Alps Appreciation Thread

[E3E]

One thing to note is that the time at which the switch clicks and actuates isn't exactly 1:1. I tried lowering the slider on a blue switch as lightly as possible to get it to click, and with several, I was able to get it to click before actuation. The difference is incredibly tiny and they are close enough to just say they're the same, but the points are actually slightly off.

Here were weights I took using similar methods that Chyros has, minus the scale to get an exact weight, but US coins are pretty crippled anyway in terms of how small of an increment you can use.

These were all bottom out weights. What was the bottom out for Ambers, Chyros?

For almost all but some linears, I noticed bottom out wasn't far off from actuation because after the tactile leaf, the resistance drops pretty sharply. Like, for instance, SKCM Brown without tactile leaves have 50g springs, and I measured the actuation at 47.5.

Bottom out weights:

SKCM Brown - 75g (tactile leaf causes the stiffness)

SKCM Green - same as above

SKCL (linear) Brown - 75g ~ 60g to actuate

SKCL (linear) Cream - 70g

SKCL Yellow - 65g

Salmon - 65g

White - 65g

Blue - 60g this literally actuated at 60 gf when I tested again.

Orange - 55g

Green - 52g

[chyros]

Wow, those blues at ~62gf seem quite light. I kind of selfishly wanted you to do the measurement in the exact same conditions and equipment as for ambers, to have results as comparable as possible

I bet the ambers would have the bump on the left side of that chart. Do we know why the blacks and creams have two bumps instead of one? In programmer terms, is it a (condition-related) bug or a feature of the design?

Edit: I guess oranges and whites have the same second bump, but it is not as pronounced, and linears also have what corresponds to a second bump in clickys and tactiles.

Yes, of course the best comparisons are between measurements conducted under the same conditions. Normally I'm satisfied using that force graph or the Alps catalog, but because there isn't one for amber Alps, and Daniel B's measured 80-100 gf was clearly bull**** (or at least, didn't apply to my switches), I conducted them myself . Essentially I wanted to bring to attention that they're slightly heavier than other Alps switches, but nowhere near as ridiculous as their reputation says.

[E3E]

Yeah, I'm not sure why the switches supposedly rated at 70 gf bottomed at 65g. Blues, according to the data card with SKCM Cream, are supposed to have an "operating force" of 70 gf, so I'm not sure if the official material can even be too trusted. They are much lighter than 70 g

[ED2914]

While the caps might play a factor, I'm a little doubtful of this. In my experience, it's the switch top housings that create binding. Replacing those with fresh top housings restores a smooth feel where off-center presses pose no problems. I used to think Alps had an off-center issue too, but then I realized it was the switches' condition.

Interesting, I just now messed around with AEK alphas and F-Row keycaps on a few different boards in various condition. My quick n' dirty tests seemed line up with what you were saying. When pressing off center, condition played a big role and the key's profile added to the problem.

After I replaced the top housing and the slider of the blue alps with an early white alps, binding problem has gone. As smooth as normal blue alps with a slightly higher pitched sound. It may be the best solution for these blue alps now.

[alh84001]

SKCM Green - same as above

And this is the same for pine and bamboo?

[chyros]

Yeah, I'm not sure why the switches supposedly rated at 70 gf bottomed at 65g. Blues, according to the data card with SKCM Cream, are supposed to have an "operating force" of 70 gf, so I'm not sure if the official material can even be too trusted. They are much lighter than 70 g

Pretty sure the instruments Alps used are a lot more accurate than the ones Silencium has . I mainly just use the graph comparatively .

[E3E]

SKCM Green - same as above

And this is the same for pine and bamboo?

I'll make a check on them again. There's something that feels different ish between SKCM Brown and SKCM Green pine, but I've always felt that they were very similar. Bamboos feels very different, but are definitely stiff to a point. When I fiddled around with my NeXT with SKCM Cream, the Creams required less force than the Greens. 

The tactile spring causes the stiffness since it's well, pretty damn springy, haha. Its kind of ramp like shape keeps pushing against the slider for most of the travel.

When I measured them, I could sometimes get SKCM Green to bottom at 70g, but it was more reliably bottomed out at 75g.

Pretty sure the instruments Alps used are a lot more accurate than the ones Silencium has . I mainly just use the graph comparatively .

Derp, yeah. Here I am measuring with coins. Of course Alps would be far more accurate, haha. It is nice to see those force graphs either way though.

[chyros]

The reason I think the neon greens feel so stiff is because the tactile bump is all right at the top. The official force curve (ironic that we know so much of such a rare switch) shows it's 70 gf just like the rest so I think it's more the SHAPE of the feeling than the actual weight of it tbh.

We don't know if the neon greens in the catalog are pine or bamboo, but it's from 1994, so I guess they'd be bamboo, right?

[Hypersphere]

@Chyros: Regarding precision mass detection, in my analytical chemistry lab course, if we made mistakes, the instructor banished us from the Mettler balances and we had to go back to the twin-pan analytical balances we initially trained on. These relics were actually quite sensitive, and the twin pan made it easy to see that you were actually comparing masses. I recall handling the weights with ivory-tipped forceps. The more advanced twin-pan balances were "Chain-o-Matics" -- you could turn a crank to dial in the last decimal by altering the fraction of a hanging gold chain contributing its mass to the right-hand side of the balance. I also had occasion to use a Cahn microbalance -- capable of a sensitivity of 0.1 microgram.

Thanks for displaying the force-displacement curves for Alps switches. I wish the creators of such graphs would keep color-blind people in mind. I am not really color blind, just color challenged -- I have difficulty seeing the difference between certain colors or correctly identifying some colors against certain background colors. It helps me if color figures can be interpreted correctly when they are rendered in gray scale.

This morning I checked out my Zenith Z-150 black label with linear green Alps. The switches are very smooth but I prefer some tactile feedback. I had also hoped that the steel back on the case would make the Zenith feel more solid to type on than my Leading Edge DC-2014, but it didn't feel more solid to me. In addition, a major disappointment was that there was one dead key on the board -- the C key. I haven't determined the cause as yet. BTW, which "green" Alps are in the Z-150?

Among Alps switches that I have tried thus far, my favorites are still the white Alps in my Northgate Omnikey 101 -- they have an ideal combination of weight, crisp tactility, and subtle clickiness.

On the force-displacement graph, I am having trouble distinguishing the white curve from the cream curve. Do the initial peaks correspond to actuation? Which one has the sharp spike versus smooth curve at the initial peak, and which one has the "aftershock" peaks? The initial peak for blues appears later than that for several of the others -- is this difference significant and does it correspond to different actuation points? If I am interpreting all this correctly, perhaps one reason I like whites better than blues is that I prefer a higher actuation point.

[quasistellar]

smooth curve is cream, sharp spike is white.  Both have a second hump--the cream is sooner and larger, the white is later and slightly smaller.

My like of Orange is confirmed on that graph:  I prefer light switches with tactile bumps high on the stroke, and it seems Orange best represents that.  They also have a relatively flat force curve after the initial tactile bump, which I also prefer (I hate ramping force so much e.g. Cherry Clears).

I noticed the 's' key on my m0116 doesn't work--I'll have to dig into that and see what's up.  I've been so busy lately I've been neglecting that board--it might end up being my work board I like it so much.  I LOVE my modded novatouch, but I just can't get used to having the tenkey on the left side, and I don't think I can easily go back to a full sized board now that I've gotten used to the better position provided by a TKL.

[chyros]

@Chyros: Regarding precision mass detection, in my analytical chemistry lab course, if we made mistakes, the instructor banished us from the Mettler balances and we had to go back to the twin-pan analytical balances we initially trained on. These relics were actually quite sensitive, and the twin pan made it easy to see that you were actually comparing masses. I recall handling the weights with ivory-tipped forceps. The more advanced twin-pan balances were "Chain-o-Matics" -- you could turn a crank to dial in the last decimal by altering the fraction of a hanging gold chain contributing its mass to the right-hand side of the balance. I also had occasion to use a Cahn microbalance -- capable of a sensitivity of 0.1 microgram.

Thanks for displaying the force-displacement curves for Alps switches. I wish the creators of such graphs would keep color-blind people in mind. I am not really color blind, just color challenged -- I have difficulty seeing the difference between certain colors or correctly identifying some colors against certain background colors. It helps me if color figures can be interpreted correctly when they are rendered in gray scale.

This morning I checked out my Zenith Z-150 black label with linear green Alps. The switches are very smooth but I prefer some tactile feedback. I had also hoped that the steel back on the case would make the Zenith feel more solid to type on than my Leading Edge DC-2014, but it didn't feel more solid to me. In addition, a major disappointment was that there was one dead key on the board -- the C key. I haven't determined the cause as yet. BTW, which "green" Alps are in the Z-150?

Among Alps switches that I have tried thus far, my favorites are still the white Alps in my Northgate Omnikey 101 -- they have an ideal combination of weight, crisp tactility, and subtle clickiness.

On the force-displacement graph, I am having trouble distinguishing the white curve from the cream curve. Do the initial peaks correspond to actuation? Which one has the sharp spike versus smooth curve at the initial peak, and which one has the "aftershock" peaks? The initial peak for blues appears later than that for several of the others -- is this difference significant and does it correspond to different actuation points? If I am interpreting all this correctly, perhaps one reason I like whites better than blues is that I prefer a higher actuation point.

Yes, that's actually the balance I use as well, a Mettler Toledo, the top-of-the-line massively expensive self-calibrating ones they use at GSK .

The Z-150 has linear green Alps, not tactile neon green Alps.

The first bump is the tactile event, I think the second one is the contact leaf which imparts a small amount of tactility to ALL Alps switches. This is why there is a small tactile bump even on linears and two tactile bumps on tactile and clicky switches.

Some people say the chassis impacts the keyfeel but I haven't noticed any difference there. I have a bunch of white Alps boards in great, similar condition, in a variety of chassis, but they all feel pretty comparable. The age and condition is a much greater factor. The chassis will considerably impact the typing noise though, obviously.

[emdude]

The first bump is the tactile event, I think the second one is the contact leaf which imparts a small amount of tactility to ALL Alps switches. This is why there is a small tactile bump even on linears and two tactile bumps on tactile and clicky switches.

This is quite noticeable on Cream Damped switches (which I assume is what 'Cream' is referring to on the graph?), and it's probably why SKCM Blacks are considered to feel rather rough too.

Out of curiosity, do you notice the tactility from the contact leaf on linearised Blacks?

[PollandAkuma]

Hi ALPS fans, I'm new here. I've been interested in getting an Atreus with either Matias clicky or quiet click, but I'm worried that it'll be heavy, since I hate hate hate scissors switches (62-5g?). But on the other hand, I know ALPS can be lubed and stuff even without desoldering, so thats a plus. Right now I'm deciding between ALPS Atreus or HHKB. What do you think I should go for?

Matias switches aren't exactly the same as Alps, but they're related for sure. Neither are known for being particularly light switches tbh xD . I'd advise against lubricating Alps and similar switches as no-one has found a lube that really works well with them yet.

Do you weigh the specific coins you used on a balance? How many switches do you test per board? Also, do you try to gently re-seat coins after you stacked them?

Well, for blues I tested bare switches, since I don't have them in the board yet. Haven't weighed the coins, but I always use the same set of nickels, and they shouldn't deviate much from 5g as they are specified. I also try to get the stack as straight as possible and as level as possible. I tested some 10 amber switches, and for blues, I took out just random 3 out of the bag.

Do you use only nickels or smaller coins too? I try to use different combinations of coins to narrow it down to as small a range (1-2 g) as possible. The heavy weigh of the blues you mentioned is really weird, it's much higher than we have on record, are they in good condition?

OMG THOMAS REPLIED

Nice vids man

Thanks for the reply I think I might go the (t)horny pathy of HHKB cult

[chyros]

Hi ALPS fans, I'm new here. I've been interested in getting an Atreus with either Matias clicky or quiet click, but I'm worried that it'll be heavy, since I hate hate hate scissors switches (62-5g?). But on the other hand, I know ALPS can be lubed and stuff even without desoldering, so thats a plus. Right now I'm deciding between ALPS Atreus or HHKB. What do you think I should go for?

Matias switches aren't exactly the same as Alps, but they're related for sure. Neither are known for being particularly light switches tbh xD . I'd advise against lubricating Alps and similar switches as no-one has found a lube that really works well with them yet.

Do you weigh the specific coins you used on a balance? How many switches do you test per board? Also, do you try to gently re-seat coins after you stacked them?

Well, for blues I tested bare switches, since I don't have them in the board yet. Haven't weighed the coins, but I always use the same set of nickels, and they shouldn't deviate much from 5g as they are specified. I also try to get the stack as straight as possible and as level as possible. I tested some 10 amber switches, and for blues, I took out just random 3 out of the bag.

Do you use only nickels or smaller coins too? I try to use different combinations of coins to narrow it down to as small a range (1-2 g) as possible. The heavy weigh of the blues you mentioned is really weird, it's much higher than we have on record, are they in good condition?

OMG THOMAS REPLIED

Nice vids man

Thanks for the reply I think I might go the (t)horny pathy of HHKB cult

Thanks mate .

The first bump is the tactile event, I think the second one is the contact leaf which imparts a small amount of tactility to ALL Alps switches. This is why there is a small tactile bump even on linears and two tactile bumps on tactile and clicky switches.

This is quite noticeable on Cream Damped switches (which I assume is what 'Cream' is referring to on the graph?), and it's probably why SKCM Blacks are considered to feel rather rough too.

Out of curiosity, do you notice the tactility from the contact leaf on linearised Blacks?

You notice it on all Alps switches, but almost unconsciously on linear ones.

[Hypersphere]

Thanks for the clarification of colors and interpretation of peaks on the Alps force-displacement curves.

I think I've found and cured the issue with the non-responsive C key on my Zenith Z-150. Apparently it was a dirty switch. I opened it, cleaned it with 70% isopropanol, dried it, blew it out with canned air for good measure, and reasembled it. Now the switch works.

BTW, removing the switch top was a breeze, thanks to the handy Alps switch tool that I bought from "mrbishop". However, putting the switch back together is much more of a challenge, because the spring falls out if you try reassembly with the switch in the normal position. I had to hold the keyboard at a right angle to the bench and gingerly ease the switch top back on. Any tips about how to reassemble Alps switches would be most welcome!

I''ve also discovered the little chirp in the Z-150 that I've read about. At first, I immediately deactivated it using Esc+Alt, but now I've turned it back on. The novelty may soon wear thin, but for the moment, I enjoy the auditory feedback that is lacking in the green Alps switches. The sound is reminiscent of the chirping control panels on the Enterprise in STNG.

[E3E]

The Z-150 has linear green Alps, not tactile neon green Alps.

The first bump is the tactile event, I think the second one is the contact leaf which imparts a small amount of tactility to ALL Alps switches. This is why there is a small tactile bump even on linears and two tactile bumps on tactile and clicky switches.

Some people say the chassis impacts the keyfeel but I haven't noticed any difference there. I have a bunch of white Alps boards in great, similar condition, in a variety of chassis, but they all feel pretty comparable. The age and condition is a much greater factor. The chassis will considerably impact the typing noise though, obviously.

That's the interesting bit with tactile brown and green. Since the leaves are so similar to the contact leaf, I guess there isn't that second bump lower down.

I don't think chasis effects feel per se, more so the acoustics. The plate is definitely a significant factor as well as the caps.

I don't think having a heavier case really effects feel in so much as it does just give the board a sense of being sturdy and not moving easily on the desk. Nothing changes when it comes to switch feel.

All of the metal bottom keyboards I've seen also mount their plates onto the top plastic housing. I'm not sure how this effects feel compared to the more typical bottom mounting style. Most top mounted plates have rubber pads stuck o the PCB in the middle to act as standoffs. Maybe there's more flex in these top-mounted boards? I'm not sure.

The reason I think the neon greens feel so stiff is because the tactile bump is all right at the top. The official force curve (ironic that we know so much of such a rare switch) shows it's 70 gf just like the rest so I think it's more the SHAPE of the feeling than the actual weight of it tbh.

We don't know if the neon greens in the catalog are pine or bamboo, but it's from 1994, so I guess they'd be bamboo, right?

Hmm, well the biggest difference between browns/greens and the others is that their tactile springs impart most of the resistance. I know tactile leaves in general do add a bit more resistance to the switch, but it's impossible to lighten the weight on SKCM Green or SKCM Brown, no matter how light of a return spring you've got in there. Browns have a crazy light spring, as mentioned.

[E3E]

I do get kind of annoyed when people say that only Alps has this tactile kind of issue where the contact leaf creates minute tactility. Cherry MX is similar in that the stem has to overcome a small bump in the contact leaf in order to close the contacts, so Cherry isn't really any different there. It shouldn't be anyway.

Another complaint on Alps is key cap wobble, when Cherry has pretty much the same amount of wobble itself.

[emdude]

I do get kind of annoyed when people say that only Alps has this tactile kind of issue where the contact leaf creates minute tactility. Cherry MX is similar in that the stem has to overcome a small bump in the contact leaf in order to close the contacts, so Cherry isn't really any different there. It shouldn't be anyway.

Another complaint on Alps is key cap wobble, when Cherry has pretty much the same amount of wobble itself.

I haven't tried linear MX myself, but that makes intuitive sense.  It's strange though, all of the force graphs of MX Black/Red that I can find do not seem to indicate that tactility?  Are they just badly done or simplified?

I've found this force graph, looks like the Alps one so it might have been done by the same person?



On a random note, I think it's rather amusing that the force graph of the Brother buckling spring somewhat resembles the green Alps switch.

[Hypersphere]

It would be good if someone were to define "wobble" precisely and do quantitative measurements of this property of various switches.

[chyros]

I do get kind of annoyed when people say that only Alps has this tactile kind of issue where the contact leaf creates minute tactility. Cherry MX is similar in that the stem has to overcome a small bump in the contact leaf in order to close the contacts, so Cherry isn't really any different there. It shouldn't be anyway.

Well Cherry force curves show that they don't have a similar dimple:



However, that's not to say that such a bump is a disadvantage. In fact, I blame the fact that they're so linear for the well-known boring nature of the switch — in truth they are really ghastly dull Oo .

Thanks for the clarification of colors and interpretation of peaks on the Alps force-displacement curves.

I think I've found and cured the issue with the non-responsive C key on my Zenith Z-150. Apparently it was a dirty switch. I opened it, cleaned it with 70% isopropanol, dried it, blew it out with canned air for good measure, and reasembled it. Now the switch works.

BTW, removing the switch top was a breeze, thanks to the handy Alps switch tool that I bought from "mrbishop". However, putting the switch back together is much more of a challenge, because the spring falls out if you try reassembly with the switch in the normal position. I had to hold the keyboard at a right angle to the bench and gingerly ease the switch top back on. Any tips about how to reassemble Alps switches would be most welcome!

I''ve also discovered the little chirp in the Z-150 that I've read about. At first, I immediately deactivated it using Esc+Alt, but now I've turned it back on. The novelty may soon wear thin, but for the moment, I enjoy the auditory feedback that is lacking in the green Alps switches. The sound is reminiscent of the chirping control panels on the Enterprise in STNG.

Have a look through my Alps cleaning tutorial, it shows how I do it:

[emdude]

It would be good if someone were to define "wobble" precisely and do quantitative measurements of this property of various switches.

So far, I've only seen wobbling being a complaint when it came to Matias switches.  Perhaps it has to do with the construction of the switchplate (single-pronged contact leaf)?

[E3E]

You know, I did notice that force curve graph after posting. It's strange though. With the top housing off, I can feel the tactility from the slider pressing down, even when I'm careful to center the stem during the press.

With it on, yeah, I don't feel any tactility. Huh.

However, that's not to say that such a bump is a disadvantage. In fact, I blame the fact that they're so linear for the well-known boring nature of the switch — in truth they are really ghastly dull Oo .

Yeah, agreed. Cherry switches are overall a bit more boring than Alps. With all its variety, Alps is just fun to play with. I can see the lack of key cap availability, support, and maybe the reduced travel being the main turn off points for most people though.

Hmm, I've been curious about MX Speed switches for a while though. The travel is reduced to the point of being less than Alps, albeit done in a pretty cheap way, like most of the ways Cherry achieves differences in feel.

[chyros]

It would be good if someone were to define "wobble" precisely and do quantitative measurements of this property of various switches.

So far, I've only seen wobbling being a complaint when it came to Matias switches.  Perhaps it has to do with the construction of the switchplate (single-pronged contact leaf)?

Wobble is another thing that's often misrepresented and over-de-hyped, sadly I suspect I'm part of the cause as it suddenly became a big topic right after I posted my Matrox video in which I showed that Space Invaders have virtually no wobble. Wobble is generally harmless and can actually be beneficial however — the only issue is when the slider wobbles AND the switch has no room for this, in which case you get binding. On designs in which there is room for that, wobble can actually PREVENT binding. Ironically, although Space Invaders have the least wobble of ANY switch I've ever seen, they can bind, even on small keys, with dirty or well-used boards, because the slider and case have so much contact area that any slight nonorthogonal force causes friction unless the switch is in pristine condition.

[Hypersphere]

@Chyros: Thanks for re-posting your video. It was most helpful for putting the switch back together -- which was the part that was troubling me.

As for taking off the top of the switch, i would highly recommend the Plexiglass (Perspex) tool made and sold by "mrbishop". I think the version I have might have been dubbed the "Alps Trident":


https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79766.0;nowap

This thing really works! Push down, pull up, the switch top come off neatly attached to the tool. I think that E3E has made a similar tool, but I do not have that one.
 

[MandrewDavis]

Never tried Matias switches. The only situation where wobble has ever bothered me was when using F-Row AEK caps and previous versions of Zealios. Is wobble usually more a factor of housings or contact leafs?

[Hypersphere]

Although I notice the wobble on Matias Click switches, it does not really bother me. In fact, in keeping with what Chyros has said, I think that wobble could actually be a good thing, perhaps helping to compensate for off-center key presses.

Matias Quiet switches do not seem to wobble significantly. However, I have not defined wobble or measured it. I might be misled by the clatter that Matias Click switches make when you brush the tops of the keycaps. Matias Quiet switches do not clatter any more noticeably than any other switches when the keycaps are lightly brushed with a fingertip.

Regarding binding, I have only noticed this with Alps or Matias switches when using keycaps that were not quite designed for the switch -- that is, when the keycap stem was slightly too large for the switch stem. In such situations, my theory is that binding occurs because the switch stem has expanded slightly to accommodate the slightly oversized keycap stem. However, I have no objective measurements to validate or refute this theory.

[chyros]

@Chyros: Thanks for re-posting your video. It was most helpful for putting the switch back together -- which was the part that was troubling me.

As for taking off the top of the switch, i would highly recommend the Plexiglass (Perspex) tool made and sold by "mrbishop". I think the version I have might have been dubbed the "Alps Trident":

(Attachment Link)
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79766.0;nowap

This thing really works! Push down, pull up, the switch top come off neatly attached to the tool. I think that E3E has made a similar tool, but I do not have that one.

Yeah I'd love to give it a go, I've heard good things .

[Wingpad]

I got in my i-Rocks Fun keyboard today with their blue, clicky switches. I am not sure what I was expecting but they're really weird. The clicking noise is different from both Cherry and Alps switches (although it's closer to Cherry switches) and it's rather annoying. The key feel is pretty decent, though, somewhere in between White and Salmon Alps if I had to try and place it. Very tactile and responsive. Since they are weighted at 45g they're rather light, and I'm hoping to compare them to 'lightened' Blues at some point (once sprit's Alps springs GB comes along). I'll try and throw together a typing demonstration but I don't have a nice camera with me so it'll probably be crappy. Feel free to ask me anything.

[E3E]

I got in my i-Rocks Fun keyboard today with their blue, clicky switches. I am not sure what I was expecting but they're really weird. The clicking noise is different from both Cherry and Alps switches (although it's closer to Cherry switches) and it's rather annoying. The key feel is pretty decent, though, somewhere in between White and Salmon Alps if I had to try and place it. Very tactile and responsive. Since they are weighted at 45g they're rather light, and I'm hoping to compare them to 'lightened' Blues at some point (once sprit's Alps springs GB comes along). I'll try and throw together a typing demonstration but I don't have a nice camera with me so it'll probably be crappy. Feel free to ask me anything.

is that 45g actuation or bottom? You could take some springs from Alps SKCL Green or Alps SKCM Brown if you want to toy with a lighter weight in the blues.

 I actually considered putting SKCL Green springs in all of my SKCM Blue switches for my Orion, but after having a vintage that had a space bar and backspace that got stuck because of worn return springs, I thought it might not be the best idea. 'Course, you can always just mix up the springs on the keys that need more weight to return properly.

[unoab]

It would be good if someone were to define "wobble" precisely and do quantitative measurements of this property of various switches.

So far, I've only seen wobbling being a complaint when it came to Matias switches.  Perhaps it has to do with the construction of the switchplate (single-pronged contact leaf)?

When I was assembling my clueboard and deciding if I was going to use matias or orange alps, I did some measurements on the housings and sliders.  What I found seemed to be that the dimensions of the housing (channels for the sliders and openings) were about the same, but it was the sliders on the matias switches that were a little bit smaller, so it seems there is a bit more tolerance and play with respect to the sliders than the original alps design.  (which made me decide to transplant orange sliders into matias housings, and they do have less wobble than matias ones)

As to quantifying "wobble" I would probably measure it as two measurements, the horizontal and vertical range of motion of a slider from normal when no force is applied to it (it could be measured as cumulative side to side travel 'eg. 0.3mm' or a range to be applied to normal 'eg. ±0.15mm' ).  One could probably rig up switches in a plate with two walls (or posts, or anything rigidly fixed to the plate and thus the body of the switch to reference properly) and take measurements while applying lateral force to the slider to move it to its extents to measure this, one measurement in the x and one in the y direction.  Then you would have a methodology and measurement for comparison for between different switch types.  I have not seen that anyone has done this yet.

[Wingpad]

is that 45g actuation or bottom? You could take some springs from Alps SKCL Green or Alps SKCM Brown if you want to toy with a lighter weight in the blues.

I stand corrected, the i-Rocks site says they are spec'd at 35 gf to operate/actuate. I am not sure what the bottoming out force is; I will test that at some point or another.

Oh, and just to touch on the build quality of the board itself... it's rather cruddy. The board has lots of flex/play and it's almost entirely made of plastic. The stock keycaps are rather thin and I want to do away with them ASAP. Might swap the switches into an AT101W just for fun (if I can figure out how to, time for some good ol' fashioned keyboard science!) or (EDIT: There doesn't appear to be a way to make these pin-compatible with Alps switches) make a custom 60% but I'm not sure I like them that much yet. Part of me just wants to do it just to have a really unique board (even if I'm not a big fan of 'em) but the money could be better spent on an Omnikey to swap Blue Alps into

[fohat.digs]

but the money could be better spent on an Omnikey to swap Blue Alps into

Getting a nice Omnikey is step 1. Work outwards from the core.

Orange Alps is a great easy quick choice for the initial project, and then when and if you find a baggie full of blues (or whatever else you fancy) at some point in the future, transplant again.

Since you will not be bending over any legs, the subsequent soldering projects will be easy and painless (more so if you opt for real old-fashioned nasty lead solder).

[Wingpad]

but the money could be better spent on an Omnikey to swap Blue Alps into

Getting a nice Omnikey is step 1. Work outwards from the core.

Orange Alps is a great easy quick choice for the initial project, and then when and if you find a baggie full of blues (or whatever else you fancy) at some point in the future, transplant again.

Since you will not be bending over any legs, the subsequent soldering projects will be easy and painless (more so if you opt for real old-fashioned nasty lead solder).

Finding the Omnikey is the only thing I need to do since I have several baggies of nice Blue Alps (I posted a picture of 'em a while back).

Also, I have a nice Orange Alps board since my AT101W swap is complete. Pictures of that will be coming in once I pick up the bottom row keycaps from storage (aka my parents' basement). EDIT: It'll look a lot like the Pearl/Pebble board you posted here.

[klennkellon]

I finally managed to try a whole board of MX Browns today, the tactility wasn't as weak as I thought it would be, but they felt rough as late black Alps. It did make me want to try Zealios or MX Clears.

[Wingpad]

I finally managed to try a whole board of MX Browns today, the tactility wasn't as weak as I thought it would be, but they felt rough as late black Alps. It did make me want to try Zealios or MX Clears.

MX Browns are trash buuut *Holds up a shield above his head* Zealios aren't bad...

I just like tactile Alps a lot more.

[E3E]

Finding the Omnikey is the only thing I need to do since I have several baggies of nice Blue Alps (I posted a picture of 'em a while back).

Also, I have a nice Orange Alps board since my AT101W swap is complete. Pictures of that will be coming in once I pick up the bottom row keycaps from storage (aka my parents' basement). EDIT: It'll look a lot like the Pearl/Pebble board you posted here.

Love the look of the Dell. Makes me think of some kind of military keyboard with the sandy caps on the black case.



Did that with my Orion a while back, but the big bezel on the Dell kind of gives it that look.

Also, if you do ever decide you want to swap new switches into the customized Omnikey, you can always top swap if you don't want to deal with desoldering and soldering in new switches again. Quick and dirty but it works.

[Wingpad]

Love the look of the Dell. Makes me think of some kind of military keyboard with the sandy caps on the black case.

Show Image

Did that with my Orion a while back, but the big bezel on the Dell kind of gives it that look.

Well if you really love the look of the Dell that much... I'd be happy to trade ;)

Also, if you do ever decide you want to swap new switches into the customized Omnikey, you can always top swap if you don't want to deal with desoldering and soldering in new switches again. Quick and dirty but it works.

Yeah, I could do that but I probably won't; I don't mind soldering/desoldering since it's a good way for me to unwind. Also, I prefer the way the long, gray switchplates look (which is completely irrational because you can't see them once it's all put together).

EDIT: Plus, if I ever get an Omnikey put together I would rather avoid "quick n' dirty" solutions since it's something I would send on tour.

[E3E]

Well if you really love the look of the Dell that much... I'd be happy to trade

Noooot that much.

Yeah, I could do that but I probably won't; I don't mind soldering/desoldering since it's a good way for me to unwind. Also, I prefer the way the long, gray switchplates look (which is completely irrational because you can't see them once it's all put together).

EDIT: Plus, if I ever get an Omnikey put together I would rather avoid "quick n' dirty" solutions since it's something I would send on tour.

I'd be far too paranoid to ever send my keyboards on a touring trip, mainly out of shipping mishaps than other GHers. Oh yes, I wouldn't settle for anything less than a switch with long switch plates as a base if I was planning on doing several top swaps. I always imagined that they help the feel a bit, perhaps a bit more solid, but who knows. It's probably minuscule at best.

Soldering is pretty chill though, I get you. Hot swapping entire switches is fun though.

[Mattr567]

I'd advise against lubricating Alps and similar switches as no-one has found a lube that really works well with them yet.

It's those damn top housings. Once they go, they're incredibly hard to restore. It's better to salvage tops off of good condition common boards than to try and clean and lubricate them; that only goes so far in my experience.

I'm still not sure what causes the wear to the tops in the first place, as I've seen clean switches that still have binding and it all comes from the tops. IMO, the top housings account for a majority of the feel in terms of condition, even beyond the sliders.

This, once the top housing go its hard to fix.

My Taobao SKCL Greens have this, and its bad. My Taobao SKCM Blues seemly don't. They restore pretty nicely. Although not as nice as my Packard Bell thats for sure.

[E3E]

This, once the top housing go its hard to fix.

My Taobao SKCL Greens have this, and its bad. My Taobao SKCM Blues seemly don't. They restore pretty nicely. Although not as nice as my Packard Bell thats for sure.

A kind of ghetto fix would be to use SKCM housings from a common keyboard in good condition on the linears, though that's kind of awkward.

SKCL Yellow boards might not be as highly regarded as SKCL Green ones, but they're also not significantly cheaper, and that'd be the best source of spare SKCL tops so you can fully restore the feel of the SKCL Greens.

[Hypersphere]

Those for whom soldering is gleeful fun should check out the "molten metal" scene from the 1939 film, The Hunchback of Notre Dame.

As for me, I am still such a novice at soldering that I find it nerve-wracking.

[Mattr567]

This, once the top housing go its hard to fix.

My Taobao SKCL Greens have this, and its bad. My Taobao SKCM Blues seemly don't. They restore pretty nicely. Although not as nice as my Packard Bell thats for sure.

A kind of ghetto fix would be to use SKCM housings from a common keyboard in good condition on the linears, though that's kind of awkward.

SKCL Yellow boards might not be as highly regarded as SKCL Green ones, but they're also not significantly cheaper, and that'd be the best source of spare SKCL tops so you can fully restore the feel of the SKCL Greens.

Yea, I really don't want to do that if I don't have to. Plus with SKCM housings (and yellows?) you lose the long tabs plus a few other differences.

A little while back someone offered me in this thread a bunch of extra SKCL top housings, it was the guy with the clicky green alps 60%.

Am interested in them

[E3E]

Yea, I really don't want to do that if I don't have to. Plus with SKCM housings (and yellows?) you lose the long tabs plus a few other differences.

You mean the long slits? Yeah, they are a bit different. For SKCL Yellow, the slits aren't exactly shorter, but they seem less wide. SKCMs are shorter though, for sure.

A little while back someone offered me in this thread a bunch of extra SKCL top housings, it was the guy with the clicky green alps 60%.

Am interested in them

Yeah, definitely go with that. That's your best bet.

[klennkellon]

I'm interested in MX Clears, so I'm going to try out swapping Kailh Reds to MX Clears on this Keycool I have before I do my Matias/SKCM Orange swap in the future. Will make for good practice and I won't feel as bad if I mess up.

[fohat.digs]

since it's something I would send on tour.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49604.msg1318608#msg1318608

[mike52787]

This, once the top housing go its hard to fix.

My Taobao SKCL Greens have this, and its bad. My Taobao SKCM Blues seemly don't. They restore pretty nicely. Although not as nice as my Packard Bell thats for sure.

A kind of ghetto fix would be to use SKCM housings from a common keyboard in good condition on the linears, though that's kind of awkward.

SKCL Yellow boards might not be as highly regarded as SKCL Green ones, but they're also not significantly cheaper, and that'd be the best source of spare SKCL tops so you can fully restore the feel of the SKCL Greens.

Yea, I really don't want to do that if I don't have to. Plus with SKCM housings (and yellows?) you lose the long tabs plus a few other differences.

A little while back someone offered me in this thread a bunch of extra SKCL top housings, it was the guy with the clicky green alps 60%.

Am interested in them

Haha thats me. I can send them to you, shoot me a PM. Maybe we can arrange a trade.

[Moistgun]

@Chyros: Thanks for re-posting your video. It was most helpful for putting the switch back together -- which was the part that was troubling me.

As for taking off the top of the switch, i would highly recommend the Plexiglass (Perspex) tool made and sold by "mrbishop". I think the version I have might have been dubbed the "Alps Trident":

(Attachment Link)
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79766.0;nowap

This thing really works! Push down, pull up, the switch top come off neatly attached to the tool. I think that E3E has made a similar tool, but I do not have that one.

Just wanna second this.

I have an aluminum prototype, and the thing is awesome!

makes it so much faster to take them apart.

[emdude]

After using my SKCM Brown board for a bit, I am starting to think that the harsh bottoming-out is more of an issue than the somewhat stiff tactility.  I tried swapping in some Cream Damped sliders from my SGI and it actually feels pretty good; I have not tried Topre, but I wonder if this is the Alps version of 'being one with the cup rubber.'

So, I guess I will try to get some Cream/White Damped switches.  Don't want to steal sliders from the SGI just for this.

[E3E]

After using my SKCM Brown board for a bit, I am starting to think that the harsh bottoming-out is more of an issue than the somewhat stiff tactility.  I tried swapping in some Cream Damped sliders from my SGI and it actually feels pretty good; I have not tried Topre, but I wonder if this is the Alps version of 'being one with the cup rubber.'

So, I guess I will try to get some Cream/White Damped switches.  Don't want to steal sliders from the SGI just for this.

Buy an AEK II; they're very plentiful.

Yeah, I think you're exactly right. I always felt that the tactile bump itself was quite rounded and not very significant, but it's like the bottoming out amplifies it. Testing an SKCM Brown switch alone with a soft press produces a very rounded feel. The bottoming out really alters it, imo. With a rigid plate, I feel like it's just made more intense.

I think aluminum or something with a bit more give would be better. Maybe even typical steel like the sort used for the plates on the old Alps OEM boards.

It was the same with SKCM Amber too. They felt harsh on the bottom out. SKCM Brown and Amber reminded me of each other quite a bit because of that.

[Moistgun]

After using my SKCM Brown board for a bit, I am starting to think that the harsh bottoming-out is more of an issue than the somewhat stiff tactility.  I tried swapping in some Cream Damped sliders from my SGI and it actually feels pretty good; I have not tried Topre, but I wonder if this is the Alps version of 'being one with the cup rubber.'

So, I guess I will try to get some Cream/White Damped switches.  Don't want to steal sliders from the SGI just for this.

I use click modded creams, and they are very tactile after the mod, before that there were very underwhelming.

with the mod I can say they are much stiffer than topre, and obviously the click makes it very different as well.