Author Topic: [SHIPPED] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing  (Read 162210 times)

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Offline vewy_nice

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #350 on: Thu, 28 June 2018, 07:08:52 »
Well I got to using a set of my stabilizer inserts yesterday with an Alpine Winter keyset... And they're really awesome!

So that's kinda some good news?

And the tolerance mismatch should be on the MFG, not you. I'd be interested to talk to their QA department :p
I just visited a vendor for work yesterday, and had an interesting talk with QC.

Offline d.caminero

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #351 on: Sun, 01 July 2018, 17:00:59 »
Update:

Samples have arrived! The color of the sliders looks really awesome in person and that is great news as I wasn't sure how well it would translate from CAD render to real life. I assembled a few on my TKC1800 with alps, and they are super smooth.

And the bad news I was eluding to earlier is the slider samples...I received a FAI report, which goes over every measurement for each sample to check if they are within the tolerances given. That is where the main issue lies, I gave them a spec of ±0.05mm, which was always stated on the drawings and even in email. But somehow on the report the tolerance was changed to ±0.10mm, double the tolerance I wanted. Which brings about issues with some dimensions being to small and others too large. Almost every dimension, when checked against the correct tolerance, was very out of spec, meaning every slider sample is basically impossible to tell performance from. They wobble like crazy because the MX mount is too small, out of spec, half of the wobble is just from that, otherwise they should wobble the same as alps do.

Other bad news, the ejector pin impressions seem to catch on the switch plate leaf spring, which sucks because I mentioned it to them a while back, and had the mold design changed to fix that issue. But I will take the blame for that because I just never followed up with that to make sure it wasn't going to be an issue after the change, after the above tolerance issue happened, I wish I would have.

What does this mean? I am not 100% sure yet, because the first issue may mean new molds need to be made as any dimension too large can't be fixed as there is no way to add material back onto the mold. The second issue may be able to be fixed easily, it may not, but if new molds are made, this could be fixed at the same time to never cause an issue. I am waiting on a reply with the FAI report for the top housing, as well as an answer to this question. I just didn't want to leave everyone out of the loop even if I was partially to blame for an issue.

TL;DR: Samples look nice and are smooth. Manu didn't read drawings, doubled tolerance, almost all dimensions are way too small or large. Ejector pin impressions catch on the switch plate leaf, sucks, caught first time, didn't the second. May need new molds, not sure yet. Waiting on a reply from manu to figure this out. Sorry...


Well, it could be worse. Let's hope they assume their error and costs of tooling so we can proceed with this project.
Please, keep us updated even if you don't know nothing yet, usually it's better to say "I have no response yet" than not saying anything at all.

Thanks for your work!

Offline BlindAssassin111

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #352 on: Sun, 01 July 2018, 22:03:55 »
Update:

Okay so after a bit more testing and trying to figure out what I can do on my end in the meantime, in regards to figuring out any issues, I have some news.

First I tested the slider in a matias switch setup, with a tactile leaf and no leaf at all, didn't try click as the switches came pre-lubed and even click modded tactiles make zero noise...The tactile feels really, really nice and the second bump that the simplified mechanism produces is now gone so it feels like a SKCM style tactile switch now. The linear is smoother than anything I have ever felt...The polished mold finish combined with POM is a perfect combination.

I even cut off the click leaf protector bump on a stem for testing in an unmodded alps housing(don't want to file if I don't have to, and wanted to test without my top housing) and it feels the same as the matias in both instances, and it isn't lubed at all. I removed the bump as it would catch on the unmodded top housing, and I wanted to test without that affecting the sounds and feel.

I did test an SKCM click modded tactile leaf and standard clicky leaf, on both the slider with and the slider without the bump, no cap in either case. The no bump switch performs as expected and sounds like a normal clicky switch of both varieties. The slider with the bump sounds...off, the click isn't as pronounced, which was expected as the bump is there to protect the leaf from being crushed by the cap. The switch makes a faint click before actuation, right as the click leaf bends towards the slider and hits the bump, and during release the click happens again, but louder, almost the same as the normal click but sounds different. The faint click isn't as noticeable during normal use, but the second click is, obviously. There is a chance that putting a thicker lube on the bump could reduce that click and make it non-existent without affecting the normal click, but I have no lube to check this theory with.

I didn't expect that to happen whatsoever and don't know exactly why it makes a sound now, as the click leafs hit the slider without the bump at the same points during the actuation, but make no sound. There was no way to have heard this prior as no 3D printed prototype had this happen, most likely due to the part being of a much different structure because of the printed layers and how different the processes are in regards to how the crystalline structure forms during cooling.

Now during this testing I learned something important, the switches don't wobble as much as initial testing did. My initial tests were done with my top housings, which means the top housings need to be adjusted to have less wobble, because this is unacceptable. As well there is no noticeable catching of the switch plate leaf, which means it is probably due to the top housing cavity being off enough to put the slider in an odd position and binding the spring.

So this means there needs to be a little work on the top housings to make them perform as they should. As some of the dimensions are on the absolute edge of the tolerances and the wrong side that I would prefer(meaning some are on the large side, when being smaller than dimensioned is preferred), which causes some issues.

I know this is a long post, but it is important information, and I am trying to perfect what I can at this point, as I don't want the product delivered as it sits. I hate delays as much as anyone, but I can't deliver a crap product. I will probably have to spend money to fix these issues and I hope it doesn't cost much as I can't afford large expenses...

Also rep was still on vacation this past week, so I haven't received the info I was waiting for.

TL;DR: You will have to read sorry. :P

Offline stoic-lemon

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #353 on: Mon, 02 July 2018, 00:43:47 »
Haha I love that TL;DR. Hope you can work things out without having to spend too much money.

Offline Remsky

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #354 on: Mon, 02 July 2018, 02:32:51 »
Im really glad you are taking your time with this. Im sure plenty including myself are fine with waiting when it means more time is spent on making the adapters better. As said above, dont spend too much money!
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Offline 82d28a

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #355 on: Tue, 03 July 2018, 20:45:51 »
Can you show us some pics?


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Offline Albatross

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #356 on: Tue, 03 July 2018, 22:00:34 »
I'd greatly prefer waiting longer for a proper product than receiving an incomplete product on time. Keep hitting us with updates even if the information seems insignificant so we don't get left out along the way. I'd also like to see videos of the prototype progress like you previously did in IC so we can all actually see progress as well, if possible.

Offline jumpmineralwater

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #357 on: Tue, 03 July 2018, 22:40:29 »
Thanks for the detailed update :thumb:

Offline BlindAssassin111

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #358 on: Tue, 03 July 2018, 23:25:05 »
Can you show us some pics?


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I'd greatly prefer waiting longer for a proper product than receiving an incomplete product on time. Keep hitting us with updates even if the information seems insignificant so we don't get left out along the way. I'd also like to see videos of the prototype progress like you previously did in IC so we can all actually see progress as well, if possible.

I will try to do something tomorrow if possible, I took a few pictures but they suck tbh...They are way oversaturated and the color is off. I will look at doing a video instead if I get the time to actually record one.

Offline BlindAssassin111

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #359 on: Fri, 06 July 2018, 14:24:10 »
Update:
Crappy video inbound, currently uploading to youtube, but be prepared for a horrible video...I suck at making them, sorry. :(

If I missed something I am sorry that was the 5th or 6th take and I honestly couldn't remember what I had already said during which take, so I tried...

Link:


EDIT: I also wanted to note that the wobble is much less on Pine housings, I didn't have any accessible at the time of recording. I tried an SKCM Brown and the wobble is almost non-existent, like Kailh BOX level or better. I tried a couple other pine housings and this statement seems to hold. So wobble for bamboo is expected to be worse as I can't make the slider much larger without issue. With that said it will still be slightly better than in the video as the cap wobble and a tad bit of slider wobble will be gone. The top housings will obviously need some work, but not sure at this moment how much changing it will be.

I tried SKCL green and the slider wouldn't actually fit...linear top housings seem to be a bit smaller, but that was just hoping it was possible.
« Last Edit: Fri, 06 July 2018, 23:28:21 by BlindAssassin111 »

Offline waldorf120

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #360 on: Sat, 07 July 2018, 09:11:33 »
Looking good!  I agree with previous comments, would much rather wait for a good product than receive a sub optimal one.

Offline garbo

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #361 on: Sat, 07 July 2018, 10:33:41 »
Thanks for making the video and keeping us up to date on the progress.

It hadn't occurred to me that the LED cutouts would get in the way on the SKCL tops, that's a little unfortunate.

Offline garbo

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #362 on: Sat, 07 July 2018, 10:34:41 »
Thanks for making the video and keeping us up to date on the progress.

It hadn't occurred to me that the LED cutouts would get in the way on SKCL tops. That's a little unfortunate.

Edit: I have no idea how I quoted myself. Sorry for the double post.
« Last Edit: Sun, 08 July 2018, 17:56:26 by garbo »

Offline d.caminero

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #363 on: Sun, 08 July 2018, 16:36:31 »
Thanks so much both for the update and the video!
I completely agree with what others said, don't rush, make any changes and tests you need, just keep us updated even if there's nothing new and the update is just an "hey guys, everything's on schedule, gonna receive more prototypes next week!"

thanks again! I'm really stoked to get this for my pearl!

Offline gbchk

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #364 on: Sun, 08 July 2018, 18:20:24 »
Thanks for the update. So if I understand correctly, there's a bump on the slider to prevent the keycap from crushing the click leaf, but a side effect of the bump is that it creates a secondary click on the upstroke? Is this something that's possible to improve/fix or is it just how it is? A necessary evil type thing? Also, is there any noticeable difference in this behavior with a true clicky switch, e.g. white/blue vs. a click-modded one?

Offline 82d28a

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #365 on: Sun, 08 July 2018, 19:08:52 »
Thanks for the vid. Can you send us pics of the actual parts?


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Offline BlindAssassin111

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #366 on: Sun, 08 July 2018, 20:57:25 »
Thanks for the vid. Can you send us pics of the actual parts?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sorry I am out of town at the moment and I also don't have a camera with a macro lens in order to take a picture of something that small.

Thanks for the update. So if I understand correctly, there's a bump on the slider to prevent the keycap from crushing the click leaf, but a side effect of the bump is that it creates a secondary click on the upstroke? Is this something that's possible to improve/fix or is it just how it is? A necessary evil type thing? Also, is there any noticeable difference in this behavior with a true clicky switch, e.g. white/blue vs. a click-modded one?

Yeah the bump causes the issue and it can't be fixed to my knowledge in a way that doesn't cause that second bump. At this moment it is a necessary evil, I can look into it but I don't know of a fix at this moment. The click is the same with click modded or normal clicky leafs, it may be a slightly different noise, not sure on that one, but they both do it.

Offline fireworm

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #367 on: Mon, 09 July 2018, 00:39:03 »
I wonder if instead of a skinny bump, you expand it to the whole slider width, (i.e., make the bump wider), some of the weirdness would go away?

My theory is that the bump let's the click leaf wobble a bit on the down stroke and upstroke, letting an edge of the leaf hit first, then the center of the leaf 'straightens out'...

/shrug.

Offline BlindAssassin111

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #368 on: Wed, 11 July 2018, 23:36:18 »
Update:

I got the pricing for just changing the stem to fit caps better, $837...So I would expect the change to the slider to be about half that added on top as that price included polishing and new samples. So lets say $419 for those changes. If I were to fix the click leaf protector bump it would cost quite a bit as the machining is more intensive than the stem, so say another $650, bringing the total to $1906 to fix those issues.

As for the top housing I haven't gotten any further on that as I just got back in town last night and received the response/quote at about the same time, so I am in the middle of figuring that out.

With this said, I would actually be paying everyone to have this product after spending that much...which really sucks. And knowing I probably need to spend more on the top housing isn't making this any better. All profit from my vintage PCB GB is going towards helping pay for some of this, but nowhere even close to paying for a single fix.

So not sure exactly what to do at this point, Any ideas are appreciated. I just wanted to make sure everyone was filled in on the situation.

Offline Anakey

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #369 on: Thu, 12 July 2018, 02:54:58 »
i don't understand why there would need to be a change in the stem for the cap, considering the tolerances were out on the samples you got given anyway unless you got new samples that were made within tolerance? As for the bump when using the leaf it seems an awful lot of money to spend when these sliders/housings have already been very expensive already. I mean would the end product function without the changes?

Offline gbchk

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #370 on: Thu, 12 July 2018, 11:51:21 »
i don't understand why there would need to be a change in the stem for the cap, considering the tolerances were out on the samples you got given anyway unless you got new samples that were made within tolerance? As for the bump when using the leaf it seems an awful lot of money to spend when these sliders/housings have already been very expensive already. I mean would the end product function without the changes?

Yeah I'm also kind of confused. Is the additional cost that was quoted something separate from whatever the MF should be fixing due to the tolerances being off? If it's related to the same basic problem, which is that they didn't follow your spec, then you shouldn't be paying anything.

As for the bump, my thought (more so since I originally planned on using these with white Alps) is that it would be ideal to have a final product that has as little possible detriment to the original switch sound/feel BUT only if you knew of a surefire solution beforehand. Since that's not the case, I can't really justify spending hundreds on something that may or may not work. Ultimately it's disappointing because I for one am not sure if I'd be willing to have the double click on my switches - some of my Alps (blue as well) exhibit a weird secondary click on the upstroke and it drives me crazy. But then again, maybe if/when I try it in person it won't be nearly as bad as I'm making it out to be.

EDIT: Would it be possible to re-open the group buy in order to raise additional funds? I know a lot of people missed out on this and it seems like Alps are getting more and more popular by the day. I for one would probably buy a second set for another Alps board if so.
« Last Edit: Thu, 12 July 2018, 11:56:43 by gbchk »

Offline BlindAssassin111

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #371 on: Thu, 12 July 2018, 12:14:31 »
i don't understand why there would need to be a change in the stem for the cap, considering the tolerances were out on the samples you got given anyway unless you got new samples that were made within tolerance? As for the bump when using the leaf it seems an awful lot of money to spend when these sliders/housings have already been very expensive already. I mean would the end product function without the changes?

Long story on that first point, but basically the stems are a tad small I was wanting to increase the bumps by 0.03mm which would allow a tighter fit, but that is out of the original spec technically so I would have to pay to change the spec basically.

Changing the bump may not be necessary for everyone, and may be something I should do down the road as I don't know if the idea I have will actually solve it. But at the same time I don't want to dissapoint those who bought these to use on clicky switches.

Would the slider function? Yes, but it would be wobbly in bamboo or matias housings, have caps that are loose and if using clicky switches, click funny.

Edit:
And I just came to the realization that all of the caps I own have been used on a box switch at some point in time, which actually makes the cap become loose over time due to how much larger the switch stem is compared to cherry and other variants. I have some GMK novelties that have never been on a switch before and they fit better but the cap is easily removed by hand still even though it has the same dimensions as a cherry switch stem. I think the polished mold is causing the caps to come off easier...So it may not need to be done, but it may at the same time.

Offline BlindAssassin111

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #372 on: Thu, 12 July 2018, 12:19:29 »
As for the bump, my thought (more so since I originally planned on using these with white Alps) is that it would be ideal to have a final product that has as little possible detriment to the original switch sound/feel BUT only if you knew of a surefire solution beforehand. Since that's not the case, I can't really justify spending hundreds on something that may or may not work. Ultimately it's disappointing because I for one am not sure if I'd be willing to have the double click on my switches - some of my Alps (blue as well) exhibit a weird secondary click on the upstroke and it drives me crazy. But then again, maybe if/when I try it in person it won't be nearly as bad as I'm making it out to be.

EDIT: Would it be possible to re-open the group buy in order to raise additional funds? I know a lot of people missed out on this and it seems like Alps are getting more and more popular by the day. I for one would probably buy a second set for another Alps board if so.

I have a feeling if I extend the bump to the bottom of the slider the whole leaf surface would hit against the slider as it does in the original switches, which would hopefully distribute the forces more evenly and get rid of that noise, but as mentioned in my last post, I can't guarantee that it will actually fix the problem and there is no easy way to test that theory.

I thought about opening order to raise money, but I would have to double the sales in order to make the needed changes so I don't pay out of pocket for the product to be sold. Which is not really feasible, at least I don't see how I can get another 100ish orders quickly enough.

Offline gbchk

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #373 on: Thu, 12 July 2018, 12:36:59 »
As for the bump, my thought (more so since I originally planned on using these with white Alps) is that it would be ideal to have a final product that has as little possible detriment to the original switch sound/feel BUT only if you knew of a surefire solution beforehand. Since that's not the case, I can't really justify spending hundreds on something that may or may not work. Ultimately it's disappointing because I for one am not sure if I'd be willing to have the double click on my switches - some of my Alps (blue as well) exhibit a weird secondary click on the upstroke and it drives me crazy. But then again, maybe if/when I try it in person it won't be nearly as bad as I'm making it out to be.

EDIT: Would it be possible to re-open the group buy in order to raise additional funds? I know a lot of people missed out on this and it seems like Alps are getting more and more popular by the day. I for one would probably buy a second set for another Alps board if so.

I have a feeling if I extend the bump to the bottom of the slider the whole leaf surface would hit against the slider as it does in the original switches, which would hopefully distribute the forces more evenly and get rid of that noise, but as mentioned in my last post, I can't guarantee that it will actually fix the problem and there is no easy way to test that theory.

I thought about opening order to raise money, but I would have to double the sales in order to make the needed changes so I don't pay out of pocket for the product to be sold. Which is not really feasible, at least I don't see how I can get another 100ish orders quickly enough.

You could always pull a 7bit and start R2 to pay for R1's completion  ;) jk don't do that

Offline BlindAssassin111

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #374 on: Thu, 12 July 2018, 12:58:26 »
You could always pull a 7bit and start R2 to pay for R1's completion  ;) jk don't do that

Would a round 1.5 be okay? Lol. ;)

Offline Anakey

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #375 on: Thu, 12 July 2018, 14:54:57 »
so given how not all keycaps have exactly the same tolorances for stems is it not better to have stems that you may need to put tape on to get a snug fit rather then spending extra widening the stem by the 0.03mm and then having a situation like cherry clears where the keycaps or switch gets damaged by pulling them off?

Offline BlindAssassin111

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #376 on: Thu, 12 July 2018, 15:54:12 »
so given how not all keycaps have exactly the same tolorances for stems is it not better to have stems that you may need to put tape on to get a snug fit rather then spending extra widening the stem by the 0.03mm and then having a situation like cherry clears where the keycaps or switch gets damaged by pulling them off?

I understand where you are going with that but the keycaps are easier to pull off than on a cherry red for example. The current dimension is 1.25mm ± 0.02mm, the proposed new one would be 1.29mm ± 0.02mm, while BOX switches are 1.32mm ± 0.02mm. My current spec would allow all the way down to 1.23mm, which some cavities are at and that is too small and caps don't stay on those too well, while the largest cavity is at 1.26mm and is a bit better but still really easy to pull a cap off of.

Offline gbchk

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #377 on: Thu, 12 July 2018, 16:34:38 »
I'm all for making the stem bigger. Way better to have it be a little tight than loose.

Offline BlindAssassin111

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #378 on: Fri, 13 July 2018, 21:09:27 »
Update:

Okay so after some thinking I am learning towards fixing the stem and the wobble, but leaving the bump as is. Reason being the cost to fix those first two issues is going to wipe me out, and I still have to figure out how to fix the top housings. This may not be the optimal solution but being that I am unemployed, I don't have cash to spend out of pocket. I would love to fix the bump issue, but as stated before I don't know if the idea I have will actually solve it and the only way to know is by spending the money and hoping, and that money is needed elsewhere that is guaranteed a solution.

Now I know I keep saying I need to figure out the top housing, and not actually saying anything. The reason is I am honestly still trying to figure out how that is going to play out, as the solution may cost more than I can possibly spend. I have eluded to that before that the way that mold was done, was not the way I originally envisioned because of cost, and it didn't sell well enough to even begin thinking of doing that method. But it seems that may actually be the only way to fix this, which is why I am unsure at the moment of what I can actually do.

I don't want to hide anything from those who are part of this group buy, as that is just not who I am, even if it comes back to bite me in the ass, I want to be transparent.

Offline pixelpusher

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #379 on: Fri, 13 July 2018, 21:31:50 »
How much are we talking in terms of money for another prototype?  I can help out again if needed. I’m sure others could help out too. 

Offline handmadespam

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #380 on: Fri, 13 July 2018, 21:35:54 »
I'm also willing to help out on funding another prototype if need be--would love for this to turn out nice! Hang in there  :thumb:


Offline BlindAssassin111

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #381 on: Fri, 13 July 2018, 21:41:06 »
I'm also willing to help out on funding another prototype if need be--would love for this to turn out nice! Hang in there  :thumb:

How much are we talking in terms of money for another prototype?  I can help out again if needed. I’m sure others could help out too. 

Last I was told it would cost near the same as the mold, but a smidge less. So maybe $5k...  :'(

The thing is I know that is a 100% solution, but I kinda have to find a cheaper one unless I somehow become Jeff Bezos overnight...

Offline pixelpusher

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #382 on: Fri, 13 July 2018, 21:57:23 »
I'm also willing to help out on funding another prototype if need be--would love for this to turn out nice! Hang in there  :thumb:

How much are we talking in terms of money for another prototype?  I can help out again if needed. I’m sure others could help out too. 

Last I was told it would cost near the same as the mold, but a smidge less. So maybe $5k...  :'(

The thing is I know that is a 100% solution, but I kinda have to find a cheaper one unless I somehow become Jeff Bezos overnight...

hmm...  let's get creative, people.  How can we raise money?

Offline foxmancore

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #383 on: Fri, 13 July 2018, 23:13:42 »
More expensive round 1.5? I missed round 1 and would be totally fine paying some more than others to get these.

Offline BlindAssassin111

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #384 on: Fri, 13 July 2018, 23:26:14 »
More expensive round 1.5? I missed round 1 and would be totally fine paying some more than others to get these.

If I keep the same pricing, I make way more money due to the molds having been paid for. But I would need either 9k housings sold, 12k sliders sold or some combination of the two in order to raise that money...So basically double the sales. That is the one thing that makes that a hard sell, I don't think I can sell that many so quickly again....

Offline gbchk

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #385 on: Sat, 14 July 2018, 00:53:48 »
There's no harm in doing an IC. I think I probably mentioned earlier that there's a lot more interest in Alps now than I've ever seen before.

Have you posted about this project on reddit or DT?

Offline BlindAssassin111

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #386 on: Sat, 14 July 2018, 00:56:53 »
There's no harm in doing an IC. I think I probably mentioned earlier that there's a lot more interest in Alps now than I've ever seen before.

Have you posted about this project on reddit or DT? I feel like DT would get a lot of interest as they're more into vintage stuff from what I understand.

It was, but a very small audience from there joined, Only 7.1% of orders compared to 46.5% for both here and reddit. I think it may not have resonated as well over there as it did here and reddit.

Offline handmadespam

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #387 on: Sat, 14 July 2018, 01:05:08 »
Possibly with some of the stuff coming out now that naturally pair with ALPS, like the Modern M0110, you'll see more interest. I actually picked my set up second hand from someone who bought extra, as I also missed the original GB.

Offline gbchk

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #388 on: Sat, 14 July 2018, 01:07:31 »
Possibly with some of the stuff coming out now that naturally pair with ALPS, like the Modern M0110, you'll see more interest. I actually picked my set up second hand from someone who bought extra, as I also missed the original GB.

Yeah there's also at least two case GBs that I know of that are going to be Alps compatible - UEK and a 65% which I think is called Lunar? Maybe you could reach out to those organizers and get some sort of collab type thing where they plug Nexus?

Offline handmadespam

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #389 on: Sat, 14 July 2018, 01:15:03 »
Quote
Yeah there's also at least two case GBs that I know of that are going to be Alps compatible - UEK and a 65% which I think is called Lunar? Maybe you could reach out to those organizers and get some sort of collab type thing where they plug Nexus?

Great idea! Deskcandy collaborated on the Modern M0110 with the XDA Oblique GB, which has Cherry stems. Given the history of the board it's based on, Alps is a natural fit. Now, how to bring the two together?  ;)

Offline garbo

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #390 on: Sat, 14 July 2018, 04:29:25 »
If I keep the same pricing, I make way more money due to the molds having been paid for. But I would need either 9k housings sold, 12k sliders sold or some combination of the two in order to raise that money...So basically double the sales. That is the one thing that makes that a hard sell, I don't think I can sell that many so quickly again....

It is quite an awkward situation. As a participant, I’d personally much rather wait until you figure things out over receiving a compromised product.

Would it be worth trying again to persuade a vendor to get involved? I know I’ve said this before, and it’s probably wishful thinking, but a deal covering the initial investment with high margin long term sales from the completed moulds in return seems like it would be mutually beneficial. I know you’re working with thekey.company on a project, could they give some advice on the matter?

Offline fireworm

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #391 on: Sat, 14 July 2018, 20:42:07 »
What about asking folks what kind of switches they are using? If they work fine with tactile and linear, and that's what folks have, seems like there isn't a problem here.

What about offering free R2 upgrades for clicky folks?

EDIT: Basically, I'm curious just how many folks are affected.  Personally, I was going to use them on Amber's, but I like Browns too. :P

EDIT 2: I'd do this: Fix the top housings, and mounts (since that's in budget, right?), and ship. I'd put an "I'm sorry" note in with sliders, explaining the clicky switches "may not be to your liking", then offering a full refund in that case. Any returns could be sold as "leftovers / extras" to other folks, who missed out.  Those would be final sales, at a discount.

I really think the amount of folks who will hate these enough to return them is few, and you are potentially making a bigger deal out of this than is necessary. (But I appreciate the honesty, and appreciate your passion in getting it right.)

Its a group buy, so caveat emptor, and it's an R&D project which got close, but needs another pass.
« Last Edit: Sat, 14 July 2018, 21:35:20 by fireworm »

Offline BlindAssassin111

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #392 on: Sat, 14 July 2018, 21:31:10 »
Would it be worth trying again to persuade a vendor to get involved? I know I’ve said this before, and it’s probably wishful thinking, but a deal covering the initial investment with high margin long term sales from the completed moulds in return seems like it would be mutually beneficial. I know you’re working with thekey.company on a project, could they give some advice on the matter?

He has already helped, and that is how we got cheaper pricing initially. I have talked with him but I am not sure if he can swing that towards this project at the moment as it may be a stretch.

What about asking folks what kind of switches they are using? If they work fine with tactile and linear, and that's what folks have, seems like there isn't a problem here.

What about offering free R2 upgrades for clicky folks?

EDIT: Basically, I'm curious just how many folks are affected.  Personally, I was going to use them on Amber's, but I like Browns too. :P

I, for now, won't be doing the possible clicky fix unless I can raise money to pay for that. I need to focus on getting the the other issues fixed before I can worry about that. It isn't the optimal thing to do, as even I will be affected as I only have clicky alps, but I need to spend money wisely. Free R2 upgrades would cost a lot of money and would be smarter to just fix than give free sliders away.

Change priority:
1) Stem fitment - 100% affected
2) Stem wobble - 100% affected (technically it adds wobble to pines, but after fix it will be perfect fitment)
3) Top housing cavity - ~67% affected
4) Clicky switch fix - ?% affected (but guessing less than 50%)

I am going to get official quotes for all changes and go from there so I can more accurately gauge what I need money wise to get this project back on track. And from there I will have to figure out in what ways I am going to have to raise this. Getting the quotes will take most of the week probably so I will update once I get that information.

EDIT 2: I'd do this: Fix the top housings (since that's in budget, right?), and ship the sliders as is. I'd put an "I'm sorry" note in with sliders, explaining the clicky switches "may not be to your liking", then offering a full refund in that case. Any returns could be sold as "leftovers / extras" to other folks, who missed out.  Those would be final sales, at a discount.

I really think the amount of folks who will hate these enough to return them is few, and you are potentially making a bigger deal out of this than is necessary. (But I appreciate the honesty, and appreciate your passion in getting it right.)

Its a group buy, so caveat emptor, and it's an R&D project which got close, but needs another pass.

Fixing the top housings is not in budget at all, that would cost ~$5k, I can barely afford to do the stem and wobble fixes, given my estimation of the wobble and clicky fix costs.

I don't know the percentage of people that would be affected enough to request a refund, but I would like to avoid that.
« Last Edit: Sat, 14 July 2018, 21:37:09 by BlindAssassin111 »

Offline fireworm

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #393 on: Sat, 14 July 2018, 23:29:52 »
Change priority:
1) Stem fitment - 100% affected
2) Stem wobble - 100% affected (technically it adds wobble to pines, but after fix it will be perfect fitment)
3) Top housing cavity - ~67% affected
4) Clicky switch fix - ?% affected (but guessing less than 50%)

I am going to get official quotes for all changes and go from there so I can more accurately gauge what I need money wise to get this project back on track. And from there I will have to figure out in what ways I am going to have to raise this. Getting the quotes will take most of the week probably so I will update once I get that information.


I agree with all that; seems reasonable.  I'd say, get sliders fixed first.

Fixing the top housings is not in budget at all, that would cost ~$5k, I can barely afford to do the stem and wobble fixes, given my estimation of the wobble and clicky fix costs.

OK, so, correct me if I'm wrong : top housings are more or less completely wrong? 2/3 cause issues with the spring / click leaf, because they are the wrong size, right?

And summarizing the other aspect is that, effectively, there is no way to fix this in manufacturing without effectivly paying for redoing it, right?

I see three outcomes for the top housings:
1) Somehow we find a venture capital group, or run a donate drive, to fix our mistake for us.  This takes possibly years, and is tacitly abandoning them. (The housing GB barely made MOQ, I seriously doubt you can sell that amount again, IMHO.)
2) Ship non-functional top housings. Say "sorry", call it a day.
3) Use the one thing we do have in spades, time, to find a hack to fix them ourselves. Apply this fix yourself to all orders, or let nice, trustworthy users help you.

Can you specify where exactly the issue is in the top housings? Like in a stupid ms paint drawing. I wonder if we can like add some scotch tape somewhere to fix the tolerance issues?

EDIT : Funnily enough, scotch tape is 0.03mm thick, which is how much you adjusted the sliders, right? And, that's a cheap fix: one roll per customer is like what, $1?  I'd personally rather have a hacked product sooner, than a perfect one in a year or two...  (and sorry if I'm a little out of the loop, just trying to help fix the problems...)
« Last Edit: Sat, 14 July 2018, 23:50:55 by fireworm »

Offline BlindAssassin111

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #394 on: Sun, 15 July 2018, 00:05:10 »
OK, so, correct me if I'm wrong : top housings are more or less completely wrong? 2/3 cause issues with the spring / click leaf, because they are the wrong size, right?

And summarizing the other aspect is that, effectively, there is no way to fix this in manufacturing without effectivly paying for redoing it, right?

Can you specify where exactly the issue is in the top housings? Like in a stupid ms paint drawing. I wonder if we can like add some scotch tape somewhere to fix the tolerance issues?

Basically the issue stems from having to include draft angles on the internal cavity. A draft angle is the term used when adding a slant on a surface to allow the mold to separate from the part, without causing damage and not creating a vacuum between the part and mold that would make it impossible to remove the part without damaging the mold or part. What this does is make it so the internal walls that the slider moves against get further from each other as you press the switch, making the problem worse and worse. This also creates wobble at the top due to the top of the slider and the bottom of the slider being in two different points on the slanted walls, meaning there is more space on the bottom that allows the bottom of the slider to move, creating the wobble.

200027-0
Example: The red faces have draft, and if they were vertical you couldn't tell they were red.

The method to fix this is by using sliders(different part than my sliders, but called the same thing). The insert of the current mold can move on one axis only, say Z to simplify, the slider insert would also move in the Z when entering the mold, but once at the correct Z depth, the parts of the insert could move in both the X and Y axes(expanding to make and contracting to release), allowing the mold to create perfectly vertical faces, no draft angle, and be able to release the part easily. The expense comes from the fact the original insert is 1 piece, whereas the slider insert would at least be 3, most likely more, and you need one for each of the 16 cavities.

I see three outcomes for the top housings:
1) Somehow we find a venture capital group, or run a donate drive, to fix our mistake for us.  This takes possibly years, and is tacitly abandoning them. (The housing GB barely made MOQ, I seriously doubt you can sell that amount again, IMHO.)
2) Ship non-functional top housings. Say "sorry", call it a day.
3) Use the one thing we do have in spades, time, to find a hack to fix them ourselves. Apply this fix yourself to all orders, or let nice, trustworthy users help you.

1) Yep and it would be a pain in the ass as well, I don't want to drag this on.
2) This wouldn't be viable for those who wish to use GMK keycaps, and don't wish to spend the time modifying housings to do so.
3) As explained above, draft is the issue, no way to fix this by hand.
« Last Edit: Sun, 15 July 2018, 00:08:06 by BlindAssassin111 »

Offline fireworm

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #395 on: Sun, 15 July 2018, 00:50:20 »


Ok, so this is an exaggerated pic, right?  Side pic.  Slider (blue) comes down, housing in black has a draft angle, giving it more space to tilt at the top, right?  Thus the wobble, since the point on the housing is a fulcrum, and the lower edge needs to hit 'something' to reduce the wobble.

Likewise, the click leaf (red) is also not set correctly, since in a normal alps housing, the bottom of the housing is vertical, giving the click leaf less space, but now the leaf has more space (due to the draft), right?  My suggestion for fixing the click leaf is to add something on the very bottom (orange box) (e.g., scotch tape), that resets the draft angle to make the click leaf vertical again.

Potentially, to fix the wobble, adding a small piece of tape to the bottom edge of the slider, might also fix issues, but that could cause more trouble with the click leaf / contact leaf...  I dunno.  Technically, if we made the sliders fatter at the bottom, that would reduce the wobble too (right?), but wouldn't be compatible with the SKCM housings (since they'd be too big).  Or make the sliders fatter (with more tape), so they can't wobble...?
« Last Edit: Sun, 15 July 2018, 00:52:26 by fireworm »

Offline euphxenos

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #396 on: Sun, 15 July 2018, 03:06:05 »
So what are the options for those of us who bought these for use on clicky switches?  My only use for these is on clicky Matias switches.

Offline BlindAssassin111

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #397 on: Sun, 15 July 2018, 22:09:19 »
Update:
I was looking at the slider samples again, and for the first time I noticed a mistake the factory made. They didn't add a fillet I had in place on the slider CAD file I sent them, and instead machined it with a sharp corner. This type of issue can't be fixed unless they machine the mold as they took material away that is needed there. The easiest way for them to do this is by just machining the mold halves deeper and then machine the split plane(the part where the two halves meetup) a bit so it brings the dimensions back into spec. This would take way less time than actually redoing the entire thing.

What does this mean? They need to re-machine the mold to add this feature back into the part. Okay but why does that matter? I can technically get my needed changes added onto the part, and not be charged fees as they have no choice but to redo the code needed to machine the mold anyways as if they reused it, the error would come back, so they are forced to redo that work. So I am pushing for this to be done, and will update with new info once I get a response.

With that said, if I can add my changes in without cost, I can try my fix for clicky switches and that is good news.

I am also making changes to the top housing to revert it back to before I added the drafts, so that I can get a quote on what that would actually cost to use the sliding inserts. Given the above info, I can then spend the same money I would have spent to fix the slider, on the housings instead, lowering the needed amount to be raised via other sources.

This is preliminary though, I expect something to be said that may change this, so don't be surprised to hear the above reverted. I just want to keep everyone in the loop of a possible light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak, It just may end up being Chris Rock holding a lantern saying "Gotcha" instead of an exit... :))


So what are the options for those of us who bought these for use on clicky switches?  My only use for these is on clicky Matias switches.

The above info may answer this for you, but Chris Rock...

Offline Albatross

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #398 on: Mon, 16 July 2018, 08:44:54 »
Here's to hoping for the sliders and housings to be altered then. I originally purchased the sliders to use for SKCM blues but I'd be alright I guess using them with linears if clickies are out of sight. Really hoping for the housings to be fixed though as I only want to use the stems with Cherry profile caps...

Offline BlindAssassin111

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Re: [Production] Nexus Alps slider, Nexus Top Housing
« Reply #399 on: Mon, 16 July 2018, 19:28:38 »
Update:
I changed the slider to include a new style click leaf protector, this should hopefully eliminate the double click as the leaf will contact a larger area just like it originally did, and I actually reduced the size of the protector to allow a bit more movement from the leaf to try and change the sound that much less.

200157-0