Finding it impossible to choose a keyboard...

[NightCabbage]

Hi all

So I've been looking for a new keyboard for years. I'm using an old PS2 Logitech iTouch keyboard (below). It's rubber dome - but it still has a relatively good feel to it.


I've tried many switch types, and find myself not liking most of them for various reasons...

Cherry Red / Black - I don't think linear is for me... I prefer some tactile feedback upon the actuation point.

Cherry Blue / Green - I bought a keyboard using Blues (Corsair K70) thinking it'd be great. I did like the feel of the keys. The problem I had was that the reset/release point was above the activation point. For me, this meant that, in games, I would be running forward using the W key. When I wanted to stop, I would release the key, past tactile bump. But the key would still be held down, until I physically removed my finger from it. The SLIGHTEST bit of pressure would mean it would remain active. And so my character would continue to run, right off a cliff I like the idea if Greens even better - however I know I cannot live with keys that remain active after I have "released" my finger on them. Bummer. I am not sure how anyone would game with these keys?

Cherry Brown / Clear - These are ok. They are still, at their core, linear switches, but they have slight tactile feedback. The browns feel too weak - not satisfying. I'm sure I could get sued to them, but they just do not feel good to me. And the Clears seem to still feel a bit strange, while also having the problem of sticking a little just before the bump on the release of the keys.

Logitech (Omron) Romer-G - There are also ok. More like rubber dome, similar to Cherry Browns. Like the Browns, I with they had more tactile feedback! Also the have a slightly annoying "spring" sound to them...

Matias (ALPS replica) Click / Quiet - These are probably the #1 and #2 choices on my list so far. I had a play with White ALPS switches years ago, and remember really liking them. They have a very distinct tactile feel, which I love. Sadly there are not many keyboards using these switches - basically the Matias Tactile Pro and Quiet Pro (PC versions).

So, now I'm left wondering, what do I buy?

Logitech G810
Corsair K70 RGB Brown
Matias Tactile Pro 4 (PC)
Matias Quiet Pro 4 (PC)

The Logitech and Corsair are very similar (and Logitech even have a G610 version with Cherry Brown keys). They sound ok, but I know that I don't love the actual key switches themselves... so it'd almost be a disappointing purchase.

I am quiet tempted to buy one of the Matias boards, though I'm not entirely sure which... The keyboards don't have a lot of features, but I don't really require too many. Mainly I'm annoyed they've changed the standard layout, to remove the right Windows and Context keys, and replace them with a single (useless) Fn key (that only does Play/Next/Prev on Esc/F1/F2). But other than this, they seem pretty good. And I think I'll love the actual switches!

Any help in making my mind up would be greatly appreciated
Also, if after reading my thoughts on the various switches, anyone knows of a possible alternative I have yet to see, that would be great too!

Thanks!

[supamesican]

Want clicky? Matias tactile pro(or white alps on ebay to save money) tactile and clicky. or buckling springs(used model m on ebay or new unicomp) tactile, very loud click, can be used in self/home defense if need be.

Dont care about clicky( D= ) matias quiet click, like the tactile pros with no sound. OR topre, far more tactile than browns, quiet, tactile point is at actuation like with buckling spring and alps, feels almost like typing on a bouncy tactile cloud.


alps(matias) topre and buckling spring are in my opinion the 3 best things on the market right now, just need to decide if you want click or not.

[Findecanor]

Not tried Topre yet? If your preference is rubber dome and you want the best there is - then Topre is the way to go.

Cherry Brown / Clear - These are ok. They are still, at their core, linear switches, but they have slight tactile feedback. The browns feel too weak - not satisfying. I'm sure I could get sued to them, but they just do not feel good to me. And the Clears seem to still feel a bit strange, while also having the problem of sticking a little just before the bump on the release of the keys.

Sure. The term "mechanical switch" is most often associated with the metal spring in them.

I am not comfortable with people throwing Browns and Clears together. I don't think they are very similar at all.
The Clears are not supposed to be pressed all the way down -- only until they actuate. They feel more like low-profile rubber domes on top of linear switches. Once you get the hang of it, they are not that weird.

[Sneaky Potato]

Both Matias and Alps are great choices. I personally was not happy with any of the MX flavors, and I opted to the Topre side and haven't looked back. When I started to get the itch for something really clicky and tactile, Matias Click switches came to my rescue. I alternate between the two boards now, and heartily recommend both. The Matias click switches are loud, but it's lower pitched and more thocky than blues, which irritated my coworkers and wife to no end. People don't complain about my Matias switches, and they're MUCH more tactile than blues ever were.

[NightCabbage]

Not tried Topre yet? If your preference is rubber dome and you want the best there is - then Topre is the way to go.

Ah, I wish I could try one of these out! So it's more tactile than a Cherry Brown, but less tactile than a Matias Quiet Click? (more "mushy", I've heard)

Want clicky? Matias tactile pro(or white alps on ebay to save money) tactile and clicky. or buckling springs(used model m on ebay or new unicomp) tactile, very loud click, can be used in self/home defense if need be.

I'm not sure... I guess I don't want it to be TOO loud, to the point where it gets in the way of normal use. I had not considered Unicomp - but I notice they have swapped the right Alt and Windows keys - that seems odd??

Dont care about clicky( D= ) matias quiet click, like the tactile pros with no sound. OR topre, far more tactile than browns, quiet, tactile point is at actuation like with buckling spring and alps, feels almost like typing on a bouncy tactile cloud.

lol I take it that means you prefer clicky
Matias Quiet Click - is more tactile than the Topre, I assume? They would have a different feel? I guess the Matias would feel more... "crisp"?

Both Matias and Alps are great choices. I personally was not happy with any of the MX flavors, and I opted to the Topre side and haven't looked back. When I started to get the itch for something really clicky and tactile, Matias Click switches came to my rescue. I alternate between the two boards now, and heartily recommend both. The Matias click switches are loud, but it's lower pitched and more thocky than blues, which irritated my coworkers and wife to no end. People don't complain about my Matias switches, and they're MUCH more tactile than blues ever were.

Ah so you have a Topre and a Matias Click.
Hmmm that makes it sound like the noise wouldn't be too annoying?

Ok, so it sounds like I have 3 choices:

Matias Tactile Pro
Matias Quiet Pro
Topre Type Heaven ( seems to be the main Topre board available?)

Now... how to make a decision between the 3?

[chyros]

The phenomenon you're referring to where the switch doesn't reset at the same point at which it actuates is called hysteresis. Most switches have it, because from a design perspective it is actually desirable. Alps, Matias, buckling springs, Cherry, and I'm pretty sure Topre too all have hysteresis, although some have it more than others. It's relatively pronounced on MX blue.

A very good switch that doesn't come with hysteresis is SMK 2nd Gen "Monterey". Maybe you'd like them .

[NightCabbage]

The phenomenon you're referring to where the switch doesn't reset at the same point at which it actuates is called hysteresis. Most switches have it, because from a design perspective it is actually desirable. Alps, Matias, buckling springs, Cherry, and I'm pretty sure Topre too all have hysteresis, although some have it more than others. It's relatively pronounced on MX blue.

Yes - I'm not sure how accurate these graphs are, but this is what I mean...


Activate and reset both at 2mm


Activate at 2.25mm, reset at 1.5mm (though it felt higher to me in actual use!)

I'm hoping the Matias / Topre would be much better (but can't find any graphs for those).

A very good switch that doesn't come with hysteresis is SMK 2nd Gen "Monterey". Maybe you'd like them .

lol, are you trolling me Isn't that a latching switch?

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Cherry Blue / Green - I bought a keyboard using Blues (Corsair K70) thinking it'd be great. I did like the feel of the keys. The problem I had was that the reset/release point was above the activation point. For me, this meant that, in games, I would be running forward using the W key. When I wanted to stop, I would release the key, past tactile bump. But the key would still be held down, until I physically removed my finger from it. The SLIGHTEST bit of pressure would mean it would remain active. And so my character would continue to run, right off a cliff I like the idea if Greens even better - however I know I cannot live with keys that remain active after I have "released" my finger on them. Bummer. I am not sure how anyone would game with these keys?

The 2D vertical-scroller minigame in Starcraft 2 was a bit of a problem on harder levels when I was a newbie, but I entirely capable of playing car rallies/racers with no issues later on. I even played (and maxed) gymkhana parts in Dirt 3 — something people believe to require a wheel and not be doable with a keyboard at all. Also stuff like Mass Effect. No true FPS, though.

Cherry Brown / Clear - These are ok. They are still, at their core, linear switches, but they have slight tactile feedback. The browns feel too weak - not satisfying. I'm sure I could get sued to them, but they just do not feel good to me. And the Clears seem to still feel a bit strange, while also having the problem of sticking a little just before the bump on the release of the keys.

Browns need some getting used to.

Matias (ALPS replica) Click / Quiet - These are probably the #1 and #2 choices on my list so far. I had a play with White ALPS switches years ago, and remember really liking them. They have a very distinct tactile feel, which I love. Sadly there are not many keyboards using these switches - basically the Matias Tactile Pro and Quiet Pro (PC versions).

Old Dell keyboards (AT101/102) have black Alps and are dirt cheap. I remember buying 10 of then for like 70 bucks.

So, now I'm left wondering, what do I buy?

Logitech G810
Corsair K70 RGB Brown
Matias Tactile Pro 4 (PC)
Matias Quiet Pro 4 (PC)

The Logitech and Corsair are very similar (and Logitech even have a G610 version with Cherry Brown keys). They sound ok, but I know that I don't love the actual key switches themselves... so it'd almost be a disappointing purchase.

Something from outside the list? Maybe Unicomp? Blue or other Alps (vintage board)? Topre? I've just ordered a Cooler Master Novatouch TKL, probably the cheapest Topre keyboard ever.

I am quiet tempted to buy one of the Matias boards, though I'm not entirely sure which... The keyboards don't have a lot of features, but I don't really require too many. Mainly I'm annoyed they've changed the standard layout, to remove the right Windows and Context keys, and replace them with a single (useless) Fn key (that only does Play/Next/Prev on Esc/F1/F2). But other than this, they seem pretty good. And I think I'll love the actual switches!

TheKeyboardCo over in the UK have ergonomic Matiases that pack a serious pound but have additional benefits other than just being a mech board.

And there's nothing wrong with using a rubber dome if you like the feel (including 'scissors', which is, in fact, a hybrid switch, just too cheap and trivial to be widely considered to be proper 'mech').

[supamesican]

Want clicky? Matias tactile pro(or white alps on ebay to save money) tactile and clicky. or buckling springs(used model m on ebay or new unicomp) tactile, very loud click, can be used in self/home defense if need be.

I'm not sure... I guess I don't want it to be TOO loud, to the point where it gets in the way of normal use. I had not considered Unicomp - but I notice they have swapped the right Alt and Windows keys - that seems odd??

My unicomp has never been too loud for me, its a satisfying click that is loud but in no way distracting other than at the start with the enjoyment of using it.

Dont care about clicky( D= ) matias quiet click, like the tactile pros with no sound. OR topre, far more tactile than browns, quiet, tactile point is at actuation like with buckling spring and alps, feels almost like typing on a bouncy tactile cloud.

lol I take it that means you prefer clicky
Matias Quiet Click - is more tactile than the Topre, I assume? They would have a different feel? I guess the Matias would feel more... "crisp"?

I haven't tried matias' switches but on my alps clone board it is about the same tactility wise but you get it in a shorter jolt with alps style vs *slightly* more spread out from the nature of the dome on torpe.

Alps and buckling springs arent much louder than blues to me, but if you dont want noise its topre or quiet click. If the instant of tactility, along with quiet, is what you want vs a tactile mush like a could  then its matias for you.  Dont care about noise? Model M from unicomp.

[UnFocused]

Matias (ALPS replica) Click / Quiet - These are probably the #1 and #2 choices on my list so far. I had a play with White ALPS switches years ago, and remember really liking them. They have a very distinct tactile feel, which I love. Sadly there are not many keyboards using these switches - basically the Matias Tactile Pro and Quiet Pro (PC versions).

The KB Paradise V80 with Matias Quiet Click switches is a very nice keyboard.

[ThoughtArtist]

MX Clears are very refined. After getting used to them, I shudder to think of replacing the springs, due to the synergy of the spring and stem. Gotta go with the pros on that one!

[NightCabbage]

Sorry, I should have mentioned, I'm looking for a full-sized keyboard - not a tenkeyless

Unicomp look pretty fun - but looking at the "Ultra Classic Black Buckling Spring USB"... it appears they have swapped the right Alt and Windows keys around? Why would they do this? It is a deal-breaker for me.
Is this the model I should be looking at? Or is there a better one? maybe the "Ultra Classic Black Buckling Spring USB *103 Key*" - which has Alt in the right place, and simply does not have the right Windows key.

-EDIT-
Oh wow, so apparently they changed it from the standard layout, to the horrible layout in 2013 on purpose, to more closely match the old 101 key layout. Personally, that is a terrible idea LOL maybe I should get one of the older ones.
http://www.pckeyboard.com/mm5/graphics/ProductNews7-25-13.pdf
-END EDIT-

Ok so now my list is...

Clicky
Matias Tactile Pro
Unicomp Ultra Classic Black Buckling Spring USB *103 Key*

Tactile
Matias Quiet Pro
Topre Type Heaven

[UnFocused]

Clicky
Matias Tactile Pro
Ultra Classic Black Buckling Spring USB *103 Key*

Tactile
Matias Quiet Pro
Topre Type Heaven

I think the Topre Type Heaven is the highest quality keyboard of those you listed. Have you thought about one of the full sized Realforce keyboards instead?

[NightCabbage]

I think the Topre Type Heaven is the highest quality keyboard of those you listed. Have you thought about one of the full sized Realforce keyboards instead?

Highest quality hey? Always a good thing. What about the tactile feel of the keys - I guess that's what I'm most worried about with the Topre - that they will feel less "crisp" and more "mushy"?

Also, what are the differences between the Type Heaven and the Realforce (other than about $100 haha). What makes it more expensive?

[UnFocused]

Highest quality hey? Always a good thing. What about the tactile feel of the keys - I guess that's what I'm most worried about with the Topre - that they will feel less "crisp" and more "mushy"?

Also, what are the differences between the Type Heaven and the Realforce (other than about $100 haha). What makes it more expensive?

I don't know how the 45g switches in Type Heaven feel. My Realforce has 55g switches and I've not tried any other Topre switches. People do seem to love the 45g ones in the HHKB and Novatouch keyboards.

From what I know, the Realforce keyboards are made entirely in Japan (thus the "Made in Japan" sticker on the bottom of mine). The Type Heaven is assembled in China with parts from Japan. It also has ABS keycaps instead of the very nice PBT ones on the Realforce.

How often do you use the number pad? You have many more options if you look for a keyboard with one and then get a separate number pad.

[NightCabbage]

Hmmm it looks like, including shipping to Australia, the Realforce would cost over $400 AUD

Plus I don't know if I'd even like the keys? Sounds too risky!

The other boards are all around the $250 AUD mark, which sounds better

[jacobolus]

I recommend a used Alps keyboard. You should be able to find them for <$50 on your favorite local auction site.

[NightCabbage]

I recommend a used Alps keyboard. You should be able to find them for <$50 on your favorite local auction site.

May I ask why this over a Matias?

(other than the price, of course - unless that's it?)

I'd prefer a shiny new one! Plus, it has to be USB (and full-sized, standard layout) - which seems to be difficult to locate...

After watching this video, I'm more tempted by the Matias Tactile Pro than the Quiet Pro... Sounds like the Tactile Clicky switches feel much better?

[atlas3686]

my two cents would be either a fullsize topre, ideally realforce but fullsize realforce can be tough to find, or a model m or unicomp. Remember you can always software remap keys if something is bothering you, check out autohotkey.

[NightCabbage]

Hmmm interesting, lots of people recommending Topre - though when i read about them, the tactile feel seems less good compared to the ALPS / Matias Click, etc. ??

[chyros]

Hmmm interesting, lots of people recommending Topre - though when i read about them, the tactile feel seems less good compared to the ALPS / Matias Click, etc. ??

It's a very different feel. Alps switches feel quite different from Matias ones, too. Matias switches have a much stronger tactility than genuine Alps for example.

[NightCabbage]

lol this is a hard choice

I wish I could just buy about 4 different boards and test them all out!

So, looking at this graph, I'm now worried about the hysteresis of the buckling spring keyboards... specifically how they would be for gaming - would I suffer the same problem I did with the Cherry Blues, for example?



It would appear the Topre keys are good in this regard:



And I have no idea what the Matias switches would be like, can't find any graphs for those
Though I am hearing lots of quality control issues that are concerning...

-EDIT-

I'm seriously considering the Topre Type Heaven now... After reading some reviews, and hearing some people on this forum speak about it, the Topre keys seem to be really good. Also, the boards seem to be very high quality, whereas I've heard some quite bad things about the quality of both Matias and Unicomp boards.

Already it's going to cost over $250 for a Type Heaven, and I can't really justify over $350 for a Realforce. Sadly shipping to Australia is not cheap, and these boards are not available in Australia

[UnFocused]

Hmmm it looks like, including shipping to Australia, the Realforce would cost over $400 AUD

Plus I don't know if I'd even like the keys? Sounds too risky!

The other boards are all around the $250 AUD mark, which sounds better

Ouch.

Do you know about this company in Australia? It looks like they have a reasonable selection of keyboards including Topre boards.

https://mechkb.com/products/mechanical-keyboards

[NightCabbage]

Do you know about this company in Australia? It looks like they have a reasonable selection of keyboards including Topre boards.

https://mechkb.com/products/mechanical-keyboards

Just found them actually! Seems to be the best way to get a Type Heaven About $220 AUD. No appropriate Realforce boards there though. I'd want a full-sized uniform 55g (which does not exist).

So the Type Heaven is sounding like a pretty good option. Given I'm used to rubber dome, I assume it'd be pretty easy for me to get used to it. Most people seem pretty happy with Topre!

Of course I'm still considering the other ones, but feel a bit paralysed at this point - like I can't get enough information to make a good decision, because I can't actually try them out.

Topre Type Heaven
Unicomp Ultra Classic
Matias Tactile Pro
Matias Quiet Pro

[supamesican]

Do you know about this company in Australia? It looks like they have a reasonable selection of keyboards including Topre boards.

https://mechkb.com/products/mechanical-keyboards

Just found them actually! Seems to be the best way to get a Type Heaven About $220 AUD. No appropriate Realforce boards there though. I'd want a full-sized uniform 55g (which does not exist).

So the Type Heaven is sounding like a pretty good option. Given I'm used to rubber dome, I assume it'd be pretty easy for me to get used to it. Most people seem pretty happy with Topre!

Of course I'm still considering the other ones, but feel a bit paralysed at this point - like I can't get enough information to make a good decision, because I can't actually try them out.

Topre Type Heaven
Unicomp Ultra Classic
Matias Tactile Pro
Matias Quiet Pro

Having used whites alps style(what the tactile pro uses) unicomp's endura pro(ultra classic + track point) and topre( as I type this) switches, I would honestly get the unicomp. It has the most tactile feel to it, the crispest click/key push and the second besk switches I have ever used. Plus there just isnt anything quite like the feeling of a spring compressing and buckling under your finger.

If you want I can go in to a more detailed post when I'm lunch in 4 hours.

[NightCabbage]

Having used whites alps style(what the tactile pro uses) unicomp's endura pro(ultra classic + track point) and topre( as I type this) switches, I would honestly get the unicomp. It has the most tactile feel to it, the crispest click/key push and the second besk switches I have ever used. Plus there just isnt anything quite like the feeling of a spring compressing and buckling under your finger.

If you want I can go in to a more detailed post when I'm lunch in 4 hours.

Oh this is interesting. Second best? Which is the best feel?
And you find it better than the white alps style?

You don't think the buckling spring may goive me troubles with gaming due to hysteresis? (Like I had with the Cherry Blues)

I would love some more information - it sounds like you have good experience with all of the types of switches I am considering

Thank you in advance!

[Lohup]

This may be a dumb suggestion, but for me, the next best thing to typing on a particular keyboard has been watching YouTube videos of people typing on them - what my girlfriend calls "keyboard porn" . You get a lot of information from these - how they sound, and a bit of a sense of what the typing experience is like. In the best videos the demo-er will press some keys slowly so you get an idea of force and actuation, as well as typing at speed.

Here's one for the Realforce 87u:

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Alps and buckling springs arent much louder than blues to me, but if you dont want noise its topre or quiet click. If the instant of tactility, along with quiet, is what you want vs a tactile mush like a could  then its matias for you.  Dont care about noise? Model M from unicomp.

Buckling Springs and MX Blues are more or less comparable, I'd have to check to know which ones are louder. I can only suspect the spring action is louder in (especially older?) BS compared to Blue MX due to how the switch is built.

Topre isn't necessarily quieter than blues, and dbA isn't everything. Blues are loud in terms of pure dbA, but the sound isn't annoying. What Topre lacks in dbA, it can make up or in annoyability if you aren't a fan of that particular thock sound. This is something more important to people with labyrinth (inner ear) problems. If you have locomotive sickness, react badly to river currents or sea waves or frequently feel nausaeous, then you may have this problem. This is based on my initial first-hand experience — I'm not taking it well, it's getting to my ears in this sort of nasty way and making me feel a bit sick, unlike the louder blues.

[UnFocused]

Buckling Springs and MX Blues are more or less comparable, I'd have to check to know which ones are louder. I can only suspect the spring action is louder in (especially older?) BS compared to Blue MX due to how the switch is built.

Topre isn't necessarily quieter than blues, and dbA isn't everything. Blues are loud in terms of pure dbA, but the sound isn't annoying. What Topre lacks in dbA, it can make up or in annoyability if you aren't a fan of that particular thock sound. This is something more important to people with labyrinth (inner ear) problems. If you have locomotive sickness, react badly to river currents or sea waves or frequently feel nausaeous, then you may have this problem. This is based on my initial first-hand experience — I'm not taking it well, it's getting to my ears in this sort of nasty way and making me feel a bit sick, unlike the louder blues.

The way people react to the sounds different keyboards make is interesting.

I used buckling springs exclusively at work and home from the late 90s until I started using a QFR with blues at home to get extra desk space in 2012.

I still love the sound of buckling springs, but I've come to absolutely HATE that nasty high pitched click of MX blues. I hate them so much that I desoldered them from my QFR and replaced nearly all of them with Taiwan Jet Axis (linear MX clones) from a junked keyboard a friend found at a demolition site! I still need to do the function keys, but I plan on leaving a single MX blue in that keyboard to occasionally remind me of my pure, raging hatred for the sound of MX blues.

On to the Topre thock sound... I'm typing this on my RF 55g and loving hearing every single thock!

 

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Buckling Springs and MX Blues are more or less comparable, I'd have to check to know which ones are louder. I can only suspect the spring action is louder in (especially older?) BS compared to Blue MX due to how the switch is built.

Topre isn't necessarily quieter than blues, and dbA isn't everything. Blues are loud in terms of pure dbA, but the sound isn't annoying. What Topre lacks in dbA, it can make up or in annoyability if you aren't a fan of that particular thock sound. This is something more important to people with labyrinth (inner ear) problems. If you have locomotive sickness, react badly to river currents or sea waves or frequently feel nausaeous, then you may have this problem. This is based on my initial first-hand experience — I'm not taking it well, it's getting to my ears in this sort of nasty way and making me feel a bit sick, unlike the louder blues.

The way people react to the sounds different keyboards make is interesting.

I used buckling springs exclusively at work and home from the late 90s until I started using a QFR with blues at home to get extra desk space in 2012.

I still love the sound of buckling springs, but I've come to absolutely HATE that nasty high pitched click of MX blues. I hate them so much that I desoldered them from my QFR and replaced nearly all of them with Taiwan Jet Axis (linear MX clones) from a junked keyboard a friend found at a demolition site! I still need to do the function keys, but I plan on leaving a single MX blue in that keyboard to occasionally remind me of my pure, raging hatred for the sound of MX blues.

On to the Topre thock sound... I'm typing this on my RF 55g and loving hearing every single thock!

Either 35g or 45g here, dunno for sure. Probably uniform across the board.

I wouldn't have noticed the effect but for a huge cup of strong coffee, which always makes loco sickness worse; it's a bit of a catalyst. The problem is, I often need to be high on caffeine, so this matters. But I'm slowly getting used to the sound

I don't remember if I had any issues with the sound of blues at first. It may have felt louder, more resounding, yeah, I think it was. I have some vague recollections of contemplating the casing echo and thinking about using some dampening mats inside the case. But this was very hard to bring back from memory. Later, I've only felt and nothing else for the Blue sound. Yes, the high-pitched click, almost as pleasant as a ping. However, I can easily relate to high-pitched sounds being a pain in the ear.

Blues don't seem to bother my family — they're loud but have become pleasant to hear after so much time. Friends and others can't stand them while talking to me on Skype or phone when I type at the same time, though.

[supamesican]

Having used whites alps style(what the tactile pro uses) unicomp's endura pro(ultra classic + track point) and topre( as I type this) switches, I would honestly get the unicomp. It has the most tactile feel to it, the crispest click/key push and the second besk switches I have ever used. Plus there just isnt anything quite like the feeling of a spring compressing and buckling under your finger.

If you want I can go in to a more detailed post when I'm lunch in 4 hours.

Oh this is interesting. Second best? Which is the best feel?
And you find it better than the white alps style?

You don't think the buckling spring may goive me troubles with gaming due to hysteresis? (Like I had with the Cherry Blues)

I would love some more information - it sounds like you have good experience with all of the types of switches I am considering

Thank you in advance!

to be honest I dont know much about hysteresis, but as chyros said most switches have it. However all 3 types of switches you are looking at are far better about it then tactile mx switches. The tactility of buckling spring(unicomp and every other model m) is at about the same instant as the key press, unlike blues, same for the other two but I find the vibration of the spring going through my fingers lasts longer on my unicomp so it feels more accurate to the key activation to me. If that makes sense.

The best keyboard feel to me is the model f's capactivie buckling springs.

anywho on to how the switches feel to me . I'll start with topre since that what I'm using now.

picture one of the extra large bubble wrap bubbles, now it has been pushed and prodded so its close to popping and its much mushier than a fresh bubble. Push it down its soft then POP the key has been pushed. On the way back up its like a mini trampoline is pushing your fingers.  Then it resets and you can do it again.

White alps style, a little metal tab under the key gives tactility, its stiff but satisfyingly so. You push past it and you feel it flick, then its liner to the bottom. It springs back up when done.

buckling springs, push down and feel the metal compress and slightly start to grind together the more you push, it starts sliding out from the middle then all at once its gone and it buckles. The ping of the middle of the spring vibrates through your finger tips and the letter is on screen. as you go back the pressure releases on the spring and it pushes back to normal.

Yeah... I love me some buckling springs.

[NightCabbage]

picture one of the extra large bubble wrap bubbles, now it has been pushed and prodded so its close to popping and its much mushier than a fresh bubble. Push it down its soft then POP the key has been pushed. On the way back up its like a mini trampoline is pushing your fingers.  Then it resets and you can do it again.

White alps style, a little metal tab under the key gives tactility, its stiff but satisfyingly so. You push past it and you feel it flick, then its liner to the bottom. It springs back up when done.

buckling springs, push down and feel the metal compress and slightly start to grind together the more you push, it starts sliding out from the middle then all at once its gone and it buckles. The ping of the middle of the spring vibrates through your finger tips and the letter is on screen. as you go back the pressure releases on the spring and it pushes back to normal.

lol they all sound good in their own way

Some other thoughts:

* Looked at Unicomp - sadly, even though the keyboards are about $90 USD, the shipping to Australia is $80 USB... ouch. Means that out of the total price, half of it would be shipping - seems a waste!

* If I buy a keyboard, and don't like it, I can bring it to work. BUT! Only if it's a quiet one, like Topre or Matias Quiet. I could not bring a Unicomp or Matias Click into work - too loud!

[supamesican]

I believe unicomp has distributors in countries outside the us to get around the shiiping costs. I personally love all 3 switch types, I'm using the alps style right now and I think mine need cleaning but that takes effort and they work great, like jumping off a clif when typing.

I'm certain you'll like all of them.

also dont be afraid to look on your local ebay/equivalent to get around the international shipping if need be

[NewbieOneKenobi]

I believe unicomp has distributors in countries outside the us to get around the shiiping costs.

Yeah, TheKeyboardCompany. Not exactly the cheapest prices around but try paying VAT and customs duties plus cross-continental shipment on your own as a consumer and it's gonna be a much higher number.

[NightCabbage]

Yeah, TheKeyboardCompany. Not exactly the cheapest prices around but try paying VAT and customs duties plus cross-continental shipment on your own as a consumer and it's gonna be a much higher number.

Ah, except they only seem to stock UK layouts with vertical Enter keys

-EDIT-

Ohhhh, so I was thinking about buying the Topre Type Heaven from mechkb.com - would cost $220 inc. shipping. But I just noticed they're selling it on ebay for $185 inc. shipping! (still mechkb.com - just their ebay store)

I wonder why the difference! That is indeed tempting! $35 cheaper...

[NewbieOneKenobi]

Yeah, TheKeyboardCompany. Not exactly the cheapest prices around but try paying VAT and customs duties plus cross-continental shipment on your own as a consumer and it's gonna be a much higher number.

Ah, except they only seem to stock UK layouts with vertical Enter keys

-EDIT-

Ohhhh, so I was thinking about buying the Topre Type Heaven from mechkb.com - would cost $220 inc. shipping. But I just noticed they're selling it on ebay for $185 inc. shipping! (still mechkb.com - just their ebay store)

I wonder why the difference! That is indeed tempting! $35 cheaper...

It must be on an individual-keyboard basis, because they have US layouts for a lot of stuff there, so perhaps that's only Unicomp. My Model M has the UK layout, and I like it that way, somehow. Perhaps because I grew up with it, well, to an extent. My step-father's employer had some ties with England, maybe that was the reason it came with a UK layout, or perhaps UK layouts were popular in Poland in general for some time in the nineties. I don't think the L-shaped enter was such a rarity back then. I'm not even sure which one I prefer. In the UK layout the L-shaped enter doesn't murder my little finger when trying to activate it, and in the US layout right shift is similarly more forgiving. I think after so many years I'm still at risk of hitting backslash instead of enter or getting stuck trying to hit that narrow strip which feels a little understated and small for such an important role as it has.

[supamesican]

dont forget if you really want buckling springs you can tro to get a used used non uk model m or unicomp from ebay. honestly if you go used I'd recommend a model f and just be done with it. finest keyboard I've used

[need]

get a Topre and be done with this hobby.

[NightCabbage]

get a Topre and be done with this hobby.

Heh, probably exactly what I'm going to buy

[dgneo]

Topre! HHKB or 55g Realforce, you really can't go wrong with either.

[UnFocused]

get a Topre and be done with this hobby.

I don't think that always works... I got a Topre and then got interested in vintage MX blacks.

[need]

get a Topre and be done with this hobby.

I don't think that always works... I got a Topre and then got interested in vintage MX blacks.

MX blacks is clearly inferior.
Topre has all the qualities that blacks have, plus it's tactility.

[NewbieOneKenobi]

It does make economic sense to skip intermediate steps if you know where your path leads, so yeah.

On the other hand, I would still at least try all the different MX switches out if possible without buying them or without overpaying or even as gifts (if appropriate), just to know what you're potentially missing out on. There is a minority of people who don't prefer Topre, so it makes sense to at least know what the other switches feel like, especially if you can try a high-end piece without buying (Topre will almost always have the advantage of overall build quality because they only ever put it in high-end boards).

[UnFocused]

MX blacks is clearly inferior.
Topre has all the qualities that blacks have, plus it's tactility.

I don't disagree with you regarding Topre. I have both Topre and vintage MX blacks and enjoy using both as the mood strikes me. I also have and enjoy the buckling springs in my Model M and Model F and MX clears in a QFR.

[NightCabbage]

MX blacks is clearly inferior.
Topre has all the qualities that blacks have, plus it's tactility.

Yea, I don't like keys with no tactility! Even though I do a lot of gaming, and people say Reds (and sometimes Blacks) are good for gaming - it's not for me.

On the other hand, I would still at least try all the different MX switches out if possible without buying them

Luckily, Cherry boards are easily available, so I have had a chance to try them all out (Red, Black, Brown, Clear, Blue, Green). And I must say, I'm not a fan of any of them. I quote like the feel of the Blues (and more so the Greens) - but I cannot like with the hysteresis they have.

At the end of the day, if I were to get any, it'd probably have to be a Brown - but I find the tactility too weak, and the key too linear after that.

[UnFocused]

Luckily, Cherry boards are easily available, so I have had a chance to try them all out (Red, Black, Brown, Clear, Blue, Green). And I must say, I'm not a fan of any of them. I quote like the feel of the Blues (and more so the Greens) - but I cannot like with the hysteresis they have.

At the end of the day, if I were to get any, it'd probably have to be a Brown - but I find the tactility too weak, and the key too linear after that.

So, if you don't like Cherry the easily available options are IBM buckling springs, Alps and Topre. 

[NightCabbage]

So, if you don't like Cherry the easily available options are IBM buckling springs, Alps and Topre.

Exactly my thoughts

My top potential keyboards, probably in this order, are...

Topre Type Heaven
Matias Tactile Pro
Matias Quiet Pro
Unicomp Ultra Classic 103

I'm almost sure I'm going to get the Topre... seem to be pretty popular around here too
(can't get a Realforce sadly - no uniform 55g full size, only those 30-55g variable weighting... ew...)

[supamesican]

Just a word of warning about the type heaven, it has abs plastic caps and the other topre boards(realforce hhkb) have the much better pbt, matias has abs too iirc, and unicomp has pbt.

Now I personally dont care about that, the type heaven is a very good board, but I do think you should know before you hit the buy button

[NightCabbage]

Just a word of warning about the type heaven, it has abs plastic caps and the other topre boards(realforce hhkb) have the much better pbt, matias has abs too iirc, and unicomp has pbt.

Now I personally dont care about that, the type heaven is a very good board, but I do think you should know before you hit the buy button

Yeah, that is something I have considered - but I feel like, as nice as it would be to have pbt, I can live with abs for now

Besides, there are no full-sized 55g Realforce boards anyway, from what I can find! That would be my ideal

In thinking about it all, the only concern I have with the Topre is - what if I don't find the actual key feel good? I'm used to using a good rubber dome board... I like that you always know if and when the key is activated. It's very clear.

When you think about it, the Topre is basically a robber dome board right? How could it feel so different from a standard rubber dome board?

[supamesican]

this is what normal rubber dome boards use https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/30/Keyboard_Construction_Layer.JPG

THIS is what topre has http://imgur.com/gHVVKI0 yes there is a spring under it(where the hybrid between normal rubber dome and mechanical that is topre switches come from)

yes both are rubber but   that doesnt mean much. Its the same as mcdonalds hamburgers
 and this http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3677/9414999017_777b303c3e.jpg in terms of difference.

[jacobolus]

yes both are rubber but that doesnt mean much. Its the same as mcdonalds hamburgers and this http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3677/9414999017_777b303c3e.jpg in terms of difference.

That link looks like someone took a picture of a mcdonalds billboard and a picture of a subway billboard, and photoshopped it into an inedible freak-of-nature sandwich tower. Not sure what it has to do with keyboards.

As for Topre, it’s pretty much like a regular rubber dome board from the 1980s as far as I’m concerned. I’ll type on it if it’s plugged into the computer I’m using, but it’s hardly an inspiring experience and not worth spending particular effort or money on. YMMV.

Luckily, if you buy a used one you can resell it for about the same price, so at worst you’re out the shipping. Doesn’t hurt to try.

[NightCabbage]

As for Topre, it’s pretty much like a regular rubber dome board from the 1980s as far as I’m concerned. I’ll type on it if it’s plugged into the computer I’m using, but it’s hardly an inspiring experience and not worth spending particular effort or money on. YMMV.

Ah, see that's what I'm worried about... that I'll spend $200 on a keyboard, and it won't be much better than what I've already got.

Other choice is a Matias Tactile Pro 4... At least that would feel different

[SenorCit]

This is actually the exact same thing that annoys me about MX Blues. Haven't had the same issue with buckling springs, MX Browns, or Matias Quiet Click. The latter is really a great switch, more tactile, heavier and quieter than the MX Brown. Too bad my Matias died on me..


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Bigpock]

I wouldn't get any of the 4 boards you mentioned in the OP

[FoxWolf1]

If you want to test whether you really like tactile ALPS-style switches, you could always buy a D07-135, then either a) upgrade if you like the feel, or b) just move on if you don't.

[Woolybully67]

I am quiet tempted to buy one of the Matias boards, though I'm not entirely sure which... The keyboards don't have a lot of features, but I don't really require too many. Mainly I'm annoyed they've changed the standard layout, to remove the right Windows and Context keys, and replace them with a single (useless) Fn key (that only does Play/Next/Prev on Esc/F1/F2). But other than this, they seem pretty good. And I think I'll love the actual switches!

I just joined on here after my first mechanical keyboard purchase which happens to be a Matias Quiet Pro. With regards to your post above, it turns out Matias HAS been listening to the people out there who wanted a more vanilla layout without a Fn key. It's not 100% to your liking but there is now a right context key there, still no right Win key. Maybe you could use autohotkey or something else to remap that. The response I got from support was that they have not gotten around to updating all their marketing materials yet to reflect the change so most pages still show the media keys.

Here's a picture of the most current layout:


I bought mine from here: https://jet.com/product/Matias-Quiet-Pro-Keyboard-for-PC-Black-USB-with-3-port-USB-20-hub/6d4a2f2b3e0a4c23b82109f728fa7658. That is an awesome place to purchase the board because first time customers get 15% off (coupon code 15NOW but you can probably find others on google) so you wind up with a steal. My total came out to $119 shipped.

This isn't going to help your decision making much but previously I tried out a few friends' cherry boards and didn't find the experience to be overwhelmingly positive. Plus the keyboards I saw at most of the usual places looked more like they belonged at an EDM concert than on my desk, I just wanted something basic without a thousand LEDs. When I was shopping around it seemed like with cherry boards the more basic you want the higher price you have to pay and I couldn't justify that cost with my experience testing them out.

Like I said this is my first mechanical so I'm by no means an expert and haven't had the pleasure of trying a topre but I can see myself hanging onto this matias for a long, long time. It's a fair bit quieter than the rubber dome it replaced and feels infinitely more satisfying to do work on.

Longer story: I am actually the opposite side of the spectrum, I bought this keyboard BECAUSE it had the media keys. For work I have a ton of VMs, shell sessions, etc open at all times and like to have my music on in the background. I often get calls and need to mute, pause, etc and it's a pain to fumble around to get back to whatever media window I have open at the time so media keys are a must. When I received the keyboard I was really excited and disappointed at the same time. Typing was a dream but I sorely missed the extra function keys.

I initially tried to work around it with autohotkey but there were some weird behaviors it would give when sending the media key functions like sending characters through to the virtual machines I had opened or it just wouldn't work at all. Finally, I contacted Matias support and arranged for an exchange for their older board with the media keys and that just arrived today. It works perfectly and doesn't have any of the strange behaviors that I got with AHK. I absolutely love the way this keyboard feels, having to wait the 10 days for my exchange to arrive while going back to my rubber dome was excruciating.

I may post my thoughts on this board in a separate thread if I ever get the time, but since I love typing on this keyboard I might wind up doing it just to have something to write

[NightCabbage]

I just joined on here after my first mechanical keyboard purchase which happens to be a Matias Quiet Pro. With regards to your post above, it turns out Matias HAS been listening to the people out there who wanted a more vanilla layout without a Fn key.

Oh, that's cool - I didn't know that

I wonder if I could confirm the version before I buy...

Doesn't look like I can use jet.com from Australia.

Yeah, I love autohotkey Always keep a script running!

Hmmm another recommendation for the Quiet over the Tactile Clicky version

[Brannan]

The best way for me was to go to meets and just try them there. thats how I picked up my poker 3

[NightCabbage]

The best way for me was to go to meets and just try them there. thats how I picked up my poker 3

Heh, sadly where I am, I don't think that's going to happen

Australia - and furthermore, Tasmania - has a lower population - and thus the amount of keyboard enthusiasts are a lot lower hehe

[NewbieOneKenobi]

When you think about it, the Topre is basically a robber dome board right? How could it feel so different from a standard rubber dome board?

As someone who's only just bought a Novatouch (CM Storm with Topre) but spent a week typing on it, a lot: It feels like a rubber dome, but it also feels like a mech board. You could say it's both rubber and mech as opposed to in between, which explains it nicely, I think. Scissors is something between rubber and mech, where the scissor is obviously a very basic representation of a switch, more akin to a stabilizer. Topre, on the other hand, has rubber domes reinforced each with an individual spring contained inside (where spring is what symbolically represents a mech switch in our lovely little subculture) with a real switch on top of them. Hence, basically, there is a rod that pushes a spring, but there's also a rubber dome. Thus, it's both mechanical and rubber-dome. And it feels like two in one, in a way.

I would say the best rubber domes that have ever been produced probably get somewhat close to this — here's the trick: in price also. Those rubbers ain't cheap. But you can still experience a mitigated metal feel that rubber domes just can't have, even if you make them tactile and actuating close to the top and painful to bottom out (which some rubbers are). And durability and consistency is an issue.

I could probably mistake it for a rubber dome in a shop if I didn't know better. If it was introduced as a mech board with no mention of the capacitive/rubber/hybrid thing, I might believe that too.

Another metaphor I can think about is that whereas tactile MX switches or IBM BS switches feel metallic, this is closer to high-quality plastic. The kind of plastic that isn't metal but neither is it particularly cheap or gross in comparison.

… And a whole different keyboard once you remove the spring from the spacebar. Something you can't do so easily with MX browns if they just use a green switch, which means you're stuck with a heavy spacebar.

Bottom line: I want uniform 25g Topre, and I'm probably set.

[supamesican]

When you think about it, the Topre is basically a robber dome board right? How could it feel so different from a standard rubber dome board?

As someone who's only just bought a Novatouch (CM Storm with Topre) but spent a week typing on it, a lot: It feels like a rubber dome, but it also feels like a mech board. You could say it's both rubber and mech as opposed to in between, which explains it nicely, I think.

There is a reason cm markets the novatouch as "hybrid" switches, its got the quiet and well rubber of a GOOD rubber and the spring of mechanical.

[NightCabbage]

Hmmm, I'm looking at the 55g Topre Realforce 87U.

A couple of questions...

a) What is the light on the Left Ctrl key for?
b) Is the black text on the black version too hard to read? (I'll be using it in a reasonably lit room)
c) When Num Lock is on, the appropriate keys effectively become numpad keys? ie. hitting "U" will type Numpad 4
d) How do Num Lock and Scroll Lock share the same key?

[UnFocused]

a) What is the light on the Left Ctrl key for?
b) Is the black text on the black version too hard to read? (I'll be using it in a reasonably lit room)
c) When Num Lock is on, the appropriate keys effectively become numpad keys? ie. hitting "U" will type Numpad 4
d) How do Num Lock and Scroll Lock share the same key?

a) You can swap caps and left ctrl, so that LED is for caps when you've swapped them.

b) It is in a dimly lit room, but I rarely have problems because I touch type. The only times I have problems is when I'm one handed typing and looking for symbols. If you don't think you can deal with the black version, there is a white 55g as well.

c) Yes

d) I've never done it, but I believe shift-num lock enables scroll lock.

[NightCabbage]

Ah bugger, no uniform 55g 87U in Australia

[NewbieOneKenobi]

b) Is the black text on the black version too hard to read? (I'll be using it in a reasonably lit room)

Get rid of the problem by accelarating your touch-typing learning curve a bit — you're probably already more than a halfway there, as is the case with people who just simply type a lot. It results in bad technique, such as in my case, but the skill eventually sort of completes its own acqusition on its own, given time. So memorize punctuation keys and you're probably set. I don't think you have to look at alpha keys much or else you probably wouldn't even be talking about Topre

[Zoide]

Ah bugger, no uniform 55g 87U in Australia

What did you end up buying, and how did it turn out?

[rowdy]

Ah bugger, no uniform 55g 87U in Australia

https://mechkb.com/catalogsearch/advanced/result/?switchtype%5B%5D=179&keycaptype=

In stock too!

[NightCabbage]

What did you end up buying, and how did it turn out?

Hey! I ended up buying a Matias Tactile Pro PC. Just got it, so barely had a chance to play yet...

But, so far, from my testing, it seems really good!

Hysteresis is not a problem - yay!
The keys have a nice clicky tactile feel to them.
Also they're not as loud as I was expecting, which is great.

So I'm glad I didn't buy the quiet version, because this one has a more tactile feel, and the noise level seems fine.

I think I made the right choice!