Author Topic: Dharma Tactical Keyboard  (Read 4452 times)

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Offline doctorpiorno

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Dharma Tactical Keyboard
« on: Wed, 18 June 2008, 01:07:58 »
Hello everyone!

I'm an avid reader and first time poster of the Geekhack forums, which I discovered a short time ago while looking for some info on Topre's RealForce keyboards. I'm really glad to have stumbled upon such an active community of like-minded keyboard enthusiasts, and I hope I'll be able to contribute some interesting posts in the future.

Moving on... The reason for my post is that I have temporarily relocated to Japan and, during my last keyboard window-shopping spree, I came across a new keyboard model dubbed «Dharma Tactical Keyboard» (from Japanese manufacturer Dharmapoint) which I thought you guys might find interesting.

Has anyone heard of these? After trying a unit at my local Yodobashi Camera, I was quite impressed. It's marketed as a gaming keyboard, oddly enough, but it seems to be quite frill-free and businesslike: no USB ports, no shiny LEDS all over the place, no performance monitor screen, no special shortcut keys...



The keyboard was impressive in action, though. From my very limited understanding of Japanese, their website claims that they use capacitative keyswitches, and indeed the feeling of the keys is similar to the Realforce keyboards in the shop.

In fact, it could well be a customised version of the RealForce 91: the layout is definitely identical and even the labelling in the keys bears more than a passing resemblance to Topre's products. The main difference I could spot was that the finish on the key tops was matte, more similar to the Filco Majestouch line than the Realforces, and quite a bit nicer if you ask me.

All in all, I left the shop with a pretty good impression and I'm seriously considering getting one of these, even though I'm a buckling spring kind of guy. Sadly, I had to leave my beloved IBM Model M15 back at home before moving here, and the ****ty Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboard I'm currently using as a stopgap is making my fingers weep tears of blood. :(

If anyone has tried one of those for any extended amount of time, could you post your thoughts? I'm pretty tempted by this beauty, but it's pretty damn expensive at ¥22000 (same price as a HHKB Pro, give or take). I would certainly love to have a second opinion before splashing for one of those.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

Fran

Offline xsphat

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Dharma Tactical Keyboard
« Reply #1 on: Wed, 18 June 2008, 02:25:48 »
I'm all in favor of a keyboard called the Dharma tactical keyboard, and it is obviously manufactured by Topre (just like the HHKB Pro series *like I'm using right now*), so I'm fairly certain it would be of similar quality. But on the same note, I've never heard of it, and if it cost the same as an HHKB Pro 2, does it have any advantage over the Realforce 91U? Don't they go for less money?

Offline Skarekrow

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Dharma Tactical Keyboard
« Reply #2 on: Wed, 18 June 2008, 02:46:04 »
Does it have the ergonomic difference in key activation force like the Realforce Keyboards? Or are they all the same activation force? Otherwise its exactly the same as Topre lol; i think i might prefer having it with the same activation force.

Offline doctorpiorno

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Dharma Tactical Keyboard
« Reply #3 on: Wed, 18 June 2008, 03:05:14 »
Quote from: Skarekrow;5703
Does it have the ergonomic difference in key activation force like the Realforce Keyboards? Or are they all the same activation force? Otherwise its exactly the same as Topre lol; i think i might prefer having it with the same activation force.


It's hard to be sure, but it didn't *seem* like there was a difference in activation force when I tried it. I might go to the shop and fondle it some more to double-check.

And yes, xsphat, for whatever reason it's a bit more expensive than the standard RealForce, which sells for ¥19500. Which is odd, because the more I look at both models, the more it seems like they really are the same: the biggest difference I noticed was the nice matte texture of the keytops, and it looks like some RealForce keyboards actually have the same finish. Not the one they had on display at the shop, though - that was distinctly shinier and more plasticky. Maybe an older model?

Guess I'll have to do a little bit more research to be sure, especially now that I have seen Diatec is selling a drool-worthy aluminium enclosure for the RealForce 89. /me WANTS.

Offline iMav

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Dharma Tactical Keyboard
« Reply #4 on: Wed, 18 June 2008, 04:38:48 »
First off, welcome to geekhack doctorpiorno!!  Always happy to see another lurker join in on the conversation.

Seriously, I think I need to take a keyboarding vacation to Japan...being able to window shop for decent keyboards has to be pretty cool.  Are there many keyboards readily available with sane US layouts?  (I couldn't deal with the key layout on that board pic you posted)

Personally, given the same capacitive keyswitches, I'd rather stick with a HHKB pro for the most part...but having separate arrow keys would be nice for some cheesy flash gaming (like in geekhack's arcade).  :)

My wife was born in Japan (Air Force brat like myself) and she'd really to go back to visit, so am definitely serious about heading over there at some point.  So any info you could provide to a potential, visiting US keyboard freak would be appreciated.

Offline doctorpiorno

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Dharma Tactical Keyboard
« Reply #5 on: Wed, 18 June 2008, 05:25:21 »
Quote from: iMav;5707
First off, welcome to geekhack doctorpiorno!!  Always happy to see another lurker join in on the conversation.


The pleasure is all mine. *bows*

Quote from: iMav;5707
Seriously, I think I need to take a keyboarding vacation to Japan...being able to window shop for decent keyboards has to be pretty cool.  Are there many keyboards readily available with sane US layouts?


The Japanese take their keyboarding pretty seriously indeed. Big electronics stores tend to have pretty well-stocked keyboard sections, and most of them have samples of each model for customers to try. To be fair, however, most of those are the usual spongy rubbish by Microsoft and Logitech (Logicool in Japan) along with a liberal smattering of little-known, unremarkable products from other brands.

Most big chain stores do carry several Topre and Filco product lines, however, which is awesome. Happy Hacking keyboards are pretty widely available everywhere, both in the mushy Lite and sweet Pro versions. I have also seen some Fujitsu Libertouch keyboards with a pretty nice feel, as well as some less solid mechanical keyboards by other manufacturers.

From my experience so far, it looks like Japan is a happy place if you're into Cherry blacks, Cherry browns and capacitative key switches. I haven't had much luck finding buckling spring boards, though - probably too noisy for Japan. I guess you guys in the states have it much easier to get your hands on those.

As for sane keyboard layouts... Well, predictably enough most of the keyboards in shops use a Japanese layout, shrunk spacebar, extra keys and all. It doesn't annoy me much, but it may well be a dealbreaker for some.

A few models are available with a US layout (HHKB Pro in particular), but not most of the really desirable Filcos and Topres. If you really want a US version of those, you'd still probably have to order them online (after visiting a shop and drooling over their Japanese counterparts to your complete satisfaction, of course).

Quote from: iMav;5707
My wife was born in Japan (Air Force brat like myself) and she'd really to go back to visit, so am definitely serious about heading over there at some point.  So any info you could provide to a potential, visiting US keyboard freak would be appreciated.


I can only speak for Tokyo and there are probably millions of excellent keyboard haunts I haven't stumbled upon yet, but I can definitely recommend a couple stores. Do send me a PM if you want some ideas.

Offline lowpoly

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Dharma Tactical Keyboard
« Reply #6 on: Wed, 18 June 2008, 06:37:12 »
There might be no dip switches on the Topre 91 (the 89 has them though).

Edit: quoting google translate on key weight:

Quote
outstanding durability and reliability of all key weighted employs 30 g

Miniguru thread at GH // The Apple M0110 Today

Offline bhtooefr

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Dharma Tactical Keyboard
« Reply #7 on: Wed, 18 June 2008, 06:45:22 »
Quote from: doctorpiorno;5708
I haven't had much luck finding buckling spring boards, though - probably too noisy for Japan. I guess you guys in the states have it much easier to get your hands on those.


There's also the fact that buckling spring was patented by IBM, and I do believe that Japan respects US patents... and I don't think IBM licensed it to anyone, beyond the companies that manufactured keyboards for them (Lexmark, Maxi-Switch, and Unicomp.)

Of course, the patent (4118611) did expire 1997-08-30...

Offline IBI

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Dharma Tactical Keyboard
« Reply #8 on: Wed, 18 June 2008, 08:42:14 »
Interesting keyboard, I especially like the switchable caps lock/control and escape keys so you can have an HHKB pro layout if you want.
Owned: Raptor-Gaming K1 (linear MX)(Broken), IBM Model M UK, Dell AT102W, Left-handed keyboard with Type 1 Simplified Alps.

Offline Korbin

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Dharma Tactical Keyboard
« Reply #9 on: Wed, 18 June 2008, 09:42:14 »
Quote from: iMav;5707
First off, welcome to geekhack doctorpiorno!!  Always happy to see another lurker join in on the conversation.

Seriously, I think I need to take a keyboarding vacation to Japan...being able to window shop for decent keyboards has to be pretty cool.  Are there many keyboards readily available with sane US layouts?  (I couldn't deal with the key layout on that board pic you posted)

Personally, given the same capacitive keyswitches, I'd rather stick with a HHKB pro for the most part...but having separate arrow keys would be nice for some cheesy flash gaming (like in geekhack's arcade).  :)

My wife was born in Japan (Air Force brat like myself) and she'd really to go back to visit, so am definitely serious about heading over there at some point.  So any info you could provide to a potential, visiting US keyboard freak would be appreciated.


If you do go IMav, make sure you take a trip to Akihabura. It's blocks and blocks of electronic stores. When you step off the train and into the street and look down at all the electronic stores, you will hear angels singing.
Keyboards: Nyquist, Ergodox, Levinson

Offline djones

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Dharma Tactical Keyboard
« Reply #10 on: Wed, 18 June 2008, 15:04:31 »
I've read about these on japanese bulletin boards (2ch.net to be specific). I (and other board members) are waiting for the realforce 86, which has 30g keys only on the pinky keys and has american layout. I'm not sure if this is a factor for you, but the tiny space bar is a major turnoff in my opinion. (Note to americans: japanese keyboards' space bars are small because the japanese don't use the space bar nearly as much as we do).

Quote
outstanding durability and reliability of all key weighted employs 30 g

Yes, according to the site the OP gave, all keys are 30g, which makes this the only keyboard from topre besides the 106S to have all-30g keys.

They claim N-Key rollover (though all topre's have n-key rollover, no?) Also, this board comes with custom software for creating keybindings. (i think?)

I'm going to japan in july; did you go to yodobashi camera in akihabara? what kind of selection did they have? Is it true the streets of japan are paved with brown cherry keyswitches? Like imav, I have wet dreams of window shopping for high quality keyboards.

Offline xsphat

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Dharma Tactical Keyboard
« Reply #11 on: Wed, 18 June 2008, 15:13:23 »
The shorter space bar really doesn't mean too much to me. I only hit the space bar between the b and the n.

Offline djones

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Dharma Tactical Keyboard
« Reply #12 on: Wed, 18 June 2008, 15:59:12 »
Quote from: xsphat;5733
The shorter space bar really doesn't mean too much to me. I only hit the space bar between the b and the n.


yea but then there's the parenthesis keys which have been shifted to the left (shift-8 is left paren, shift-9 is paren right), and the small back space. but I might be nitpicking... i've been thinking of switching to dvorak anyways. I'll have to try it in japan while window shopping :D

Offline doctorpiorno

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Dharma Tactical Keyboard
« Reply #13 on: Wed, 18 June 2008, 21:38:32 »
Quote from: djones;5732
I'm going to japan in july; did you go to yodobashi camera in akihabara? what kind of selection did they have?


You mean the one that is the size of a small stadium? Oh, yes.

They do seem to have the same selection as pretty much all their other shops, only spread across a wider area. They stock pretty much everything you can find in their online store, though. Here is a link to their keyboard page (sorted by price - the really good stuff is at the bottom). This appears to be a list of keyboards available with a US layout.

Another interesting place for keyboard maniacs in Akihabara is the Ishimaru DOS/V shop near the North side of the JR line Akihabara Electric Town exit which has a pretty good selection and samples of pretty much everything.

There is also a small shop in one of the side streets that run parallel to Chuo Dori - I think it belonged to the Sofmap chain, but I'm not totally sure - that only sells keyboards and other input devices. Most of what they had could be found in the other stores just as well, but it was still a damn impressive sight. I almost wept when I stumbled upon that one.

That said, though, Akihabara is indeed a geek's wet dream. I'm sure there are plenty of fantastic shops I have missed, but the density of the place is such that it would take ages to explore in its entirety. And that's before you realise that there are plenty on shops in the upper floors of buildings as well, not just in the ground floor. Madness, I tell you.

Quote from: djones;5732
Is it true the streets of japan are paved with brown cherry keyswitches?


Depends on the city. There are some places where they ran out of cherries and had to use Alps instead. :p