Author Topic: 4th generation ergonomic layout  (Read 19296 times)

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Offline Yotaka

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Re: 4th generation ergonomic layout
« Reply #50 on: Fri, 13 January 2017, 20:06:29 »
I don't doubt that having the keys aligned by the metacarpal angle is more confortable/ergonomic.

What I doubt is that being "the most important part as a ergonomics keyboard" versus for example wrist angle or hand height.

Hello AMongoose

There is a misunderstanding, Sir

What I mean by "the most important part as a ergonomics keyboard" is that, improving that typing area(Characters) is the most important part as a ergonomic keyboard ingeneral. I am not saying that this keyboard, or its typing area is the most important part as a ergonomics keyboard. If you take a look at my context

Offline Yotaka

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Re: 4th generation ergonomic layout
« Reply #51 on: Fri, 13 January 2017, 20:50:20 »
Yotaka, I bet davkol meant a need for a pointer to a peer reviewed study by his asking for citations.

Although I personally can agree that a spread out columns may be marignally better reachable but it has a problem. It would help only if you have one column of keys per finger. But that is not the case. Pointing fingers and the pinkies have two columns each. Spreading the columns makes the outer top column keys even more far away. Those keys will require either hand movement or more extreme stretching of the fingers. People who will not learn habits of hand movement will stretch fingers more and it will be a pure negative for them because of the spread out columns.

When fingers are almost extended it is very easy to move them a bit to the sides. Especially true for pointing fingers and pinkies. This is not true when fingers are half bent. That is the reason why I think datahand keyboard sucks.

What some people may mind is that you seem extremely unbalanced in your reasoning. Rigorously defending spread columns (which is only a marginal change) with roentgen images but hardly considering other things like thumb buttons or column staggering (which actually make a big difference). And especially a fully split design so that people can adjust separation distance and tenting/tilting angles easily.

You may get a better response from people if you would post to Keyboard forum instead of Ergonomic forum. In the Keyboards forum the marginal ergonomic improvements you do will be probably accepted better and you may reach more audience there too.

Also I bet I have already seen a keyboard with stretch out columns few years ago. Not sure whether they were mass produced. So your company is not as unique in this feature as you might think.

Hello,
I am not sure if it is what davkol mean, maybe here is a misunderstanding.

For pointing finger and pinkies, we admit that in this layout, it is a bit farther to reach the 2rd columns of Pointing and Pinkies. But compare to its nature radial shape, we will consider the overall layout first, still we wanna find the way to void this Pointing and Pinkies problem at the same time. Thank you for your opinions, we are still on our way of optimization.

We have never claim anything too big, right? We just try to do our best in this keyboard, just in the range of what we can control, we do our best, never claim it s the best. A lot to improve for this keyboard, and we are looking forward to hear more of you guys opinions. Our keyboard designed to be a easy adapt ergonomics keyboard with its nature radial shape of layout for general users, layout like this might not be the favorite for programmer, ergodox might be better choice consider of programmer. But what we trying to provide to is for general users, especially typing beginner. That's why we still have the original functions key in the same position, not dramatic change for typing area.

And I agree that our change compare to other ergonomics keyboards today(like ergodox and keyboardio) is just a marginal change on the layout(radial metacarpal shape), even just a little bit, it s still an improvement, it is a little bit better, right? Beside, we are the first company to provide this marginal change. Other ergonomics keyboard have angle between left and right typing area, but never see a keyboard bring up radial metacarpal based shape.Small change is still a change, a little bit better is still better, right?

Yes,thank you for your thoughtful advice, we might have a post in "keyboard" column as well, beside "ergonomic"

Offline Yotaka

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Re: 4th generation ergonomic layout
« Reply #52 on: Fri, 13 January 2017, 21:18:51 »


Okay, I shouldn't have said that "... Making these unsupported claims, is it a trend among manufacturers in modern China? ..."
Sorry if it hurts your bigger collective national ego.
I hope there are still a few makers in China who are really aiming at perfecting their design, but not aiming primarily at making money with half-assed junks, creating more pollution and making child labor problem even more serious in China.

The 'citation' davkol asked for and the missing supports that my term "unsupported claims" refers to are real scientific studies. Real good scientific studies have sound rationales, multiple versions of research design, and then eventually collecting data from subjects for statistical or some other analyses in order to support or reject a claim. It is not just like "... what we can see can feel in everyone ...", "... the citation ... what I mentioned above ..."

Physician is a respectable occupation, and there are tons of doctors in the world, in Europe and in the American countries, in Asia. But their job is different from being experts in ergonomics.
What I studied doesn't matter at all, I would say I know almost nothing compared to what can be discovered.
What I meant by saying that above is instead, please really try to be more professional, if you want to sound like so.
Please see it as an effort to help professional-wannabe Chinese to become more up to standard.

The shape of the lower anatomy of human hands is one thing, whether "spreading of the keys in the upper rows" according to the metacarpal angle in a keyboard is "the most important part as a ergonomics keyboard" is a doubtful statement is another question. And actually whether such a design will enhance usability is already something needs to be answered in the first place.

There are two links to see how to make more professional claims in ergonomics about a design.
More
[/quote]

Hello menuhin

Here is a misunderstanding,What I mean by "the most important part as a ergonomics keyboard" is that, improving that typing area(Characters) is the most important part as a ergonomic keyboard in general. I am not saying that this
keyboard, or its typing area is the most important part as a ergonomics keyboard. If you take a look at
my context.

We hope you can understand that,We are here to asked for advice and keep improving our products, not to promo or anything, if we do, won't be here and
have all these discussion.

We have never claim anything too big, right? We just try to do our best in this keyboard, just in the
range of what we can control, we do our best, never claim it s the best. A lot to improve for this
keyboard, and we are looking forward to hear more of you guys opinions. Our keyboard designed to be a
easy adapt ergonomics keyboard with its nature radial shape of layout for general users, layout like
this might not be the favorite for programmer, ergodox might be better choice consider of programmer.
But what we trying to provide to is for general users, especially typing beginner. That's why we still
have the original functions key in the same position, not dramatic change for typing area.


And I agree that our change compare to other ergonomics keyboards today(like ergodox and keyboardio) is
just a marginal change on the layout(radial metacarpal shape), even just a little bit, it s still an
improvement, it is a little bit better, right? Beside, we are the first company to provide this marginal
change. Other ergonomics keyboard have angle between left and right typing area, but never see a
keyboard bring up radial metacarpal based shape.Small change is still a change, a little bit better is
still better, right?

Thank you for your link, we will look at it. Is that a professor paper? Any practical product base on this? We would love to see.

Offline Yotaka

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Re: 4th generation ergonomic layout
« Reply #53 on: Fri, 13 January 2017, 21:38:40 »
All he poster was a single x-ray... How about interindividual and intraindividual differences? I highly doubt there is much actual research done.. (Coming from an intern in orthopedic surgery)

Hello Ari Gold,

Like what you said, if we consider  interindividual and intraindividual differences, that will be a custom keyboard company.
But how many custom keyboard company could you name it out? Close to zero. So most ergonomic keyboard company, even the famous one, they will design a size that fits most people. But your idea is good and reasonable, just need to consider what it really is in reality.

I know that our change compare to other ergonomics keyboards today(like ergodox and keyboardio) is
just a marginal change on the layout(radial metacarpal shape), even just a little bit, it s still an
improvement, it is a little bit better, right? Beside, we are the first company to provide this marginal
change. Other ergonomics keyboard have angle between left and right typing area, but never see a
keyboard bring up radial metacarpal based shape.Small change is still a change, a little bit better is
still better, right?

I hope you doing will in your intern, looking forward hear more opinions from you.

Offline Yotaka

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  • Posts: 43
Re: 4th generation ergonomic layout
« Reply #54 on: Fri, 13 January 2017, 21:46:03 »
All he poster was a single x-ray... How about interindividual and intraindividual differences? I highly doubt there is much actual research done.. (Coming from an intern in orthopedic surgery)

Or, actually you or anyone else could order a custom keyboard(maybe from some studio), but it will be expensive  :eek:

Offline Yotaka

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Re: 4th generation ergonomic layout
« Reply #55 on: Fri, 13 January 2017, 21:57:50 »
You've asked for advice but I think you were hoping for support and endorsement. Something the community would be happy to give if your project warranted it. You've heard our opinions, all of which offered constructive input. What you do with that is up to you.

Yes, we did hear some great opinions here, and we doing some optimization based on that, it is useful.
Like split the spacebar, 1u put it under N M and V B, have other important functional key in the middle.
But for some disagreement here, we just want to tell people why we doing that and our consideration.
Never reject anyone or be personal on someone. :)