Dox KB, Build your own!

[TheProfosist]

oh those, I bought 200 of the orange/red version of that... i'll play around with it see what brightness works the 100ohm for the 2 series turned out to be too dark

Thanks I would like them as bright as I can get them with out harm as I plan to use white key caps from WASD keyboards. The glowing effect should be really cool.

[ishtob]

your layout should have 64 keys, so its going to need 64 diodes, and 4 LED will be single while the 60 are going to be in series.... its going to be 4 of whatever value for 1 LED and 30 for the rest

[ishtob]

Shoot.. just notice the smaller LED i bought were 60mcd not 600 like the one you posted... but the original LED I was using are 3200mcd... so dont know how much brighter it would be compared to the 60mcd

anyways, lets let the pictures speak for themselves: both are hooked up directly to USB power with a 470ohm inline
3200mcd running 6mA from here


60mcd running at 8mA from here


side by side comparison:

[ishtob]

sorry its daylight out, the brighter one lights up most of the key except for the part behind the middle column

should i get some red LED to see how bright these are?

[ishtob]

this one is spec'ed at 7000mcd with the same footprint

[TheProfosist]

your layout should have 64 keys, so its going to need 64 diodes, and 4 LED will be single while the 60 are going to be in series.... its going to be 4 of whatever value for 1 LED and 30 for the rest

Yes, it has 64 keys. Are there any specifics that I need to know before looking up the diodes? As for the resistors, using this calculated that I would need at least 105ohms they recommended 120ohms for the single LEDs. For the 2 LEDs in a series I calculated 43.3ohms they recommended 47ohms. Does this sound correct? Screenshot of Calculation

[ishtob]

theres a typo for the 1st slot, your using 1.85, not 1.58

also if your running it at that current, your USB won't be able to support it... that would add up to about 650mA roughly without calculating it

[ishtob]

this is the one I was interested in finding, but nowhere has it:    
WP710A10SEC

[TheProfosist]

theres a typo for the 1st slot, your using 1.85, not 1.58

also if your running it at that current, your USB won't be able to support it... that would add up to about 650mA roughly without calculating it

Alright so the mA is going to have change then right? The teensy takes up 100mA right? So, 400/64=6.25mA. So that changes the resistor alot 504 and 560 recommended for the single led and 208 and 220 recommended to the 2 LEDs in series. Calculator Screenshot

As those brighter ones would be a definite benefit but their significantly more expensive.

[ishtob]

i actually dont know how much current the teensy draws so iono, i try to keep the total current under 350 because i saw an article somewhere saying most keybaord uses 100-200mA i took the average 150mA use

[litster]

Guys, we got quotes back on switches for the Phantom group buy.  Looks like it is a go with switches.  Brown, Clear, and Red are a go.  We are at less than 200 switches for Blue, so we may axe Blue if we don't get close to 1000 blue switches.

In case you missed it, it is OK if you just want to order switches through the Phantom group buy.

[TheProfosist]

i actually dont know how much current the teensy draws so iono, i try to keep the total current under 350 because i saw an article somewhere saying most keybaord uses 100-200mA i took the average 150mA use

Ive have read everything on their website I cannot figure out power draw for the teensy.

[TheProfosist]

Ive have read everything on their website I cannot figure out power draw for the teensy.

I have sent an email off to their tech support to see if I can dril this down.

[TheProfosist]

I have sent an email off to their tech support to see if I can dril this down.

I got an email back

On 11/22/2011 10:22 AM, TheProfosist wrote:
    I was wondering what the power draw of the teensy was. We are using it as a keyboard controller.

With everthing on, approx 30 mA.

[alaricljs]

Part of it is going to be based on clock speed.  Another part is which peripherals you're using (analog IO, PWM, ... )  And yet another part is how the firmware is written.  I don't know what's possible in terms of idle loops on this arch, but the difference between an idle loop and a busy loop is most of the power usage.

[TheProfosist]

Part of it is going to be based on clock speed.  Another part is which peripherals you're using (analog IO, PWM, ... )  And yet another part is how the firmware is written.  I don't know what's possible in terms of idle loops on this arch, but the difference between an idle loop and a busy loop is most of the power usage.

So do you think the number I got was accurate or should I supply some more specifications?

[alaricljs]

Oh hey, I was still writing that.  As they say, with everything on 30ma... So I expect the KB firmware to be less than that (as no peripherals are used).  If there's a good idle loop then it should be quite a bit less.  Either way, 30ma is tiny already, anything less is noise.

[TheProfosist]

Oh hey, I was still writing that.  As they say, with everything on 30ma... So I expect the KB firmware to be less than that (as no peripherals are used).  If there's a good idle loop then it should be quite a bit less.  Either way, 30ma is tiny already, anything less is noise.

Sorry, so it would be less than 30ma? Hmm I should still leave at least that much available. I wonder how much power I should give to the LEDs.

[bloodygood]

So after seeing how crazy this has been over the LEDs and implementation I may just consider going no LEDs since that was my original plan to begin with. Especially since it sounds like it would take a lot of calculation to get Blue/Purple/Green LEDs working properly and I don't want to cause anyone trouble of working that all out. So now the main thing is just making sure the Teensy is on the back so the plate will fit over the front of the PCB. And possibly only then modifying the layout to add LED layout if that is still a possibility after those first 2 big points are taken care of. Keep in mind I am not trying to change the focus but this last couple page has just been a wall of text towards LEDs without a lot of easy clarification for those of us still learning electronics and electricity or with little experience.
I would think the order of operations should be..
1. Teensy to the back so that..
2. We get a plate mount for these awesome PCBs and then if we can..
3. add LEDs after seeing how a first working PCB with that set up handles and testing how much power is being drawn.

[TheProfosist]

So after seeing how crazy this has been over the LEDs and implementation I may just consider going no LEDs since that was my original plan to begin with. Especially since it sounds like it would take a lot of calculation to get Blue/Purple/Green LEDs working properly and I don't want to cause anyone trouble of working that all out. So now the main thing is just making sure the Teensy is on the back so the plate will fit over the front of the PCB. And possibly only then modifying the layout to add LED layout if that is still a possibility after those first 2 big points are taken care of. Keep in mind I am not trying to change the focus but this last couple page has just been a wall of text towards LEDs without a lot of easy clarification for those of us still learning electronics and electricity or with little experience.
I would think the order of operations should be..
1. Teensy to the back so that..
2. We get a plate mount for these awesome PCBs and then if we can..
3. add LEDs after seeing how a first working PCB with that set up handles and testing how much power is being drawn.

Sorry about all the led stuff just figuring out what i can while I wait on other stuff.


About moving the Teensy to the back I think that we were just going to have a cutout in the plate for it that way you dont have to take apart the whole keyboard just to flash the teensy.

Yes a plate I believe that Dox is waiting on measurements of the Poker case. I do not have one yet, I believe ishtob is the only one in this thread that has one.

I did get info from the makes of the teensy saying that it draws 30mA with everything on. Also there should be some way to check how much the keyboard ishtob has is using.


Also if you want those Leds you would have to have a resistor before every LED i believe dont quote me on that though.

[bloodygood]

Sorry about all the led stuff just figuring out what i can while I wait on other stuff.

About moving the Teensy to the back I think that we were just going to have a cutout in the plate for it that way you dont have to take apart the whole keyboard just to flash the teensy.

Yes a plate I believe that Dox is waiting on measurements of the Poker case. I do not have one yet, I believe ishtob is the only one in this thread that has one.

I did get info from the makes of the teensy saying that it draws 30mA with everything on. Also there should be some way to check how much the keyboard ishtob has is using.

Also if you want those Leds you would have to have a resistor before every LED i believe dont quote me on that though.

I don't see any reason why we cannot move the Teensy to the back actually. The coding allows for changes like that, plus the pins can be inserted into the same place on the PCB, it would involve flipping the component and do some re-routing of traces.

[TheProfosist]

I don't see any reason why we cannot move the Teensy to the back actually. The coding allows for changes like that, plus the pins can be inserted into the same place on the PCB, it would involve flipping the component and do some re-routing of traces.

What about access to the teensy? You need to press the button to flash. Also it will stick out and thus no longer fit in a standard poker case.

[bloodygood]

What about access to the teensy? You need to press the button to flash. Also it will stick out and thus no longer fit in a standard poker case.

have you measured the teensy as far as height, because there is a micro controller on the back of the Poker in the same place and there is a space in the Poker case to account for that, refer back to my previous pictures for proof of that. Also as I had said from the beginning we will only need to flash it a couple of times if not only once. So because of that we would still have access to the Teensy on the back without having to sacrifice structure integrity or possibly causing the spacebar stabilizers to not fit right/run out of space.
Case
Poker PCB Back
Poker Microcontroller
Different angle

[Dox]

You can flash the teensy by jumping to the bootloader with a keyboard shortcut (both shift + B) in hasu's firmware. The reset button does not need to be accessible.

[TheProfosist]

have you measured the teensy as far as height, because there is a micro controller on the back of the Poker in the same place and there is a space in the Poker case to account for that, refer back to my previous pictures for proof of that. Also as I had said from the beginning we will only need to flash it a couple of times if not only once. So because of that we would still have access to the Teensy on the back without having to sacrifice structure integrity or possibly causing the spacebar stabilizers to not fit right/run out of space.
Case
Poker PCB Back

The Teensy looks much taller in this pic than anything that could fit between the PCB and the Poker Case

You can flash the teensy by jumping to the bootloader with a keyboard shortcut (both shift + B) in hasu's firmware. The reset button does not need to be accessible.

That is good to know that it doesnt have to be accessible though I still dont know if there is enough room (especially under the spacebar) to put the teensy underneath in the poker case

[bloodygood]

The Teensy looks much taller in this pic than anything that could fit between the PCB and the Poker Case

Show Image

That is good to know that it doesnt have to be accessible though I still dont know if there is enough room (especially under the spacebar) to put the teensy underneath in the poker case

Ah that might be from the height of those default pins that come with the "Teensy w/ Pins" Perhaps we could use a shorter alternative? It would definitely help knowing the exact height including the mini usb at the max height.

[TheProfosist]

Ah that might be from the height of those default pins that come with the "Teensy w/ Pins" Perhaps we could use a shorter alternative? It would definitely help knowing the exact height including the mini usb at the max height.

I believe ishtob actually bought the normal teensy then bought the pins separately as the one with pins comes with them soldered on. And sadly I can find every dimension but that one.

[hazeluff]

Ah that might be from the height of those default pins that come with the "Teensy w/ Pins" Perhaps we could use a shorter alternative? It would definitely help knowing the exact height including the mini usb at the max height.

As you guys are building custom keyboards.

It is totally possible to choose a different microcontroler/chip and implement that. Figuring out how to put it on a board with I/Os and loading code onto it will be stuff you need to figure out tho.

But looking at the Teensy controller, it looks like its pretty small and you're not gonna get much improvement using another chip.

[bloodygood]

As you guys are building custom keyboards.

It is totally possible to choose a different microcontroler/chip and implement that. Figuring out how to put it on a board with I/Os and loading code onto it will be stuff you need to figure out tho.

But looking at the Teensy controller, it looks like its pretty small and you're not gonna get much improvement using another chip.

I wasn't suggesting using a different microcontroller, just shorter pins so that it would have a lower profile.
Yes we do know of the Aikon controller and the Chameleon controller are out there. The aikon would need to be assembled since I don't think there are any out there at the moment pre-assembled. Although the Chameleon controller is avaiable at a similar cost and has similar layout to the Teensy, but is made to work for keyboards as its primary use.
Available here. http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=12539447015

[hazeluff]

I wasn't suggesting using a different microcontroller, just shorter pins so that it would have a lower profile.
Yes we do know of the Aikon controller and the Chameleon controller are out there. The aikon would need to be assembled since I don't think there are any out there at the moment pre-assembled. Although the Chameleon controller is avaiable at a similar cost and has similar layout to the Teensy, but is made to work for keyboards as its primary use.
Available here. http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=12539447015

This one is gonna result in a ton of wires going everywhere (I made a line follower using an Arduino).
From the images I don't think you can't get much shorter for the pins. Maybe if you didn't use the black mounting plastic, you could get it lower...

[TheProfosist]

This one is gonna result in a ton of wires going everywhere (I made a line follower using an Arduino).
From the images I don't think you can't get much shorter for the pins. Maybe if you didn't use the black mounting plastic, you could get it lower...

I dont think it would be enough to clear though the board+usb is thicker than the space would allow though I have no measurements to back this up.

[TheProfosist]

Also I have an update about key caps for the DOX http://tinyurl.com/6sdspp3

[bloodygood]

Also I have an update about key caps for the DOX http://tinyurl.com/6sdspp3

Although I do not see why he hasn't released a 61 key set since the KBC Poker has a 61 key set and obviously will need replacement keycaps at some point..

[TheProfosist]

Although I do not see why he hasn't released a 61 key set since the KBC Poker has a 61 key set and obviously will need replacement keycaps at some point..

Hes waiting until he can do all layouts the Pokers will be included. Im sure that if someone really wanted a set now he would do it if they emailed him.

[bloodygood]

Wow this had a bit of a price jump.. I was just looking over his site and noticed this.
$10 http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/custom-keyboard-options/custom-option-upload-your-key-design.html (Ability to add your own custom design per keycap, in other words changing the font/positioning etc.)
Cached version from just a couple weeks ago $0 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:OeOLXr28KQYJ:www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/custom-keyboard-options/custom-option-upload-your-key-design.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
I originally was get that custom done but why add another $10 when just a couple weeks ago it was free. meh guess i'll go with blanks then.

[Soarer]

Teensy adds less height if mounted the other way up, but it's still about 7.5mm from the bottom of the main PCB to the peaks of the solder joints on the Teensy. I used an IC socket, and solid core wire for the pins (much thinner than the pins you'd get from PJRC, but not too thin).

Obviously care has to be taken so the USB socket doesn't short out on the solder joints of the switch above it, but actually it ended up even closer to the PCB than shown in this picture, after the switch's pins were trimmed back a bit...

[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ] 32716[/ATTACH]

Since it's in a socket, it's removable for reflashing etc

[bloodygood]

Teensy adds less height if mounted the other way up, but it's still about 7.5mm from the bottom of the main PCB to the peaks of the solder joints on the Teensy. I used an IC socket, and solid core wire for the pins (much thinner than the pins you'd get from PJRC, but not too thin).

Obviously care has to be taken so the USB socket doesn't short out on the solder joints of the switch above it, but actually it ended up even closer to the PCB than shown in this picture, after the switch's pins were trimmed back a bit...

Why in the world did we not think of that.. mount it the same direction, but from the opposite side.. So the orientation stays the same in other words. USB on top.

but mount it from the opposide side as in your example.
Also in the DOX layout you will notice it will not be direction under any switch pins, so there is no worries about it shorting out a keyswitch.

[TheProfosist]

Wow this had a bit of a price jump.. I was just looking over his site and noticed this.
$10 http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/custom-keyboard-options/custom-option-upload-your-key-design.html (Ability to add your own custom design per keycap, in other words changing the font/positioning etc.)
Cached version from just a couple weeks ago $0 http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:OeOLXr28KQYJ:www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/custom-keyboard-options/custom-option-upload-your-key-design.html+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
I originally was get that custom done but why add another $10 when just a couple weeks ago it was free. meh guess i'll go with blanks then.

Maybe setup time is increased with the custom layouts? I dont $10 changing my mind from having custom legends or not.

[bloodygood]

Maybe setup time is increased with the custom layouts? I dont $10 changing my mind from having custom legends or not.

that is 10$ in addition to the price of having engraved or lasered keys, which already costs more than blanks. Basically doubling the price difference.

[TheProfosist]

Why in the world did we not think of that.. mount it the same direction, but from the opposite side.. So the orientation stays the same in other words. USB on top.

Show Image

but mount it from the opposide side as in your example.

Show Image

Works for me we would just have to remember to flash it before making the botton not reachable and we have to have hazus firmware on there to activate it remotely. Wow ishtob is not going to like this.....

[bloodygood]

Works for me we would just have to remember to flash it before making the botton not reachable and we have to have hazus firmware on there to activate it remotely. Wow ishtob is not going to like this.....

But also remember you can add a couple wires to activate the reset button and then detach them later. Without even soldering them most likely. Remember? The 3 holes right next to the reset button

[TheProfosist]

that is 10$ in addition to the price of having engraved or lasered keys, which already costs more than blanks. Basically doubling the price difference.

where are you getting that from?

WASD V1 Custom Keyboard    
Laser Etched OR Engraved    $139.99    
Laser Etched AND Engraved    $149.99    
Blank    $129.99    Blank    $49.99

WASD Custom Keycap Set
Laser Etched OR Engraved    $59.99
Laser Etched AND Engraved    $69.99

[TheProfosist]

But also remember you can add a couple wires to activate the reset button and then detach them later. Without even soldering them most likely. Remember? The 3 holes right next to the reset button

I dont see it as a problem just remember to put the firmware on before soldering it down.

[bloodygood]

where are you getting that from?

WASD V1 Custom Keyboard    
Laser Etched OR Engraved    $139.99    
Laser Etched AND Engraved    $149.99    
Blank    $129.99    Blank    $49.99

WASD Custom Keycap Set
Laser Etched OR Engraved    $59.99
Laser Etched AND Engraved    $69.99

87-Key Blank Cherry MX Keycap Set - $36.99
87-Key Laser Etched Cherry MX Keycap Set - $46.99
87-Key Engraved Cherry MX Keycap Set - $46.99
+ Custom Option: Upload your keyboard layout - $10
46.99 - 36.99 = 10+10 for custom = 20. Double the costs for custom.

[Soarer]

mount it the same direction, but from the opposite side..

I don't think that would work - the body of the USB plug is thicker than the socket, so needs more space.

[bloodygood]

I don't think that would work - the body of the USB plug is thicker than the socket, so needs more space.

Usb Plug once stripped
once attached to the Teensy
another for good measure
and finally being positioned
I would say that isn't a very big difference in size.
pictures taken from http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Island:24082

Basically remove the pins from the top side, move them to the bottom side. Then wire the USB to the correct holes, and finally mount it upside toward the PCB.

[Soarer]

Ah, ok - that would work!

[TheProfosist]

87-Key Blank Cherry MX Keycap Set - $36.99
87-Key Laser Etched Cherry MX Keycap Set - $46.99
87-Key Engraved Cherry MX Keycap Set - $46.99
+ Custom Option: Upload your keyboard layout - $10
46.99 - 36.99 = 10+10 for custom = 20. Double the costs for custom.

You have to order a custom keycap set to get custom legends which is the one that I posted. The ones you posted are just for default legends only. If your wondering why he hasnt posted a custom 87 set its because he said the price would be almost identical.

[Dox]

Soarer, any info on the thing you are building?

[TheProfosist]

Soarer, any info on the thing you are building?

Thing hes building? Im interested in things an building.