Author Topic: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.  (Read 362019 times)

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Offline templanet

  • Posts: 14
I hate registering on forums but rediscovering the DataHand again, while reading about the split keyboards made me do it. The split keyboards I see people getting so excited about just seem like a rehash of an old idea. Those DataHand people thought outside the box, but were too far ahead of their time unfortunately.   :(

If 3D printing doesn't work yet, how about using traditional molds for the keys? Ask a factory in China to make them out of aluminium. Or get a local old school metal worker to make them. :)
« Last Edit: Sat, 21 April 2018, 14:34:22 by templanet »

Offline Interface

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  • Location: Sweden
    • Chronicle of my projects
I hate registering on forums but rediscovering the DataHand again, while reading about the split keyboards made me do it. The split keyboards I see people getting so excited about just seem like a rehash of an old idea. Those DataHand people thought outside the box, but were too far ahead of their time unfortunately.   :(

If 3D printing doesn't work yet, how about using traditional molds for the keys? Ask a factory in China to make them out of aluminium. Or get a local old school metal worker to make them. :)

I've made more progress on my work for an ergonomic HID. However I can't promise when i'll be done, I went deep with this one, deep into the rabbit hole haha
Will use optimization throughout development with humans in the loop, and re-evaluation from new simulations, 3d print improved version :)

To setup biomechanical simulations with parametric model generation takes a lot of time. Does anyone know if Datahand development used biomechanical simulation for development?

Below is the 3d printer I bought that has missing parts so I'm making my own in laser cut steel cnc-milled aluminum.
When that's done I can start making HIDs!

« Last Edit: Sun, 22 April 2018, 07:27:53 by Interface »

Offline vvp

  • Posts: 866
To setup biomechanical simulations with parametric model generation takes a lot of time. Does anyone know if Datahand development used biomechanical simulation for development?
I'm guessing they did not. If they had done it then how did they justify switches on sides (left/right) of fingers. Try to move e.g. your ring finger left/right without moving other fingers.

Offline wejn

  • Posts: 14
To setup biomechanical simulations with parametric model generation takes a lot of time. Does anyone know if Datahand development used biomechanical simulation for development?
I'm guessing they did not. If they had done it then how did they justify switches on sides (left/right) of fingers. Try to move e.g. your ring finger left/right without moving other fingers.
Hm, I might be an odd duck, or perhaps well trained from 10+ years on datahand, but I can move ring fingers that way without any problem. Otherwise it'd be major pain to "type" Esc,B,N,Win keys. :-)

(and I do have almost all hotkeys mapped as Win-<something>, so, yeah, works for me just fine)

Offline templanet

  • Posts: 14
Does anyone know if Datahand development used biomechanical simulation for development?


You could ask the inventor himself maybe, but he is getting up there in years. I saw a webpage with Dale Retter's address on LinkedIn but I can't find it. Leland Knight a mechanical engineer helped him make it.
https://www.bloomberg.com/research/stocks/private/snapshot.asp?privcapid=5018196
https://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/stories/2000/04/03/focus13.html

I was thinking about how technology is getting smaller and was wondering if a wearable could replace the DataHand. So I went looking and found this yesterday, but as usual with anything really interesting they have given up. They reached their goal on Kickstarter then gave all the money back, because they needed additional funding that fell through.

https://gest.co/technology

A system where sensors on your wrist report the vectors to your fingers. That way you could build a DataHand without any moving parts. Everything else would be code.

Edit:
Well it looks like it is already here.
https://www.bebopsensors.com/

Edit 2:
Actually I was just thinking about the risks associated with wearables, in that they put electric fields next to your flesh. It could be a cancer risk. They say the same of mobile phones.
« Last Edit: Sun, 29 April 2018, 17:01:12 by templanet »

Offline wejn

  • Posts: 14
You could ask the inventor himself maybe, but he is getting up there in years. I saw a webpage with Dale Retter's address on LinkedIn but I can't find it.

I have Dale Retter's email (not that hard to find in Google), but was unable to get him on the phone; he's all promise & no follow through.

PM if you want the email.

I was thinking about how technology is getting smaller and was wondering if a wearable could replace the DataHand. So I went looking and found this yesterday, but as usual with anything really interesting they have given up. They reached their goal on Kickstarter then gave all the money back, because they needed additional funding that fell through.

https://gest.co/technology

A system where sensors on your wrist report the vectors to your fingers. That way you could build a DataHand without any moving parts. Everything else would be code.

Edit:
Well it looks like it is already here.
https://www.bebopsensors.com/

Edit 2:
Actually I was just thinking about the risks associated with wearables, in that they put electric fields next to your flesh. It could be a cancer risk. They say the same of mobile phones.
Then there's also https://www.tapwithus.com/product-2/ (or maybe better link would be https://www.tapwithus.com/overview/ ). Which looks promising, but still somewhat off the mark.

I accidentally also saw someone (on Kickstarter?) create a Kinesis-like keyboard that is split to two units (DH style) where one of the units as a whole also functions as [an oversized] mouse, but can't really remember the link. It would be a neat idea to integrate that into dodohand. :-)

Edited to add: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1666150716/keymousetm-the-keyboard-and-mouse-re-invented
« Last Edit: Mon, 30 April 2018, 08:42:22 by wejn »

Offline templanet

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Then there's also https://www.tapwithus.com/product-2/ (or maybe better link would be https://www.tapwithus.com/overview/ ). Which looks promising, but still somewhat off the mark.

That looks interesting. If it was two handed I would be very tempted. It might be good for kicking back and surfing though.

Quote
I accidentally also saw someone (on Kickstarter?) create a Kinesis-like keyboard that is split to two units (DH style) where one of the units as a whole also functions as [an oversized] mouse, but can't really remember the link. It would be a neat idea to integrate that into dodohand. :-)

Edited to add: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1666150716/keymousetm-the-keyboard-and-mouse-re-invented

I had a look at that one, but I thought moving the keyboard out of position might give you shoulder and back problems. However there is a comment on their Kickstarter, where they said they wanted to make a version with a trackball. That could work. But the DataHand looks way cooler... ;)

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 72
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #657 on: Sun, 13 January 2019, 14:51:53 »
I've been working on a similar project... here's a bit of a teaser of my first functional prototype :). I plan on opening sourcing it, once I've got it a bit more finalized. This was all printed with a normal FDM printer :). And the circuit traces were done by using a vinyl cutter on copper tape and applying them to the 3d printed parts.

Each key cluster is mounted independently, with 3 ball socket screw mounts, to provide limited 6DOF for each key module, for getting that perfect placement/angle for your hands.

Firmware is based on my existing teensyhand firmware for a datahand modified to use a teensy 2.0 controller.

It's usable atm, and I'm able to get around the same typing speed as my normal datahand -- maybe just a bit slower (and with a bit more mistakes). I need to do more work to get the buttons feeling just right. e.g. the center button is a bit too wobbly and takes too much force, the side keys have a bit too much travel, etc.

more pics




Offline algernon

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #658 on: Sun, 13 January 2019, 15:08:14 »
I've been working on a similar project...

This is simply amazing. I'd like to nominate this for keyboard of the year, 2019.

Offline wolfv

  • Posts: 256
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #659 on: Sun, 13 January 2019, 15:44:46 »
.. here's a bit of a teaser of my first functional prototype :).

This is so cool.  Just Wow!!  :thumb:

The key cluster mounts are genius.  Looks like:
  • The key clusters are positioned on a ferrous sheet.
  • The bottom of the tall base nut has a magnet that sticks to the ferrous sheet.
  • A white ball screws into the top of the base nut.
  • A socket nut clamps down on a white ball.
Where did you get the white screw with the ball head?

And many more clever things I can't make out from the pictures.
Are those optic switches?

I will be following your project with interest.

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 72
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #660 on: Sun, 13 January 2019, 15:59:26 »
Yep! You got it :)

The white screw is also printed on the same FDM machine. Most of the parts are printed from a PLA with a low amount of metal-fill, which I found to have exceptional opacity. But the screws are printed with polycarbonate, for a bit better strength. The heads would snap off too easily when printed in PLA. I also switched to using polycarbonate for the printed "PCB" bases, because it has a much higher temp resistance, so it can handle soldering onto the copper traces better.

Yep, optical switches. An IR LED/phototransistor pair per key. And all keys use pairs of tiny 1/16" magnets for the holding/key return force - one in the key and one in the base.
« Last Edit: Sun, 13 January 2019, 16:44:25 by JesusFreke »

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 72
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #661 on: Sun, 13 January 2019, 16:07:23 »
The key mounts were definitely one of the harder things to come up with. I had the key modules working much sooner, but couldn't come up with a good mounting system, so I put the project on the back burner for a few months and let it stew in the back of my mind. And as hoped, the inspiration eventually struck :)

Offline OldDataHands

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #662 on: Sun, 13 January 2019, 23:17:42 »
Bravo!  Impressive stuff. Can't wait to see the details of your switch models when you're ready to share!

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 72
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #663 on: Sun, 13 January 2019, 23:35:00 »
here are the stls for the cluster bases and keys. Not an official release or anything, but feel free to take a look :)

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 72
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #664 on: Mon, 14 January 2019, 23:22:07 »
Hmm, yeah.  I definitely need to reduce the actuation force of the center key a bit. I thought it felt too stiff. I measured my datahand at around 28g.






Offline wejn

  • Posts: 14
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #665 on: Tue, 15 January 2019, 16:58:24 »
I've been working on a similar project...

This is simply amazing. I'd like to nominate this for keyboard of the year, 2019.
I second that nomination. This is unexpected. And all kinds of awesome.  :eek:

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 72
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #666 on: Fri, 18 January 2019, 00:45:18 »
I think I'm getting closer to getting the right key feel. I reduced the travel angle of all 4 side keys from 20 degrees to 12.5 degrees, and once I got it hooked back up, there was definitely something that clicked mentally. "Oh hey! I know that feeling, that feels like the thing I've been using for the last 15 years.". Although I think I might need to reduce the actuation force on the side keys just a bit still. I should be able to do that by moving the placement of the magnet on the key stem, so it's a bit out of alignment with the magnet on the base. More out of alignment == less force.

I've also got the center key feeling better. I redesigned the center of the cluster and the key, so that there's just a single post (plus another protuberance to occlude the optical sensors), and a single hole that's the full height of the cluster. Additionally, the bottom of the post on the center key is now even with the bottom of the cluster in an unpressed state, so the bottom of the post doesn't "dig in" to the side of the hole when there's lateral force on the key (which was causing it to "catch" when pressing it, resulting in a failed press and a typing mistake). This all keeps the key much more constrained to just vertical movement.

Reducing the actuation force of the center key was a bit trickier. Since there's no vertical constraint on the placement of the key post with relation to the mating surface on the cluster, changing the location of the magnet simply makes the key stick out of the cluster more or less, since the 2 magnets will always line up exactly.

I tried making the magnet hole in the cluster deeper, so that there's a bit of a gap between the two magnets, but the key lost most of its tactile feel, and was just a squishy mess.

So... I ended up baking the magnet in the key at various temperatures, to partially demagnitize it. The higher a temp you get it to, the more of its magnetization is lost. 200C seemed to result in a magnet with just about the right amount of force, and still enough clickiness.

The center key is just a tiny bit sticky at the very end of its travel now though. I think it has to do with the more constrained vertical movement, and the force gradient as the magnet in the key drops down below the magnet in the cluster. I'm hoping I can just reduce the key travel a smidge, and keep the key out of that "valley" (in terms of magnetic force) so that there's enough return force to get it back up.
« Last Edit: Fri, 18 January 2019, 00:54:29 by JesusFreke »

Offline JesusFreke

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #667 on: Sun, 20 January 2019, 20:53:15 »
I finished remaking all of the key clusters with the new improvements, and I'm pretty happy with the feel of them now.

I wasn't happy with the hand rest though. I definitely felt some wrist strain when using it for a while. So I spent some time today sculpting some new hand rests. I think I'm going to try some photogrammetry software, to see if I can get a reasonable 3d representation of them, and then see how they feel when printed. I might experiment with some flexible filament, to make them a bit softer. But that will probably come later. This new hand rest, at least in plasticine clay form, feels quite nice, although since it's molded specifically for my hand/wrist, I don't know how.. universal it would be :)

The other main thing I need to take a look at is the thumb modules, and give them the same treatment I gave the main key clusters, to get them feeling right. I think the main thing is just reducing the key travel. Although the inward "mode" keys have an annoying tendency to pop out, so I may need to work on that a bit as well.







Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 72
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #668 on: Wed, 23 January 2019, 01:17:16 »
Well, that turned out better than expected. I had never tried photogrammetry, so I didn't really know what to expect. I ended up using meshroom, which was quite simple to use. And the result turned out as close to the original as I could have hoped.



Offline daveola

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #669 on: Tue, 29 January 2019, 03:11:28 »
How very timely!

I just got a 3D printer, and one of my DataHands just broke, so I thought I'd check if DodoHands had ever come to fruition.

Is there a plan to put up more of your design improvements for the 'lalboard' JesusFreke?

I'd love to start putting one together and seeing if I could improve on it, but not having the current design would mean duplicating whatever work you've done so far.  :)

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 72
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #670 on: Tue, 29 January 2019, 13:06:49 »
I'm working on it :). There's some red tape that must be red tape'd before I can release it, unfortunately.

I'll also note that this may not be the best project for just getting into 3d printing :). Although, If you like diving straight into the deep end, I won't stop you.

Offline daveola

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #671 on: Mon, 04 February 2019, 17:34:17 »
Although, If you like diving straight into the deep end, I won't stop you.

I am a deep end diver.

Also - I am considering using something like your project to build a datahand using the physical structure of a broken keyboard.  It looks like you have 8 pin connectors for each of the finger keys, are you just running power, ground and then 5 lines for each switch as a separate I/O?  (as opposed to the multiplexing that DataHand does for it's connectors)

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 72
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #672 on: Mon, 04 February 2019, 17:50:51 »
I'm using 7 pin JST ZH connectors, which are a 1.5mm pitch connector. power, ground and the 5 photodiodes for the 5 buttons.

There are 5 input pins on the uC, and the "first" photodiode from each cluster are all connected together and connected to 1 input pin, all the "second" photodiodes are connected together, etc.

The multiplexing is performed by switching on/off the ground pin for each cluster sequentially, via a TLC59211IN. So there are 5 output pins on the uC, each of which control the ground pin for a single cluster. Iirc, I have the IR leds running at around 20mA-25mA each (hmm.. 150ohm resistor,  ~1.5V drop over the LED so ~3.5V drop over the resistor, yeah, ~23mA). But the total duty cycle is fairly low, so the average current draw isn't anywhere near the peak ~100-125mA (per side)

Each side of the keyboard has its own uC, and they communicate via i2c, so there's only 4 wires running between the 2 sides. I use the same 7-pin connector, and just populate every other pin. One of the sides (currently the right) is the "primary", and is the only one that needs to be plugged into the computer.

I've been focuced on making a second keyboard for use at work, but I've about got that done, and I can switch focus to getting it into a state for release.
« Last Edit: Mon, 04 February 2019, 18:14:24 by JesusFreke »

Offline JesusFreke

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #673 on: Mon, 04 February 2019, 18:07:12 »
Out of curiosity, how did your datahand break? Electrical or mechanical?
« Last Edit: Mon, 04 February 2019, 18:54:08 by JesusFreke »

Offline daveola

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #674 on: Tue, 05 February 2019, 01:46:46 »
Out of curiosity, how did your datahand break? Electrical or mechanical?

I have a broken DataHand, then I had my home DataHandthat I was using.  The broken one came to me broken, and has a few keys that don't work.  I believe it's the key units themselves, because the same keys are broken if I put them in either Datahand.

My home DataHand that I was using as my primary keyboard just stopped letting me press the 'j' key.

I assumed it was the key unit, so I tried to resolder the pins, but that didn't help.  I decided to desolder that pointer finger key unit from the board, something I'm not terribly proficient at, and managed to get the block off and clean it up.

But that wasn't the problem.  I put it back together and the 'J' didn't work still, so I tried it in the other keyboard and the 'J' worked.  But now three of the other keys stopped working, thanks to my clumsy solder work that I didn't even need to do.  Now I'm trying to find someone to help me repair that, or to figure out what the circuit is for the whole board so I can figure out what got disconnected or blown.  I'm tempted to find one of those 14 pin cables and setup a test station for one of the key units.

Anyways - when I realized it wasn't the key unit, I tried swapping the cable.  Not it either.  Fortunately I happened to have an extra microcontroller around for the Datahand and I swapped it out, and much to my surprise, that fixed the 'J'.  I doublechecked with the older microcontroller, and sure enough, that was the problem.  I'm not quite sure how, but so it goes.

I think I can probably cobble together one Datahand out of these two, but two is better than one, and having a better interface and better control over the keyboard is a dream, so I'm tempted to head down that route, I just need to figure out the best way to handle the I/O.  I'm tempted to just throw a Raspberry Pi into each case since I've worked with them before, and the idea of ssh'ing into my left and right keyboard units is actually pretty amusing.

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 72
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #675 on: Tue, 05 February 2019, 02:07:17 »
Quote
and the idea of ssh'ing into my left and right keyboard units is actually pretty amusing.

hahaha. I've had exactly the same thought!

That's quite interesting that swapping out the microcontroller fixed the one unit. Maybe you got a random bit flip in it's eeprom or something.

I have 2 datahands myself, home and work. I've had the home one for.. man. 15 years? Hmm, when did I release my first firmware for it for the 8051? Looks like 2009, so maybe only 10 years or so. And I've had the work one for 7 years. I've had a few keys stop working on both units every once in a while, but it was always a problem with the cables, or just gunk in the keys.

Actually, I lied, I have 3. I bought a non-working one off ebay with the intention of fixing it and reselling it, but I haven't gotten around to looking at it yet. heh.

But I hate the thought that I can't easily get a replacement if something goes extremely wrong with one of my units.. hence this project. This was one of two Big Projects that I had in mind when I first got into 3d printing.. eh, 2 years ago? 3 years? something like that. I knew I didn't want to tackle either one immediately, so I did a lot of other smaller projects and just kept learning about 3d printing and modeling. I tackled the first Big Project last year (a 3d printed, telescopic didgeridoo. whee!), and then moved one to this one after a bit of a break.

Offline chrisvacc

  • Posts: 3
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #676 on: Thu, 07 February 2019, 10:48:40 »
I've been working on a similar project...

There's a to of info on Google Patents and other patent site.





https://patents.google.com/patent/US4917516A/en

https://www.google.com/search?q=Datahands+Patents
« Last Edit: Thu, 07 February 2019, 10:51:41 by chrisvacc »

Offline chrisvacc

  • Posts: 3
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #677 on: Fri, 08 February 2019, 18:22:22 »
Well, that turned out better than expected. I had never tried photogrammetry, so I didn't really know what to expect. I ended up using meshroom, which was quite simple to use. And the result turned out as close to the original as I could have hoped.

Bro, why don't you just start a kickstarter. Original DataHands sell on eBay for like $3000. I posted a thread to reddit and people went nuts.

https://www.reddit.com/r/vimkeyboard/comments/ao1dmm/xpost_the_ultimate_vim_keyboard/

https://www.reddit.com/r/vim/comments/ao1c3o/the_ultimate_vim_keyboard/



 If people are paying #3000 for these on eBay (with serial cables, and other ancient technology,) I'm sure you could raise tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands overnight i order to get them developed and manufactured. You get the funding... hire a few competent engineers, subcontract a few manufacturing plants... and not only will you produce the best programming keyboard of all time, you'll likely have earned millions.

 Get funding. Don't do this on your own. I'm sure the people on this forum are excited enough to fund the kickstarter.

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 72
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #678 on: Fri, 08 February 2019, 18:27:48 »
Why not?
1. lack of experience. I don't want to be yet another kickstarter that fails to deliver, or is extremely late because the creator lacks experience and doesn't know what he's doing, with respect to trying to get something mass manufactured.
2. Lack of interest. I have a well-paying full time job, and I enjoy hacking on projects like this in my spare time. I don't have much interest in building a company and dealing with the insane amounts of stress of running the kickstarter and then managing the manufacturing and distribution.

Offline algernon

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #679 on: Fri, 08 February 2019, 18:42:31 »
If people are paying #3000 for these on eBay (with serial cables, and other ancient technology,) I'm sure you could raise tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands overnight i order to get them developed and manufactured. You get the funding... hire a few competent engineers, subcontract a few manufacturing plants... and not only will you produce the best programming keyboard of all time, you'll likely have earned millions.

Get funding. Don't do this on your own. I'm sure the people on this forum are excited enough to fund the kickstarter.

If only it was so easy. Mass-producing hardware is *hard*. Mass-producing complex hardware like this, much more so. Mass-producing complex hardware in low-volume (because under 10k units sold, it's low volume) is a path full of traps, pitfalls, and monsters in every corner. Doing a hardware kickstarter while having a full-time job, without dedicating yourself to it, *will* fail.

I'd rather see JesusFreke continue posting his progress here, so we can all admire it and learn, tbfh.

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 72
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #680 on: Fri, 08 February 2019, 21:09:33 »
Speaking of which, here's my second unit, now installed on my desk at work :D


Offline invultri

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #681 on: Sat, 09 February 2019, 05:55:42 »
Speaking of which, here's my second unit, now installed on my desk at work :D

Your design looks way better than the one I came up with. What is the minimum wall size in the print?

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 72
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #682 on: Sat, 09 February 2019, 14:51:53 »
minimum wall size is .4mm.

I'd be curious to see pictures or anything if you have them :)

Now that I've finished up my work keyboard, I've started cleaning everything up to be released. I hope to make some good progress on that this weekend

Offline ju6ju8Oo

  • Posts: 129
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #683 on: Sun, 10 February 2019, 04:07:59 »
what're the latest open source models that I can build upon?

https://github.com/dodohand/dodohand seems to be abandoned

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 72
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #684 on: Sun, 10 February 2019, 04:23:45 »
I'm working on releasing my design as we speak :). Hopefully sometime next week.

Offline wejn

  • Posts: 14
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #685 on: Wed, 13 February 2019, 16:26:40 »
Speaking of which, here's my second unit, now installed on my desk at work :D
That is a nice piece of work. And also Evoluent mouse hiding off to the right side :D

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 72
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #686 on: Thu, 14 February 2019, 16:42:12 »
I've successfully red taped the red tape :)

https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard

It's written using my developed-in-parallel fscad framework, which is a wrapper for Fusion 360's apis, with the goal of providing an OpenSCAD-like design paradigm, where the focus in on boolean combinations of basic objects.


I still need to add lots of information. e.g. how to get your environment setup to run the designs, tips/suggested settings for printing the various parts, a BOM, some assembly tips/instructions... etc. etc.

Offline daveola

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #687 on: Mon, 18 February 2019, 15:20:31 »
Fantastic!

I just finished my first 3D print project today - so I'm going to start delving into this to see if I can reproduce it.  I want to make an adjustable case for it as well.

Excited1

Offline JesusFreke

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #688 on: Mon, 18 February 2019, 15:25:56 »
I've added some more info in the wikis and such in the project, as far as printing parameters, etc. go. The main thing missing now is assembly instructions.

 An adjustable case would be great :). I've been thinking about something like that a bit myself. Some way to at least get the inside edge of each side up, so it's at an angle, similar to the datahand. I haven't actually done any work on that though, and probably won't soon.


Offline daveola

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    • Marginal Hacks
Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #689 on: Tue, 19 February 2019, 02:10:12 »
On a related note, just managed to fix my broken DataHand keyboard!

Anyone looking to repair or sell a broken DataHand?

(And now to start looking at building/printing my own!)

Offline ju6ju8Oo

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #690 on: Tue, 19 February 2019, 02:12:50 »
found it https://github.com/JesusFreke/lalboard thank you mr jesusfreke

Offline ju6ju8Oo

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #691 on: Tue, 19 February 2019, 02:35:54 »
I wish I could port dactyl / dactyl manuform to fscad for faster prototyping

Offline JesusFreke

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #692 on: Tue, 19 February 2019, 02:50:00 »
So port it :D  But yeah, OpenSCAD can be... annoyingly slow. And I always hated that you couldn't refer to the size or bounds of other objects.

Offline daveola

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #693 on: Tue, 19 February 2019, 13:07:09 »

Just ordered all the parts!  Here comes a big project!

Offline JesusFreke

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Re: Re-Create the DataHand - Thumb cluster under development. Project 75% done.
« Reply #694 on: Sat, 23 February 2019, 02:59:35 »
I was making some tweaks to the design, and did a quick cross-sectional view to make sure I had things lined up properly. It's a good illustration of the side key mechanisms.

I rotated the 2 magnets by 45 degrees, to hopefully get a better printed result. I always had issues with the small bridge there on the top of the magnet hole in the cluster base. It tended to droop down, and made it harder to insert the magnets. You would basically have to push the magnet in, forcing the drooping plastic out of the way.

I figure with the 45 degree walls there, it should print fine at a low layer height -- the recommended layer height for the cluster base is .1mm.

But anyway, I thought the image shows a good view of a couple of details that are a bit hard to see otherwise.
1. the magnet in the key is offset from the magnet in the base, to reduce the key actuation force.
2. There is a groove in the back of the key and a corresponding ridge on the backstop. This is placed so that it engages shortly after the side key has started rotating back. This
keeps the key from sliding up and out of the keywell when pushed, but still allows it to be easily pulled out when it's vertical, for cleaning, etc.





Offline ironfox

  • Posts: 22
Hello everyone!
I've been following this thread for a while now, not quite expecting it would work out...
What an amazing surprise that it apparently did  :thumb:!

I've been looking for a DataHand since around 2011 when their site was still up, but they straight refused to send me the device I had ordered.
Back then I had the first symptoms of RSI and had assumed this might be a simple way out. I don't know if that would have worked. I have some doubts. I since brought the RSI symptoms under control, but recently got issues with my finger tendons when using regular thick-key keyboards. I have a DataHand-worth of Kinesis keyboards but it seems I won't be able to use them anymore. Bummer.
Doctor says I should type less. He doesn't say how I can do so without getting paid less.

So, along comes your project. Didn't take much effort to convince me I should try this. I probably can't build it on my own (my hands aren't quite steady, plus this is way out of my comfort zone), but I recruited people willing to give this a try so all I have to do is get the materials. And a 3D printer.
I have no idea if this will work out, but I am gonna give this a serious try, or three. I can model 3d stuff, so the 3d printer might come in handy for other things, too.
Went for an ORIGINAL PRUSA I3 MK3S. Hope it'll do. Otherwise tell me now so I can send it back and get a more appropriate one  ;).

I ordered most of the parts you listed in the states from the sites you linked, because it either didn't matter cost-wise, I was lazy, or I plain could not get the parts anywhere locally. This goes in particular for the 1/16" magnets. Smallest I could find here in Europe was 2mm (you know, metric and all that). Somewhat of a bummer since the site you linked charges 40 bugs shipping in their cheapest setting for 10 bugs worth of magnets ,enough to build two of these keyboards.
But considering you went to the length of heating them up to make them even weaker, I guess bigger isn't going to cut it. Maybe literally cutting larger ones would ... assuming they don't break that way (there was something about blunt force voiding magnetism).
For now I'm gonna stick to the plan and keep the risk minimal.
I'll probably have a ton of questions once the parts are here. Or maybe not, maybe it's super intuitive. Who knows. I'll post my progress as it happens.

Bit of a pity these things can't be built and sold efficiently. I was considering asking whether someone could build this for money but I understand pretty well that this would never fly. As soon as this gets on the radar of whoever holds the patents of the original DataHand, **** will hit the fan. And I can more than understand your position that you just don't want to be bothered.

Lastly, and I cannot state this strongly enough: On the off-chance that this will work out for me, I owe you. Big time.

Offline wolfv

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As soon as this gets on the radar of whoever holds the patents of the original DataHand, **** will hit the fan.
The patents of the original DataHand have run out by now.

And yes, JesusFreke's work is amazing!

Offline JesusFreke

  • Posts: 72
wolfv: thanks! :)

ironfox: happy to help with any questions you might have. I use a prusa myself, and highly recommend them. good choice :). I've been meaning to put up the actual slic3r profiles/settings/etc. that I used for all the parts, just haven't gotten around to it (busy with another project!). Once you're ready to start printing, let me know and I'll see if I can put up what I have ready at least, if I haven't already.

But anyway, if nothing else, keep us updated! I'd love to hear how you get on with it.

Offline JesusFreke

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I've been considering creating a new thread for mine, just to make it easier to find, and have less confusion between the 2 different projects. Does anyone have a preference either way? (new thread, or just keep using this one).

Offline ironfox

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I've been considering creating a new thread for mine, just to make it easier to find, and have less confusion between the 2 different projects. Does anyone have a preference either way? (new thread, or just keep using this one).
Well, it can work either way, I think. But it will get crowdy here, the more people will go through the motions to rebuild your fine creation.
I guess it depends on whether you feel your own project drowns here or not. Wait and see, then maybe move?

Anyhow, I gots almost all the parts, including those overpriced 1/16" magnets. Some parts:

I also got the 3d printer:

After three days spent putting the thing together:

Now finally apparently printing:

Had to abort there; was getting late and boss insisted I switch it off before I go, but looks alright for as far as I can tell.
Which is a surprise, considering just how many parts I put together and how likely at least one of them could have ended up making this thing explode or something...
Quite the adventure, I have to say. Also a LOT of work :-X.

At any rate, I think I can start printing some keyboard parts tomorrow. So, let's see how that goes  :D