How difficult is it to adopt a new layout?

[jalli]

For the last 6 weeks I've been designing and training myself to use a custom keymap+ErgoDOX.

Currently I'm at 35wpm, that's after 10 training sessions of 45 minutes each spaced out, no more than one session per day.

Since I'm a Programmer/SysAdmin by day I need to retain my QWERTY skills, hence I decided that I would only do the new layout on ErgoDOX to segment the layouts in my brain.

In my experience there isn't much benefit in training more than 1 hour per day, after the first day I have never gained more than 5wpm in a single day, better to take it slower and let it come naturally.

Based on my observations I would say 10 days, 1h per day should be enough for a working proficiency.

For those that are curious what a truly international layout looks like I've included a screenshot of my Layer 0, using dead keys and modifiers.

[demik]

For me, I'm not willing to learn a new layout, so QWERTY for me.

That's why I still use a MS Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000

Okay?

To each their own I guess.

Demik, I wish you luck in changing layouts - it's awkward but since qwerty is an abomination you'll be glad you did it. 

Have fun with the coding too.  I couldn't imagine life without coding now.

Don't understand why he posted in a thread that had nothing to do with what he likes. Well other than raising his post count.

Anyway, thanks! I'll give it my all.

[tufty]

Currently I'm at 35wpm

There's far too much stake put on raw typing speed.  See the "150wpm+" thread, for example.

I can still type faster using [qw|az]erty than I can using colemak, and that's faster than my ergo speed.  However, [qw|az]erty makes my hands and wrists hurt, colemak is little better, but ergo makes it possible to type for extended periods.

Having just come out of 10 days of twice-daily valium & profenid injections for serious back pain*, I don't want to be doing the same for my hands and wrists later.

* I now have buttocks like a colander

[1pq]

I've been super interested in an alternative layout, but my biggest concern is writing code. I do that for a living, so it's a daunting prospect. Workman looks particularly interesting as it was designed by a programmer. @demik, I'd be interested in hearing what layout you switched to and what your experience doing so was like.

This is slightly off topic, but do you use any custom layers on your ergodox for coding? I was thinking of getting an ergodox and using one of the thumb keys to toggle a layer so that I could have braces, brackets, and symbols all easily accessible from the home row.

Also, you should definitely consider the "qwerty by day, [insert layout] by night" approach. It isn't as confusing as it might seem, and it's much less frustrating in the beginning. It definitely helped me a lot with colemak.

[tp4tissue]

Currently I'm at 35wpm

There's far too much stake put on raw typing speed.  See the "150wpm+" thread, for example.

I can still type faster using [qw|az]erty than I can using colemak, and that's faster than my ergo speed.  However, [qw|az]erty makes my hands and wrists hurt, colemak is little better, but ergo makes it possible to type for extended periods.

Having just come out of 10 days of twice-daily valium & profenid injections for serious back pain*, I don't want to be doing the same for my hands and wrists later.

* I now have buttocks like a colander

such.. awful imageries 

[neun_sechs_zwei]

I switched to Dvorak a little over a week ago and am at 35 wpm now. I did the ~two dozen lessons on "ABCD" and then went cold turkey... I felt like (prob same as other schemes) you can get enough by learning home row really well then start mixing in other keys easily. On the other hand there are some common sequences you want to get down well, for letters off the home row.

Been a long time since I meant to do it, about ten years, and as such I didn't consider Colemak or other layouts. Always been comfortable and fast enough on QWERTY. But anyway the two things I would've ignored (if I had actually been making a decision about it) are ease of learning/closeness to QWERTY (totally don't get that, for a years/decades-long investment); and hotkeys (there are too many important unix keys like U, W, A, R, J, K, T, N, P etc for this to be a factor, and at least for directional keys the changes haven't been totally insane...).

There are some interesting consequences from Dvorak that I'm sure have been well noted here, like pinky for L and S, but no big deal. But actually I have the most trouble with F and Y, swapping them essentially, and a little with I since it feels pretty common to be in the center column. On the other hand, some of the same-finger repeats I was worried about at first have turned out to be just fine, like GH, UP, UI.

Things I really like about Dvorak are the punctuation keys, common finger rolls like TH, NT, OU, CR, EA, QU, CH and sequences like GHT, etc.

So anyway, just do it! I think you can do some lessons for a few days and continuing to type normally as I did, before switching over. For answering urgent work mails/chats I just used my phone, which is a great crutch. (Interestingly I remember feeling confused once in the beginning when using QWERTY on the phone, but that seems to have passed as the keyboard muscle memory has firmed up...)

One tip I would share is to think ahead in terms of digraphs... beyond the next key you need to the next two, and also thinking beyond the space following a word to the first letter of the next. That helps the flow moving and the muscle memory of consecutive letters feels good to develop early on.

Overall it really feels good to have your hands move a lot less (I call it the "fake typing look" when I see coworkers who type Dvorak banging away at speed...)

I'm also hoping to keep some speed/accuracy at QWERTY—really refreshing to hear on this thread that others have done that as well.

(also... new here... looking forward to getting a WASD keyboard this week for fun at home and to try out a new kind of switch, think I've got the keycap colors picked out... and already have put blank keycaps on the Kinesis I use at work! One thing about this forum though... typing QWERTY is annoying as hell on Dvorak but I suppose I better get used to discussing it...)
 

[jacobolus]

I agree. One of my biggest gripes about Dvorak is the placement of "L" on a pinkie, particularly an upper pinkie key which requires twist to press. I suspect that switching them may mess a little with digrams and trigrams that include "O", but it would take a lot of analysis to prove one way or the other. Even without the switch it's a very good layout, with good reasoning behind most of the letter placements.

You're messing with us, right Oobly? Perhaps your resting position is different from mine, but the only key that I find myself having to twist my hand for is Z and Q. I personally think that having a key on the pinkie makes more sense, because it's only a single key and it's literally impossible to miss the L key if it's the only thing that you pinkie is naturally resting on.

On a standard keyboard (and using the QWERTY names for convenience) I also find the "P" key quite difficult to hit with the pinky. Instead, I use the ring finger for that key, as well as for "0", "-", "+", and backspace. The pinky simply can’t easily reach those keys without substantial hand movement. (I use the right pinky for "[", "]", "\", ";", "'", enter, "/", and shift.)

The standard "Sholes"/IBM layout really overloads the right pinky far too much. In a neutral hand position, the pinky is quite a bit below other fingers, and most easily reaches sideways or slightly downward. Having more than one or maybe 2 keys above the "home" pinky position is very problematic.

To type on a standard layout keyboard, it's most comfortable to to angle the hands quite a bit, which doesn’t allow the standard-as-taught finger-key associations to stand.  My finger use on a standard keyboard is based on which movements are most comfortable for me, and looks like:


... which completely throws a wrench into all the calculations that were done to come up with existing alternative key layouts.

Much better of course is to design a custom keyboard that fits the way my hand *actually* moves most easily. But then the standard key layout criteria are also no longer relevant, so I’m going to need to write some code for computing my own optimal layouts. (Yay more work!)

[1pq]

Wow, that's almost exactly how I use a keyboard. I'd be interested to see what sort of layouts you come up with.

[MsYutai]

Learning a new layout is difficult! I switched to norman layout 9 months ago and I only get 80 wpm max. I don't practice typing everyday, but probably should because I make so many errors!!

I don't recommend the norman layout by the way, it's too right-handed for my taste-- also it's too focused on common words when I'm over here programming... I find typing in chat goes a lot faster (than programming) with this layout due to the home row utilization.

I think if I could go back and do it again I'd pick Dvorak or Colemak.

[blackbox]

The biggest problem for me is that even if a convert and learn to type effeciently on another layout I am still stuck with qwerty layout everywhere else. I work as an IT technician/support and I type on alot of different keyboards in one day.

[Vibex]

The biggest problem for me is that even if a convert and learn to type effeciently on another layout I am still stuck with qwerty layout everywhere else. I work as an IT technician/support and I type on alot of different keyboards in one day.

I use a colemak layout for the most part, but when I have to I can seamlessly switch to QWERTY. It's surprisingly easy to do. I would recommend colemak to anyone who wants to type with more comfort.

[blackbox]

The biggest problem for me is that even if a convert and learn to type effeciently on another layout I am still stuck with qwerty layout everywhere else. I work as an IT technician/support and I type on alot of different keyboards in one day.

I use a colemak layout for the most part, but when I have to I can seamlessly switch to QWERTY. It's surprisingly easy to do. I would recommend colemak to anyone who wants to type with more comfort.

Interesting, thanks for the advice.

[Agiel]

I used Dvorak for three years and then switched to Colemak almost 6 years ago. I'd say it took me around a month to get up to a comfortable typing speed both times, going cold turkey after having memorized the layout. I reached my current 90-100wpm after a year or so. The second switch was obviously a lot less painful since I had been through the process once before.

By now I've mostly forgotten Dvorak but I've tried going back a few times. While I've never stuck to it I'd estimate it'd take me a couple week or so to get up to 60wpm. I can't say how long it'd take to reach full speed.

As others have said, going back to QWERTY is surprisingly easy. Probably because I touch-type Colemak and Dvorak and never did before I switched. I need to look at the keys though which is why I never got key caps in the new layouts, for the occasions I use older programs where the layout is hardcoded.

[nomaded]

As others have said, going back to QWERTY is surprisingly easy. Probably because I touch-type Colemak and Dvorak and never did before I switched. I need to look at the keys though which is why I never got key caps in the new layouts, for the occasions I use older programs where the layout is hardcoded.

I've been typing Dvorak for 10 years, but this is what I do. I have to connect to lots of different machines on a regular basis, and some will let me use Dvorak, others I need to use Qwerty. When I need to type Qwerty, I glance down at the keycaps from time to time. Also, there's a bit of security-through-obscurity when the keycaps have nothing to do with the logical layout it outputs.