business works under contract. If we miss a date, I suffer liquidated damages. Maybe now you can see why this irritates me so much. And I didn't even buy a proposed board!

[Sam]

If we make it a split (i.e. 2 distinct pieces, not just the key layout), tent-able and non-staggered count me in for at least one

I would also very much like a 2-piece board, rather than a single piece.  I'd be in with either design, but to me having it be 2-piece is a huge, huge advantage.  It increases it's adjustability by magnitude.  I've never tried a tent-able board, so don't really have an opinion on that.  Not sure what you're referring to with "non-staggered" as that could mean very different things if you're referring non-staggered along the columns, or along the rows, or both.  I must have non-staggered along the columns (TE style), vs standard keyboards which are staggered along the columns.  Along the row, I don't care, either TE style (staggered), or a matrix style (non-staggered).

I would hope that there would be a choice of switches as well, with a mechanical tactile switch being one of the choices (such as Cherry Blues).  If it has Cherries, but not Blues, I'm probably not very interested, or perhaps if it came unpopulated, and I add the Blues myself.

Being these posts are buried in the TE thread, maybe it's time to start a new thread about this, to better gauge interest?  There's probably a lot of GH'ers who haven't even read this thread but would be interested.  Maybe a thread in the Group Buys with a new thread here linking to it?

[Input Nirvana]

Hi Sam!

Yes, it should be in a specific thread, but I think the controller/firmware issue needs to have a solid suggestion/direction/option, or it's dead in the water before it starts. We have a custom controller thread that will be converted to a wiki project once we come up with a good title that is web-searchable. One drawback (I'm giving myself way too much credit here) is that I'm not the person to make the firmware...I can't even contribute to the programming. I just know I want it to be as good as a Kinesis and add a couple features. But I still can't do it unless I can learn in the next 6 months somehow (I'm willing).

I want to spearhead this, but I'll admit my connections pale in comparison to the skills and connections others on this forum have access to. I can do it, but it will be 10 times easier and faster if someone else were the pointman for the controller/firmware. I have a high degree of interest, but I will be the one holding up the project if I'm responsible for the outcome of the programming feature.

[Sam]

I totally understand where you're coming from.  My only thought though is that if you get it into a new thread ASAP where it's very visible, then you may get people reading about it that could help you out, but who might not even know about it if it stays hidden in this thread.  Even if it dies before getting started, no harm done.  At least if more of the GH community read about it, it'll have a better chance of being revived in the future when someone(s) does come along with the expertise, time, and motivation to help out with the areas you cannot do yourself.

Also if you get more people interested in using such a keyboard, by getting the word out to more of the GH community, it might do more to spark interest in those who are technically capable of making it happen.  Not many would want to spend a lot of time to develop something that only a few people are interested in.  If a hundred people though are interested in it, the chances of someone being willing to devote their time to the project increases.

[Input Nirvana]

As always, you make too much sense Sam.

[hoggy]

Here's another keyboard that looks like a TE...
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 25270[/ATTACH]
Edit: It's an ergo diver and no longer available

[Input Nirvana]

Mechanical? Programmable?
How much?

[Sam]

I found this regarding that board.

[slueth]

Its not mechanical.

[sordna]

I found this regarding that board.

Not impressed by the layout. TE seems much better. There's also the Datadesk Smartboard:



which I tried and didn't like at all.

[Input Nirvana]

There is another keyboard split design that is matrix-style on the right and staggered on the left. It escapes me now though. Seems very odd to me.

We just need to make the framework (custom programmable controller!) and anything else is easy.

[hoggy]

Sorry, should have posted the name...  Layout's good though.  Shame it's not sold anymore.

[hoggy]

There is another keyboard split design that is matrix-style on the right and staggered on the left. It escapes me now though. Seems very odd to me.

We just need to make the framework (custom programmable controller!) and anything else is easy.

Yogitype?

[sam_vimes]

Hi,

I'm waiting for 5 month now the release of the TE.
I didn't buy it yet, I was waiting for reviews.

Do you think I should not buy it (yet, at least)?

My hands are hurting so I really need a good keyboard (and mouse, but I will take care of this later). I've never had one, always laptops.
I'm a little afraid be the kinesis (price and design), I'm not sure the typematrix is really ergonomic. The TE seemed perfect to me (but the full price is really high).

So I don't know.
Any advice?

[Deofol]

If you want to get into ergo cheap, I would say just get a "Microsoft Natural Ergo Keyboard 4000". You can get them from around $35 on Amazon, and they work well enough (at least much better than a laptop), and would at least ease any pain you are currently having.

Then when the TE is released and you find the reviews satisfactory, then dive in. Or do both and just preorder now at the cheaper price, and cancel later if it goes south.

Its all a gamble, but at $35, I know the MS keyboard is a winner.

[sordna]

The TE is at $200 now, so the difference will only be $50 after the end of the month. It's not clear when the keyboard will ship, probably not before October. For $50 it would be worth to wait for the reviews, and avoid any risk about the keyboard not shipping, or shipping many months from now, or turning out to have problems. Frankly I would be worried to give out money to a company without a shipping product, and without an address, or phone number information. All they have is a bad track record regarding their communication, and fake reviews/testimonials on their website.

If you are in a hurry and want to save money, you could buy a used Kinesis, for example Input Nirvana has several for sale at $100 and up. Otherwise I would wait for actual TE reviews.

[redpill]

Yep I'm definitely content for someone else to be a guinea pig on this one.

[shrap]

TE does claim to have a 30-day money back guarantee from the date of delivery on their site.

However if the pre-orders are charged now and not at the date of shipping, you may lose the ability to leverage your credit card company to file a chargeback since too much time has passed.

[Lanx]

Hi,

I'm waiting for 5 month now the release of the TE.
I didn't buy it yet, I was waiting for reviews.

Do you think I should not buy it (yet, at least)?

My hands are hurting so I really need a good keyboard (and mouse, but I will take care of this later). I've never had one, always laptops.
I'm a little afraid be the kinesis (price and design), I'm not sure the typematrix is really ergonomic. The TE seemed perfect to me (but the full price is really high).

So I don't know.
Any advice?

imo, if your hurting now, stop that pain! trying to save money cannot save your joints no matter how old you are or how long you are using a keyboard that seemingly hurts you. Yes this sounds like a salesman scare tactic to buy now, but of course no one is selling anything here.
like many said if you want a good non mechanical keyboard, the microsoft ergo 4k is great.

if you really want a mechanical (and the benefits of mechanical vs. rubber dome) and you want ergonomic, tho i have no personal experience, i'd still just go ahead and recommend getting a kinesis, even though you'd have to learn how to type differently.

again no amount of money saving will help create more cartilage or lessen your RSI/carpal tunnel, you have to act now.

[jpc]

My hands are hurting so I really need a good keyboard (and mouse, but I will take care of this later). I've never had one, always laptops.
I'm a little afraid be the kinesis (price and design), I'm not sure the typematrix is really ergonomic. The TE seemed perfect to me (but the full price is really high).

So I don't know.
Any advice?

You sound like me last year. I thought that one new device would fix my hands.

lol -- I went through a LOT of input devices. And got better

Your hands need to last the rest of your life. Don't f*** around, fix your ergonomics right away. You don't have time to wait for vaporware like the TE, you may be injuring yourself more every day. If your hands hurt after two days without using the computer, you need a doctor immediately.

This is what worked for me...

Lifestyle:
 * Reduced coffee intake modestly.
 * Reduced computer use outside of work modestly.
 * Quit my awful job, got a much better one. I am still programming, just not at an insane stress level.
 * I'm less of a perfectionist. F*** up now and then and relax about it

Work habits:
 * Learned to touch type
 * Learned Colemak layout
 * I use the phone more and email less
 * Learned keyboard shortcuts. On UNIX I use the *awesome* window manager, which allows total keyboard control.

Medical:
 * Saw a Dr., he gave me two weeks of an NSAID and wrist braces to wear at night. Both helped. I still use the braces.
 * "The Mindbody Prescription" by John Sarno. Explains how psychological factors can cause pain and how you can remedy this. If you are stressed and angry a lot, read it.

Hardware:
 * Keyboard trays: you gotta be at the right height. Most desks are too high.
 * Kinesis Contoured: awesome keyboard, and a great way to learn how to touch type using the correct finger for each key. My daily drivers. You can get clean used ones for $100-ish.
 * Seat: found supportive, adjustable chairs.
 * Trackballs: the KEM and m570 are good.
 * The Contour Rollermouse is very good, I'll probably buy a 2nd.
 * Switches: Low force helps; 40-50g switches are easier than 65-80g switches like buckling springs. The Kinesis uses cherry browns, they are 45g with just enough tactility -- very comfy.

Things that DID NOT HELP AT ALL:
 * Model M SSKs. Yes the mouse is a few cm closer but you're still whacking on stiff switches. Shares the design flaws of any flat, staggered, rectangular board.
 * Siig Minitouch. Like Model M SSKs but with even worse switches (XMs.)
 * Alternate hand mousing. My left hand hurt soon after switching to it.
 * CST trackball. It's wrist-rest-resistant, the ball is heavy, the buttons are heavy, the scroll wheel has a bad location.
 * QWERTY hunt-and-peck encourages you to hit the keyboard too hard, with large muscle movements. (Touch typing on Colemak is night-and-day different: it's all small muscle movements, low impact, and as low force as your switches allow.)

It's worth the effort. The sun will rise one day and you won't be thinking about pain!!

[hoggy]

sam_vines -

Some good advice from jpc there.

Take frequent breaks - drinking more water will create natural breaks.
Take control of your desk at work (having control will make you feel better - buy your own stuff)
 get several new keyboards (we'll help you pick - the kinesis advantage is worth trying)
 get several new mice - there are a few vertical mice out there you might want to try
 swap often once you've got used to the device.
If you play games - just stop for a while.
Reuse more of your work - I program for a living so I now most of my programming is copy and paste from my code library and a bit of plumbing to get it to work.
Macros - no one cares if you type (or not) to get the job done.  Learn either autohotkey or macro express.

jpc - I started with the wrist braces, but now I use kinesio tape - does much of the same work without restricting the movement of the joint.  Of course everybody's different.  The best thing about the braces is that people take your condition seriously - otherwise it could be a case of "well, you look okay..."

[jpc]

I'll second all of that. Buying my own gear for work was a smart move-- this gives you the flexibility to move it between home and work, and to sell it.

[sam_vimes]

Hi,

Thanks for all these advices.

(I forgot to say it last time, but please, excuse my english, I'm french)

Deofol :
The microsoft Natural Ergo Keyboard 4000 doesn't seem really good. The key for the left hands are not placed correctly (like almost every keyboard...)

sordna :
You're right, I won't buy it now. I didn't for these last 5 month, I shouldn't surrender now!^^
I looked at the keyboard of Input Nirvana, I need more thinking.

Lanx :
For now, it doesn't hurt that much, if it start to hurt (not every day), I need to take many little breaks and this is better. Actually, it doesn't hurt since I came back for my holidays but I prefer prevention. I don't have the carpal tunnel syndrome, it looks more like tendonitis
And yes I'm young and don't have a lot of money
I never had a mechanical neither tried one so I don't now and I don't want to spend money if it's not useful.

jpc and hoggy
Does tea can be wrong?
I would like to learn the bépo, it's like dvorak (or colemak) for french people. But I would like to learn it on my own keyboard, a good one.
Actually, I will modify the bépo because it's not make for programming people (or for those you write english sometimes).
I will see a Doctor, you're right, it might help and will read "The Mindbody Prescription", it can't hurt (I hope! ^^)

I know that my desk is too high - or I'm too short - (and my screen too low, I work on a macbook...) and if I still work at my current job in two month I will buy a good chair. I really can't invest money if I loose my job.
I can't find what is KEM.

I'm really interest in vertical mice, it seems to be more natural.

I would reuse my code if could do it but for now it's not : I'm just starting and do things without relation.

The kinesis seems to be really good. All the kinesis are programmable, right?
Is it designed for people with big hands?
I'm a girl and small so...

No one talk about the typematrix it's not a good one? (it has good reputation in the bépo community)

Anyway, thank you very much for your answers.

[kps]

* Trackballs: the KEM and m570 are good.

What's a KEM trackball? Google is unhelpful.

[jpc]

Some Kinesis are programmable, not all. I have a programmable Kinesis and a non-programmable one. I map everything in software, so they each work just as well.

Yes, KEM is Kensington Expert Mouse.

Welcome to Geekhack!

[jpc]

In moderation, I don't think coffee or tea are a problem.

[kps]

Some Kinesis are programmable, not all. I have a programmable Kinesis and a non-programmable one.

Non-programmable Kinesiseses can be made programmable with the insertion of a 60¢ EEPROM.

Yes, KEM is Kensington Expert Mouse.

Thanks. I tried an ADB one long ago, but never got the hang of it. Maybe I'll dig it out and try again.

[sordna]

I think the Essential is the only one not programmable. The others I know of: Model 110/120/130, Ergo Elan, Classic, Professional (PS/2), and all of the USB ones (Advantage, Advantage Pro, Advantage LF) are programmable.

[jpc]

Thanks. I tried an ADB one long ago, but never got the hang of it. Maybe I'll dig it out and try again.

Oh! There are more than one product called the Kensington Expert Mouse. There's the v5 (older, beige, available in ADB or serial or PS2) and the v7 (newer, dark gray, USB)

I have the v7.

[shrap]

You can't be too picky when it comes to ergonomic devices, nothing is every going to be perfect.

Sometimes it is clearly better. Sometimes your body can adjust. Sometimes the new thing is worse. But at least you're trying something and not doing the same thing hoping it will "go away". Cause it will not.

[Gerk]

If you're not already using one for your macbook you should consider something like the M-Stand or a similar type stand (there are a lot of them like this), or at least get your macboook up to a good height when you are using it.

http://raindesigninc.com/mstand.html

[sordna]

Cardboard box or copy paper works fine to prop a laptop. Anything you can do to have the screen high enough, and a real keyboard low enough will be a huge ergonomic improvement.

[Gerk]

Also even if your desk is not the right height, adjust your chair to match the height of the desk for typing.

[hoggy]

Tea is the perfect keyboard accessory... I get on quite well with Earl Grey and Chai.

I've tried a typematrix - the idea is good - moving the modifiers to the middle is good, but it's quite a change.  The kinesis advantage beats it soundly.

[shrap]

Also even if your desk is not the right height, adjust your chair to match the height of the desk for typing.

If your feet end up off the floor, get a sturdy box, reams of paper, or styrofoam to rest your feet so you can reduce the pressure on your hamstrings.

[Input Nirvana]

Non-programmable Kinesiseses can be made programmable with the insertion of a 60¢ EEPROM.

Is there a solid source for these that is easy to deal with and priced competitively that I can list in the wiki? I already have too many, but it could be very helpful in the future.

[hella]

I'm a registered nurse in California and I've got a bachelors of science in Kinesiology.  I've done quite a few papers on keyboard and desk ergonomics.

I have to say the kinesis advantage and any split keyboard better promote anatomical alignment than the truly ergonomic keyboard.

In terms of their "healthier healthiest" chart I'd place the advantage slightly above the microsoft ergonomic keyboard in terms of "healthyness" (which isn't even defined).

[rantenki]

All TE proposed items are off-the-shelf except:
1-case
2-wrist rest (optional)
3-2 or 4 keycaps
4-controller/firmware

This keyboard can be made in a week, with the exceptions of the 4 items listed above. The case (#1) and 2 or 4 keys (#3) can easily be improvised depending on how much someone wants to spend (Shapeways?). The controller (#4) it will depend on what features someone wants (HumbleHacker, Hasu?). So if people want a 90% TE board, we can make it. For gods sake, the damn thing is FLAT! Have switches from Mouser plate-mounted (or even switches TE did not propose), custom keycaps from WASD Keyboards, get the controller from one of the sources (with NO dip switches), and hand wire the thing like an $800 Maltron.

Then, TE can go screw themselves instead of screwing all of us. And if TE is really a legit company, they can come out of hiding and stop us.

Seriously, if anyone wants one of those things, contact me. If there are 10 boards we can get a good price on materials. "Geekhacks Revenge" will be sweet, sweet revenge.

PING!

 
I have:
 - 3d printer
 - CNC router
 - PCB router
 - EDA/CAD capabilities

I spent quite a while looking at making a custom keyboard, and then I got my Kinesis Advantage and stopped caring

Seriously though, if somebody else does the electronics and mechanical design, I'll help with protos.

[Input Nirvana]

I'm with ya brotha! The Advantage makes a lot of other things into non-issues, right? I'm finding out that most people with Advantages feel that same way but just don't say much because they are at close to 100% and why beat a dead horse? Typically not a very vocal, strong supporting group. They got what they need and that's it. Probably why Sordna and myself are relatively vocal is because we aren't satisfied and want to improve the Advantage. (Sordna=Kinesis adding red cherry switches)

I would like to do a couple things:
1-Cost analysis and see if we can make a close TE copy and have it in peoples hands for under $200.
2-Flexible design to offer it as a split (2 halves keyboard with a cable between)

There needs to be a concerted effort on the electronics side. I will collect the several current threads, and the several past projects and link it all on the one thread I re-started. We need a name and wiki conversion. That's important, then perhaps some effort into establishing a workflow with periodic goals. I have a couple Kinesis main boards we can use as well.

[Lanx]

hopefully this is the last "bait" that TE will do, to you guys here's the website

We are no longer accepting pre-orders for the Truly Ergonomic Keyboard. Pre-orders closed August 31, 2011.

We have finalized all steps involved in manufacturing the Truly Ergonomic Keyboard in accordance with our design specifications. As a result, we are happy to announce that we are manufacturing the Truly Ergonomic Keyboard and that delivery of pre-orders will follow soon after.

We will start accepting standard orders during October 2011.

[jpc]

OBLIGATORY JUXTAPOSITION

But hey, newer is better.

[sordna]

Ok, the last bait they threw is going to be tempting, cherry MX reds:

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 25499[/ATTACH]

[keyboardlover]

That layout is ca-ray-zay!

Where the hell are home and end on it? That'd drive me nuts.

Edit: nvm just found them. Seems like doing ctrl-shift + home/end would be awkward. I do that a lot.

[Input Nirvana]

I'm still curious about an anticipated DELIVERY DATE. If they ship, and a couple of you gutsy guys do reviews, pics, and maybe a teardown? I'm still in on a copy that we build as a Geekhack Revenge at a much more reasonable cost, and a second that we do as a split version at the same much more reasonable cost.

[Lanx]

the TE always seemed like a board the "maker" would like and not really meant for mass production.

[Keymonger]

Of all the designs I can think of, the TE design seems to be the only one that stands a chance against the status quo. It's radical without being too radical.

[Input Nirvana]

Let's copy it

[JBert]

Edit: nvm just found them. Seems like doing ctrl-shift + home/end would be awkward. I do that a lot.

Well, the right control and shift are still one above the other so you should be able to press them with your right hand, after which you can simply press home/end.

[rantenki]

I'm with ya brotha! The Advantage makes a lot of other things into non-issues, right? I'm finding out that most people with Advantages feel that same way but just don't say much because they are at close to 100% and why beat a dead horse? Typically not a very vocal, strong supporting group. They got what they need and that's it. Probably why Sordna and myself are relatively vocal is because we aren't satisfied and want to improve the Advantage. (Sordna=Kinesis adding red cherry switches)

I would like to do a couple things:
1-Cost analysis and see if we can make a close TE copy and have it in peoples hands for under $200.
2-Flexible design to offer it as a split (2 halves keyboard with a cable between)

There needs to be a concerted effort on the electronics side. I will collect the several current threads, and the several past projects and link it all on the one thread I re-started. We need a name and wiki conversion. That's important, then perhaps some effort into establishing a workflow with periodic goals. I have a couple Kinesis main boards we can use as well.

I have a short list too:
 1. Function/Escape that don't suck. I mean, they did everything so nicely for the main keys, then ****ty membrane micro-buttons for Escape and F1-12? Who decided THAT was a good idea?
 2. IBM M15 style adjustable angle. I'm 6'1" with long arms, and I feel like my wrists are doing the ulnar deviation thing unless I jam my elbows together.

Actually, both of these could be retrofitted on the Kinesis fairly easily, but in both cases, again, not bad enough to make me jump on it.

[Input Nirvana]

I have a short list too:
 1. Function/Escape that don't suck. I mean, they did everything so nicely for the main keys, then ****ty membrane micro-buttons for Escape and F1-12? Who decided THAT was a good idea?
 2. IBM M15 style adjustable angle. I'm 6'1" with long arms, and I feel like my wrists are doing the ulnar deviation thing unless I jam my elbows together.

Actually, both of these could be retrofitted on the Kinesis fairly easily, but in both cases, again, not bad enough to make me jump on it.

I changed out the weenie rubber F-keys with regular cherry browns on my split mod. It's normal now. Have 6 on the left and 6 on the right. The remaining 6 are being placed down by the thumb clusters.

M15 adjustable? Getting that type of joint may be a problem, but there is a U-joint that will work, just not look as smooth.

You can see examples of both of these on my kinesis split mod in my sig.