[IC] geekhackers vending: kester 44

[mkawa]

a couple questions i would like people to answer:

1) are people more focused on efficacy or price? that is, should i buy a whole bunch of the stuff that's just past its shelf life and package it into more reasonable rolls, or should i buy brand new solder and divvy that into rolls? i and others have bought pound rolls made in 2009 off a certain ebay seller and they seem ok. the flux is less active than brand new 44 rosin core, but the price is less by a factor of 3. that said, i get around it by having a separate bulk bottle of rosin flux that i use liberally and was definitely within its shelf date when i bought it.

2) how much per package? the old school small rolls of solder used to be about 4oz at a time. and you can get through 4oz in a few months when you have active projects going. if not, you didn't spend a whole lot. i'm only going to package up one quantity for ease of fulfillment, so decide on a happy medium. no one (including me) wants a whole frickin pound of the stuff at a time, but 2oz is too little and 12oz too much.

3) diameter of the solder? i know a lot of people here like 0.020", and i like somewhere between 0.02" and 0.025", but 0.015" is even better for SMD work, and without a 1lb spool to drag along as you feed the solder (it will be rolled and then packaged in vials like they used to do it in the old days!), there's much less of a chance of snapping the solder. 0.03"+ is way too wide for our work, and ironically it's still easy to get rosin core 0.03+" because that stuff gets used for like, pipes, where rohs has no power.

[MOZ]

1. Price, I use separate flux anyway, so I would like to save money.

2. 3oz

3. I like 0.02"

[JPG]

1. Price, if the difference was small, it would be different, but a factor of 3 is huge.

2. Hard to tell but I would say 4 oz so that we don't end up using it too fast.

3. Go for the most standard choice that is proven to work well for keyboards.

[pixel5]

1. Price. Currently it can be had from $23 per pound on amazon.
2. I can't really say, I'm not into soldering yet as much as I will be soon...but I think the more I could buy the better, so I don't have to buy often.
3. I've only worked with thicker lines, so anything smaller than what I've been using would be awesome.

[SpAmRaY]

Whatever works best for typical keyboard work!

[CPTBadAss]

1) Price
2) I found that 3.2 oz was more than enough. I previously bought that amount from GupGup and its a good amount. Enough that I can use it for a lot of projects but it's not a whole pound.
3) I really like .020".

[damorgue]

1) Undecided. It can sometimes be cumbersome to always have to apply flux as well and you need to do more things/have more hands but if the difference is that large, bring on the flux.
2) Some amounts which fits neatly within the limits of shipping postage. International buyers might want a bit larger as to not have to buy too many times. 4-5 oz?
3) I like them larger. Although a bit delicate, I have managed to solder some smaller components with 0.03" and it also works nicely for larger cables and higher current applications. I don't have to feed as much of it in case of larger joints either. I'd prefer if it was 0.02-0.03"

[mkawa]

ok, i've done some research. if price point is it, then give me a price!

[mkawa]

also, i'm not going to vend ****ty solder. i've been using my old stock kester long enough to give in to the reality that the flux is mildly active at best.

[JPG]

Bah, around 20-25$ shipped to Canada? Am I in a good range? Lowe would b nice, but I would prefer some quality still.

[CPTBadAss]

Paid like $12 for my order last time. I'd be comfortable with that price point again. $15 max shipped in the USA.

[pixel5]

ok, i've done some research. if price point is it, then give me a price!

I'm not in a position to throw extra money I don't have out there... I have to go with my cheapest option. I think that's going to be less than $1.50/oz ~$2.00 shipped. If you can beat that, I'll probably end up buying from you.

EDIT: My math sucks.

[mkawa]

i can't even ship for less than 2$, unless i cut some VERY significant corners that are not a good idea to cut. you're just not going to get what you want for that price, i'm afraid. Heck, it makes no sense for me to vend at such low base prices simply due to the time involved.

note: even if you meant 2$/oz, that's also not going to be possible. sorry. the droids you're looking for are elsewhere.

[mkawa]

ok, if i carry this, i'm going to do 3oz for 12.50 + shipping. i am going to have to confirm, but this will be for fresh kester 44 63/37 rosin activated 66um core, 0.020" diameter solder packaged in a dispenser vial. this will be a factor of 3 cheaper than you will find this amount of non-expired kester anywhere. IF there's enough interest, i will stock a trial amount as a value-add for orders, but frankly i'm probably going to end up losing money and huge amounts of time on it if there isn't sufficient demand.

that means that geekhack will lose money on it. and that's really not the point of geekhackers at all. so speak up or forever hold your peace sirs.

and i really don't care how much you can buy surplus expired stock for on ebay. i have a spool of that and i refuse to vend it because frankly it's bad solder for new solderers. you're better off getting alphametals, mg chem, chemtronics rosin blah blah or god forbid, no-clean anything than to buy that stuff. it's fine for me because i solder a lot, i have a lot of extra flux, i'm incredibly anal about calibrating my iron, i know how to sink sensitive components, and i have a closet and a room full of organic solvents.

it's not good for people new to electronics, and if geekhackers is going to lose money on something, it's going to be something that's good for the community as a whole. access to the _best_ hobbyist solder still being manufactured without having to shell-out-for-a-gigantor-spool-which-you-then-discover-is-expired is good for the community.

[MOZ]

Price seems fair to me, given how you said it is fresh kester 44.

[pixel5]

I don't mean to sound like a hater... but serious question, why is GHers trying to sell products like this when there is no way we can get them cheaper than what can easily be found on a daily basis from 10 other places?

Just doesn't seem wise. Like you said, even at the higher prices you're still losing money. Not that you're trying to turn a profit, but you don't want to LOSE anything.

[mkawa]

you can buy 3oz of fresh kester 44 RA 0.02 for 12$? please show me where.

GHers is a non-profit organization with exactly two missions: first, provide stuff to geekhackizens which is difficult to obtain otherwise. small packages of bulk items, for example, or customized tools that exceed manufacturer specifications via minor modifications. second, MAKE MARGIN on these products to raise money for the geekhackers fund, the balance of which is only to be used on projects that benefit the geekhack community or the website itself.

the second one is the trickiest, because it's retail, and i'm not forcing people to buy things or even really marketing (i'm terrible at that. i'm an engineer and researcher who likes embarking on bizarre science projects for my own satisfaction and the public good, not a marketer in any way shape or form). the first is much simpler. there are tons of things that geekhackizens want but can't easily get. kester 44 is one of them. it's still technically in production but finding less than a pound at a time with a recent manufacture date is pretty much impossible. the market has shifted to no clean and water soluble fluxes. water soluble is no good because it's too corrosive. no clean is no good because it's barely even active. the best hobbyist solder is RA 63/37, but as i just established, RA core is hard to find, and 63/37 isn't leadless which means it isn't rohs which means that production is spotty and almost non-existent. it's HARD TO GET THIS STUFF, especially in europe, where there's no point in selling leaded anything because the EU lead police will bear down on your house with chiral x-ray scanners and de-lead you.

[pixel5]

Ok, I understand the Europe situation.

But I mean, I'm not an expert in this area...but a quick search for 'kester 44 RA 0.02' and I got several results from $2.00 to $2.50 per oz. It was all different sizes on my search, from .025-.06. Sure it came by the pound, but if you're soldering so much that you're looking for something like this why wouldn't you buy by the pound to save money?

I don't mean to sound like i'm not a supporter of GHers, there are tools specific to keyboard making that you guys have talked about that you really can't find anywhere else...and I'd be interested in those. But this is one product that isn't exactly rare, by my quick google searches. Maybe I'm just stupid and not seeing some special characteristic of the product that no one else has.

[SpAmRaY]

I know I've asked this sort of thing before but most ebay sellers list their solder in so many ft, how does this compare to 3oz? I believe I got confirmation before that 12ft was .3oz so that would be 120ft at 3oz but that seems like an awful lot.

And when you talk about putting it in a tube for dispensing do you have a picture illustrating?

I think I know what your talking about just double checking.

[pixel5]

I know I've asked this sort of thing before but most ebay sellers list their solder in so many ft, how does this compare to 3oz? I believe I got confirmation before that 12ft was .3oz so that would be 120ft at 3oz but that seems like an awful lot.

And when you talk about putting it in a tube for dispensing do you have a picture illustrating?

I think I know what your talking about just double checking.

You make a good point about how the larger quantities come in spools vs an easy dispensing tube. I'd say the prepackaged-in-a-tube solder is more valuable to me than not.

[mkawa]

Ok, I understand the Europe situation.

But I mean, I'm not an expert in this area...but a quick search for 'kester 44 RA 0.02' and I got several results from $2.00 to $2.50 per oz. It was all different sizes on my search, from .025-.06. Sure it came by the pound, but if you're soldering so much that you're looking for something like this why wouldn't you buy by the pound to save money?

I don't mean to sound like i'm not a supporter of GHers, there are tools specific to keyboard making that you guys have talked about that you really can't find anywhere else...and I'd be interested in those. But this is one product that isn't exactly rare, by my quick google searches. Maybe I'm just stupid and not seeing some special characteristic of the product that no one else has.

i literally had a pound of alphametals 0.025 for 15 years and barely made it through a third of the thing. a pound of solder is a HUGE AMOUNT OF SOLDER. i'm not sure that you understand this. 3oz will take a very active hobbyist a year to go through. now multiply that by 5, and in the middle, you get very busy trying to get a phd. oops, 15 years later you still basically have a lb of solder.

[pixel5]

Ok, I understand the Europe situation.

But I mean, I'm not an expert in this area...but a quick search for 'kester 44 RA 0.02' and I got several results from $2.00 to $2.50 per oz. It was all different sizes on my search, from .025-.06. Sure it came by the pound, but if you're soldering so much that you're looking for something like this why wouldn't you buy by the pound to save money?

I don't mean to sound like i'm not a supporter of GHers, there are tools specific to keyboard making that you guys have talked about that you really can't find anywhere else...and I'd be interested in those. But this is one product that isn't exactly rare, by my quick google searches. Maybe I'm just stupid and not seeing some special characteristic of the product that no one else has.

i literally had a pound of alphametals 0.025 for 15 years and barely made it through a third of the thing. a pound of solder is a HUGE AMOUNT OF SOLDER. i'm not sure that you understand this. 3oz will take a very active hobbyist a year to go through. now multiply that by 5, and in the middle, you get very busy trying to get a phd. oops, 15 years later you still basically have a lb of solder.

Dr. mkawa, eh?  And you're right, I probably don't know how much a pound really is.

[mkawa]

I know I've asked this sort of thing before but most ebay sellers list their solder in so many ft, how does this compare to 3oz? I believe I got confirmation before that 12ft was .3oz so that would be 120ft at 3oz but that seems like an awful lot.

And when you talk about putting it in a tube for dispensing do you have a picture illustrating?

I think I know what your talking about just double checking.

i have a few sizes of tubes from the krytox distribution. any of them will work at different quantities. i tested my smallest size of tube and it only held a few grams spooled up at about 2mm diameter. the largest size of tube i have will easily hold 3oz = 300g, but i will have to spool the 3oz by hand for each of the tubes. that's what i mean by losing money. 0.02" solder, weighs something like 4g per 3ft. making a single spool takes a significant amount of time. and if you mis-spool, crossing the wire over itself, 0.02" solder will snap rather than unkink itself, making using the mini-spool a huge PITA. this is why when you buy the 0.5-1oz spools they give it to you in a 2oz (= 600g if you stuffed it in there) container. it's also why you get a big discount for buying a pound or more at a time.

pixel5, i know you're trying to save money, but you're going to have to trust me here. the math you're doing is wildly inappropriate. you can learn this by experience by buying a gigantic 1lb spool in 0.9" (by accident it sounds like, because when you searched for 0.02" it pulled up ALL the diameters. smaller diameters = MORE MONEY, 0.02" is the the second smallest diameter that kester is sold in and it carries a premium because of it. moving from 0.02" to 0.015" doubles the price. _doubles_ the price) or you can listen to what the others are saying.

[pixel5]

Hey, I can't learn if I don't ask right?

[mkawa]

nope! and if you hadn't asked, the other thousand people who are going to read this won't learn the things i just got out. this place is all about knowledge, but we have so much of it collectively that it literally takes people explicitly drawing it out to get it out of people's heads.

[SpAmRaY]

I have seen solder sold in tubes like this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-X-Kester-020-Diameter-Solar-Cell-Rosin-Core-63-37-Solder-21-feet-X-4-Tubes-/150908608564?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2322daa034

and this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kester-44-Rosin-Core-Solder-63-37-020-3-4oz-Dispense-Pak-48-feet-of-wire-/261260374974?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cd454f3be

^ I think I bought this one a while back.

[JPG]

Well anyway, at 12,50$ + shipping I am down for 1!

[CPTBadAss]

From GupGup's kester 44 solder GB.

As a reference, that's what 3.2 oz of solder looks like. I've built up two keyboards so far. And both have had needed a ton of rework since I messed up on both of them. I've barely dented my roll.

[mkawa]

since you guys are so curious, 1ft of kester 44 RA 66 0.02 63/37 weighs 0.5g. so that ebay listing is 40g of solder for 10 dollars.

on top of that i can guarantee you that it's expired.

see those rolls of cptbadass's? they're going to snap all. the. time. you're going to waste a ton of solder because you're going to have these tiny little lengths that have snapped off. it's a PITA. to do this properly you actually need a motorized spooler rig, frankly, and a core. i didn't price that out, but now that i've seen the gupgup mess i think i may. also 3oz of 0.02 is an effing huge amount of solder.

[pixel5]

since you guys are so curious, 1ft of kester 44 RA 66 0.02 63/37 weighs 0.5g. so that ebay listing is 40g of solder for 10 dollars.

on top of that i can guarantee you that it's expired.

OOOHH Shelf life of 2 years. NOW I understand the desire to not buy huge quantities. I didn't know flux cored solder had a shelf life.

[CPTBadAss]

see those rolls of cptbadass's? they're going to snap all. the. time. you're going to waste a ton of solder because you're going to have these tiny little lengths that have snapped off. it's a PITA. to do this properly you actually need a motorized spooler rig, frankly, and a core. i didn't price that out, but now that i've seen the gupgup mess i think i may. also 3oz of 0.02 is an effing huge amount of solder.

I was going to re roll it onto a spool myself but I just haven't yet. Hm.

Edit: FWIW, I haven't had any lengths that have snapped off yet but we'll see.

[mkawa]

SOLDER HARDER MAN

[Neebio]

Do what the real frugal men do and solder those sub-half inch lengths by holding it with a pair of tweezers!

I have no idea what kind of solder I got from my robotics teacher back in high school (5+ years ago, shelf life shmelf life), but that stuff still works wonders compared to the lead free silver crap I got more recently... too bad lead is lead 'n all...

[mkawa]

i hate lead free and no-clean SO MUCH you have no idea.

[jdcarpe]

If you sell 3oz tubes of Kester RA 44 .020" for $15 shipped, I will buy it.

I bought one of those 3.2oz rolls from Gupgup, and I've barely used half of it. That's probably a dozen keyboards built. Like CPT, I haven't had any snap off on me, but maybe I need to SOLDER HARDER.

I bought a pound of that expired stuff from eBay, but I doubt I will ever use it, if you keep selling fresh stock.

[MOZ]

LOL, I have a pound of 63/37 solder and it worked well for my ErgoDox, and I think it will last me a lifetime fir sure, I do have a endless supply of flux, so no problem there.

[mkawa]

now you guys have got me thinking.. let me talk to some fellows. i might be able to one-up this to THE NEXT LEVEL

[JPG]

mkawa getting into super Saiyen mode!

[SpAmRaY]

mkawa how about including a small bottle of flux also

[damorgue]

Few sources sell it locally in EU, and it costs roughly $120 per pound for new stock with little selection as far as diameters or smaller amounts go. Here is a local source which sells it for 848,52 kr = 130USD
A source for smaller amounts would be great, and prices appear far more reasonable in the US. Germany appears to have one reasonable source of what might be new stock but doesn't offer international shipping.

On the note of why not buy a pound. I have soldered quite a bit lately but it would take me several lifetimes to go through one pound.  Frankly, I will likely not be able to use 4 oz before its shelf life has passed. Selling on a per ounce basis might be useful although a bit of a hassle for the one packaging it.

[mkawa]

mkawa how about including a small bottle of flux also

ironically you can ship fluxed solder willy nilly, but you can't ship flux willy nilly. in fact, you can't ship it undeclared via USPS, and it must be declared and only go over ground over UPS. it's a bit of a mess, really. i think that one's out, sorry.

selling by the oz is the next level i was referring to. impossible to do by hand butt....

[pixel5]

mkawa how about including a small bottle of flux also

ironically you can ship fluxed solder willy nilly, but you can't ship flux willy nilly. in fact, you can't ship it undeclared via USPS, and it must be declared and only go over ground over UPS. it's a bit of a mess, really. i think that one's out, sorry.

selling by the oz is the next level i was referring to. impossible to do by hand butt....

Willy Nilly doesn't need that solder. Just send it to me instead.

Also thats pretty lame.

[mkawa]

flammables are big no-no in shipping best to order from the usual sources or buy it brick and mortar. they have all the necessary _stuff_ in place to deal with handling those shipments properly. it's also much easier to find RA flux than it is to find good RA fluxed solder.

what i think i'm going to do as a stopgap is order a little fresh solder for europeans, as it simply sounds like you're starving out there. it looks like i'm going to have to dev the winder myself, so i can use this trial run to amortize the winder dev. this won't happen immediately, but i should have something to ship out to you guys pretty soon. lead-free and no-clean is an abuse no one should have to endure, period.

[pixel5]

mkawa, what is your estimated time frame for this?

[mkawa]

a week just to have something. i can assemble small beta spools on demand as soon as i have the material.

[SpAmRaY]

mkawa how about including a small bottle of flux also

ironically you can ship fluxed solder willy nilly, but you can't ship flux willy nilly. in fact, you can't ship it undeclared via USPS, and it must be declared and only go over ground over UPS. it's a bit of a mess, really. i think that one's out, sorry.

selling by the oz is the next level i was referring to. impossible to do by hand butt....

Had no idea

/off topic just bit but seeing as how is there a recommended flux or will any flux do?

[JPG]

mkawa how about including a small bottle of flux also

ironically you can ship fluxed solder willy nilly, but you can't ship flux willy nilly. in fact, you can't ship it undeclared via USPS, and it must be declared and only go over ground over UPS. it's a bit of a mess, really. i think that one's out, sorry.

selling by the oz is the next level i was referring to. impossible to do by hand butt....

Had no idea

/off topic just bit but seeing as how is there a recommended flux or will any flux do?

I am no expert, but in an old school video linked they said that for electronics, you need to get specific flux, non acid flux mainly.

[damorgue]

Fill a metal tube with flux, seal the ends and call it a solder wire with a 99% flux core?

[Neebio]

Fill a metal tube with flux, seal the ends and call it a solder wire with a 99% flux core?

Doing that may get you put on some watch lists you may not want to be on...

[mkawa]

buy RA flux, MG chem is my favorite, ironically, but chemtronics is also good. RMA and R are also acceptable IF YOU ARE A WEAKLING

don't buy OA, SRA or IA. these fluxes are actually far too active. yes, you can use them for electronics, but they are overkill and on top of that if you use too much you can eat through your joint and board. ouch.

R is basically no-clean, but there are WW (water soluble) non-rosin fluxes and other no-clean fluxes as well. basically if it's not corrosive enough to need a little bit of cleaning afterward, it's not corrosive enough to help you make a clean joint quickly.