geekhack
geekhack Community => Ergonomics => Topic started by: decker on Sat, 09 January 2016, 04:33:21
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Hi, I'm sure a lot of you are only used to US Qwerty.
You probably found a lot of things that annoy you in the Qwerty layout.
Here is something to help you appreciate or at least put in perspective your situation.
So lets start with a Main part of Azerty-FR ISO-105 PC kb (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@@_c=%23ffc2c2&t=%23000000%0A%23fc0000%3B&=%0A%C2%B2&_c=%23cccccc&t=%23000000%3B&=1%0A%2F&&_c=%23edaf8c&t=%23000000%0A%23fc0000%3B&=2%0A%C3%A9%0A%0A~&_c=%23cccccc&t=%23000000%3B&=3%0A%22%0A%0A%23&_c=%23feffc2&t=%23000000%0A%0A%0A%23fc0000%3B&=4%0A'%0A%0A%7B&_t=%23000000%0A%23fc0000%0A%0A%23fc0000%3B&=5%0A(%0A%0A%5B&_t=%23000000%0A%23fc0000%3B&=6%0A-%0A%0A%7C&_c=%23edaf8c%3B&=7%0A%C3%A8%0A%0A%60&_c=%23c2d3ff&t=%23000000%0A%23fc0000%0A%0A%23fc0000%3B&=8%0A%2F_%0A%0A%5C&_c=%23edaf8c&t=%23000000%0A%23fc0000%3B&=9%0A%C3%A7%0A%0A%5E&_c=%23c2d3ff&t=%23000000%0A%0A%0A%23fc0000%3B&=0%0A%C3%A0%0A%0A%2F@&_c=%23feffc2&t=%23000000%0A%23fc0000%0A%0A%23fc0000%3B&=%C2%B0%0A)%0A%0A%5D&_c=%23c2d3ff&t=%23fc0000%0A%23000000%0A%0A%23000000%3B&=+%0A%2F=%0A%0A%7D&_c=%23cccccc&t=%23000000&a:7&f:8&w:2%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Unicode-BackSpace-DeleteLeft-Big'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%3B&@_w:1.5%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Line-Start-End'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_c=%23edaf8c&t=%23fc0000&a:4&f:3%3B&=A&=Z&_c=%23cccccc&t=%23000000%3B&=E%0A%0A%0A%E2%82%AC&=R&=T&=Y&=U&=I&=O&=P&=%C2%A8%0A%5E&_c=%23ffc2c2&t=%23fc0000%0A%0A%0A%23000000%3B&=%C2%A3%0A$%0A%0A%C2%A4&_x:0.25&c=%23cccccc&t=%23000000&f:8&fa@:3%3B&w:1.25&h:2&w2:1.5&h2:1&x2:-0.25%3B&=Entr%C3%A9e%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%0A%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Return-2'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%3B&@_a:7&f:8&w:1.75%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Unicode-Lock-Closed-1'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_c=%23edaf8c&t=%23fc0000&a:4&f:3%3B&=Q&_c=%23cccccc&t=%23000000%3B&=S&=D&=F&=G&=H&=J&=K&=L&_c=%23edaf8c&t=%23fc0000%3B&=M&_c=%23ffc2c2&t=%23000000%0A%23fc0000%3B&=%25%0A%C3%B9&_t=%23fc0000%0A%23000000%3B&=%C2%B5%0A*%3B&@_c=%23cccccc&t=%23000000&a:7&f:8&w:1.25%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Arrows-Up-Circle-Filled'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_c=%23feffc2&t=%23fc0000&a:4&f:3%3B&=%3E%0A%3C&_c=%23edaf8c%3B&=W&_c=%23cccccc&t=%23000000%3B&=X&=C&=V&=B&=N&_c=%23c2d3ff&t=%23fc0000%0A%23000000%3B&=%3F%0A,&=.%0A%2F%3B&=%2F%2F%0A%2F:&_c=%23ffc2c2%3B&=%C2%A7%0A!&_c=%23cccccc&t=%23000000&a:7&f:8&w:2.75%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Arrows-Up-Circle-Filled'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E%3B&@_f:3&w:1.25%3B&=Ctrl&_f:8&w:1.25%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-logo-windows-7'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_f:3&w:1.25%3B&=Alt&_w:6.25%3B&=&_w:1.25%3B&=Alt%20Gr&_f:8&w:1.25%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-logo-windows-7'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_w:1.25%3B&=%3Ci%20class%2F='kb%20kb-Hamburger-Menu'%3E%3C%2F%2Fi%3E&_f:3&w:1.25%3B&=Ctrl)
1) In pink keys with characters that I rarely use, that are in very easy access positions :
PS if you use them often in code or France please tell me in what context.
² : in a word processing program you would use something else, if you can't well better hope you don't need other values or positions.
$ : I know € didn't exist at the time, but I doubt imports needed to be typed in dollars that bad.
ù : It is used in only one french word : "où", I agree it is common as it means "where", but still !
Shift position :
blank : there is nothing in shifted ², really no idea what to put there ? I don't know, maybe a ³.
£ : same comment as $
µ : most people that I worked with in biology, as that was my major for 5 years in college, don't even know they can get that key for writing 1/1 000 000 of a meter (µm). Those that do, are afraid of compatibility issues. They would writer u instead !
§ : I think it has something to do with paragraphs... what ever.
(http://i.imgur.com/eo81m8r.png)
2) In blue characters that I use a lot and aren't in main position:
Shifted position :
? : I'm surprised that this wasn't favored over other characters!
. : I know French makes longer sentences but still, they have to end at some point.
/ : The standard separator for dates... and now used in web context.
+ : I'd say it is more used than =, but I may be wrong.
Alt Gr position :
\ : The path separator in dos... maybe not relevant at the time, I don't know.
@ : Okay before we didn't have emails, but it still annoys me now.
3) In yellow things that are far apart or hard to remember which is shifted
( and ) : 5 keys between them, not even symmetric fingers, same for [] and worse for {}.
- and _ : people invert them a lot, maybe if they were on the same key they would think more when seeing the key.
< and > : When in a hurry I type >< instead of <>, gets on my nerves.
4) In orange things that seem randomly positioned
é, è and e : not close to each other, maybe the point was to have them slightly off ?
same thing about ç, à and ù.
exchanging some letters : a-q, z-w, m under p... I'd say change none or all but just a few seems random.
5) Just to make things a bit more complete things I think are better in Azerty than on a Qwerty US ANSI-104 board, apart from having access to éèçà^¨ of course.
Main part of Qwerty-US ANSI-104 PC kb (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@@=~%0A%60&_c=%23feffc2&t=%23d43f5a%0A%23000000%3B&=!%0A1&_c=%23cccccc&t=%23000000%3B&=%2F@%0A2&=%23%0A3&=$%0A4&=%25%0A5&=%5E%0A6&=%2F&%0A7&=*%0A8&_c=%23feffc2&t=%23d43f5a%0A%23000000%3B&=(%0A9&=)%0A0&_c=%23cccccc&t=%23000000%3B&=%2F_%0A-&=+%0A%2F=&_w:2%3B&=Backspace%3B&@_w:1.5%3B&=Tab&=Q&=W&=E&=R&=T&=Y&=U&=I&=O&=P&_c=%23feffc2&t=%23d43f5a%3B&=%7B%0A%5B&=%7D%0A%5D&_w:1.5%3B&=%7C%0A%5C%3B&@_c=%23cccccc&t=%23000000&w:1.75%3B&=Caps%20Lock&=A&=S&=D&=F&=G&=H&=J&=K&=L&=%2F:%0A%2F%3B&=%22%0A'&_w:2.25%3B&=Enter%3B&@_w:2.25%3B&=Shift&=Z&=X&=C&=V&=B&=N&=M&_c=%23feffc2&t=%23d43f5a%0A%23000000%3B&=%3C%0A,&=%3E%0A.&=%3F%0A%2F%2F&_c=%23cccccc&t=%23000000&w:2.75%3B&=Shift%3B&@_w:1.25%3B&=Ctrl&_w:1.25%3B&=Win&_w:1.25%3B&=Alt&_a:7&w:6.25%3B&=&_a:4&w:1.25%3B&=Alt&_w:1.25%3B&=Win&_w:1.25%3B&=Menu&_w:1.25%3B&=Ctrl)
! and ? are too far apart.
( and ) are in shifted position, could have been swapped with [ ] and {}.
I prefer the vertical shape of the enter key over the long one, and the \| is over sized for what is on it.
< and > are in positions where more useful things could have been in.
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While a lot of points are correct, especially concerning the dot but remember azerty has a hufe advantage compared to other layouts:
our numrow numbers are on the shift layer, while on ANSI it's on the default layer.
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True but I have a laptop at work, so I don't feel the benefit as much since I lack a num pad.
I'd use the fn numpad of a laptop if I had a matrix keyboard... can't stand staggered numpads !
And some people don't use the num pad because its not in the main part of the keyboard.
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As an English-speaking ANSI Qwerty user, this layout makes me irrationally angry. Was the designer drunk?
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As an English-speaking ANSI Qwerty user, this layout makes me irrationally angry. Was the designer drunk?
One could argue no more drunk than the qwerty designers.
But don't see how one can justify most of the choices as improvements.
For the sake of argument I'm going to go have a drink and change the Qwerty layout and see what happens ! :))
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I don't know how good the Neo 2 layout performs in french, but doesn't look bad at all
http://wiki.neo-layout.org/wiki/Tastaturbelegung
You have different layers and you can type many accents with dead keys like é ê à ô
only Œ seems to be a problem. With the compose key I get this ₠
If you use Linux you easyly can try it
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For the sake of argument I'm going to go have a drink and change the Qwerty layout and see what happens ! :))
Qwerty for French after a drink (http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/##@@_c=%23d8f2db%3B&=%C2%B4%0A%60%0A%0A%C2%BA&_c=%23f2d8d8%3B&=1%0A%2F&%0A%0A%C2%B9&=2%0A%7C%0A%0A%C2%B2&_c=%23d8dcf2%3B&=3%0A%C3%A9%0A%0A%C2%B3&=4%0A%C3%A8%0A%0A%23&_c=%23f2d8d8%3B&=5%0A%3C%0A%0A%C2%AB&=6%0A%3E%0A%0A%C2%BB&_c=%23d8dcf2%3B&=7%0A%C3%A0%0A%0A%7B&=8%0A%C3%A7%0A%0A%7D&_c=%23f2d8d8%3B&=9%0A(%0A%0A%5B&=0%0A)%0A%0A%5D&_c=%23f2f1d8%3B&=%E2%89%88%0A*%0A%0A$&=%2F=%0A+%0A%0A%C2%A3&_c=%23bababa&w:2%3B&=Backspace%3B&@_w:1.5%3B&=Tab&_c=%23cccccc%3B&=Q&=W&=E&=R&=T&=Y&=U&=I&=O&=P&_c=%23d8f2db%3B&=%C2%A8%0A%5E%0A%0A~&_c=%23f2f1d8%3B&=%5C%0A%2F%2F%0A%0A%C2%A4&_w:1.5%3B&=%2F_%0A-%0A%0A%E2%82%AC%3B&@_c=%23bababa&w:1.75%3B&=Caps%20Lock&_c=%23cccccc%3B&=A&=S&=D&=F&=G&=H&=J&=K&=L&_c=%23f2d8d8%3B&=%2F@%0A%2F%3B&=%25%0A%2F:%0A%0A%C2%A7&_c=%23bababa&w:2.25%3B&=Enter%3B&@_w:2.25%3B&=Shift&_c=%23cccccc%3B&=Z&=X&=C&=V&=B&=N&=M&_c=%23f2d8d8%3B&=!%0A,&=%3F%0A.&=%22%0A'&_c=%23bababa&w:2.75%3B&=Shift%3B&@_w:1.25%3B&=Ctrl&_w:1.25%3B&=Win&_w:1.25%3B&=Alt&_c=%23cccccc&a:7&w:6.25%3B&=&_c=%23bababa&a:4&w:1.25%3B&=Alt%20Gr&_w:1.25%3B&=Win&_w:1.25%3B&=Menu&_w:1.25%3B&=Ctrl)
(http://i.imgur.com/LXvaQFt.png)
I don't know how good the Neo 2 layout performs in french, but doesn't look bad at all
http://wiki.neo-layout.org/wiki/Tastaturbelegung (http://wiki.neo-layout.org/wiki/Tastaturbelegung)
You have different layers and you can type many accents with dead keys like é ê à ô
only Œ seems to be a problem. With the compose key I get this ₠
If you use Linux you easyly can try it
If we disregard the letter frequency aspect of 26 main letters the main change to have something effective in French wold be to replace :
üöä by éèà and ß by ç, further more the ´ and ` dead keys would be replaced by ^and ¨.
My main complaint would be the little number of punctuation signs on the main layer...
Bépo is supposed to be the rational french layout
http://bepo.fr/wiki/Accueil (http://bepo.fr/wiki/Accueil)
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I found it interesting that the French government are planning to introduce a new standard layout.
http://www.theverge.com/2016/1/21/10805562/france-change-keyboard-layout-azerty
https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/421lpn/france_wants_a_new_keyboard_to_protect_its/
Actually jealous at the opportunity to throw away a qwerty-derived layout...
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Sounds interesting. Would be also nice in germany. Currently I play with an optimizer to create my own layout
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Hi, from what i've they Will probably keep letter positions. Maybe change around a few symbole and ask for about 5 to 10 symbole or new lettres to be printed on caps and in standard driver.
They will probably keep as much as possible as existing layout not upset confirmed users.
This event made me realize that I find apple azerty better.
I can't dislike everything apple does ! 😊
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Decker, if you're looking for a French QWERTY layout, take a look at the two main Canadian ones. There's the Canadian French, more common on PCs, and the Canadian Multilingual, used on Apple machines.
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Take a look at the Bépo layout. It's basically the ergonomic French layout, equivalent to Dvorak or Neo.
http://bepo.fr/
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Thanks for the replies.
I don't like the fact that the symbols are on the Shift mode in Canadian keyboards (as on almost all keyboards).
Its one of the few things I like about Azerty.
Bépo is nice but there are a few things I don't know if I agree with.
For instance having the ; and : in Shift but a full key for ù and ê...
For me the best keyboard layout would take the statistics of letter and punctuation usage in french (and english),
then would assign keys based on the max usage of french (and english) including puntuation.
I started working on it after looking at the wikipedia page on caracter frequency, but I scraped it because I dind't have punctuation data.
The idea is that for instance x and z are infrequent in both english and french so can be set on far away keys, however h is frequent in english and q in french so they need to be on accessible keys. In a purely english or french keyboard q and h would be put on less accessible keys.
Thanks
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For me the best keyboard layout would take the statistics of letter and punctuation usage in french (and english),
then would assign keys based on the max usage of french (and english) including puntuation.
I started working on it after looking at the wikipedia page on caracter frequency, but I scraped it because I dind't have punctuation data.
Sigh. You need a representative corpus and do analysis especially on bigrams and trigrams in order to account for typing characteristics, such as same-finger ratio, row-jumps or patterns in hand/finger alternation.
The folks behind BÉPO have apparently already done this.
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For me the best keyboard layout would take the statistics of letter and punctuation usage in french (and english),
then would assign keys based on the max usage of french (and english) including puntuation.
I started working on it after looking at the wikipedia page on caracter frequency, but I scraped it because I dind't have punctuation data.
Sigh. You need a representative corpus and do analysis especially on bigrams and trigrams in order to account for typing characteristics, such as same-finger ratio, row-jumps or patterns in hand/finger alternation.
The folks behind BÉPO have apparently already done this.
You are right, its just that I use my keyboard to write English as much as French.
So I would be afraid to use a keyboard optimized for one language be it for English or for French...
However, if letters are rare both in english ad in french I can put them on hard keys.
In any case this is mainly a thought experiment as work/play on several computers and do not plan on going around with a kb.
Furthermore I don't type the standard way, so keys are mybe harder for me to access or vice versa.
- Use pinkies only for shift and not systematically.
- Home position with ring and middle fingers on first row and index on second row.
- Right hand jumps sometimes to the left as far as E when left hand is busy with a long shift.
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Furthermore I don't type the standard way, so keys are mybe harder for me to access or vice versa.
- Use pinkies only for shift and not systematically.
- Home position with ring and middle fingers on first row and index on second row.
- Right hand jumps sometimes to the left as far as E when left hand is busy with a long shift.
If you decide to adopt a new keyboard layout, you could simultaneously learn a new typing style.