[IC] F62+F77! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[Melvang]

http://www.adv-mfg-svc.com/

I personally haven't done business with them, but Mkawa talks good about their work.  And they are located less than an hour from me by car.

I have spoke with them a couple times for some work and they have always been very helpful and great people to chat with about the trade.

[kirkvomit]

Yes, that thread left off a year ago with "I have some arm ideas" and references a dead repo. It's not listed as an active project on kiibohd.com.

Look, I really like TMK, but not enough to fork it. Xwhatsit's solution is good. Is there something in TMK that you feel like the xwhatsit firmware needs? It would probably be easier to port the feature that way, rather than the other way around.

I'm not familiar with xwhatsit, does it have any website or repo? How many fn layers does it support?
TMK have some features that I really like:
for example double-tap FN key, when I double tap shift key all letters become upper case (so I don't need capslock key any more and replaced it with ctrl key)
also I'm using space FN feature - when I press and hold space it switches layer where I have F keys on the numeric row and arrow keys instead of J, I, K, L.

Is it possible to program keyboard this way with xwhatsit?

[Melvang]

Yes, that thread left off a year ago with "I have some arm ideas" and references a dead repo. It's not listed as an active project on kiibohd.com.

Look, I really like TMK, but not enough to fork it. Xwhatsit's solution is good. Is there something in TMK that you feel like the xwhatsit firmware needs? It would probably be easier to port the feature that way, rather than the other way around.

I'm not familiar with xwhatsit, does it have any website or repo? How many fn layers does it support?
TMK have some features that I really like:
for example double-tap FN key, when I double tap shift key all letters become upper case (so I don't need capslock key any more and replaced it with ctrl key)
also I'm using space FN feature - when I press and hold space it switches layer where I have F keys on the numeric row and arrow keys instead of J, I, K, L.

Is it possible to program keyboard this way with xwhatsit?

Xwhatsit only supports 9 layers max but only 3 function keys iirc, and to my knowledge no double tap or dual role keys.  Again I may be wrong here, I haven't needed that stuff with my AT so I haven't looked.

[Ellipse]

I am trying to get a count of the HHKB style Kishsaver interest.  We are definitely going forward with the HHKB style right shift option - I just need a general idea of how many of those PCBs to make.

Please let me know if you are interested in the HHKB style split right shift option with the caps lock style key and a regular 1u key replacing the larger right shift on the new F62 Kishsavers?  So far about 5 of you have expressed interest in the Google docs form.  I will be ordering all of these next week along with the PCB prototypes.  All the prototypes, plus all the split right shift F62s, will have separate controllers like the xtant PCB in order to keep costs reasonable.  orihalcon sells the separate controllers for about $38 or so, and I have some extras too.  I will order a few extra F62 split right shift PCBs to anticipate further interest.

Some good news:  with the current level of interest (about 86 keyboards reserved so far) it looks like you can order either one of these for $325 if you bring your own keycaps ($350 if you want Unicomps).

Would anyone be interested in paying $40 for an original Model M keyboard to share caps with (you would receive the Model M keyboard too!), or would you prefer bring your own caps / the $25 or $30 unicomp caps with custom printed F1, F2, etc. like on the original Kishsavers/4704s?  I may be able to locate 10 or 20 Model M's at that bulk price.

[Air tree]

I'm interested in the HHKB style split shift, but can we get the right sized shifts for that size?

If not, I'm leaning towards the classic layout.


And I'm pretty down to bring my own caps, but one question, how is the quality of Unicomps caps compared to the models M's? If Unicomps are less than nice, I'll be down for the model M option at $40...

[Ellipse]

Air tree - it will look like a caps lock key with the step and a regular sized Model M key in place of the large right shift key.  I think Unicomp can print "shift" on those keys.  Unicomp does not sell the non-stepped caps lock width key unless you buy a full Japanese key set to my knowledge.

[FrostyToast]

Assuming it's true that the japanese set has a full touch caps lock set that I can use which Unicomp can make I'm in for HHKB layout.
Although it does also depend on the final price difference too.

[Ellipse]

Frosty - I expect to price each keyboard at $325 not counting the keys (just around my initial $350 estimate).  So you can order any keys you'd like through unicomp (I will see if I can order them in bulk for a better price).

Not sure what Unicomp charges for the special key set.

[FrostyToast]

Frosty - I expect to price each keyboard at $325 not counting the keys (just around my initial $350 estimate).  So you can order any keys you'd like through unicomp (I will see if I can order them in bulk for a better price).

Not sure what Unicomp charges for the special key set.

My limit is at around $380 USD. Assuming that the Canadian dollar doesn't plummet again.
$325 is a great price and for that I would definitely be down. 

[azhdar]

Interested in a split Right Shift for F62. Would prefer if we could get a full touch Rshift though.

[Vizir]

I'm down for HHKB style. Would be interested in a quote for bulk keys from unicomp. Then decide if I will source them another way.

[Ellipse]

Anyone interested in an F77 HHKB style split right shift key?  Split with a caps lock style key on the left barrel and a regular 1u key on the right barrel of the right shift key.

Everyone interested would most likely just have to split about $100 in extra tooling costs plus a little extra for the PCB. The more ways it is split, the lower the cost of the F77 HHKB style split right shift option.  So far I have heard about 3 people interested (a $33 or so split each way, plus marginal PCB costs).

[romevi]

That'd be neat.

[Karura]

I'd be interested in the HHKB split shift + 1u Fn, but it would be better if there was tooling for the keycaps as well.

[Ellipse]

Does anyone want to use their own xwhatsit controller or buy a separate controller themselves for their F77 or F62?  I am ordering the prototype quantity PCBs this Sunday evening (all of which require soldering a controller to the capacitive PCB).  You would probably save just $10 or so on the order because the prototype boards are more expensive in low quantities.  The keyboards will come standard with a USB controller included.

The HHKB style split right shift PCBs will all require separate controllers given their lower quantities.

Karura - one of the DT members rsbseb announced his plans for custom tooled keycaps which would go great with this project. 

[scubaste]

I am relatively certain that I will be ordering one in the HHKB layout variety.

[Ellipse]

An update:  Prototype PCBs have been ordered! 

[geniekid]

An update:  Prototype PCBs have been ordered!

 

[darkspider]

I'm a newbie about keyboards but I got interested in this project.
I hope these great boards will be shipped worldwide(I live in Japan).

[Ellipse]

Yes darkspider they will ship worldwide!  I am also open to proxy shipping a bunch of these at once to one person in a given country and then they ship locally, to save on shipping cost.  Please sign the Google docs form in the first post if you are interested!  We are a handful of reservations away from 100!

[darkspider]

I'm glad to hear that :-)
So, I registered!

[Dodgy]

Hope this comes through! Registered

[Ellipse]

Thanks Dodgy - it looks like you registered the 100th keyboard! 

As an update, prototype PCBs should arrive on Monday! And the prototype cases should arrive in 2-3 weeks.

[iamtootallforthis]

I really want to join in but I'm hesitant as funds are tight. Also I can't decide between the F62 or F77 and the HHKB option throws a wrench in everything. I'll probably be in though.

[Ellipse]

Great iamtootallforthis.  I see you are located in NY/NJ per your profile - feel free to do a local pickup in Manhattan to save $25 shipping on each keyboard.

[iamtootallforthis]

Great iamtootallforthis.  I see you are located in NY/NJ per your profile - feel free to do a local pickup in Manhattan to save $25 shipping on each keyboard.

Now it's almost a guarantee!

[darkspider]

Thanks Dodgy - it looks like you registered the 100th keyboard! 

As an update, prototype PCBs should arrive on Monday! And the prototype cases should arrive in 2-3 weeks.

wow, great! I want to know how that prototype is.

[Karura]

I'm quite excited about the prototype.

What about the other components? It won't be cheap to make, but are there currently specsheets sent out and plans?

[Air tree]

Once the prototype is done, would you consider having it reviewed? Maybe by some trusted people who have spent some time with the original Kishsaver for a while? Just for second opinions and all. 


Just a thought.

[Ellipse]

Karura - yep everything was sent out and quoted.  It is a matter now of finishing the order of prototype parts.  The price of $325 "bring your own keys" or $350 with regular Unicomp keys has been finalized.  There will also be options to order whatever custom keys Unicomp has in stock e.g. HHKB style Backspace and Right shift, number keys with front printed Function notations, etc. once a prototype has been fully assembled and tested.

Air tree - maybe you can review it if you are in NYC in a month or so?  I plan on a meetup where you can see and test the prototypes during the month or so that orders will be accepted.  I will also post detailed typing and sound comparisons with some of my original Model F keyboards (122, 77, 107, PC AT).  Bring your own keyboards to compare!

[Techno Trousers]

I live about as far as you can get from NYC in the continental U.S., but I'm really looking forward to hearing everyone's impressions!

[Ellipse]

Look what arrived in the mail today from China

Some truly nice PCB design work by one of the senior GH/DT contributors who has been very helpful throughout the PCB design process! I could not have done this nearly as well as he did!

Interestingly the standard unaltered copper color used today for the traces (as well as the PCB material) is a lot less dark than what was used in the mid to late 80s but reminds me of some of the very early beamspring PCBs, at least when back illuminated.

It is my understanding that the tradeoff to getting a darker copper color is you would need to change the solder mask from the current clear solder mask to dark brown, but then you would lose the nice transparent effect where you can see the back side column traces through the PCB (another more expensive PCB shop may be able to do custom copper and PCB colors but that is out of budget).

A note - the bottom inner assembly pictured with the new PCBs is from an original F77 - the prototypes have not yet gone into production.

[darkspider]

Although I don't know what does the copper color means in real use, the PCBs look very beautiful for me.
I also must appreciate the man who you says helped you to design the PCBs, thank you.
You say cases will come in just few weeks. I can't wait it and its reviews.

[Ellipse]

Success!  I soldered the controllers tonight and both the F77 and F62 PCBs are working so far.  I made some extra prototype PCBs in case anyone wanted to use one of their own xwhatsit controllers.

I have ordered the CNC milled and powdercoated F77 and F62 case prototypes; they should go into production this week or next week.

Below is the EPS foam (Styrofoam) design for packing each keyboard, similar to the design of the original foam from my NIB F77 and made of the same material.  The design is the same for the top and bottom piece to save on tooling costs.  Extra foam and double walled custom fit boxes will be available for order if you wanted one for your original F62 Kishsaver.

[geniekid]

Nice job Ellipse!

So the next step is case, then...plates?  Barrels and flippers?  I'm very excited.

[Air tree]

Very exited for this to be put all together!

Oddly enough, this will be my first board with BS, let alone capacitive BS.  )

[Ellipse]

Yep geniekid the other prototype parts should go into production in a week or two - meaning the metal case and the inner assembly parts including the barrels, springs and flippers. 

The bottleneck in the prototype process will probably be the barrel and flipper tooling, which could take a few weeks or longer. 

But if all goes well I could be opening up orders in a month or two.  The biggest question mark at this point is the suitability of the carbon infused resin in the flippers to carry the capacitive charge reliably, but I can always change the material if the sample flippers are no good.

So far we are at 110 preorders!

[Techno Trousers]

Ooh, any estimate on the cost of an extra foam+box for an original kishsaver?

I'm glad to see everything is coming along so nicely!

[Ellipse]

Yes Techno - with an estimated production volume of 100+ foam cases and custom double walled boxes, it should be ~$25 or less for the extra CNC milled EPS foam and box. 

[Techno Trousers]

Nice! I'm definitely going to be picking up an extra box and foam in that case.

It's a little off topic for this thread, but have you considered producing similar foam and boxes for 101 Model Ms and SSKs? I'd think there should be a decent market for that among collectors.

[azhdar]

Nice updates, still looking forward to buy a Kish.

[darkspider]

BTW, which model is more popular than the other?
I prefer F61 to F77 because it'll save my desk space a lot.
But considering real use, I think I should buy both.
F77's numpad and arrow keys are also attractive.

[Ellipse]

Yes please buy both

The F62s have more preorders than the F77s.  The F77 is less than 3 inches wider than the F62.

[darkspider]

hmm, it needs time to decide. I'm also considering that I buy 2 F62s, one to use and the other to stock.
Anyway, thank you for the information.

[KatzenKinder]

Wallet so painful T^T

[azhdar]

Wallet so painful T^T

End his misery and execute him.

[Techno Trousers]

Wallet so painful T^T

At least you can justify this as a unique opportunity, and not yet another overpriced Korean custom! But my wallet will need recovery time too.

[RoastPotatoes]

Is there going to be a design on the box?

[Ellipse]

Nope no printed design or logos will be used anywhere.  Instead I upgraded the box to be sturdier double-walled cardboard.

If people want to submit their own logo designs freely I can consider them, but I would not want to consider anything that resembles the original logo.  The keyboard designs have become public domain but the logo is not!

[darkspider]

no print is good.