Why split keyboards?

[Architect]

So I'm presently in the group buy for for this little piece of awesomeness and I'm trying to decide how serious I am about it, and a lot of my thinking is centered around the split design. Do I want it? Do I really need it?

I've used the Kinesis spread design for years and liked it, other than the footprint. I'm presently using the TE and the bent design is working out well too. So I did a quick experiment - try this and see what you get

• Stand up with your arms at your side
• Bend your arms at the elbows with the hands held out straight (like somebody is going to drape a towl over your arms), arms are parallel
• Now, bend those arms inwards so the hands are touching (forms a triangle with your body)
• Go back and forth a few times like this. Isn't the separated position more uncomfortable than the one where the hands meet in the middle?

I notice pressure on the outside back of my arms, the natural position is where the hands come together centered on my body. Thinking of it that makes some sense, we most frequently use our hands together at some task in front of us, think of the evolution where our primate hands are gathering food or performing some task.

So honest question for people who like the split design (to help me make a decision)

• why do you like it?
• How far apart do you keep the splits?
• What do you do with the space in between the splits?

Thanks ..

[dzd]

I prefer split so that you can put the 2 halves as wide or as close together as you'd like (and adjust it as needed throughout the day).

I also find a wide split, natural shoulder width apart, great for when I am surfing online. I will often be typing something but need to pause to read the screen, or whatever, and letting my hands rest on the keyboard during those moments feels way more natural at shoulder width than in the triangle position.

It seems like triangle-type position might be better for those moments you have some great idea and want to type it out really fast - power typing. But shoulder width is better for all-day comfort and sporadic typing.

I had a split keyboard that didn't really work out, because it was too high off the desk surface. The space in between the splits seem good for maybe a trackpad, or a macro keypad (like the Maltron layout has) - but not an oft-used numeric keypad.

[Input Nirvana]

So I'm presently in the group buy for for this little piece of awesomeness and I'm trying to decide how serious I am about it, and a lot of my thinking is centered around the split design. Do I want it? Do I really need it?

Of course you want it, and you absolutely need it. So stop asking such silly questions. It puts doubt in our fragile little minds. lol

I've used the Kinesis spread design for years and liked it, other than the footprint. I'm presently using the TE and the bent design is working out well too. So I did a quick experiment - try this and see what you get

• Stand up with your arms at your side
• Bend your arms at the elbows with the hands held out straight (like somebody is going to drape a towl over your arms), arms are parallel
• Now, bend those arms inwards so the hands are touching (forms a triangle with your body)
• Go back and forth a few times like this. Isn't the separated position more uncomfortable than the one where the hands meet in the middle?

I notice pressure on the outside back of my arms, the natural position is where the hands come together centered on my body. Thinking of it that makes some sense, we most frequently use our hands together at some task in front of us, think of the evolution where our primate hands are gathering food or performing some task.

One of the key items of ergonomics is to VARY positions rather than be static. Even though there are better/worse positions/actions overall, much of what get problems started are the same, exact actions with the same, exact positioning, over and over for long periods of time. I have always had issues with conventional boards (wrist position, key staggering). Bent, angled, inclined, split, matrix have all improved on the feel/comfort/performance I've needed. I'm not sure any one has been perfect, if it was, I was not aware of it. I'm a huge Kinesis Advantage fan for several reasons (split, matrix layout, keywells, programmability, build quality, etc.) but it's definitely not perfect, and even with my massive mods, STILL isn't perfect.

So honest question for people who like the split design (to help me make a decision)

• why do you like it?
• How far apart do you keep the splits?
• What do you do with the space in between the splits?

Thanks ..

The 'bent design' (ie: TE) is a small change with a gigantic ergo benefit. The 'split design' (ie: Kinesis Advantage) is a larger change. Two, independent keyboard "halves" (ie: Kinesis Freestyle) offers the fantastic benefit of using as a conventional board, bent board, split board and is infinitely adjustable with inclination, which is as natural as it gets.

If you have questions, concerns, doubts, I strongly suggest trying something affordable (Kinesis Freestyle) to isolate the split, separation, and inclination aspects. You won't have a matrix layout, but that will not confuse the other issues. Not trying to sell you, but I have a Mac Freestyle for sale I used for 2-3 months that is an excellent example of those aspects. Because of the Freestyle experience,  I decided to cut an Advantage into 2 halves.

Doxie adds the thumb keys (yay!) and matrix layout (yay!) but not the keywells (boo!).

Obviously, everyone feels more/less comfortable with vastly different situations. I find that particular detail fascinating.

[sordna]

I agree with the last 2 posters, varying the hand positions throughout the day is a huge benefit. Think about it, if you are lying down in what you feel is the most comfortable position, at some point you want to roll over and change your body position. Same thing with your hands.

Even a bigger advantage is the tenting you can do with a split keybard. The palm down position is really an extreme position, just like palm up is.

The natural in-between position of the hand is the handshake position. I've propped 2 Kinesis almost vertically as an experiment, to simulate a vertical keyboard, and could type very comfortably on them (except they blocked my view a bit). So, with a split keyboard, apart from varying the separation from day to day or throughout the day, you can vary the "tenting", or at any rate find and fine-tune the hand position on any axis that is ideal for YOU and not for whoever designed your watever-fixed-configuration keyboard.

[dorkvader]

I'm considering making a tent-mount (probably out of books and capacitors) for my ergoDOX, or possibly chair mounting it. To me, the split design opens up a world of possibility.

[Input Nirvana]

I conduct myself physically different morning verses evening. My body/mind has different requirements at different times.

I'm not a robot.

[Architect]

Interesting discussion, yes OF COURSE I want it ... actually must HAVE it, yes master ...

Well given the price is pushing north of $400 practical matters are intruding (I really need to buy at least three for my home setup, and what about work?). Even given my proclivity to spend whatever I want on computer stuff. Speaking of the ErgoDOX my concerns are

• Split design will take up less space then the Kinesis but more than bent (TE) or regular (ten keyless)
• Need to learn yet another mapping. I'm still struggling with the Caps swap on the TE, and at work I have a Kineisis (pitched a fit to get it, not sure I feel comfortable pushing to get a TE now), I have a Filco on one computer, and when I'm on my laptop use the Apple built in. Four keyboards to switch between, whereas before I had three, and with the Ergo Dox I'd have five.
• Advantage of the bent design (TE) and regular (ten keyless) over the spread or split (Kinesis and Dox) is that all the 'important' keys - control, return, backspace etc, are available to both hands. I'm frequently doing moves now I couldn't before on the spread design, which is pen with right hand (Photoshop) and use keyboard with left. For example, double tap a layer to rename, then use the left to hunt and peck the name for even more one handed goodness. Not really doable with Kinesis due to the wells, and the Dox? Maybe, I guess people do something like that with the Maltron, but don't know.
• Non standard 'board. If I really like it then it's a one off, not to be repeated and what happens when the board breaks or wears out? If I don't like it then I just spent a bundle. I bought backups of the TE in case they go belly up.

Blah blah ... programming is my trade, craft, life, hobby, passion, whatever, so I'm not collecting boards but creating a system I'll use every day.

Thanks for the discussion.

[Input Nirvana]

Interesting discussion, yes OF COURSE I want it ... actually must HAVE it, yes master ...

Well given the price is pushing north of $400 practical matters are intruding (I really need to buy at least three for my home setup, and what about work?). Even given my proclivity to spend whatever I want on computer stuff. Speaking of the ErgoDOX my concerns are

• Split design will take up less space then the Kinesis but more than bent (TE) or regular (ten keyless)
• Need to learn yet another mapping. I'm still struggling with the Caps swap on the TE, and at work I have a Kineisis (pitched a fit to get it, not sure I feel comfortable pushing to get a TE now), I have a Filco on one computer, and when I'm on my laptop use the Apple built in. Four keyboards to switch between, whereas before I had three, and with the Ergo Dox I'd have five.
• Advantage of the bent design (TE) and regular (ten keyless) over the spread or split (Kinesis and Dox) is that all the 'important' keys - control, return, backspace etc, are available to both hands. I'm frequently doing moves now I couldn't before on the spread design, which is pen with right hand (Photoshop) and use keyboard with left. For example, double tap a layer to rename, then use the left to hunt and peck the name for even more one handed goodness. Not really doable with Kinesis due to the wells, and the Dox? Maybe, I guess people do something like that with the Maltron, but don't know.
• Non standard 'board. If I really like it then it's a one off, not to be repeated and what happens when the board breaks or wears out? If I don't like it then I just spent a bundle. I bought backups of the TE in case they go belly up.

Blah blah ... programming is my trade, craft, life, hobby, passion, whatever, so I'm not collecting boards but creating a system I'll use every day.

Thanks for the discussion.

Space: We are talking about a few inches, right? You may try a chair mount, or discover various configurations with a 2 piece keyboard that never even popped into your head before. I did. For a couple inches you may/may not 'lose' there are some potentially powerful gains.

$400 is a bundle, keyboard or not. I deal with tens of thousands regularly, and I often forget how much money even $50 is. Odd isn't it? In every day life how easy it is to lose perspective of such things. I have been 'letting go' of thousands in business for years, and I have been recently humbled. Now I swing by Starbucks and think "$4 for a COFFEE?". Tough argument, but you are used to Kinesis and TE so you can make that decision easily.

Keyboard wearing out/breaks. This is true of any board, and they are all fixable (not that complex). What I'm saying is that for what you get out of it, I don't think that argument is the deal-breaker.

Don't like it: This is obviously huge, the biggest deal-breaker of all. Good thing there are sites like Geekhack where pinheads like us will buy that old piece of cheap junk from you

'Important keys' functionality: Again, huge. See above. Also, there have been several discussions and partial attempts at making controllers, add-ons etc, that will allow massive functionality to be added to any keyboard. I've lost touch with these projects due to my fluctuating personal circumstances. I need to have a hard-core talk with someone 'in-the'know' to see what can actually be done as far as a 'plug-in'.

There will always be a 'hassle factor' when dealing with an unusual, uncommon, custom item. This is outweighed the unique 'gains' that item provides.

Remember, you, like everything that has ever lived, will die, and none of this will matter. Perspective.

[Architect]

Space: We are talking about a few inches, right? You may try a chair mount, or discover various configurations with a 2 piece keyboard that never even popped into your head before. I did. For a couple inches you may/may not 'lose' there are some potentially powerful gains.

I have a trackpad, graphics tablet, XKeys, dictation mic, keyboard and Griffin controllers, there literally isn't room. I had to drop the Kinesis boards with this setup because of same unfortunately.  

$400 is a bundle, keyboard or not. I deal with tens of thousands regularly, and I often forget how much money even $50 is. Odd isn't it? In every day life how easy it is to lose perspective of such things. I have been 'letting go' of thousands in business for years, and I have been recently humbled. Now I swing by Starbucks and think "$4 for a COFFEE?". Tough argument, but you are used to Kinesis and TE so you can make that decision easily.

I'll happily spend 2k, or 4k, or 10 if necessary, I just don't want to spend it unless it is The One. If not I have other uses for that money, for example I wouldn't mind trying a Blue TE (I've been a Brown man my entire life)

Keyboard wearing out/breaks. This is true of any board, and they are all fixable (not that complex). What I'm saying is that for what you get out of it, I don't think that argument is the deal-breaker.

What I'm saying is that I'll buy it if I'm committed/pretty sure it'll be my full time boards. So that means that I'd like to have them around in 15 years. Of course who knows, maybe a new keyboard will come along (I've only switched from Kinesis after 15 years though), or I could swap out the switches etc. The concern is that I'd want to buy backups now regardless.

Don't like it: This is obviously huge, the biggest deal-breaker of all. Good thing there are sites like Geekhack where pinheads like us will buy that old piece of cheap junk from you

True enough

'Important keys' functionality: Again, huge. See above. Also, there have been several discussions and partial attempts at making controllers, add-ons etc, that will allow massive functionality to be added to any keyboard. I've lost touch with these projects due to my fluctuating personal circumstances. I need to have a hard-core talk with someone 'in-the'know' to see what can actually be done as far as a 'plug-in'.

Interesting, just having a separate matrix board works for me for shortcuts

There will always be a 'hassle factor' when dealing with an unusual, uncommon, custom item. This is outweighed the unique 'gains' that item provides.

Yes, I have no problem with that

Remember, you, like everything that has ever lived, will die, and none of this will matter. Perspective.

Of course, I'm just thinking out loud. On the other hand (ha ha), considering that I spend 15+ hours a day working at the keyboard it would seem to be rather an important decision

Another issue (for me) is the function keys versus the arrow block. The Dox has the extras lining the bottom and inner sides, but those are getting pre-empted for Modifiers (Command in the inner bottom, or Control for Windows) and the bottom keys will be used for arrow and brackets a-la Kinesis, where does that leave the function keys? Of course I can put those on an external board, but I am used to and like having them close at hand.

This board is soooooo attractive, but unfortunately I think I'm talking myself out of joining in and will stick with the TE.

Thanks for the discussion, that helped.

[Input Nirvana]

15 hours a day. Wow. Like 7am till 10pm daily. Can't fathom that. I gotta go throw up. OUTside.

[sordna]

The ErgoDox should have a 2nd layer. I imagine you would press some sort of Fn key key and then 1 becomes F1, 2 becomes F2, etc. For F11 and F12 take your pick, it will be programmable so you can arrange it the way you like.

[Architect]

OUTside.

whats that?

The ErgoDox should have a 2nd layer. I imagine you would press some sort of Fn key key and then 1 becomes F1, 2 becomes F2, etc. For F11 and F12 take your pick, it will be programmable so you can arrange it the way you like.

That's a good idea. Problem then becomes modifiers, frequently I use Control or Option which would also need to be used with Fn to get the function keys (OS X uses modifiers and the function keys). Plus learn a new mapping, and I just realized there's no Media keys either (which I frequently use). I'm liking the TE solution of the center Fn key to get access to Media, Shift lock (never use it) and Num lock (not available on OS X for some reason???)

That sucks, it looks so good. I might get one for jollies though, depending on final price.

[sordna]

Shouldn't be a problem. Instead of Ctrl+F1 you'd have to press Ctrl+Fn+1. You shoud also be able to program any keys to be media keys of your choice.

[Icarium]

I'm considering making a tent-mount (probably out of books and capacitors) for my ergoDOX, or possibly chair mounting it. To me, the split design opens up a world of possibility.

Yeah, chair mounting! You have to write it up if you do!

[Input Nirvana]

Chair moun FYI

In the Split Kinesis Mod article, I have pics of my Datahand chair mount, which is made by the same peeps that made the mounting for the old Kinesis Evolution. There is a detailed description of exactly how it works and what the parts are. You can make it for $100 I believe.

This summer I will make one (an exact copy) that I will either put on another chair or sell. You
may want to stay in touch

[Icarium]

Chair moun FYI

In the Split Kinesis Mod article, I have pics of my Datahand chair mount, which is made by the same peeps that made the mounting for the old Kinesis Evolution. There is a detailed description of exactly how it works and what the parts are. You can make it for $100 I believe.

This summer I will make one (an exact copy) that I will either put on another chair or sell. You
may want to stay in touch

wheeeeeeee
you have a data hand, too? you amazing bastard!

[Architect]

DataHand would probably not work for me, nor chair mount - too slow? Not sure why when the Kinesis sits so well in the lap ...

speaking of which I've decided to keep my Kinesis as backup keyboards. They work so well as a laptop keyboard, I have them permanently connected but off to the side, and pull them out so I can lean back and relax while doing some work.

For similar reasons why not get the Ergo Dox I realized? Maybe I can use them to mod my chair, what the heck. The TE is my main keyboard but there's room for more ...

[Input Nirvana]

wheeeeeeee
you have a data hand, too? you amazing bastard!

Amazing, not so much.
Bastard, definitely.

DataHand would probably not work for me, nor chair mount - too slow? Not sure why when the Kinesis sits so well in the lap ...

Datahand is a very completely different animal. I don't think it directly compares to 'standard' typing. It can be used desktop, on lap, chair-mount. It's even different than the old Fingertouch.

 

speaking of which I've decided to keep my Kinesis as backup keyboards. They work so well as a laptop keyboard, I have them permanently connected but off to the side, and pull them out so I can lean back and relax while doing some work.

 ****, there goes my el cheapo 2012 tax deductible equipment acquisition.

For similar reasons why not get the Ergo Dox I realized? Maybe I can use them to mod my chair, what the heck. The TE is my main keyboard but there's room for more ...

Again, if you are looking to chair-mount, I've looked almost everywhere and have listed the only 3 options that seem to work as links in the Split Kinesis Mod Project page. 1 is good that you can buy (over $100), 1 is ok that you can buy (over $100), 1 is excellent that you can't buy anymore, but I'll copy it this summer for a 2nd unit for myself and I'll be happy to make additional for anyone else. It'll be about $100 in parts.

If anyone has any questions I can create a thread with pics comparing with the links.

[Architect]

I have a special, rather expensive chair, I shouldn't mess with it.

nirvana, have you looked at this for a chair 'mount'?

http://www.thehumansolution.com/mobo-chair-arm-mounted-keyboard-tray-system.html

[Input Nirvana]

If done right, all that happens with a chair mount, is the 1/16" thick steel mounting plate is placed between the padded armrests and their mounting plate using the existing screws/holes. No fuss, no muss. No reason to modify or damage any chair, that's not cool. So what do you sit your ass in 15+ hours daily?

I saw the MOBO over a year ago, and it had just come out and it was well over $100. The two drawbacks I noted was the comfort factor (HUGE!) and the lack of overall adjustability (HUGE!). But I do like it in general. I agree with a reviewer it sorta strikes me as a $39.99 item, not $80, but I have not used it. It definitely has it's place.

I've spoken with these two people, and one of the bennies is that they will make whatever you want...which is very neat. The websites are not the best, and some of the photos are kinda beat, but the finish products I've seen are quite nice. Each has it's own killer feature or two, and a compromise/drawback or two. If you take the time, you'll see what I mean.
http://monsta.cc/chairs/
http://www.gamechair.net/photos/photogallery.htm

[Architect]

Bastard, now you've got me thinking about what chair hacks I can pull off

[Proword]

:-D

Joe

[Input Nirvana]

Amazing, not so much.
Bastard, definitely.

Bastard, now you've got me thinking about what chair hacks I can pull off

See above. You were warned.

Show Image

Show Image

:-D

Joe

Yea, yea Joe, we already know you're an ergo-weenie like us, ya got plenty of street cred over here

[Architect]

Show Image

Interesting, not crazy expensive either at around 2k, I put much more into that for my desks. But I wonder why the point? It's a rather limited setup with one computer and few options for extras (they do sell a side arm), your laptop would work almost as well it seems.

[Lanx]

i

i have the same setup basically, mines just attached to a wall instead of looking like a future egg chair, it works really well, sometimes i miss the "desk".

[Architect]

i have the same setup basically, mines just attached to a wall instead of looking like a future egg chair, it works really well, sometimes i miss the "desk".

Is that a human scale chair? How do you like it? I considered that during The Great Chair Search

[Input Nirvana]

The Great Chair Search

You too? ****, it's one helluva search too, isn't it?

$400-$2,500 is the easy part too....

[Lanx]

ergohuman chair, i removed the armrests cuz i just didn't want them, headrest is nice when you go "arh..." and lean back.
chair is best purchase ergonomically.
everything else adds up.
lumbar support really nice.

[dorkvader]

How do you like you Audio technica ATH-AD700's?

Also, is it bad to have the monitors that close (to your face)?

[Lanx]

i've used the ad700 for years, that was when i was playing mmo's if i got new ones i'd get the closed version tho, but i got the open ended ones in case my fiance was talking to me while we were raiding i'd hear her (she played also), otherwise they're great, the most comfortable over the head i've used and sampled, i'm not much of an audiophile but they sound good and being comfortable was important too.

monitor is standard armlength away from my face, i sit in the chair leaned back all the time.

[Architect]

You too? ****, it's one helluva search too, isn't it?

$400-$2,500 is the easy part too....

Yeah, got off lightly at $1k ..

[Input Nirvana]

Just to complicate the issue, of ergonomics...I've never sat in a chair that feels good after hours-hours-hours. I like to change seating at least once a day on the rare days I need to bust out desk work for 6-12 hours. Even a step stool to change it out for a few hours is better than the best range of ergo chairs for 12 hours.

There are a couple dozen top-tier ergo chairs (feel, quality, looks, features) and they all have RIDICULOUS pricing to go along with them. I have a loaded Aeron, with headrest, a very nice and feature-rich chair, but certainly not the best. I loath myself for continuing to look and consider my next chair at $400-$2500.

[Lanx]

i sit at my chair sometimes 12hrs+ a day, it's been more enjoyable ever since i got the chair 4 years ago, to the point that i don't think "man my back/butt/spine hurts sitting in this thing", the fact that i don't think that is awesome enough. (whereas i did before sitting in an aeron office edition)

[itlnstln]

I know I'm kinda OT here, but I like split keyboards because I have freakishly-wide shoulders.  While I do use a standard keyboard (Filco), I have to sit rather far back just to have my hands at the correct angle.  For whatever reason, I just saw the ErgoDox thread and expressed my interest.

[Architect]

Yeah I've spent all my working life (and much of my life) in office chairs. Finally concluded that no chair is good, just some are better than others. The only way to mitigate it is with physical health (I now bike, lift weights and do pushups/situps) and frequent short breaks (get up to get a drink). As long as the chair has plenty of adjustments including back height, seat tilt, seat height (of course), seat forward/backward and arm adjustments (4D ideally) then it should be good. I also sit drafting style (halfway between sit and stand) which makes a huge difference.

[Lanx]

i used to think sitting on bad chairs was really an ergonomic issue, until my friend told me he got a sore on his inner thigh that came about cuz of his hours of sitting at his desk and working, apparently all the sweat accumulated there, he had to goto the hospital and remove a tennis ball sized growth and had a golf ball sized hole in his thigh that he had to stuff with gauze (so i guess it healed) and smelled like death. Now a bad chair can really be life or death.

[Input Nirvana]

I know I'm kinda OT here, but I like split keyboards because I have freakishly-wide shoulders.  While I do use a standard keyboard (Filco), I have to sit rather far back just to have my hands at the correct angle.  For whatever reason, I just saw the ErgoDox thread and expressed my interest.

LOL

Back on topix.....

[boli]

Speaking of chairs, I love my Hag Capisco.

[Inf3rn0_44]

I love this idea, however its hard for me to justify a keyboard for more than $200..

[Lanx]

most mech boards avg 100 to 120... so a 40% price bump (or really 50%) for a mech ergo board is really not much of a difference considering there is great knee replacement surgeries and i've known ppl who have gotten this and for 8months they are in agony from the recovery but afterwards, they feel like they're 20 and run again on their knew titanium knees, but there's no elbow replacement, and a friend is gonna get her wrist bones grinded down... yea i'm like is that from RSI? here have a kinesis! (i literally walked in with my space kinesis and told her to try it out and she can have, she returned it a week later saying it was too weird).

learning to type on a weird looking kinesis is much more preferable to me than to grind down some wrist bones.

[Architect]

most mech boards avg 100 to 120... so a 40% price bump (or really 50%) for a mech ergo board is really not much of a difference considering there is great knee replacement surgeries and i've known ppl who have gotten this and for 8months they are in agony from the recovery but afterwards, they feel like they're 20 and run again on their knew titanium knees, but there's no elbow replacement, and a friend is gonna get her wrist bones grinded down... yea i'm like is that from RSI? here have a kinesis! (i literally walked in with my space kinesis and told her to try it out and she can have, she returned it a week later saying it was too weird).

learning to type on a weird looking kinesis is much more preferable to me than to grind down some wrist bones.

Agreed, I would happily pay Maltron prices if the keyboards just weren't so goofy looking. On a different thread I commented that under $300 for any ergo keyboard is a steal - it's not like these are your average 'board that sell thousands or millions of copies.

[Input Nirvana]

Some moons ago I posted a thread that a Datahand (example only) would be worth $10,000 and I would pay it without a wince, if that's what I needed to continue to type for a living. I don't type for a living, but if I did, and my physical problems were so severe that I could only use a Datahand (that's why I used that as an example) then a $10,000 investment to keep my career going would be reasonable. Do the math. $10,000 for an item that lasts 10 years, $1,000 annually that's about $100 a month. There are many job-related costs that exceed that. In the long run it's cheap.

Very difficult to put a price on health, happiness, the prevention of health problems....

Architect: I was unaware you were so image conscience...(goofy-looking??? It's a KEYBOARD MAN!!!)  Honestly, I'm on the floor laughing.....my only issue with Maltron is that they seem to be a poor dollar value, but I don't own one....yet.

[Architect]

Architect: I was unaware you were so image conscience...(goofy-looking??? It's a KEYBOARD MAN!!!)  Honestly, I'm on the floor laughing.....my only issue with Maltron is that they seem to be a poor dollar value, but I don't own one....yet.

Not so much for what other people see (I've got the weirdest setup at home and work - I constantly get commentary about it), but for myself. Part of ergonomics - for me - is a clean setup. One of the reasons I like Macs, I work better with beautiful equipment. The Maltron is dull grey, has some pebbly lizard texture, the keycaps are ugly, it appears like it was designed by a five year old. That and the price haven't tempted me away from the Kinesis yet, and then TE came along anyhow.

[Input Nirvana]

One of the reasons I like Macs, I work better with beautiful equipment. The Maltron is dull grey, has some pebbly lizard texture, the keycaps are ugly, it appears like it was designed by a five year old. That and the price haven't tempted me away from the Kinesis yet, and then TE came along anyhow.

In my gut I would like to say 'pish-posh, it's about the ergonomics' but, I concur with the form aspect having at least SOME value. I enjoy the aluminum/glass looks of my iMac, iPhone, Magic Trackpad, iPad. The white plastic Airport isn't bad either, extremely clean. One must feel good and positive about surroundings, mental aspects to ergonomics are important, we ain't robots.

No doubt, there are a few minor improvements to appearance the Maltron line could have....wait, do I hear a GH challenge?

Pebbly lizard texture...heheeeee!

[Lanx]

Damn iPad and autocorrect, iPad does feel like a more polished device than say my net book, just can't type for heck. (only have iPad,I touch, and got fiancé iPhone I don't do the computers, I need real power, lol)

[Architect]

input nirvana, speaking of the Maltron, a fixed split design, I've solidified some of my thoughts on the split design

• Splittings claim to fame is to provide more natural separation between the hands, the down side is it takes more desk space
• But then what do you do with the space in the middle?
• Kinesis's answer is 'nothing', Maltron's answer is 'trackball or more keys', ErgoDox's answer is 'whatever you want'
• I don't think a pointing device should be in the middle. All my personal experience in this area has shown it to be way more uncomfortable. Pointing (usually) has an orientation corresponding to screen orientation, so trackballs in the middle are just plain cramped, and trackpads aren't angled (or can only be angled to one side) and cramped to boot.
• To my hands pointing devices (I'm thinking of trackpads, mice and tablets) do best in the 'split position', namely the straight out from the body spot or just off to the right (or left) from there.
• What about putting more keys there? Fine, but the keys I always see are nonce use, such as volume, maybe a number pad ... hardly heavy hitters. But they occupy prime real estate. I have a num pad off to the side for the few occasions I feel inclined to use it, along with specialty keys and it works well in those places.

My little thoughts on the matter ... the TE is my first bent keyboard and I'm finding it very comfortable. Used fixed split for a long time with the Kinesis and never found a good used for the precious middle space. Pointing doesn't work in the middle for me there (too much stretch and cramp), and the space is rather a waste to use for nonce keys (I did have a number pad velcro'd there once.) So ... I'm thinking again that the ErgoDox wouldn't be for me, as cool as it is, yeah, given the likely price (and the fact I'd need to get three not counting spares) I don't see the point.

[Proword]

The Maltron is dull grey, has some pebbly lizard texture, the keycaps are ugly, it appears like it was designed by a five year old. That and the price haven't tempted me away from the Kinesis yet, and then TE came along anyhow.

The grey "pebbly lizard texture" is quite deliberate, as it's designed to minimise reflected glare and hence easier on the eyes.  The keycaps are usually hidden by the fingers so why is that a problem?  A five year old?  Scarcely.  I've met Stephen Hobday on a couple of occasions, and although he was born in 1916, he's still pretty sharp of mind.  He knows what's what when it comes to ergonomics.  And has been pointed out previously cost is minimal, I bought my first Maltron in 1986 and I'm still using it.  Even at today's price of 375 pounds UK, that's roughly 14 pounds UK per year (about $20.60 Aust as at today's prices; $21.70 US) , dirt cheap.  (But it was certainly nowhere near that price originally.)

"Good looking fades but good cooking lasts forever."  Replace "cooking" with "keystroking", and that's my view of Maltron.  

Joe

[Input Nirvana]

Architect:
That is a perfect example of personal preference regarding the split keyboard design, it's mostly a value statement. Whether it be any one of the split keyboards regardless of cost ($100-$1,000), their claim to fame is the ultimate freedom of moving the halves...that's the main selling point. For a cramped work area it can be more difficult, but then you factor in if RSI ergonomics are a factor, which trumps everything. Enter chair mounting or other setups. Pointing devices are always an issue, period. They need to be integrated, period. (see my sig, lol). The only keyboards with integrated pointing devices are Datahand (in the switches), my Split Kinesis (trackpoint), Alphagrip (thumb trackball), and IBMs (trackpoint) (am I leaving somebody out?). The fixed split has pluses and minuses. At one time I thought of splitting a Kinesis, mounting to a sliding track so the two halves would slide closer or further apart.

Proword:
I was ribbing Architect about his opinion of the Maltron looks, but they certainly are all function over form, which is fine. I don't look at the keyboard, so it could be hot pink with mirrored keycaps and it wouldn't affect me while I typed. It sure would bother me from across the room though! lol

A Geekhacker, Noctua, had some some very progressive work on a couple Maltrons that he says he showed them. Perhaps you could ask your Maltron buddies if there's something in the cooker? I'll try to get a hold of him, it's been some time since I've had contact. He speaks German with little English, and I speak pidgin California beach talk with little German, so it's tough.

You two guys type an incredible amount, it's quite astounding.

[Proword]

Proword:
so it could be hot pink ... It sure would bother me from across the room though! lol

Your wish is their command:


(That's Stephen Hobday in the middle, his son Peter on the right, and their local member of Parliament on the left.)

http://www.maltron.com/

An order for 350 Maltrons from Turkey.  I wonder why they wanted pink?

I think "the cooker" is pretty well full at the moment.  They seem to be flat out with just meeting their current demands.

Joe

[Proword]

So honest question for people who like the split design (to help me make a decision)

• why do you like it?
• How far apart do you keep the splits?
• What do you do with the space in between the splits?

Thanks ..

To get back to the original topic, being used to a split keyboard I have to say that I've never thought for a moment I'd like to change anything about it.  It's not a case so much as why do I like it as I really feel very uncomfortable with anything else.  With the Maltron it also has to do with the 3D curve of the keys.  Each individual key is set at a different angle to enable the the finger tip to strike "square on", and if I were to somehow be able to spread or narrow the split, then there's a chance that that  feature would be nullified.


You can see the thinking behind the "key tilting" in this paper, towards the bottom.

http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/academic-papers/234-a-keyboard-to-increase-productivity-and-reduce-postural-stress.html

So from my view the "split" between keyboard halves is only a single factor which I'd have to consider.

Joe