[GB] Tai Hao (ANSI + Add-On Pack) Keyset Group Buy [ALL SHIPPED >> REFUND ISSUE]

[minho]

Hopefully things clear up after people get their end of month payments or pocket money. 80 people defaulting on their obligations is a very ugly number.

Is this typical behaviour in group buys?  Seems a bit poor to me - at this rate we'll be lucky to see the caps this side of Christmas. 

This not a criticism of Harry, far from it, I'm grateful for his efforts in putting this together, and he can hardly be held responsible for people not paying - it's just marring the experience of my first ever GB.

Depends. One thing that GBs will teach you is to learn patience. Unforeseen circumstances will appear - issues with plastic quality appeared in Ivan's black PBT group buy, douches filing complaints in Paypal for not receiving Brobots slowed down Toxic, and complications just tend to arise. Either way, you learn to make do with what you have and treat shipments like Christmas.

I haven't been here terribly long either - perhaps some more experienced members can refute some of my points or offer nice counterexamples in favor of group buys.

[berserkfan]

Hopefully things clear up after people get their end of month payments or pocket money. 80 people defaulting on their obligations is a very ugly number.

Is this typical behaviour in group buys?  Seems a bit poor to me - at this rate we'll be lucky to see the caps this side of Christmas. 

This not a criticism of Harry, far from it, I'm grateful for his efforts in putting this together, and he can hardly be held responsible for people not paying - it's just marring the experience of my first ever GB.

Depends. One thing that GBs will teach you is to learn patience. Unforeseen circumstances will appear - issues with plastic quality appeared in Ivan's black PBT group buy, douches filing complaints in Paypal for not receiving Brobots slowed down Toxic, and complications just tend to arise. Either way, you learn to make do with what you have and treat shipments like Christmas.

I haven't been here terribly long either - perhaps some more experienced members can refute some of my points or offer nice counterexamples in favor of group buys.

Group buys are all like that. When you gather lots of people over the internet and it practically costs nothing to back out, there will be irresponsible kids.

Also many organizers get hit by unforeseen things, especially with the manufacturer. Remember that no matter how manufacturers are theoretically bound by legal obligations, in practice if they decide something is too expensive or costs have risen or they want to produce for a bigger commercial vendor, they'll dump you. They know you aren't going to sue them.

And of course, there are always little things that organizers forget due to inexperience. I worked out some of these details with Harry because I didn't want him to lose money organizing.

Sometimes organizers forget to include paypal fees. 4.4% lost on one $30 transaction is nothing, on $10,000 worth of transactions that is very significant. Also I'd warned Harry at least twice to weigh the sample set carefully with the correct packaging plus some leeway for extras (he said he had a commercial postage scale). Sometimes the addition of a few gift or alternate keycaps eg stepped caps lock are the straw that breaks the camel's back. A one gram weight difference will bump things up to the next price tier on the postal service, which may cost $0.5 or $2 more and wind up costing the organizer a whole pile of money. I once underestimated shipping by 5 grams (3005 grams pushed me into the >3kg price tier) and IT COST $19 MORE. If that was some massdrop thing with 1000 keyboards, the organizer would have been down nearly $20k!!!

[cookiesowns]

Sorry for the delays.

Payment has been sent!

[bazemk1979]

Sorry for the delays.

Payment has been sent!

you sir deserve a cookie

[minho]

Any updates as to when we will be able to order? How many orders are we short of hitting MOQ?

[barkinos98]

Yeah man I'd love to order a set, will this be reopened?

[minho]

Yeah man I'd love to order a set, will this be reopened?

If you aren't able to buy one right now, I'm sure a lot will turn up on classifieds for a pretty low price.

[genkidama]

Yeah I think so, too.

But still if I remember correctly Harry said that if some payments aren't made there is a possibility that some folks can jump right in to get some set combinations and stuff. Just like berserkfan (I guess).

Haven't heard something from Harry for some time right? Was there some kind of deadline for the payments? I'd bet it would be like end of the first week of august?

[berserkfan]

Yeah I think so, too.

But still if I remember correctly Harry said that if some payments aren't made there is a possibility that some folks can jump right in to get some set combinations and stuff. Just like berserkfan (I guess).

Haven't heard something from Harry for some time right? Was there some kind of deadline for the payments? I'd bet it would be like end of the first week of august?

I'm entering to help GhostofHarry and to make this GB a success. I strongly encourage people who are sitting on the sidelines to come in. It's not fair to back out and renege on the deal. And these Tai Hao sets are quite nice looking and not expensive at all.

Although I don't need 2 sets, let alone 4, I am going to buy 4 to help out Harry. And even that's nothing compared with what Bunnylake once did (threw in a lot of his own funding) to make the Toxic Group buy succeed.

[genkidama]

You are really Gutzy

[Zeroblade]

Had some issues with PayPal and funds, but I finally got to pay a couple days ago (just a dolch and granite + addons). Hopefully it all works out.

[chrisq]

I'm also willing to add some more sets if needed to get this GB finalized.
Anyone heard from GhostOfHarry lately?

[bazemk1979]

I hope the gb don't flops.....

[tommybutters]

Finally managed to sort my payment out, sorry for the delay.

Life + illness + work + university starting back up left me away from things for a bit... but here we are

[RaVNzCRoFT]

I hope it's okay that I'm sending out PMs to those who haven't paid yet.  I just sent a mass PM to 50 people and reached the hourly limit; will send one to the last 36 people whenever it lets me.

[kle5635]

Is there a deadline for people to pay?

[metalliqaz]

my money is gone please cancel my order

[sonic_the_hedgehog]

I hope it's okay that I'm sending out PMs to those who haven't paid yet.  I just sent a mass PM to 50 people and reached the hourly limit; will send one to the last 36 people whenever it lets me.

I reckon that's a great idea, hopefully they can start manufacturing soon!!

[berserkfan]

I hope it's okay that I'm sending out PMs to those who haven't paid yet.  I just sent a mass PM to 50 people and reached the hourly limit; will send one to the last 36 people whenever it lets me.

Are you kidding me?

Eighty six people have yet to pay?

One of these days the admins need to whip up some code that monitors this. People who default on three group buys within six months ought to be banned from all group buys for the next six months.

[Elrick]

I hope it's okay that I'm sending out PMs to those who haven't paid yet.  I just sent a mass PM to 50 people and reached the hourly limit; will send one to the last 36 people whenever it lets me.

Are you kidding me?

Eighty six people have yet to pay?

One of these days the admins need to whip up some code that monitors this. People who default on three group buys within six months ought to be banned from all group buys for the next six months.

The nature of Group Buys even when it's this cheap you've got even cheaper bastards hoping they can get these key-caps for FREE.  This Group Buy organizer needs to present a cut off date so that everyone else isn't waiting this time next year for these to get made.

He needs to be like Ivan when running a group buy, the end date is the absolute FINAL cutoff hence no one will be mistaken for missing out on it.  Those that didn't pay don't deserve anything except a kick up the arse out of here.  If you aint got the money then don't pretend to have any in the first place  .

[berserkfan]

Are you kidding me?

Eighty six people have yet to pay?

One of these days the admins need to whip up some code that monitors this. People who default on three group buys within six months ought to be banned from all group buys for the next six months.

The nature of Group Buys even when it's this cheap you've got even cheaper bastards hoping they can get these key-caps for FREE.  This Group Buy organizer needs to present a cut off date so that everyone else isn't waiting this time next year for these to get made.

He needs to be like Ivan when running a group buy, the end date is the absolute FINAL cutoff hence no one will be mistaken for missing out on it.  Those that didn't pay don't deserve anything except a kick up the arse out of here.  If you aint got the money then don't pretend to have any in the first place  .
[/quote]

How can they get things for free by refusing to pay? Are they hoping that GhostofHarry will make a mistake and send them the keycaps anyway?

Problem is, MOQ isn't being met. Ivan's group buys are expensive and presumably have a lower MOQ so he can exclude troublemakers. Harry's GB is much cheaper and Tai Hao isn't so accommodating.

I'm committed to 4 sets now and will even buy a fifth (of a different type) if need be. But even if there were 10 people like me we're still not enough to meet MOQ. Damn SOBs screwing up people's group buys by defaulting.

[DanielT]

AlinH and I bought 3 sets plus 2 addons,I can not understand how one can not have money for such a cheap set and default on the GB.... I was forced once to drop my place in a GB it can happen but we were talking about ~80$ and I feel guilty for doing that even today But I can not imagine that one can not scrap 20-30 bucks .....

[GhostofHarry]

Hey guys, I have been busy dealing with Paypal and didn't have the time to check this thread.

To those who have helped, no matter by sending payment reminders or offering to buy more items, I am really grateful.

Appreciate your help and thankful to your generous spirit.

It's hard work organising a groupbuy but I really enjoy doing it, because of you guys.

About the payment deadline: I have not set one and have not been willing to set one because I believe the folks on geekhack should be self-disciplined enough. But since it's already August and I think I can only give one to 1.5 more weeks (I estimate by then I will have sorted things out with Paypal). By then those who haven't sent me a notice explaining why they have to defer their payment will have their order cancelled.

And FYI, seems the PM reminders worked, a few more people have paid me these 2 days.

About the MOQ:
So far, 221 Dolch ANSI have been paid, and 122 granite ANSI, 95 Olivette ANSI, 159 Dolch Add-on, 97 Granite Add-on, 84 Olivette Add-on.
This figure can be obtained from the online spreadsheet I uploaded.
We're actually having some trouble hitting the MOQ for olivette add-on. I know I've said "taihao is going to accept all of our orders" but that's based on the assumption that everyone was going to pay.

About the issue with Paypal:
Screw Paypal, which, as some of you may already know, holds a suspicious and unsupportive attitude towards groupbuys. I may have to ask some of you to pay me again (I will email/PM these people the details).

And to those people who haven't paid but are going to and happen to see this: can you pay to the email stated on my profile (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;u=33333) instead? Not the one stated in the invoice, but the one on my profile. I'm sorry for the inconvenience.

Thanks for everyone's support again!

[Harrowed]

About the issue with Paypal:
Screw Paypal, which, as some of you may already know, holds a suspicious and unsupportive attitude towards groupbuys. I may have to ask some of you to pay me again (I will email/PM these people the details).

Sorry to hear that. Have they frozen part of the funds or what?

[minho]

And to those people who haven't paid but are going to and happen to see this: can you pay to the email stated on my profile (http://geekhack.org/index.php?action=profile;u=33333) instead? Not the one stated in the invoice, but the one on my profile. I'm sorry for the inconvenience.

I already paid, but just for reference for those who haven't, could you post the email address or link it some other way? I can't find it on your profile (unless I'm exceptionally bad at navigating GH, which is a possibility ).

[Zeroblade]

There is an option to send an email to GhostofHarry (under the avatar), but I can't get the actual email address.

[numiru]

I still haven't received my invoice for my revised order, otherwise I would have paid by now
Edit: invoice received and paid, thanks

[GhostofHarry]

There is an option to send an email to GhostofHarry (under the avatar), but I can't get the actual email address.

Oh!? Maybe only myself can see my email address!?
Is there a privacy setting?

Anyway, PM me if you can't find it

Thanks

[GhostofHarry]

About the issue with Paypal:
Screw Paypal, which, as some of you may already know, holds a suspicious and unsupportive attitude towards groupbuys. I may have to ask some of you to pay me again (I will email/PM these people the details).

Sorry to hear that. Have they frozen part of the funds or what?

Exactly. And as far as I know this has happened to previous groupbuy too. Apparently they classify groupbuys as what they call a "pre-selling business model", which they are hostile to, no matter how one emphasises the fact that organising a groupbuy is not selling products but rather only negotiating with the supplier and placing orders on behalf of a group of people.

[LechnerDE]

I don't think it's the best idea to post your email publically.

I hope this is not your main mail? Maybe you should write it as [at] to prevent bots from grabbing it...

[GhostofHarry]

I don't think it's the best idea to post your email publically.

I hope this is not your main mail? Maybe you should write it as [at] to prevent bots from grabbing it...

You're very, very right, sir. Thanks

[Fire Brand]

If it helps at all I would be happy to buy another Olivetti Add on pack if it will help any

[chzel]

GhostofHarry, if needed I can jump in for an Olivetti set + add on.

[RaVNzCRoFT]

I've now sent all reminder emails, except for a few people whose names in the spreadsheet don't seem to correspond to an actual GH username.  From the responses I got to my last message (I've now stated that all responses should be directed to GhostofHarry), it seems like some people cancelled their order but plenty of others are still interested in paying.

[Glenn315]

Keep on working hard Harry!

[berserkfan]

There is an option to send an email to GhostofHarry (under the avatar), but I can't get the actual email address.

correct. Harry is seeing the email address directly only because he's the owner of that account.

[berserkfan]

About the issue with Paypal:
Screw Paypal, which, as some of you may already know, holds a suspicious and unsupportive attitude towards groupbuys. I may have to ask some of you to pay me again (I will email/PM these people the details).

Sorry to hear that. Have they frozen part of the funds or what?

Exactly. And as far as I know this has happened to previous groupbuy too. Apparently they classify groupbuys as what they call a "pre-selling business model", which they are hostile to, no matter how one emphasises the fact that organising a groupbuy is not selling products but rather only negotiating with the supplier and placing orders on behalf of a group of people.

btw how come they have frozen your funds? Did someone complain?

[RaVNzCRoFT]

About the issue with Paypal:
Screw Paypal, which, as some of you may already know, holds a suspicious and unsupportive attitude towards groupbuys. I may have to ask some of you to pay me again (I will email/PM these people the details).

Sorry to hear that. Have they frozen part of the funds or what?

Paypal is notorious for freezing large amounts of money flowing into one person's account.
Exactly. And as far as I know this has happened to previous groupbuy too. Apparently they classify groupbuys as what they call a "pre-selling business model", which they are hostile to, no matter how one emphasises the fact that organising a groupbuy is not selling products but rather only negotiating with the supplier and placing orders on behalf of a group of people.

btw how come they have frozen your funds? Did someone complain?

[Hak Foo]

It's interesting that there isn't a platform engineered for this specific thing.

It's not just keycaps-- I'm sure there are plenty of communities that do group buys for items that fit certain market criteria (requires a specific run size, only sold commercially in far-larger-than-any-one-person-can-use packages, not easily available in the country of demand so it's worth ordering a truckload)

[minho]

It's interesting that there isn't a platform engineered for this specific thing.

It's not just keycaps-- I'm sure there are plenty of communities that do group buys for items that fit certain market criteria (requires a specific run size, only sold commercially in far-larger-than-any-one-person-can-use packages, not easily available in the country of demand so it's worth ordering a truckload)

Massdrop?

Issue with things like this in general is that it introduces another middleman, which will raise costs (presumably. websites dont run for free).

[mys7ix]

Thanks Harry for taking all this time to coordinate this. This is by no means an easy GB with users literally across various continents. Kudos to the few other helpful members who are chasing on the payments. There's simply no way to blacklist such users who simply do not pay unless it's the same GB coordinator.

P.S: Have resent my payment.

[thestage]

There's simply no way to blacklist such users who simply do not pay unless it's the same GB coordinator.

sure there is. you ban people.

[mys7ix]

sure there is. you ban people.

It's still a manual ban where you have to filter through a list of yours with blacklisted users. It's just an extra step which takes up time away from the GB which should not be happening in the first place.

[berserkfan]

Harry, I notice Granite is almost at MOQ but Olivette needs more help.

Originally I said 2+2, but now I will help you buy 1 Granite w add on, and 3 Olivette w add on.

My rough calculation is that they should cost about 112-115 USD w fees and tracked shipping?

[thestage]

sure there is. you ban people.

It's still a manual ban where you have to filter through a list of yours with blacklisted users. It's just an extra step which takes up time away from the GB which should not be happening in the first place.

no, I mean ban people from geekhack itself.  if you commit to a group buy and bug out without saying anything to anyone about it, then you should be banned from the forums.

[Elrick]

Thanks Harry for taking all this time to coordinate this. This is by no means an easy GB with users literally across various continents. Kudos to the few other helpful members who are chasing on the payments. There's simply no way to blacklist such users who simply do not pay unless it's the same GB coordinator.

P.S: Have resent my payment.

Have just done the same with re-sending payment REFUND to another account.

Poor Harry is starting to think all the worst things that could happen in a Group Buy has finally fallen upon him here.  Stay focused and keep your eye on the prize when it comes to getting these finally made.

Before long it will be a distant memory when they start arriving from their factory completed, then shipping will be the next major hurdle.

[bazemk1979]

Harry how many do we currently have paid up for Olivetti add on and whats the MOQ? if TH don't go along with the final numbers of the Olivetti add on I have no problem adding one just to make the MOQ happen, I'm sure others will pitch in to help. Let me know whats TH response

[genkidama]

I'm sorry, I couldn't follow the thread the last few days I only saw some of the post. So how is it now: I already paid some time ago and as I've read PayPal froze the funds for Harry. So will I'll be getting a new invoice eMail or how is this handled right now?

What about the Olivetti, if some peeps won't pay we will have less than the MOQ, will the Olivetti Set be dropped or what will happen than? How will the refund thing be handled? Questions upon questions 

[clacktalk]

Hey Harry, I'd like to add an Olivetti + add on to my order if that'll help you meet the MOQ. Just PM me with details on how to do that, and I'll pay ASAP.

[aatje92]

My paypal went bad on me with 70$ on it . Thanks to the patient GhostOfHarry i have found another method to pay now. Hope no one holds a grudge against me, i was definitely not looking for free keys