XTant - Bringing the IBM XT into the 21st Century: Part 2

[fohat.digs]

If you are re-using the Model F case, and hate those stupid tabs or "ears" that operate the legs, you can simply cut them off.

After you file or grind or whatever, just put a piece of sandpaper on the table and go around and around until the end of the cylinder is smooth enough for you.

The legs are still easily operated by simply pressing them in with your finger.

[berserkfan]

The ears are part of the charm. How dare you commit sacrilege by cutting these off!

oh wait

I'm talking to the man who cut up a model F122 backplate...

[mougrim]

The ears are part of the charm. How dare you commit sacrilege by cutting these off!

oh wait

I'm talking to the man who cut up a model F122 backplate...

He is a blasphemer, right No, "ears" are cool

[Hypersphere]

There are at least a couple of philosophies about refurbishing keyboards. One approach is to restore the keyboard keeping everything as "stock" as possible. Another is to restore the keyboard but to make changes -- usually intended as improvements -- in the appearance, sound, feel, or functionality of the keyboard. If you are in the second camp, you might be inclined to delete the "ears" on an XT or AT keyboard. I have been thinking of doing this myself, and instead of using the built-in legs, I am considering installing "bumpers" on the bottom of the case.

[0100010]

There are at least a couple of philosophies about refurbishing keyboards. One approach is to restore the keyboard keeping everything as "stock" as possible. Another is to restore the keyboard but to make changes -- usually intended as improvements -- in the appearance, sound, feel, or functionality of the keyboard. If you are in the second camp, you might be inclined to delete the "ears" on an XT or AT keyboard. I have been thinking of doing this myself, and instead of using the built-in legs, I am considering installing "bumpers" on the bottom of the case.

Very true.  Like the difference between a collector and a user.  A 'safe queen' or a battle rifle.  Show car, daily driver.

I myself am in the user / battle rifle / daily driver camp.  My 4704 107 has rubber bumpers under it.

[mougrim]

Happy with my AT as it is. Well, with exception of ANSI-mod.

[berserkfan]

Happy with my AT as it is. Well, with exception of ANSI-mod.

Happy that you're even alive. From the news, the body count is mounting back where you used to live, and there seems to be no end now that Putin is even moving regular troops in. I am not envisioning the worst, but I think Ukraine isn't going to be a nice place to live in for quite a long time and the only good thing about having an AT is at least you have something to protect your head when shells come flying in.

[mougrim]

Happy with my AT as it is. Well, with exception of ANSI-mod.

Happy that you're even alive. From the news, the body count is mounting back where you used to live, and there seems to be no end now that Putin is even moving regular troops in. I am not envisioning the worst, but I think Ukraine isn't going to be a nice place to live in for quite a long time and the only good thing about having an AT is at least you have something to protect your head when shells come flying in.

I think not before long ther ain't be any money in Russia to wage wars on So we bidding our time.

By the way... Where are you getting those nice, nice 4704 107 Model F?

They are looking fabulous...

[0100010]

Happy with my AT as it is. Well, with exception of ANSI-mod.

Happy that you're even alive. From the news, the body count is mounting back where you used to live, and there seems to be no end now that Putin is even moving regular troops in. I am not envisioning the worst, but I think Ukraine isn't going to be a nice place to live in for quite a long time and the only good thing about having an AT is at least you have something to protect your head when shells come flying in.

I think not before long ther ain't be any money in Russia to wage wars on So we bidding our time.

By the way... Where are you getting those nice, nice 4704 107 Model F?

They are looking fabulous...

One is available currently in the classifieds : https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=63679.0

[dorkvader]

By the way... Where are you getting those nice, nice 4704 107 Model F?

They are looking fabulous...

One is available currently in the classifieds : https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=63679.0

Yeah but USPS will only mail via GXG to Ukraine, which is $283.50, Priority to any other country in Europe is $83.06. These things weigh 12 lbs boxed.

[mougrim]

By the way... Where are you getting those nice, nice 4704 107 Model F?

They are looking fabulous...

One is available currently in the classifieds : https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=63679.0

Yeah but USPS will only mail via GXG to Ukraine, which is $283.50, Priority to any other country in Europe is $83.06. These things weigh 12 lbs boxed.

I know Got my AT from USA for 50 bucks or so in February, but it was't so heavy...

I guess my best bet is to look for it in Europe

[cinnamonrollz]

I want one of these really badly. Why arent they for sale in some amazing groupbuy? We need this on massdrop!

[fohat.digs]

Why arent they for sale in some amazing groupbuy?

This is a "labor of love" that has been ongoing for a couple of years.

It is a fussy and complex thing, not just ordering "x" number of chunks of plastic blown into a mold.

[berserkfan]

Why arent they for sale in some amazing groupbuy?

This is a "labor of love" that has been ongoing for a couple of years.

It is a fussy and complex thing, not just ordering "x" number of chunks of plastic blown into a mold.

Frankly, better WCass than me! He's doing such an awesome job. But I wonder if I will ever live to see this in matrix format or in split keyboard format. I really dream of having my own 8x8 Model F custom keyboards with bluetooth. Frankly, once I get these, I will never purchase another keyboard or buy another keycap in my life.

[0100010]

Why arent they for sale in some amazing groupbuy?

This is a "labor of love" that has been ongoing for a couple of years.

It is a fussy and complex thing, not just ordering "x" number of chunks of plastic blown into a mold.

Frankly, better WCass than me! He's doing such an awesome job. But I wonder if I will ever live to see this in matrix format or in split keyboard format. I really dream of having my own 8x8 Model F custom keyboards with bluetooth. Frankly, once I get these, I will never purchase another keyboard or buy another keycap in my life.

I think you will be able to get what you want, one day.  1u key only 8x8 matrix would be easy to draw up, comparatively.

[berserkfan]

I think you will be able to get what you want, one day.  1u key only 8x8 matrix would be easy to draw up, comparatively.
[/quote]

The problem is I can't do it myself. Not to mention there are all the complications about the capacitative nature and needing equipment to figure out capacity. And then one has to go through all the hurdles to design and build a casing, get a backplate cut, etc. I'm assuming I have to do it all myself if there are no people interested in it...

[0100010]

There is definitely interest in custom Model Fs, for example : http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/ibm-model-f-62-and-f-107-mod-ideas-t9324.html

The only question is, how many others would want to go in with the same layout as you for the 8x8 matrix (as quantity brings down cost).

[berserkfan]

There is definitely interest in custom Model Fs, for example : http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/ibm-model-f-62-and-f-107-mod-ideas-t9324.html

The only question is, how many others would want to go in with the same layout as you for the 8x8 matrix (as quantity brings down cost).

You've given me an idea. I am too sleepy now and will need time on this, but I think I will try to pitch the idea of a matrix ergodox instead of 8x8 matrix. There are many ergodox fans, and furthermore a matrix will offer closer thumb spaces for smaller hands.

[dorkvader]

I have received an XTant prototype kit in the mail today. I'll be posting updates here as I progress.

Album: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dork_vader/sets/72157650892000845/




Note: will be taking better photos at a later date.

[mougrim]

I have received an XTant prototype kit in the mail today. I'll be posting updates here as I progress.

Album: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dork_vader/sets/72157650892000845/

Note: will be taking better photos at a later date.

We'll be waiting for an upgrade. Looks good...

[dorkvader]

I thought I'd mention this: I will be using a wheelwriter spacebar and "code" key to make a split spacebar for this.

Just wanted to show what was possible.

edit: this requires the spacebar "dummy" barrel on the left, which is not currently included on the plate drawing DXF. I will forego the split spacebar for now and possibly add it later.

Note: I will be using an old IBM 3178 "model C" keyboard to supply any extra barrels and flippies.

[0100010]

Looking forward to seeing another XTant brought to life!

[vivalarevolución]

I have received an XTant prototype kit in the mail today. I'll be posting updates here as I progress.

Album: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dork_vader/sets/72157650892000845/

Show Image

Show Image

Note: will be taking better photos at a later date.

Hey, below those large washers, what is that set of five screws or whatever?  My kit did not include those.

[wcass]

Sorry about that - i ran out of those.
(2) #4-40 x 1/4" flat head machine screw. These (along with two of the weld nuts) are for mounting the switch matrix PCB to the back plate. also, (2) #4-40 x 3/8" flat head machine screw. These (along with weld nuts) are for holding the alignment - barrel frame to back plate.

You should be able to pick these up a a local hardware store.

[CPTBadAss]

I have received an XTant prototype kit in the mail today. I'll be posting updates here as I progress.

Album: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dork_vader/sets/72157650892000845/

Show Image

Show Image

Note: will be taking better photos at a later date.

SQUEEEEEEE. So excited

[Melvang]

I have received an XTant prototype kit in the mail today. I'll be posting updates here as I progress.

Album: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dork_vader/sets/72157650892000845/

Show Image

Show Image

Note: will be taking better photos at a later date.

That is some sexy **** there.

How long until we have a buckling spring ergo dox?

[dorkvader]

I have received an XTant prototype kit in the mail today. I'll be posting updates here as I progress.

Album: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dork_vader/sets/72157650892000845/

Show Image

Show Image

Note: will be taking better photos at a later date.

That is some sexy **** there.

How long until we have a buckling spring ergo dox?

Theoretically possible to make one tomorrow I think the first thing is to get a decent layout down. This means getting readily available keys from unicomp with the added possibility of using "code" keys from wheelwriters (they are convex like an IBM spacebar and shouldn't "bite" your thumb like a SP spacebar) Then, with some changes to the fingers and thumb area (look at the keyboardio as an example) it would fit more people I think. Once that's decided on, we can get PCBs made. I think the ideal method is to get the controller onboard the matrix PCB (ironically one of the downfalls of the XT keyboard: the idea saves a lot of time and money here). With a relatively large order (50+ at least!) you can get them made and soldered with a pick&place machine, then some poor guy can program them all before mailing.

I think the bent over plate-case could work. Have a radiused bend for the pcb area, and some 90 degree bends to make the upper and lower "feet". Cut some angles in it to screw the controller down and it'd look pretty slick.

All of the above is being pioneered by this project. The hope is that we'll work out the bugs and find out what the limitations of the hardware and controller are. This paves the way for more complex projects down the road, and is a necessary "first step" in making a full model F "from scratch". The supply of XTs won't last forever you know and prices have risen significantly since I joined GH.

I am getting a plate (or a few, depending on pricing) made, and I already have a short list of HVAC / metalworking shops nearby that I can check on plate bending. After that, I'll be able to update more frequently.

[Melvang]

I have received an XTant prototype kit in the mail today. I'll be posting updates here as I progress.

Album: https://www.flickr.com/photos/dork_vader/sets/72157650892000845/

Show Image

Show Image

Note: will be taking better photos at a later date.

That is some sexy **** there.

How long until we have a buckling spring ergo dox?

Theoretically possible to make one tomorrow I think the first thing is to get a decent layout down. This means getting readily available keys from unicomp with the added possibility of using "code" keys from wheelwriters (they are convex like an IBM spacebar and shouldn't "bite" your thumb like a SP spacebar) Then, with some changes to the fingers and thumb area (look at the keyboardio as an example) it would fit more people I think. Once that's decided on, we can get PCBs made. I think the ideal method is to get the controller onboard the matrix PCB (ironically one of the downfalls of the XT keyboard: the idea saves a lot of time and money here). With a relatively large order (50+ at least!) you can get them made and soldered with a pick&place machine, then some poor guy can program them all before mailing.

I think the bent over plate-case could work. Have a radiused bend for the pcb area, and some 90 degree bends to make the upper and lower "feet". Cut some angles in it to screw the controller down and it'd look pretty slick.

All of the above is being pioneered by this project. The hope is that we'll work out the bugs and find out what the limitations of the hardware and controller are. This paves the way for more complex projects down the road, and is a necessary "first step" in making a full model F "from scratch". The supply of XTs won't last forever you know and prices have risen significantly since I joined GH.

I am getting a plate (or a few, depending on pricing) made, and I already have a short list of HVAC / metalworking shops nearby that I can check on plate bending. After that, I'll be able to update more frequently.

Now with as sensitive as F style is, wouldn't the bent plate style case present issues with calibration being thrown off based on what type of desk material someone uses?

I know this might be a dumb question, and or one of the things getting tested with this project.  Still a question that popped in my head as I was reading your reply.

[jacobolus]

At some point I kinda want to make a handful of Model F PCBs/Plates with a split layout with each half along the lines of:


Because of the way a curved plate works, I think all the keys have to be in a somewhat strict grid, which makes layouts more closely matching the Ergodox or whatever pretty difficult.

[berserkfan]

I have received an XTant prototype kit in the mail today. I'll be posting updates here as I progress.

Note: will be taking better photos at a later date.

Isn't the lack of a plate a big issue?

Am following the plate thing with some interest.

[vivalarevolución]

I have received an XTant prototype kit in the mail today. I'll be posting updates here as I progress.

Note: will be taking better photos at a later date.

Isn't the lack of a plate a big issue?

Am following the plate thing with some interest.

Wcass included files and the plates can be cut at a local machine shop.

[wcass]

At some point I kinda want to make a handful of Model F PCBs/Plates with a split layout with each half along the lines of:

Show Image

Because of the way a curved plate works, I think all the keys have to be in a somewhat strict grid, which makes layouts more closely matching the Ergodox or whatever pretty difficult.

One possibility to allow angled "thumb keys" is "stamped" plates, but that would require expensive tooling and engineering. Another option would be to go flat.

If you flip a key cap and barrel 180 degrees it would angle the key cap forward instead of back - which would probably be very nice for thumbs. The keyboard design I am working on now will test this out along with some other crazy ideas I have.

[berserkfan]

Because of the way a curved plate works, I think all the keys have to be in a somewhat strict grid, which makes layouts more closely matching the Ergodox or whatever pretty difficult.

One possibility to allow angled "thumb keys" is "stamped" plates, but that would require expensive tooling and engineering. Another option would be to go flat.

If you flip a key cap and barrel 180 degrees it would angle the key cap forward instead of back - which would probably be very nice for thumbs. The keyboard design I am working on now will test this out along with some other crazy ideas I have.
[/quote]

WCass, are you working on a split matrix layout? Maybe 8 columns and 6 rows? That would be awesome.

I think (hehheh, it's a self-interested thought) that before you make a staggered matrix layout you need to try a linear matrix layout first. I would happily buy more than I need just to help meet MOQ!

[0100010]

I thought I'd mention this: I will be using a wheelwriter spacebar and "code" key to make a split spacebar for this.

Just wanted to show what was possible.

edit: this requires the spacebar "dummy" barrel on the left, which is not currently included on the plate drawing DXF. I will forego the split spacebar for now and possibly add it later.

Note: I will be using an old IBM 3178 "model C" keyboard to supply any extra barrels and flippies.

Couldn't we just add a dummy barrel to the DXF, prior to sending it to get cut?  That way you could use the Code key and Wheelwriter spacebar.

[wcass]

Couldn't we just add a dummy barrel to the DXF, prior to sending it to get cut?  That way you could use the Code key and Wheelwriter spacebar.

Sorry, but no. When I designed this I made the bottom row (alpha section) [1.5, 1.25, 1.25, 7, 1.25, 1.25, 1.5].
The second barrel is too far right to use a 1.5 (or 2.75 Code) key as the third cap. When I get home today I will check to see how far the pivot plates are shifted off of the capacitive pads by changing the bottom row to [1.5, 1, 1.5, 7, 1.5, 1, 1.5] (with dummy under space).

[dorkvader]

Now with as sensitive as F style is, wouldn't the bent plate style case present issues with calibration being thrown off based on what type of desk material someone uses?

I know this might be a dumb question, and or one of the things getting tested with this project.  Still a question that popped in my head as I was reading your reply.

This is one of the weaknesses of the capacitive design. A larger issue is protecting it from all the radio waves from your Wifi and cellular networks (and local radio). Fortunately the solution is the same here: ground the plate.

Now this is something I forgot to mention with the "bent plate" style case: it does require a second metal plate. I think the one on teh original XT (that we are re-using here) would work fine.

Couldn't we just add a dummy barrel to the DXF, prior to sending it to get cut?  That way you could use the Code key and Wheelwriter spacebar.

Sorry, but no. When I designed this I made the bottom row (alpha section) [1.5, 1.25, 1.25, 7, 1.25, 1.25, 1.5].
The second barrel is too far right to use a 1.5 (or 2.75 Code) key as the third cap. When I get home today I will check to see how far the pivot plates are shifted off of the capacitive pads by changing the bottom row to [1.5, 1, 1.5, 7, 1.5, 1, 1.5] (with dummy under space).

WCass is usually right but I will take another look at this tomorrow. I think the "code key trick" will only work for a 1.5-7-1.5 spacebar setup. I may solder the controller and give it a shot with a barrel and flip plate to see how far shifted off you can make it before it becomes hard to read. As WCass suggests it may be possible to include this with the current PCB design and just a slightly different plate.

Of course it is entirely possible to make this with a different PCB and plate layout.

Either way I have submitted my CAD drawings and will be reserving my code key for my kishsaver.

I'll check on what the cost would be to get a few plates made: might make it easier for other people to put together their prototype.

[vivalarevolución]

I'll check on what the cost would be to get a few plates made: might make it easier for other people to put together their prototype.

Please do.  I was looking at doing the same thing.  A small bulk order for these plates with one metal shop, and then ship them out.

[mougrim]

I was just looking on this kinda SSK on Unicomp page and I thought how it cold be wonderful if Unicomp released SSK with clearly superior capacitive F internals, produced by wcass

[Melvang]

I was just looking on this kinda SSK on Unicomp page and I thought how it cold be wonderful if Unicomp released SSK with clearly superior capacitive F internals, produced by wcass

Don't mean to burst your bubble but there is zero chance this will happen.

[mougrim]

I was just looking on this kinda SSK on Unicomp page and I thought how it cold be wonderful if Unicomp released SSK with clearly superior capacitive F internals, produced by wcass

Don't mean to burst your bubble but there is zero chance this will happen.

I know, but hell, everyone can dream, right?

[Melvang]

I was just looking on this kinda SSK on Unicomp page and I thought how it cold be wonderful if Unicomp released SSK with clearly superior capacitive F internals, produced by wcass

Don't mean to burst your bubble but there is zero chance this will happen.

I know, but hell, everyone can dream, right?

True, I hear ya there.  Personally I am dreaming of a capacitive F internals Ergo Dox style keyboard.

[0100010]

I was just looking on this kinda SSK on Unicomp page and I thought how it cold be wonderful if Unicomp released SSK with clearly superior capacitive F internals, produced by wcass

Don't mean to burst your bubble but there is zero chance this will happen.

I know, but hell, everyone can dream, right?

There is a thread for this on DT.  Not produced by Unicomp, but basically an extension of the XTant into a full custom Model F.

[0100010]

I was just looking on this kinda SSK on Unicomp page and I thought how it cold be wonderful if Unicomp released SSK with clearly superior capacitive F internals, produced by wcass

Don't mean to burst your bubble but there is zero chance this will happen.

I know, but hell, everyone can dream, right?

True, I hear ya there.  Personally I am dreaming of a capacitive F internals Ergo Dox style keyboard.

You and Gutz both.

[mougrim]

I was just looking on this kinda SSK on Unicomp page and I thought how it cold be wonderful if Unicomp released SSK with clearly superior capacitive F internals, produced by wcass

Don't mean to burst your bubble but there is zero chance this will happen.

I know, but hell, everyone can dream, right?

There is a thread for this on DT.  Not produced by Unicomp, but basically an extension of the XTant into a full custom Model F.

Hmm... Link?

[dorkvader]

I have contacted a place about getting custom XTant plates made. He has quoted $70/ea for a small run of 5. Does anyone else with a prototype kit want one?

[vivalarevolución]

I have contacted a place about getting custom XTant plates made. He has quoted $70/ea for a small run of 5. Does anyone else with a prototype kit want one?

Yea, I do. 

[dorkvader]

I will make an IC then later tonight

[vivalarevolución]

I will make an IC then later tonight

I would check with The Beast about this as well.  Wcass mentioned that he had a plate cut for this project for $30.

[Melvang]

I will make an IC then later tonight

I would check with The Beast about this as well.  Wcass mentioned that he had a plate cut for this project for $30.

The flip side is getting the plates ran through a slip roller.  That is probably doubling the cost itself in its own right.

[dorkvader]

I will make an IC then later tonight

I would check with The Beast about this as well.  Wcass mentioned that he had a plate cut for this project for $30.

The flip side is getting the plates ran through a slip roller.  That is probably doubling the cost itself in its own right.

I checked at some local places with slip rollers and that was pretty much the case.