Author Topic: 3D Printing  (Read 4314 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Sagii

  • Time to bust some nails
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 322
  • Location: Norway
3D Printing
« on: Tue, 06 May 2014, 06:13:15 »
So, I was thinking.. has anyone tried making keycaps with 3D printers yet? I mean.. It has to be perfect for the job.. many printers use ABS plastic even! Just make a design, start the printer, and half an hour later, voila.. you've got yourself your very own homemade keycap!

EDIT: Sorry, I shoulda done some more digging before posting this.. I realise there are some threads both on deskthority and GH >_> Anyways, it seems like a reaaaaally cool concept!

EDIT2: And what's cool is that there is at least one (that I know of) printer that is actually affordable! (300 bucks)
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/m3d/the-micro-the-first-truly-consumer-3d-printer
« Last Edit: Tue, 06 May 2014, 06:48:07 by Sagii »

Offline gir489

  • Posts: 37
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #1 on: Tue, 06 May 2014, 12:48:04 »
The problem I've heard with 1st hand users of 3D printers in the industry, is that they'll never be as good as molded plastic. My friend started GateKeeper, a startup company for an idea he had in an EE class and he told me about in 2009 when we used to cheat on TF2 together. Basically a lot of the plastic-related problems, like SnR-ratio fluctuation, structural weaknesses, signal flooding will all be solved when they actually move to molded plastic. He says he's basically just using the 3D printer to show people a demo when he's trying to make a case for his kickstarter, about what the finsihed product might look like. But that in no way would he have 20 3D printers working around the clock to make a production build.

For a quick #gottahaveitnow fix for a key, I'd say, maybe? But for a perm replacement, I'd say 100% no. Get a molded one. They're superior in every way.
« Last Edit: Tue, 06 May 2014, 12:58:23 by gir489 »

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 07 May 2014, 04:36:31 »
Some GHers have made 3D printed caps, but the quality isn't really great. IIRC, suka (who posts both here and on Deskthority) has made a bunch of things, from DIY keyboard case designs to caps, but he actually works for a place that does 3D printing, so he has access to some cool stuff: http://deskthority.net/post116064.html#p116064

I don't really get the hype about 3D printers, though. This is much more exciting for me: http://www.pocketnc.com/products/

3D printers are fine for very rough prototyping, but IMHO a CNC machine is much more worthwhile. Similar movement mechanics, but with a spindle instead of a nozzle. Instead of adding material, you mill it away. Makes for much stronger end products and you can make molds very accurately if you want to do a production run of something.

From what I have heard, the PocketNC should sell for around $3000 dollars. Sure, it's more than many 3D printers, but it's far more accurate and can produce much more detailed and stronger parts from more materials.

I'm slowly collecting the parts for my own DIY CNC machine. I reckon it'll cost me in the region of $2500 just in parts, but it should be capable of VERY good accuracy and it'll be able to make large parts, too.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline Sagii

  • Time to bust some nails
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 322
  • Location: Norway
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 07 May 2014, 05:04:29 »
Dang... It is kinda interesting though. It'll be fun seeing where these things end up. I mean, in 3-4 decades we might see 3D printers and stuff as everyday household objects!

And the pocket NC, I couldn't really find much info about it? Not videos at least, haven't got time to really dig right now x) What exactly is it? Basically a drill removing material form a "block"? Just like if you attach a piece of wood to a horizontal spinning pin which you then use different tools to "carve" out the wood? (got absolutely no clue what those types of benches are called in english)
« Last Edit: Wed, 07 May 2014, 05:08:51 by Sagii »

Offline BlueBär

  • Posts: 2231
  • Location: Germany, SB
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 07 May 2014, 05:14:36 »
Some GHers have made 3D printed caps, but the quality isn't really great.

Well I'm pretty sure that the original BroBot V2s that the mold was made from were 3D printed. They're just too even and symmetrical.
Sure, right now 3D printers are more for prototyping but they will and can do things that are not really possible otherwise (hollow parts are a good example and I think there were some experiments with printed steaks?). Just wait a bit until they have developed their full potential.

Offline Sagii

  • Time to bust some nails
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 322
  • Location: Norway
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 07 May 2014, 05:28:20 »
Some GHers have made 3D printed caps, but the quality isn't really great.

Well I'm pretty sure that the original BroBot V2s that the mold was made from were 3D printed. They're just too even and symmetrical.
Sure, right now 3D printers are more for prototyping but they will and can do things that are not really possible otherwise (hollow parts are a good example and I think there were some experiments with printed steaks?). Just wait a bit until they have developed their full potential.

One of the biggest things with 3D printing right now is how cheap it is to make extremely complex shapes, because it is built from the ground up layer by layer.. the NC would simply not be able to do that (unless I've missed something), because it can't go from the inside out sort of speak. 3D is also handy since it's very easy to not use excessive materials.. you only use as much as you need to make what you're gonna make

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 07 May 2014, 08:23:35 »
I think you mean a "lathe", but the Pocket NC is more advanced than that. It's a 5-axis Computer Numerically Controlled (CNC) milling machine. The cutting bit is mounted in a spindle and spins at a controlled speed. The other parts move either the spindle or the work piece to get the cutting bit to carve out the shape.

It can do inside and outside edges and really complex shapes except for "closed" shapes with empty areas inside. For that you need to make 2 parts. You are right that 3D printing uses less material, but it has to be a very specific material and usually the requirements are a balancing act (it needs to have a specific melting point, have a specific consistency at that point, harden without shrinking, etc. balanced with strength and toughness when hardened) whereas you can CNC mill almost any solid material by using the right cutting bits, spindle speed and movement rate.

Can't do this with a 3D printer (at least not if you actually want to use the part, notice the surface finish on the blades):

3D printing can do complex shapes, but not at really high detail level, low tolerance and high strength, like you can with CNC.

I just don't really see many real world use cases where a 3D printer is that useful. If you are making a rough prototype of a casing for a mouse, then sure, it will work. If you want to actually mass produce the mouse casing, you'll need a CNC machine to make the molds. So why not just go for a CNC machine from the start  ;) I do admit that the really big, really accurate machines are VERY expensive, which is why the PocketNC is so interesting. It can do the size of parts most small startups would need and is affordable.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline Sagii

  • Time to bust some nails
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 322
  • Location: Norway
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 07 May 2014, 08:41:09 »
I think you mean a "lathe", but the Pocket NC is more advanced than that. It's a 5-axis Computer Numerically Controlled (CNC) milling machine. The cutting bit is mounted in a spindle and spins at a controlled speed. The other parts move either the spindle or the work piece to get the cutting bit to carve out the shape.

It can do inside and outside edges and really complex shapes except for "closed" shapes with empty areas inside. For that you need to make 2 parts. You are right that 3D printing uses less material, but it has to be a very specific material and usually the requirements are a balancing act (it needs to have a specific melting point, have a specific consistency at that point, harden without shrinking, etc. balanced with strength and toughness when hardened) whereas you can CNC mill almost any solid material by using the right cutting bits, spindle speed and movement rate.

Can't do this with a 3D printer (at least not if you actually want to use the part, notice the surface finish on the blades):

3D printing can do complex shapes, but not at really high detail level, low tolerance and high strength, like you can with CNC.

I just don't really see many real world use cases where a 3D printer is that useful. If you are making a rough prototype of a casing for a mouse, then sure, it will work. If you want to actually mass produce the mouse casing, you'll need a CNC machine to make the molds. So why not just go for a CNC machine from the start  ;) I do admit that the really big, really accurate machines are VERY expensive, which is why the PocketNC is so interesting. It can do the size of parts most small startups would need and is affordable.

Well, the 3D printers are just starting to blossom (within the private market), so I believe we'll see way more accurate, and way better machines in the near future. As for material, that's something they'll just have to work on. They've already been able to print sugarcandies and coockies for example :D

Offline Michael

  • Formerly Bro Caps
  • * Maker
  • Posts: 4632
  • REEEeeeeEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeee
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 07 May 2014, 11:19:47 »
Some GHers have made 3D printed caps, but the quality isn't really great.

Well I'm pretty sure that the original BroBot V2s that the mold was made from were 3D printed. They're just too even and symmetrical.



Wrong. CNC Machined.
« Last Edit: Wed, 07 May 2014, 11:21:53 by Bro Caps »

Offline tbc

  • Posts: 2365
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 07 May 2014, 11:28:09 »
it's always funny seeing people go gaga over 3d printing.

they've been used by PIM companies for well over a decade now and most likely 2 or 3.  they're really nice to have when you're making products that need to be held in someone's hand...like a handle on a walker for example. you get to try out dozens of shapes and sizes without any real risk.

the only thing that's happened recently is that those 3d printer designers have started selling their decades old design to consumers now without actually fixing any of the problems.
ALL zombros wanted:  dead or undead or dead-dead.

Offline Michael

  • Formerly Bro Caps
  • * Maker
  • Posts: 4632
  • REEEeeeeEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeeee
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 07 May 2014, 11:34:44 »
The best use case for 3D printing is rapid prototyping, which I used to test my V2's before going to a CNC mold. For that, they are great.
But it's not realistic to mass produce things using 3D printing, both on a cost and time scale.

Offline BlueBär

  • Posts: 2231
  • Location: Germany, SB
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 07 May 2014, 14:52:55 »
The best use case for 3D printing is rapid prototyping, which I used to test my V2's before going to a CNC mold.

Well my guess was kind of close then ;)
But it makes sense that you got it machined via CNC, I guess it doesn't break as easy?

Offline admiralvorian

  • Posts: 324
  • Location: United States
  • DIY
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 07 May 2014, 15:01:32 »
The best use case for 3D printing is rapid prototyping, which I used to test my V2's before going to a CNC mold.

Well my guess was kind of close then ;)
But it makes sense that you got it machined via CNC, I guess it doesn't break as easy?

I think it's more of an overall quality, production cost, etc. Once the CNC mold has been created, the only cost is for materials. A single mold costs less than a high-end 3d printer, plus it makes better quality objects. (or, higher resolution). Plus your choice of material is way more vast.
Darude Status:
☐ Not Sandstorm
☑ Sandstorm                                               wts wtt wtb

Offline Sagii

  • Time to bust some nails
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 322
  • Location: Norway
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 07 May 2014, 16:15:52 »
it's always funny seeing people go gaga over 3d printing.

they've been used by PIM companies for well over a decade now and most likely 2 or 3.  they're really nice to have when you're making products that need to be held in someone's hand...like a handle on a walker for example. you get to try out dozens of shapes and sizes without any real risk.

the only thing that's happened recently is that those 3d printer designers have started selling their decades old design to consumers now without actually fixing any of the problems.

Well, I guess the thing right now is the fact that they're starting to get "affordable"... it's no longer a 20 000$ machine.. anyhow, I really don't know much about this stuff at all. Just wondering if 3D printing keycaps actually was an option.

Offline admiralvorian

  • Posts: 324
  • Location: United States
  • DIY
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #14 on: Wed, 07 May 2014, 16:17:35 »

Well, I guess the thing right now is the fact that they're starting to get "affordable"... it's no longer a 20 000$ machine.. anyhow, I really don't know much about this stuff at all. Just wondering if 3D printing keycaps actually was an option.

yeah printing keycaps certainly is possible, but printing an entire board worth is a waste: cost, time, etc. just won't even out. now printing novelty caps...
Darude Status:
☐ Not Sandstorm
☑ Sandstorm                                               wts wtt wtb

Offline Sagii

  • Time to bust some nails
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 322
  • Location: Norway
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #15 on: Wed, 07 May 2014, 16:25:15 »

Well, I guess the thing right now is the fact that they're starting to get "affordable"... it's no longer a 20 000$ machine.. anyhow, I really don't know much about this stuff at all. Just wondering if 3D printing keycaps actually was an option.

yeah printing keycaps certainly is possible, but printing an entire board worth is a waste: cost, time, etc. just won't even out. now printing novelty caps...

Well, novelty caps was kinda what I was aimin for here, sorry if I made that unclear :)) never meant an entire board.. I understand that printing that would probably be too huge of a leap atm. Maybe, in the future, though :rolleyes:

Offline tbc

  • Posts: 2365
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #16 on: Wed, 07 May 2014, 22:12:43 »
it's always funny seeing people go gaga over 3d printing.

they've been used by PIM companies for well over a decade now and most likely 2 or 3.  they're really nice to have when you're making products that need to be held in someone's hand...like a handle on a walker for example. you get to try out dozens of shapes and sizes without any real risk.

the only thing that's happened recently is that those 3d printer designers have started selling their decades old design to consumers now without actually fixing any of the problems.

Well, I guess the thing right now is the fact that they're starting to get "affordable"... it's no longer a 20 000$ machine.. anyhow, I really don't know much about this stuff at all. Just wondering if 3D printing keycaps actually was an option.

sorry.  no, i don't mean to say you're wrong or silly about your thinking at all.  Yes, cost is to something to account for.

I was just commenting on how old some of the issues with 3d printing actually are (and why we shouldn't have super high hopes).  something like keycaps is fine, but when people are suggesting making knives, guns, and medical equipment thinking that 3d printed products are revolutionary...well, if they were, we'd all have hoverboards by now.
ALL zombros wanted:  dead or undead or dead-dead.

Offline Sagii

  • Time to bust some nails
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 322
  • Location: Norway
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 08 May 2014, 00:44:48 »
it's always funny seeing people go gaga over 3d printing.

they've been used by PIM companies for well over a decade now and most likely 2 or 3.  they're really nice to have when you're making products that need to be held in someone's hand...like a handle on a walker for example. you get to try out dozens of shapes and sizes without any real risk.

the only thing that's happened recently is that those 3d printer designers have started selling their decades old design to consumers now without actually fixing any of the problems.

Well, I guess the thing right now is the fact that they're starting to get "affordable"... it's no longer a 20 000$ machine.. anyhow, I really don't know much about this stuff at all. Just wondering if 3D printing keycaps actually was an option.

sorry.  no, i don't mean to say you're wrong or silly about your thinking at all.  Yes, cost is to something to account for.

I was just commenting on how old some of the issues with 3d printing actually are (and why we shouldn't have super high hopes).  something like keycaps is fine, but when people are suggesting making knives, guns, and medical equipment thinking that 3d printed products are revolutionary...well, if they were, we'd all have hoverboards by now.
No offence taken, mate :) and you've definetely got a point. Hasn't this technology been around since at least the 80's? Or that's what I've heard at least.
It seems like a really fun toy though, if you know your way around 3D modelling and sorts and are creative.. would be fun giving one to my gf or her sister, and see what they'd come up with (extremely creative, both of em, especially when it comes to shapes). Right now it doesn't seem to be many boundaries for what a printer could do... except the obvious part about quality and resolution. It's interesting to think of what stage this whole 3D dealio could end up at.. some day we might print our own cloths or food
« Last Edit: Thu, 08 May 2014, 00:47:44 by Sagii »

Offline noisyturtle

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 6425
  • comfortably numb
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #18 on: Thu, 08 May 2014, 01:02:39 »
3D printing is a step in the proper direction. Remember the huge changes machined replaceable parts made to the Industrial Revolution? With a bit more work, time, and expansion put into the idea; 3D printing could easily become a mainstay in the very near-future's lifestyle.

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #19 on: Thu, 08 May 2014, 01:34:32 »
3D printing is a step in the proper direction. Remember the huge changes machined replaceable parts made to the Industrial Revolution? With a bit more work, time, and expansion put into the idea; 3D printing could easily become a mainstay in the very near-future's lifestyle.

Well, this is the kind of hype I'm talking about. See the quote below:

it's always funny seeing people go gaga over 3d printing.

they've been used by PIM companies for well over a decade now and most likely 2 or 3.  they're really nice to have when you're making products that need to be held in someone's hand...like a handle on a walker for example. you get to try out dozens of shapes and sizes without any real risk.

the only thing that's happened recently is that those 3d printer designers have started selling their decades old design to consumers now without actually fixing any of the problems.

I remember seeing a laser-cured resin based 3D printer on "Beyond 2000" some time in the '80s (something like the Formlabs FORM 1). If they haven't improved the end product by now, it's just not going to happen, no matter how much effort is put in. The fact remains that plastic based 3D printers will never be as useful as a good CNC mill. Some of the more interesting powder-sintered versions (using metal powders) could be improved on to make stronger end products, but none of them can compete with a "milled from solid" product, due to the fact that building up layers cannot make a bond as strong as a truly solid material.

The main areas of use that I see are the same ones they've always been useful for: Building scaffolding for medical purposes, rapid prototyping of shapes where strength (and accuracy in the case of the more affordable machines) is not a requirement.

For one-off keycaps a 3D printer may work, however I foresee problems with the mount. May be hard to get it to fit nicely on the stem of the switch without being either too tight or too loose. I think some have had their designs printed with Shapeways (sintered powder, IIRC).

The only benefit over CNC I see at this point is cost. Although with the more accurate 3D printers like the FORM 1, there's not much difference in terms of the cost of the machine ($2500 vs $3000 for the PocketNC) and in fact the material is quite a bit more expensive than most materials used in CNC ($150 per litre), so a PocketNC would actually cost less overall after using a few litres of material.

Oh yes, then there's the fact that the materials only come in a limited range of colours, depending on the system used.

Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline noisyturtle

  • * Exalted Elder
  • Posts: 6425
  • comfortably numb
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 08 May 2014, 01:49:54 »
Well see, that's kind of a big deal, selling the means to consumers. It's open source now making it the veritable Wild West of self-manufacturable plastics. And so much of our societies structure is already built around plastic bits and pieces.

The cost benefit ratio is the issue here, and a 3D printer needs to be cheap and able to produce high-quality pieces at the same time. The technology's just not there yet though, but it will be very soon and that's what to look forward to. I mean something like this, if marketed and utilized properly, could make a huge dent in almost every consumer market imaginable while cutting out shipping costs to boot. The possibilities and sheer utilitarian values are staggering, honestly it very well could put your favorite keycap manufacturer's out of business over a weekend.

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 08 May 2014, 03:29:58 »
Well see, that's kind of a big deal, selling the means to consumers. It's open source now making it the veritable Wild West of self-manufacturable plastics. And so much of our societies structure is already built around plastic bits and pieces.

The cost benefit ratio is the issue here, and a 3D printer needs to be cheap and able to produce high-quality pieces at the same time. The technology's just not there yet though, but it will be very soon and that's what to look forward to. I mean something like this, if marketed and utilized properly, could make a huge dent in almost every consumer market imaginable while cutting out shipping costs to boot. The possibilities and sheer utilitarian values are staggering, honestly it very well could put your favorite keycap manufacturer's out of business over a weekend.

I highlighted a section of your text to make it clear what is irritating me about this hype surrounding 3D printing. In more than 30 years, the industry has not been able to produce materials and methods of printing to rival molded plastics or machined metals. Why do you think this is going to change "very soon"? It's great that people see the possibilities, but not so great that they ignore the downfalls. Just because 3D printing is getting a lot of exposure right now doesn't mean it's the solution to all consumer's problems.

The cost and effort required to print an article are still far more than a mass-produced molded version of the same thing and the quality is lower. It still makes more sense to make accurate metal molds and then mold plastic articles in bulk than to 3D print them. And I don't see the gap closing, since there has been plenty of time to improve things, but the main issues are still not solved.

So sure, you may be satisfied with an inaccurate, rough surfaced, single colour, blank 3D printed keycap which cost you time, effort and inconvenience to print on your (relatively) expensive 3D printer and that pops off your board when you use it, but many wouldn't be, myself included.

I guess this is my point: 3D printing will not replace molded mass manufactured plastics in any significant quantity, even if it is improved from it's current state. Making your own molds at home on your own affordable, accurate CNC machine, however, could. With a good CNC machine and a few other decent tools, there isn't much you can't make and the costs are dropping. That's why I think machines like the PocketNC are more exciting and "hype-worthy" than all these 3D printing devices.

It's the economy of scale. For some unique, individual pieces, it could be useful if they improve the materials and accuracy, though (like individual works of art, for instance), but then again, if you can machine them to greater accuracy from more durable materials for roughly the same cost, why bother.

It IS useful for rapidly prototyping through a few iterations of improvements of a product BEFORE using CNC to make molds, etc, though. Not so useful for a home user, but nice for a small startup. Again, if you are planning to CNC molds anyway, why pay the extra for a 3D printer when you can spend that on getting a better CNC machine and machine your prototypes using that.

I speak as a person considering a startup, prototyping parts and designing and redesigning a product before commiting to production. I'm building my own CNC machine, because I can, because the cost will be less than a 3D printer and because it will be the most useful to me. With a good machine you can mill replacement parts for practically anything. Cost to benefit ratio, just as you said.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline admiralvorian

  • Posts: 324
  • Location: United States
  • DIY
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #22 on: Thu, 08 May 2014, 16:40:02 »
... if you can machine them to greater accuracy from more durable materials for roughly the same cost, why bother.

3D printing: 0 knowledge needed
CNC: some knowledge and more than some experience needed

all the benefits you describe still don't mean that @ home CNC will steal the spotlight from 3d printing. Betamax had numerous benefits over VHS didn't it?
Darude Status:
☐ Not Sandstorm
☑ Sandstorm                                               wts wtt wtb

Offline Sagii

  • Time to bust some nails
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 322
  • Location: Norway
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 08 May 2014, 18:16:58 »
What's caught my eye with 3D printing is the simplicity.. it has a plug and play kind of feel to it. Bear in mind these are opinions Ive formed from simple youtube videos and some google searches. And I know absolutely nothing about CNC, but it just seems more complicated. The rewards also seem bigger though, but that might change in the future (near or distant, who knows)

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 09 May 2014, 04:23:28 »
Hmm... yes, you do have a point. I am very much a DIY kind of person, so I do tend to look for the most effective solution that may include learning, building, etc.

Maybe not everyone is like me.....  :eek:  :-\   ahem.

The simplicity is a drawcard for those not inclined to doing what it takes to become a hobby machinist (I'm not saying one or the other is better, just that there are different types of people), so it will get "manufacturing" into the hands of more people. Another "beneficial" factor in home 3D printing is that since the resolution is not that high, you don't need to use ultra-precise rails, screws and steppers, so you can make a printer more cheaply than a CNC machine.

I guess it has its place, but it won't be replacing most commercial plastic manufacture solutions or CNC solutions, IMHO. I happen to think it's worth stepping up to CNC if you really want to make more than just a few trinkets.

Back on topic (kind of):

In terms of what really matters (keycaps, hehe) I don't think any of the cheaper printers will be able to make decent quality keycaps for quite a while yet. Or any FDM (Fused Desposition Modeling) machine, really. Good laser-cured resin machines like the FORM 1 could do it, but only in one colour and at quite a high cost. Not sure that there's a way to make their system much cheaper, either. Then there are Selective Laser Sintering (SLS) machines which could have good enough resolution depending on the material used (and they tend to always leave a somewhat rough surface), but again, it's not going to be easy to reduce costs enough to make it a "one in every home" thing (Shapeways is currently the best option here) and it takes about as much learning to operate one as CNC.

Which brings me to the point that for some materials, it doesn't take much to learn to operate something like the PocketNC. The software can tell you what bit to use based on the material and then it does the rest.

In the end, modeling the parts may be the most difficult step in using either system.

[EDIT] - hmmmm...... I think I may just be able to prove myself wrong here.... It MAY be possible to make a VERY accurate laser cured resin printer cheaply (say $300), and get resins at a reasonable price, too ($125 per litre of high quality resin, maybe 5-10 full keycaps sets worth?). Maybe... [/EDIT]
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.

Offline Sagii

  • Time to bust some nails
  • Thread Starter
  • Posts: 322
  • Location: Norway
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 09 May 2014, 07:42:29 »
Hmm... yes, you do have a point. I am very much a DIY kind of person, so I do tend to look for the most effective solution that may include learning, building, etc.

Maybe not everyone is like me.....  :eek:  :-\   ahem.

The simplicity is a drawcard for those not inclined to doing what it takes to become a hobby machinist (I'm not saying one or the other is better, just that there are different types of people), so it will get "manufacturing" into the hands of more people. Another "beneficial" factor in home 3D printing is that since the resolution is not that high, you don't need to use ultra-precise rails, screws and steppers, so you can make a printer more cheaply than a CNC machine.

I guess it has its place, but it won't be replacing most commercial plastic manufacture solutions or CNC solutions, IMHO. I happen to think it's worth stepping up to CNC if you really want to make more than just a few trinkets.

Back on topic (kind of):

In terms of what really matters (keycaps, hehe) I don't think any of the cheaper printers will be able to make decent quality keycaps for quite a while yet. Or any FDM (Fused Desposition Modeling) machine, really. Good laser-cured resin machines like the FORM 1 could do it, but only in one colour and at quite a high cost. Not sure that there's a way to make their system much cheaper, either. Then there are Selective Laser Sintering (SLS) machines which could have good enough resolution depending on the material used (and they tend to always leave a somewhat rough surface), but again, it's not going to be easy to reduce costs enough to make it a "one in every home" thing (Shapeways is currently the best option here) and it takes about as much learning to operate one as CNC.

Which brings me to the point that for some materials, it doesn't take much to learn to operate something like the PocketNC. The software can tell you what bit to use based on the material and then it does the rest.

In the end, modeling the parts may be the most difficult step in using either system.

[EDIT] - hmmmm...... I think I may just be able to prove myself wrong here.... It MAY be possible to make a VERY accurate laser cured resin printer cheaply (say $300), and get resins at a reasonable price, too ($125 per litre of high quality resin, maybe 5-10 full keycaps sets worth?). Maybe... [/EDIT]

At this stage in the development of 3D printing and so forth I'd have to agree with you. There's no way 3D printing is gonna take over the "home industry" as it is. But the fact is that 3D printers printing metal and those alikes have been used for a very long time in industry, even though it's often rough modelling and stuff like you guys have already. What I think what makes the 3D printer stand out more than the CNC at the moment is the possibility of it becoming a normal household product. Something everyone has in their home (Now, I don't expect this to happen during the next 10 years, but maybe some day). With that said, if 3D printing needs that long to actually develop the technology, I can't see any reason why CNC wouldn't have been able to develop their technology and how userfriendly it is.
What I like with 3D printing at THIS stage is the ability to use it as a toy at home, doing all sorts of stuff. Printing everything from small scale models of game related stuff (games, characters, etc.), and making cool and intricate designs ("art"), to making actually usefull stuff that you can use in everyday life (can opener, something to hold your PS4 controller, a small slingshot).
I don't believe it'll be a proper TOOL at home, as it is now, just because of the quality and resolution, but I can definetely seeing it being used as a toy.
« Last Edit: Fri, 09 May 2014, 07:44:30 by Sagii »

Offline James35

  • Posts: 67
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 16 May 2014, 00:34:36 »
I agree with Oobly. The main problem why the 3D printing isn't as good as machining is because 3D printing is kind of like gluing a new blob of plastic onto another part of plastic that just hardened. Almost like using a hot glue gun to build something sizable.

If anyone want's advice on getting started into home CNC machining, feel free to contact me. One of the best small CNC machines is the Taig CNC machine. More robust than the Sherline competitor, and it's no bigger than a drill press, yet the precision is amazing. It can hold a 1 to 2 thou tolerance out of the box and it's only about $2-4K to get one up and running. Quiet enough to run without waking the family too.


Offline luisbg

  • Posts: 248
  • Location: London
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #27 on: Mon, 19 May 2014, 00:24:19 »
I agree with Oobly. The main problem why the 3D printing isn't as good as machining is because 3D printing is kind of like gluing a new blob of plastic onto another part of plastic that just hardened. Almost like using a hot glue gun to build something sizable.

If anyone want's advice on getting started into home CNC machining, feel free to contact me. One of the best small CNC machines is the Taig CNC machine. More robust than the Sherline competitor, and it's no bigger than a drill press, yet the precision is amazing. It can hold a 1 to 2 thou tolerance out of the box and it's only about $2-4K to get one up and running. Quiet enough to run without waking the family too.
Show Image


So.. want to make some keycaps for us?
Leopold FC660M - Brown mx switches - black case - white blank keys :: ErgoDox - Blue mx switches - classic case - black blank keys

Offline Pacifist

  • Report me *again* if there are gifs in my sig
  • * Elevated Elder
  • Posts: 3599
  • Location: Cali
  • on hiatus
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #28 on: Mon, 19 May 2014, 00:28:49 »
I agree with Oobly. The main problem why the 3D printing isn't as good as machining is because 3D printing is kind of like gluing a new blob of plastic onto another part of plastic that just hardened. Almost like using a hot glue gun to build something sizable.

If anyone want's advice on getting started into home CNC machining, feel free to contact me. One of the best small CNC machines is the Taig CNC machine. More robust than the Sherline competitor, and it's no bigger than a drill press, yet the precision is amazing. It can hold a 1 to 2 thou tolerance out of the box and it's only about $2-4K to get one up and running. Quiet enough to run without waking the family too.
Show Image


How good is stem work? I find that the stem is one of the hardest things to work with, casting and 3d printing included

Offline James35

  • Posts: 67
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #29 on: Mon, 19 May 2014, 01:19:30 »
Making the + cut would be the slowest part, but certainly doable as they make plenty of end mill bits even smaller than we need. "Slowest" meaning turning the cutting speed down so you don't break a little, yet expensive end mill. I just did a quick measurement and it looks like a 0.040" end mill bit would work great.  McMaster part #8915A44 would be just about right. I would machine the underside of the key first so we wouldn't have to worry about holding an odd shaped item. 
« Last Edit: Mon, 19 May 2014, 01:21:45 by James35 »

Offline Oobly

  • * Esteemed Elder
  • Posts: 3929
  • Location: Finland
Re: 3D Printing
« Reply #30 on: Mon, 19 May 2014, 08:15:06 »
I agree with Oobly. The main problem why the 3D printing isn't as good as machining is because 3D printing is kind of like gluing a new blob of plastic onto another part of plastic that just hardened. Almost like using a hot glue gun to build something sizable.

If anyone want's advice on getting started into home CNC machining, feel free to contact me. One of the best small CNC machines is the Taig CNC machine. More robust than the Sherline competitor, and it's no bigger than a drill press, yet the precision is amazing. It can hold a 1 to 2 thou tolerance out of the box and it's only about $2-4K to get one up and running. Quiet enough to run without waking the family too.
Show Image


That's a sweet little mill!

I plan on making something a little bigger (650mm or so movement on the x-axis, about 500 on the y), but with good accuracy, too. I'm slowly buying parts on ebay from Korea, China, etc. Some parts from decomissioned machines are still in good enough condition to use for a long time (like precision ground ballscrews with proper antibacklash nuts and bearing blocks, or 4-way recirculating linear bearing blocks and rails).

Problem at the moment is I don't actually have a good place to put the finished machine yet!

I do see the stem being quite difficult, whether you're making a mold or directly machining a "positive" since the + sits in a "cup" shape with a mold and is a small "inside" space on a positive, but there's always a way to get the job done :) For greatest accuracy it may be best to make the mold in 3 parts, with the stem part made separately (say from a cylinder with a base) and attaching "through" the base mold.
Buying more keycaps,
it really hacks my wallet,
but I must have them.