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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: phinix on Fri, 21 January 2022, 07:24:24
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I always used hot-swap pcbs cause didn't want to solder.
But it is a bit hard to get hotswap pcbs for certain keyboards, so I may need to use solderable one.
What I'm worried about is that once its soldered, I may have isue with stabs.
I don't know why, but even when I lube my stabs, after a while they start to scratch and make that rattling noise, especially on spacebar. Its like lube has slided a bit or something. I always use Super Lube for stabs wires. Maybe I should use that new thingy, white spread, what is it called? BDZ? Or just 205g0?
Maybe I'm doing something wrong when lubing?
Soe once soldered, to take stab sout I would need to de-solder those specific switches. This is what puts me off from using solderable pcbs.
I guess there is no other way to do it?
I got a siringe and filled it with grease and in case its a matter of more lube in stabs, I will be able to add it on mounted ones.
Do you guys have isues with stabs once its all soldered?
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Do you guys have isues with stabs once its all soldered?
I did on the first board I built from scratch.
Since you have boards with hot swaps, why not use some good, known working stabs from one of them or prep and test them in one before putting them in this, that way you know it's going to be fine and installed correctly before you solder (another common issue for people). I use Superlube, but it can be a bit fickle, so yeah, use a hot swap for testing.
Another option you could try is holtites or whatever they're called for those switches (if they will fit). I'm not a fan of them but this seems like a decent use case for them.
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Do you guys have isues with stabs once its all soldered?
I did on the first board I built from scratch.
Since you have boards with hot swaps, why not use some good, known working stabs from one of them or prep and test them in one before putting them in this, that way you know it's going to be fine and installed correctly before you solder (another common issue for people). I use Superlube, but it can be a bit fickle, so yeah, use a hot swap for testing.
Another option you could try is holtites or whatever they're called for those switches (if they will fit). I'm not a fan of them but this seems like a decent use case for them.
Yeah, thing is I don't have any ready good stabs and don't have hotswap board just now.
I'll be doing it from scratch.
What are those holtities? I just googled them - are they those small pipe plugs? Do you stick them in pcb's switch leg holes and solder those, then you can use switches like kinda hot-swap? Is that what it is? :eek:
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What are those holtities? I just googled them - are they those small pipe plugs? Do you stick them in pcb's switch leg holes and solder those, then you can use switches like kinda hot-swap? Is that what it is? :eek:
Yeah, but you will want to research them a bit.
They don't fit all boards and can be fickle to install.
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stabs are always a **** show. They start to suck without warning :-D
Mill-max socket can transform any keyboard in an hot swap keyboard (if the plate allows it). I just bought them for 0.2 eur each (you need two for each switch).
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if you use plate mount stabs and a plate with a full width cutout you can usually just desolder the switch with the offending stabs and tune/lube them up without much trouble
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There are some intelligent designers that allow to remove the stabilizers even if it's pcb mounted. The plate needs to be designed by an intelligent and experienced person.
You can mill-max all the keyboard. Mill-max is cheap (0.35 eur for each switch, you need two sockets for each switch).
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I would need to look around and find out how to do this mill-max thingy. I would only do stabbed keys, just to make sure I can remove them when stabs go dum-dum...
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Well, I ordered few of those millmax sockets. I will work on switches this weekend and when millmax arrive, Iw ill make all mods hotswap, just in case.
Keyboard, switches, films, springs all ready :)
(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33130.0;attach=281974;image)
(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33130.0;attach=281894;image)
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Do you guys test somehow switches before soldering them?
Never had solderable pcb before - does it pick signal when switch is just pushed in, not soldered?
I tested pcb with metal clip, so this one works ok.
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Mill max sockets arrived :)
(https://geekhack.org/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33130.0;attach=282216;image)
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Do you guys test somehow switches before soldering them?
Never had solderable pcb before - does it pick signal when switch is just pushed in, not soldered?
I tested pcb with metal clip, so this one works ok.
can't test the switch before soldering.... you could bend the legs to touch the border, but works only sometimes...
You could try them on an hotswap keyboard though (and then remove them and solder on the other one)
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Do you guys test somehow switches before soldering them?
Never had solderable pcb before - does it pick signal when switch is just pushed in, not soldered?
I tested pcb with metal clip, so this one works ok.
can't test the switch before soldering.... you could bend the legs to touch the border, but works only sometimes...
You could try them on an hotswap keyboard though (and then remove them and solder on the other one)
Yeah, that's what I thought, thanks.
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Do you guys test somehow switches before soldering them?
Never had solderable pcb before - does it pick signal when switch is just pushed in, not soldered?
I tested pcb with metal clip, so this one works ok.
can't test the switch before soldering.... you could bend the legs to touch the border, but works only sometimes...
You could try them on an hotswap keyboard though (and then remove them and solder on the other one)
You could test them with a multimeter if you really felt the need. MX (and clones) just function as momentary switches. At rest the circuit is open, when depressed the circuit is closed. I haven't had any problems just flying by the seat of my pants and soldering whole boards with no testing. I'm also not picky about individual switches though since I almost exclusively use clickies.
You might want to read some topics specifically about soldering keyboards, especially if you're using a plate. I have previously posted my process here. (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=111253.msg3015032#msg3015032) It includes desoldering.
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Do you guys test somehow switches before soldering them?
Never had solderable pcb before - does it pick signal when switch is just pushed in, not soldered?
I tested pcb with metal clip, so this one works ok.
can't test the switch before soldering.... you could bend the legs to touch the border, but works only sometimes...
You could try them on an hotswap keyboard though (and then remove them and solder on the other one)
You could test them with a multimeter if you really felt the need. MX (and clones) just function as momentary switches. At rest the circuit is open, when depressed the circuit is closed. I haven't had any problems just flying by the seat of my pants and soldering whole boards with no testing. I'm also not picky about individual switches though since I almost exclusively use clickies.
You might want to read some topics specifically about soldering keyboards, especially if you're using a plate. I have previously posted my process here. (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=111253.msg3015032#msg3015032) It includes desoldering.
Thanks. That is something I am worried about - I need to look up how to solder whole thing. I was thinking how I need to do it, step by step. Place plate on pcb, stick in few switches on the corners and maybe few in the middle and start soldering like that. I was wondering how the plate reacts, as I believe there will be some lose, so movement margin. How the hell can I be sure that once I solder 4-5 switches around, all other will fit in ok?
First, my primal nightmare - stabilisers - make sure they are lubed ok and feel ok, then start soldering switches.
I will solder those mill max on stabs switches, in case stabs go bad after a while.
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Do you guys test somehow switches before soldering them?
Never had solderable pcb before - does it pick signal when switch is just pushed in, not soldered?
I tested pcb with metal clip, so this one works ok.
can't test the switch before soldering.... you could bend the legs to touch the border, but works only sometimes...
You could try them on an hotswap keyboard though (and then remove them and solder on the other one)
You could test them with a multimeter if you really felt the need. MX (and clones) just function as momentary switches. At rest the circuit is open, when depressed the circuit is closed. I haven't had any problems just flying by the seat of my pants and soldering whole boards with no testing. I'm also not picky about individual switches though since I almost exclusively use clickies.
You might want to read some topics specifically about soldering keyboards, especially if you're using a plate. I have previously posted my process here. (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=111253.msg3015032#msg3015032) It includes desoldering.
Thanks. That is something I am worried about - I need to look up how to solder whole thing. I was thinking how I need to do it, step by step. Place plate on pcb, stick in few switches on the corners and maybe few in the middle and start soldering like that. I was wondering how the plate reacts, as I believe there will be some lose, so movement margin. How the hell can I be sure that once I solder 4-5 switches around, all other will fit in ok?
First, my primal nightmare - stabilisers - make sure they are lubed ok and feel ok, then start soldering switches.
I will solder those mill max on stabs switches, in case stabs go bad after a while.
I find it easiest to snap all of the switches into the plate and then (very carefully) line it up with the PCB, and check to make sure none of the pins are bent before you solder a single switch. I also try to level all of the switches in relation to the PCB as well as I can as the first step in the soldering process: ie, press an area of the plate so that all of the switches there are seated all of the way into the PCB, solder some of them, and then do the same for another cluster of switches until they all seem level before soldering the rest. I go over my entire process in that post. I don't think I missed anything.
I don't even lube stabilizers and prefer Costars anyway, so I have no input on that. Don't really care myself. ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯
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Do you guys test somehow switches before soldering them?
Never had solderable pcb before - does it pick signal when switch is just pushed in, not soldered?
I tested pcb with metal clip, so this one works ok.
can't test the switch before soldering.... you could bend the legs to touch the border, but works only sometimes...
You could try them on an hotswap keyboard though (and then remove them and solder on the other one)
You could test them with a multimeter if you really felt the need. MX (and clones) just function as momentary switches. At rest the circuit is open, when depressed the circuit is closed. I haven't had any problems just flying by the seat of my pants and soldering whole boards with no testing. I'm also not picky about individual switches though since I almost exclusively use clickies.
You might want to read some topics specifically about soldering keyboards, especially if you're using a plate. I have previously posted my process here. (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=111253.msg3015032#msg3015032) It includes desoldering.
Thanks. That is something I am worried about - I need to look up how to solder whole thing. I was thinking how I need to do it, step by step. Place plate on pcb, stick in few switches on the corners and maybe few in the middle and start soldering like that. I was wondering how the plate reacts, as I believe there will be some lose, so movement margin. How the hell can I be sure that once I solder 4-5 switches around, all other will fit in ok?
First, my primal nightmare - stabilisers - make sure they are lubed ok and feel ok, then start soldering switches.
I will solder those mill max on stabs switches, in case stabs go bad after a while.
I find it easiest to snap all of the switches into the plate and then (very carefully) line it up with the PCB, and check to make sure none of the pins are bent before you solder a single switch. I also try to level all of the switches in relation to the PCB as well as I can as the first step in the soldering process: ie, press an area of the plate so that all of the switches there are seated all of the way into the PCB, solder some of them, and then do the same for another cluster of switches until they all seem level before soldering the rest. I go over my entire process in that post. I don't think I missed anything.
I don't even lube stabilizers and prefer Costars anyway, so I have no input on that. Don't really care myself. ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯
Yeah, I read your post there too.
Thanks for advice, I will do same with clusters, like you said. I feel a lot better now:)
I'll let you know how it goes. Tomorrow I'll be lubing all 90 switches.
Sunday - soldering time.
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A bit late as I'm seeing you decided to MillMax the PCB, but for FWIW I've found some switches to just refuse to cooperate with my well being either having tick on one side (U4T) or having something between tick and rattle (Black Inks), while using other switches such as Gateron Yellow (KS8), Akko switches, Tecsee Purple pandas, the stabs were perfect.
So maybe test that theory if you decide to commit to solder in the future, I'll admit this is a fear I also share.
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Today I finally finished building my Frog.
OH MY GOD, I mean... Jeeeezus... this is the best keyboard I have ever built.
Soldering was a breeze. Only getting switches lubed, then sticked in, was a bit time consuming, but the final result is purely amazing!
I decided to use POM plate and soft tads - it made the whole keyboard so soft and bouncy, flex is amazing on it.
I had Frog with alu plate for a while and it was nothing like that.
Now, those mill max sockets - these are tiny little things, soldering those was ok, however I found one difficulty with them - ones mounted, two out of 5 mill maxed switches did not register.
Why? Those sockets were soldered ok, however actual switch contact legs did not touch inner pipes. I was surprised, but look like those wee pipes were too wide for these little legs.
I had to bend them a bit to make sure they will touch the inner wall of those mill max sockets/pipes. So now its all good. I have all soldered switches and hot swap all mods :D
Oh, and lubing those switches - always not pleasant process for me, but it was even worse now as for a first time I was also filming them. Those god damn films are some springy! They fly like crazy if you don't hold them strongly on the switch. My cat had fun all that time, cause he was just sitting and waiting for film to jump away. Its a bit tedious process I have to say. Is it worth it? I dont know, couldn't tell the difference between filmed and not filmed switches. Would I do it again? F*** no.
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Congrats
And yeah, it's all pretty tedious work.
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Congrats
And yeah, it's all pretty tedious work.
Thanks :)
I took few shots during the process just to share.
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
[attachimg=5]
[attachimg=6]
..and final result with grumpy CRP artisan :D
[attachimg=8]
[attachimg=7]
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Congrats
And yeah, it's all pretty tedious work.
Thanks :)
I took few shots during the process just to share.
Looks great, and you took the plunge and learned a new skill. Soldering really shouldn't be as intimidating as it seems, especially with keyboards.
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Those stabs are driving me crazy.
I lubed them using SuperLube. Thing is after few days one of them started rattling a bit. So I added a bit of more lube using syringe.
Why does this happen? I'm worried that at some point I'll make them sluggish by overlubing them.
Should I use Krytox 205 instead?
Do you guys us 205g0 for stabs wires too? How much is too much?
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Those stabs are driving me crazy.
I lubed them using SuperLube. Thing is after few days one of them started rattling a bit. So I added a bit of more lube using syringe.
Why does this happen? I'm worried that at some point I'll make them sluggish by overlubing them.
Should I use Krytox 205 instead?
Do you guys us 205g0 for stabs wires too? How much is too much?
You can lube to death, but if they rattle, they rattle. Buy better stabilizers: durock v2 or c3 equals for example. Or the new stabilizers from gmmk (not tried them yet, reviews seem good though).
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Those stabs are driving me crazy.
I lubed them using SuperLube. Thing is after few days one of them started rattling a bit. So I added a bit of more lube using syringe.
Why does this happen? I'm worried that at some point I'll make them sluggish by overlubing them.
Should I use Krytox 205 instead?
Do you guys us 205g0 for stabs wires too? How much is too much?
You can lube to death, but if they rattle, they rattle. Buy better stabilizers: durock v2 or c3 equals for example. Or the new stabilizers from gmmk (not tried them yet, reviews seem good though).
That's Durock v2 I have.
Maybe they do not rattle as such, but when I touch the cap gently, tap it a bit, it makes noise, but shouldn't.
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Those stabs are driving me crazy.
I lubed them using SuperLube. Thing is after few days one of them started rattling a bit. So I added a bit of more lube using syringe.
Why does this happen? I'm worried that at some point I'll make them sluggish by overlubing them.
Should I use Krytox 205 instead?
Do you guys us 205g0 for stabs wires too? How much is too much?
You can lube to death, but if they rattle, they rattle. Buy better stabilizers: durock v2 or c3 equals for example. Or the new stabilizers from gmmk (not tried them yet, reviews seem good though).
That's Durock v2 I have.
Maybe they do not rattle as such, but when I touch the cap gently, tap it a bit, it makes noise, but shouldn't.
Stabilizers are the weakest aspect of the mechanical keyboard community up to the point people resorted to sticking bandages inside the stabilizer stem.
What switches do you use? I found that sometimes not very set up will work, most of the people put a lot of thought on the stabilizers type and the straightness of the spacebar but completely ignore the switches, which play a major role, even some spacebars can have issues, an OEM spacebar on one of my boards will rattle no matter what for some reason..
Some switches will refuse to cooperate no matter what (Black Inks for example in my experience) while some switches are perfect to me, like the Tecsee Purple Pandas, by the way I use Everglide V1, which afaik are the same as Durock V1, which afaik are exactly the same as the V2 apart for the unnecessary upgrade to the wire clip (that sports an unnecessary price bump).
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Those stabs are driving me crazy.
I lubed them using SuperLube. Thing is after few days one of them started rattling a bit. So I added a bit of more lube using syringe.
Why does this happen? I'm worried that at some point I'll make them sluggish by overlubing them.
Should I use Krytox 205 instead?
Do you guys us 205g0 for stabs wires too? How much is too much?
You can lube to death, but if they rattle, they rattle. Buy better stabilizers: durock v2 or c3 equals for example. Or the new stabilizers from gmmk (not tried them yet, reviews seem good though).
That's Durock v2 I have.
Maybe they do not rattle as such, but when I touch the cap gently, tap it a bit, it makes noise, but shouldn't.
Stabilizers are the weakest aspect of the mechanical keyboard community up to the point people resorted to sticking bandages inside the stabilizer stem.
What switches do you use? I found that sometimes not very set up will work, most of the people put a lot of thought on the stabilizers type and the straightness of the spacebar but completely ignore the switches, which play a major role, even some spacebars can have issues, an OEM spacebar on one of my boards will rattle no matter what for some reason..
Some switches will refuse to cooperate no matter what (Black Inks for example in my experience) while some switches are perfect to me, like the Tecsee Purple Pandas, by the way I use Everglide V1, which afaik are the same as Durock V1, which afaik are exactly the same as the V2 apart for the unnecessary upgrade to the wire clip (that sports an unnecessary price bump).
I use cherry black hyperglides, OG cherry caps.
I lube Durock v2 stabs with SuperLube. What I did next is I used Superlube in syringe to inject more lube under the wire. It helps for a while, then starts to slightly rattle - not wire, but somehow cap makes additional noise when pressed, kinda "cap rattle". Other mods are ok, only space bar makes this noise when gently tapped on sides.
It freaks me out!!!!
It happened to 4 builds I did lately. Same parts, same issue.
This week I'll be building second Frog pcb with Zealios switches, but this time I will use Krytox 205 for lubing wires, not super lube.
Seriously, stabilisers need a proper re-design! Lubing, bending, bandages, films, melee mods bla bla bla... what else?! soon we gonna stick in ham and cheese to make it feel and sound right...