Thinking about a Model F

[chuckster]

I've tried 60% boards. I tried to love MX and ALPS (and thought I did, until buckling spring). I even thought briefly of building a custom, but at the end of the day, my Model M is simply the most useful, satisfying typing experience I have ever tried.

So now, I'm lusting after a Model F, specifically the AT. I may even let go of everything else if it turns out to be a big improvement over the M. My only problem, of course is getting it converted to work on a modern PC, and getting the layout as close to ANSI standard as possible.

So, a few questions for all of you Model F AT owners out there:

• Is it hard to make the Soarer Converter? Is it a project a beginner could do? If so, is there a good tutorial out there that makes it simple?
• Do you miss the F11 and F12 keys? Are there any programs where you really need them? (I've only ever seen them used in a web browser)
• Do they all have the big enter key? Will my Model M 1391401 keycaps work to remedy this?
• Is the model F really worth the investment for someone with a Model M? Is it really that good.

I only ask because I see stock AT's go for half the price of those with modifications, and I am hoping to save quite a bit by doing these things myself.

[snoopy]

If you once tried F, you won't go back to M. Yes, it's really that good.

Does the F AT really need a converter? I once had one and didn't need a converter. Or do I mix something up?

[fohat.digs]

I think that you will want the Soarer's if you do the "ANSI mods" because it will make them easier to program and permanent. Otherwise, the AT cable is plug and play with a PS/2 adapter.

The Enter key is pretty easy, as these things go. Putting the beast back together is always the hard part.

If you go further with the Alt/space bar mods that wcass pioneered, that is probably quite a bit more difficult.

[nubbinator]

If you once tried F, you won't go back to M. Yes, it's really that good.

Does the F AT really need a converter? I once had one and didn't need a converter. Or do I mix something up?

Model Ms feel like toys compared to Fs.  If you love your M, the F will ruin it for you.  Model F >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Model M

And you're right, you don't need a soarer for the F AT.

[0100010]

IBM AT Images : http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/bm-at-quasi-restoration-lot-of-pictures-t9488.html

Custom F Thread : http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/ibm-model-f-62-and-f-107-mod-ideas-t9324.html

IBM AT ANSI + Spacebar Mod : https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48288.0

[Touch_It]

IBM F goodness.  As far as not being able to go back to M, IDK.  I have a unicomp at work and a F at home.  I enjoy both.  You don't need a soarers converter but it would likely be easier to program if you do an ANSI mod as fohat said.

[Lurch]

If you once tried F, you won't go back to M. Yes, it's really that good.

[hwood34]

All this talk of Fs is really making want to get one as well

[nubbinator]

All this talk of Fs is really making want to get one as well

YAY, EVERYONE'S GETTING F'ED

[hwood34]

All this talk of Fs is really making want to get one as well

YAY, EVERYONE'S GETTING F'ED

If only someone would F me.
(Warning, this will probably get you on some sort of list)

[chuckster]

Okay, so without the need for the converter, this is getting very hard not to go for.

It looks like the only differences in the AT and ANSI layout is the Enter key, small Backspace, Caps and Ctrl swapped (sort of), and it seems to lack a delete key. I think I could try to get used to that, but the converter would definitely be preferred. Even with the mods, how do you map Del? I would like to abolish Caps Lock all together, so that's a good place for it, I suppose. That still leaves F11 and F12 out in the cold though.

[0100010]

AT to ANSI ='s

Big Ass Enter gets split into Enter and |\

|\ and 1x backspace become a 2x Backspace

Technically you should swap Caps Lock and Ctrl, but nothing wrong with their current positions

Esc becomes Num Lock

Num Lock becomes /

Scroll Lock becomes *

Sys Req becomes -

Prt Scr * becomes 2x vertical +


If it was me, I would put in a front function printed number row, and then convert the let side function 10 pack into Esc, Ins, Del, Pg Up, Pg Dn, Home, End and Print Screen, Scroll Lock and Pause/Break.  I would also mod the barrel plate to add two more barrels on the sides of the spacebar for Alt keys.

[E TwentyNine]

Some of us go a little nuttier with the customization:



The F is so easy to open up and change things, I've since moved things around a bit and have F1-10 on the left, just the sixpack and cursor keys on the right, and the num row layered to F1-12.

[fohat.digs]

That still leaves F11 and F12 out in the cold though.

Which function keys do you actually use, anyway?

I never use F6-F9, and F10 in the bottom right corner is the perfect place for a Windows key.

I do use F11, but I would put that in the F9 place and still have 3 spots to do something fun with.

[Touch_It]

I use f1 through f9 and top left for escape

[Chromako]

I think that you will want the Soarer's if you do the "ANSI mods" because it will make them easier to program and permanent. Otherwise, the AT cable is plug and play with a PS/2 adapter.

The Enter key is pretty easy, as these things go. Putting the beast back together is always the hard part.

If you go further with the Alt/space bar mods that wcass pioneered, that is probably quite a bit more difficult.

I'm working on this mod myself- the Enter key and  "|\" is an easy switch. The spacebar splitting is significantly more complicated, but possible. I used barrels and hammers from a Model F XT for the extra two modifiers, but you will have to sand down the keys, or the case, as they aren't a perfect fit.


For the WCass spacebar mod, I cut the plate with a dremel, and removed the corrosion I found with Naval Jelly (which will strip the original paint as well- be warned, but I'd recommend chemical treatment over mechanical grinding rust if your plate has any rust), following up with Rustoleum "stops rust" spray paint and primer after doing the surgery on the plate. The plate doesn't have to be pretty as it'll be mostly hidden anyway.


When you open it up, chances are you will find that the foam sheet is no good after thirty years. 1/16" neoprene closed cell foam from McMaster Carr and some leather punches should let you make a new one.


The Soarer converter is pretty easy even for a beginner like me. The documentation included in the download is excellent. The hardest part is putting it into a fancy case and making it pretty- nothing to do with functionality. Get some female to female jumper cables and order your teensy with the pins already soldered onto it if you don't know how to solder.


I went a bit further and lubricated the key sliders with Teflon (EK's light lube- resulting in a definite improvement in the key feel) and replaced the aged and cracked original keycaps with custom printed new ones from Unicomp (I'd recommend sanding the bottom edges of the keycaps with 600 grit sandpaper as Unicomp's molding is a bit rough if you're a perfectionist). I love how Model M's and F's use interchangeable keycaps for the most part- except instead of wire stabilizers Model M keys use inserts in the secondary barrel- don't forget to order those  inserts from Unicomp.

Now I just need to repaint the case and floss mod the springs.... and maybe integrate the Soarer converter into the keyboard case itself....

[chuckster]

Double.

[chuckster]

AT to ANSI ='s

Big Ass Enter gets split into Enter and |\

|\ and 1x backspace become a 2x Backspace

Technically you should swap Caps Lock and Ctrl, but nothing wrong with their current positions

Esc becomes Num Lock

Num Lock becomes /

Scroll Lock becomes *

Sys Req becomes -

Prt Scr * becomes 2x vertical +


If it was me, I would put in a front function printed number row, and then convert the let side function 10 pack into Esc, Ins, Del, Pg Up, Pg Dn, Home, End and Print Screen, Scroll Lock and Pause/Break.  I would also mod the barrel plate to add two more barrels on the sides of the spacebar for Alt keys.

Show Image

Show Image

Wow, thanks for the breakdown. This will definitely speed things along. I don't know if you meant to, but I still don't see a solution for Del. Adding an Fn layer would be the best option though, and I could put it anywhere.

You guys have been a great help so far, but just a few more questions now:

What are the things on the sides that stick out at the top? I'm not very well-versed in the design and Deskthority is little help.
You mentioned adding barrels beside the spacebar. What does that entail? Is it that easy (assuming you have the parts on hand)?
I have an old Fujitsu that uses DIN-5. I bought a Ps/2 adaptor for it, will that work with the IBM?
Are there any keyboards that compare to the Model F at all? buckling spring seems to be in a class all its own.

I think the Converter is the way to go. I can at least get the board and then look into making one. It actually takes a lot of uncertainty out of the decision with the AT protocol. Is everything (parts list, assembly guide, etc) included in the download? Does it require per-computer setup?

[fohat.digs]

but I still don't see a solution for Del.

Me neither. I use Delete a lot and wonder how I will incorporate it. It will have to go on the numpad somewhere.

What are the things on the sides that stick out at the top?

Those tabs are silly and break off. Cut them off and grind the base flat. It will sit just a bit cock-eyed in its hole, but nobody notices.

I bought a Ps/2 adaptor for it, will that work with the IBM?

It should work fine. It will no longer be needed if you do the Soarer's.

Is everything (parts list, assembly guide, etc) included in the download? Does it require per-computer setup?

Soarer's guide is pretty complete. Once the Teensy is programmed, it will work with any computer or OS.

[POTV]

I have several F-122's and more M's. In my opinion the early Model M's (1986-1988) have a more smooth feel when typing. I would also try one of them, because there are key layout issues with almost all F's...

[berserkfan]

I have several F-122's and more M's. In my opinion the early Model M's (1986-1988) have a more smooth feel when typing. I would also try one of them, because there are key layout issues with almost all F's...

As a guy who found that jailhouse blues are great I will say that it's much nicer to type on jailhouse blues than Model Fs. Too bad I spent too much money importing model Fs to my country...

[nubbinator]

I have several F-122's and more M's. In my opinion the early Model M's (1986-1988) have a more smooth feel when typing. I would also try one of them, because there are key layout issues with almost all F's...

As a guy who found that jailhouse blues are great I will say that it's much nicer to type on jailhouse blues than Model Fs. Too bad I spent too much money importing model Fs to my country...

Jailhouse Blues are meh to me. They're like high actuation point Browns.

[Melvang]

I have several F-122's and more M's. In my opinion the early Model M's (1986-1988) have a more smooth feel when typing. I would also try one of them, because there are key layout issues with almost all F's...

Whats wrong with the F AT when converted to ANSI, which is nothing but a little moving of spings/hammers and adding a couple stabilizers and caps from a doner M.

[JPG]

I can't compare the model F to the M, but the model F is awesome. Been using one at job and one at home for close to a year and I am not changing soon.


The Soarer is easy to build. The first time will take you more time because you will need to learn how to do it, but then you will realize it takes a few minutes to make if you keep it simple, more time for a lovely box.


As for the layout, the F-122 layout is very nice. The AT layout is good, and the XT layout sucks bad. But you can change them. For a first try, you could probably just make a Soarer with a AT or F122 and just have fun with it. Soarer enables you to remap keys and program layers and it's an awesome feature in my opinion.

[CPTBadAss]

I've got a 6019284 and SSK. I love both of them to be honest. I actually just recently switched from the F to M.

I've never made a Soarer but it seems fairly straightforward from the threads I've read.

I don't really miss function keys in general when I'm on 60%.

I think that all the ATs have the big enter key.

Is it worth the investment? I think so. If I could only own one of the two, I'd pick the F. Luckily I don't have to make the decision. I like my SSK because for me, it's a very classic keyboard. And I'm a sucker for TKL. So good layout, great switches, fun cap options, and solid construction are all pros for me. But I think the 6019284 has better construction, a nicer layout, and that cast steel case is just money.

[1391406]

One of the issues I have with the AT F is that there are no dedicated cursor keys, nor does it have the command and navigation cluster above them. I appreciate that the F-122 has keys for both ALT and CTRL already in place from the get-go, as well as an additional 24 Function keys.

[jdcarpe]

One of the issues I have with the AT F is that there are no dedicated cursor keys, nor does it have the command and navigation cluster above them.

Numpad has all that you need, sir.

[fohat.digs]

no dedicated cursor keys

This is the heartbreaker for people who work with spreadsheets.

[JPG]

One of the issues I have with the AT F is that there are no dedicated cursor keys, nor does it have the command and navigation cluster above them. I appreciate that the F-122 has keys for both ALT and CTRL already in place from the get-go, as well as an additional 24 Function keys.

Since I use the Soarer, I remapped the NAV cluster around IJKL on a second layer using the capslock key position to activate it and I enjoy it a lot. Also, the numpad has all of it if you use the numlock. I never use the numpad for numbers since I so rarely use numbers so I leave it as a NAV cluster all the time. I end up with a NAV cluster under a layer and another that needs a little hand movement but no layer activation. All for the best.

[1391406]

One of the issues I have with the AT F is that there are no dedicated cursor keys, nor does it have the command and navigation cluster above them.

Numpad has all that you need, sir.

Except dedicated cursor keys.

[jdcarpe]

One of the issues I have with the AT F is that there are no dedicated cursor keys, nor does it have the command and navigation cluster above them.

Numpad has all that you need, sir.

Except dedicated cursor keys.

8 4 2 6

[1391406]

One of the issues I have with the AT F is that there are no dedicated cursor keys, nor does it have the command and navigation cluster above them. I appreciate that the F-122 has keys for both ALT and CTRL already in place from the get-go, as well as an additional 24 Function keys.

Since I use the Soarer, I remapped the NAV cluster around IJKL on a second layer using the capslock key position to activate it and I enjoy it a lot. Also, the numpad has all of it if you use the numlock. I never use the numpad for numbers since I so rarely use numbers so I leave it as a NAV cluster all the time. I end up with a NAV cluster under a layer and another that needs a little hand movement but no layer activation. All for the best.

I use both Numpad and cursor keys quite a bit, so activating one to the exclusion of the other is a deal breaker for me.

[JPG]

One of the issues I have with the AT F is that there are no dedicated cursor keys, nor does it have the command and navigation cluster above them. I appreciate that the F-122 has keys for both ALT and CTRL already in place from the get-go, as well as an additional 24 Function keys.

Since I use the Soarer, I remapped the NAV cluster around IJKL on a second layer using the capslock key position to activate it and I enjoy it a lot. Also, the numpad has all of it if you use the numlock. I never use the numpad for numbers since I so rarely use numbers so I leave it as a NAV cluster all the time. I end up with a NAV cluster under a layer and another that needs a little hand movement but no layer activation. All for the best.

I use both Numpad and cursor keys quite a bit, so activating one to the exclusion of the other is a deal breaker for me.

It can be. That why they made the F122!

[1391406]

One of the issues I have with the AT F is that there are no dedicated cursor keys, nor does it have the command and navigation cluster above them. I appreciate that the F-122 has keys for both ALT and CTRL already in place from the get-go, as well as an additional 24 Function keys.

Since I use the Soarer, I remapped the NAV cluster around IJKL on a second layer using the capslock key position to activate it and I enjoy it a lot. Also, the numpad has all of it if you use the numlock. I never use the numpad for numbers since I so rarely use numbers so I leave it as a NAV cluster all the time. I end up with a NAV cluster under a layer and another that needs a little hand movement but no layer activation. All for the best.

I use both Numpad and cursor keys quite a bit, so activating one to the exclusion of the other is a deal breaker for me.

It can be. That why they made the F122!

That's why I use an F-122 rather than an AT F, however I was referring to the AT F not Model F's in general.

[Melvang]

One of the issues I have with the AT F is that there are no dedicated cursor keys, nor does it have the command and navigation cluster above them. I appreciate that the F-122 has keys for both ALT and CTRL already in place from the get-go, as well as an additional 24 Function keys.

Since I use the Soarer, I remapped the NAV cluster around IJKL on a second layer using the capslock key position to activate it and I enjoy it a lot. Also, the numpad has all of it if you use the numlock. I never use the numpad for numbers since I so rarely use numbers so I leave it as a NAV cluster all the time. I end up with a NAV cluster under a layer and another that needs a little hand movement but no layer activation. All for the best.

I use both Numpad and cursor keys quite a bit, so activating one to the exclusion of the other is a deal breaker for me.

http://tinyurl.com/ow46jc5



Problem solved, the + in the numpad area will also be enter on function layer.

[iMav]

The Model F's are pure awesomeness.

I actually set mine up to mimic (as close as possible) the Type 5 layout.  Absolutely loved it.

For the past several years now, however, I have settled on my Kinesis Advantage.  love, Love, LOVE it!

[1391406]

One of the issues I have with the AT F is that there are no dedicated cursor keys, nor does it have the command and navigation cluster above them. I appreciate that the F-122 has keys for both ALT and CTRL already in place from the get-go, as well as an additional 24 Function keys.

Since I use the Soarer, I remapped the NAV cluster around IJKL on a second layer using the capslock key position to activate it and I enjoy it a lot. Also, the numpad has all of it if you use the numlock. I never use the numpad for numbers since I so rarely use numbers so I leave it as a NAV cluster all the time. I end up with a NAV cluster under a layer and another that needs a little hand movement but no layer activation. All for the best.

I use both Numpad and cursor keys quite a bit, so activating one to the exclusion of the other is a deal breaker for me.

http://tinyurl.com/ow46jc5

(Attachment Link)

Problem solved, the + in the numpad area will also be enter on function layer.

I'm not crazy about the idea of learning a new numpad configuration, but that's me. After using an F-122 for close to a year now, I definitely haven't missed using my AT F.

[Hypersphere]

Although the AT is a great board, I find the sound and feel of the IBM XT and IBM F122 to be superior to that of the IBM AT. The XT can be plug and play using the $56 Hagstrom converter, or you can install a Teensy or equivalent and Soarer's converter. However, the XT layout scares some people away. The F122 has a great starting layout for converting to ANSI, but you will need to do electronic conversion.

Although I prefer the sound and feel of IBM Model F switches, I love the layout and appearance of the IBM Model M SSK. Therefore, while I have some Model F keyboards, I keep the SSK in my rotation. If there were a Model F SSK, it would be just about the perfect board!

[1391406]

Although the AT is a great board, I find the sound and feel of the IBM XT and IBM F122 to be superior to that of the IBM AT. The XT can be plug and play using the $56 Hagstrom converter, or you can install a Teensy or equivalent and Soarer's converter. However, the XT layout scares some people away. The F122 has a great starting layout for converting to ANSI, but you will need to do electronic conversion.

Although I prefer the sound and feel of IBM Model F switches, I love the layout and appearance of the IBM Model M SSK. Therefore, while I have some Model F keyboards, I keep the SSK in my rotation. If there were a Model F SSK, it would be just about the perfect board!

There's the Model F Unsaver, which is pretty close.

[jdcarpe]

There's the Model F Unsaver, which is pretty close.

But for which sellers want outrageous money.

[chuckster]

I would actually prefer a F-122 for the extra keys and therefore greater functionality (It's not like you're looking at Model F's to save space, after all), but they seem harder to find, and I would require a converter (right?), so it would be harder to try it our before a big commitment.

I am still in the process of getting a couple of my current keyboards ready for sale, so hopefully a good F122 comes up online in the next month or so.

[0100010]

F107 FTW!

[Touch_It]

Mmmmmmm 107

[1391406]

I would actually prefer a F-122 for the extra keys and therefore greater functionality (It's not like you're looking at Model F's to save space, after all), but they seem harder to find, and I would require a converter (right?), so it would be harder to try it our before a big commitment.

I am still in the process of getting a couple of my current keyboards ready for sale, so hopefully a good F122 comes up online in the next month or so.

In my opinion, F-122's are absolutely worth it. The progression for me was IBM Model M > Model F XT > Model F AT > Model F 122. The truth is, I like the F-122 so much I bought two extras as backups. You're right, they're not nearly as common as Model M's and yes, they require a converter, however as far as converters go, there is a really nice pre-built F-122 converter that's sold on eBay for roughly $30. I would've bought one had they been available when I originally purchased my F-122. Model F 122's are a lot more common now than they used to be though, so keep an eye out.

[Heliosphere]

I got both at about the same time and I can agree that F > M. F is more pleasant to type on. The non-modern layout is a drawback.

[1391406]

I got both at about the same time and I can agree that F > M. F is more pleasant to type on. The non-modern layout is a drawback.

AT, XT, or 122? Have you ANSI modded yours?

[Heliosphere]

I got both at about the same time and I can agree that F > M. F is more pleasant to type on. The non-modern layout is a drawback.

AT, XT, or 122? Have you ANSI modded yours?

AT. I don't know how to go about doing an ANSI mod but it sounds like an interesting project. I just don't have many tools. I've seen the XT ANSI mod and it looks neat.

[Melvang]

I got both at about the same time and I can agree that F > M. F is more pleasant to type on. The non-modern layout is a drawback.

AT, XT, or 122? Have you ANSI modded yours?

AT. I don't know how to go about doing an ANSI mod but it sounds like an interesting project. I just don't have many tools. I've seen the XT ANSI mod and it looks neat.

For the AT mod, all it takes is swapping 3 caps with an M, and either soarer converter or xwhatsit controller and adding a couple stabilizer inserts from an M as well.  I have done the soarer on my XT and that was pertty easy but no physical layout changes.  For my AT I did an ANSI mod but I am not changing the space bar and I am removing the two unit keys in the numpad area and replacing with single unit caps.  The AT is getting an xwhatsit because I am curious on the GUI tool for it.

[1391406]

The AT ANSI mod is an improvement. I'd want the space bar mod, but that's me.