Community-designed geekhack monthly key thread MAY EDITION

[nullstring]

Love the mockups, but DoubleShots can not have that type of fine line detail.

Curious. Is it truly that it can't be done or that it would require too much detail and time, and thus not be worth it?

Very few things in this world can't be done with enough effort. But I am going to take a guess in say the SP's current equipment and processes will not yield successful results with detail that fine.

[alaricljs]

There's a minimum width required by 2 things, first and easiest to account for is the tooling size.  The cutter that makes the legends has a minimum diameter.  The 2nd requirement is a little more difficult to account for.  You need to remember that the legend is the first shot, and that the 2nd shot is HOT liquid plastic.  Features on the legend that are too thin will just become a discoloration of the 2nd shot.

[JPG]

Unless we go for imsto dyesub?

[mkawa]

right, that legend can only be dyesubbed. however, it would have to be dyesubbed on beige, as dye sublimation has contrast issues with darker keys, since the dye must be darker than the key to be visible at all.

eta: imsto is currently out of stock on beige keys. he says he'll get them back in soon, but is not sure exactly when.

[Lunartuna]

I would buy a set of keys like modifiers or function row that and LED shows through the side of and not the top. Similar to the Vegas Dice set/Feb GH key but with different colours and not so sparkly.

Is side printing an option? Could have a function row with GEEKHACK printed on the side of F1-F8 or F3-F10, that would look sweet with and LED shining through the side behind the lettering.

[esoomenona]

Does he have a money green color PBT cap?

[esoomenona]

Also, regarding the function row, how about a set of F keys, where instead of replacing the whole legend, there is a letter in another color down in the corner, like this? We could have a whole row, and have the legends on the F3 through F10 keys.

[mkawa]

Does he have a money green color PBT cap?

afaik he only has blue, dark grey and beige caps.

[Turbo Slaab]

Does he have a money green color PBT cap?

This! Anything that has to do with money should really be green.....

[esoomenona]

Hmm... well them I guess that leaves SP's PBT caps. They should have one, right?

[mkawa]

I would buy a set of keys like modifiers or function row that and LED shows through the side of and not the top. Similar to the Vegas Dice set/Feb GH key but with different colours and not so sparkly.

Is side printing an option? Could have a function row with GEEKHACK printed on the side of F1-F8 or F3-F10, that would look sweet with and LED shining through the side behind the lettering.

the short answer is no. the only material that can be dye sublimated is PBT, and the clear material we used on the feb keys was polycarbonate (the only plastic SP works with whose base stock is clear).

we can do 2nd shot polycarb in different colors. SP stocks all the colors in the "translucent keys" picture here: http://www.pimpmykeyboard.com/marketplace.php

the sparkly effect under point lighting is due to the refractive nature of polycarbonate, and not something we can really work around. you can lessen the effect by smoothing the surface of your caps with very fine sandpaper (> 1000 grit), but you have to be extremely careful not to scratch the plastic, as that will make it worse.

[mkawa]

Hmm... well them I guess that leaves SP's PBT caps. They should have one, right?

yep. they can't dyesub green on green though. you should be able to get nice contrast with black on green, but the dye is really going to need to be a lot darker than the cap to get nice contrast with SP's dyesub process.

[mashby]

So glad this is taking off! Thank you mkawa. 

[esoomenona]

Yes, i was thinking black on green, like money.

[mkawa]

So glad this is taking off! Thank you mkawa. 

no kisses, please. i only kiss babies and madonna.

[esoomenona]

^Well, I might wager at least some people around here are like a virgin.

[Krogenar]

There's a minimum width required by 2 things, first and easiest to account for is the tooling size.  The cutter that makes the legends has a minimum diameter.  The 2nd requirement is a little more difficult to account for.  You need to remember that the legend is the first shot, and that the 2nd shot is HOT liquid plastic.  Features on the legend that are too thin will just become a discoloration of the 2nd shot.

I see... what about thickening up the little fill lines? I'll play around with the design tonight and see if it holds up.... wait, something you said - "features on the legend that are too thin will just become a discoloration of the 2nd shot." ... could that be exploited in a positive way? If I understand you correctly the machine that makes the initial 'legend' shot has a minimum diameter, but that even if we go down to that minimum size (or slightly above it) the second shot would just envelope it completely, or just be discolored. A discoloration might actually look kind of cool... maybe? I mean, we had the clear second shot from January I think, so it seems that SP is certainly willing to experiment a bit. Maybe each keycap would have slight differences that are interesting?

I acknowledge that there's a relationship at stake here, with SP and Melissa, and that we don't want to wear out our welcome. So long as that relationship isn't jeopardized, why not show them the design and ask if it's possible? The worst they can say is 'No.' Or -- what we need to do to make it possible. As for the exploitation of this, maybe the resulting smudging of color would be attractive.

[Krogenar]

So glad this is taking off! Thank you mkawa. 

no kisses, please. i only kiss [..snipped..] madonna.

NASTY! LOL

[JPG]

Does he have a money green color PBT cap?

afaik he only has blue, dark grey and beige caps.

Hum, then we could go for money green on beige imsto dyesub?

I like Krogs mockup:

[Krogenar]

Does he have a money green color PBT cap?

afaik he only has blue, dark grey and beige caps.

Hum, then we could go for money green on beige imsto dyesub?

I like Krogs mockup:

Thanks, I'll put together a black on Green layout.

The more I look at it, the more I can see that the thin inner lines aren't the only issue. The serifs on the letter itself fall into the same category, just too thin. The connector on the 'H' would also probably be way too thin.

[GordonZed]

Does he have a money green color PBT cap?

afaik he only has blue, dark grey and beige caps.

Hum, then we could go for money green on beige imsto dyesub?

I like Krogs mockup:

Thanks, I'll put together a black on Green layout.

The more I look at it, the more I can see that the thin inner lines aren't the only issue. The serifs on the letter itself fall into the same category, just too thin. The connector on the 'H' would also probably be way too thin.

I know we have some designers here, so I'm sure if we had to, someone could pop open Illustrator and modify the font: less/thicker lines, play with the serifs, try and keep the money look while simplifying the glyph for the double shot process. I don't know if anyone is willing to volunteer, I've volunteered for a couple things here but my full-time job has kept me from finding the time.

[i3oilermaker]

I'm happy to help mock-up any plausible ideas since I understand the line thickness limitations.

[Krogenar]

I'm happy to help mock-up any plausible ideas since I understand the line thickness limitations.

I used the 'Currency' font, but I can send you these mockups -- I made them in Illustrator. Can I send you an email to techkeys.us?

Also, the other issue is that this would probably only work for 'G' and 'H' -- trying to spell out 'GEEKHACK' for a modifier would probably be impossible. Unless we used a filled-in version of the same font. Not sure if that would look good.

[mkawa]

re: 2-shot they have to be converted to path regardless, so do that first, then one can attempt to thicken the lines and up the spacing.

it's necessarily going to look a lot fatter when done as a doubleshot, basically.

re: dyesub. the first color scheme should be ok for dyesub. black on tan should come out with some nice contrast. the second design won't dyesub at all, as the print must be darker than the keycap. basically the text will have to be black to get that out of dyesubbing.

re: 2-shotting very thin lines or inadequate separation. it will almost certainly just look bad, and it will be impossible to do QA. don't bother. think about what's happening. the first shot is formed by injection molding with a grid pattern behind it. then, a second shot of plastic is formed around the first shot. the grid pattern draws the second shot plastic through the first shot. however, both pieces of material are basically molten at this point, and very likely the only thing that keeps the legend formed is the engineering constraints of the legend design. hence, breaking these constraints will cause the legend to melt into the second shot. this will only cause the "clean" bit of discoloration you are imagining if the mixing forces are isometric and normal. if they're not, they could end up mixing in highly unpredictable ways and you'll just get weird ugly tie-dye keys.

[esoomenona]

re: 2-shotting very thin lines or inadequate separation. it will almost certainly just look bad, and it will be impossible to do QA. don't bother. think about what's happening. the first shot is formed by injection molding with a grid pattern behind it. then, a second shot of plastic is formed around the first shot. the grid pattern draws the second shot plastic through the first shot. however, both pieces of material are basically molten at this point, and very likely the only thing that keeps the legend formed is the engineering constraints of the legend design. hence, breaking these constraints will cause the legend to melt into the second shot. this will only cause the "clean" bit of discoloration you are imagining if the mixing forces are isometric and normal. if they're not, they could end up mixing in highly unpredictable ways and you'll just get weird ugly tie-dye keys.

That makes a lot of sense. Thanks, kawa.

[Lunartuna]

Full modifier set or more singles of second shot polycarb is my vote.