Model M Rivet Replacement

[jpc]

I began a bolt mod wiki HOWTO

It is ripster's original recipe, plus it details specific mistakes and how to avoid them or remedy them. I made all these mistakes over the course of bolt modding five boards, so the next guy doesn't have to.

It's a wiki so everyone can add wisdom in the forms of Do's and Do Not's.

[bigpook]

I use a small scratch-all to set an indentation for the bit.

[jpc]

I use a small scratch-all to set an indentation for the bit.

What's a scratch-all?

Hmmm, setting an indentation on a sanded-flat stud top? That's WAY too easy. It removes all element of manual-dexterity-meets-entropy from the process! When I was a lad, bolt modding built character...

Seriously is there a pic of a scratch all to edit into the wiki?

[jpc]

I got mushroom heads and anvil heads on all five boards. For the first board, the chisel was brand new, and for the most recent (today) I sharpened it pretty good.

My best guess is that the rivet head is melted in place, and sometimes it partly melts into the opening in the backplate. So even a perfectly straight horizontal cut can leave an anvil head.

But that doesn't explain why you aren't seeing them also. Who the hell knows?

[jpc]

@ripster - there's now language on the wiki about how if you chisel well enough, the prep stage is not needed as much.

@bigpook - there's a description of the scratch-awl technique on the wiki. Thanks!

[bigpook]

My bad, it is a scratch awl.
awls

[J888www]

Show Image

That's what I would call dedication (to his M), as that tool is connected to to a larger part (not portable), just imagine entering the dentist surgery room to find SKCheng drill his M.

[Daniel Beaver]

I'm fed up with this mod - I've ruined another Silver label Model M. I just find it impossible to drill those holes straight, and my drill bit ends up destroying the base where the hammers sit. I don't know how you guys do it.

[jpc]

impossible to drill those holes straight.

Did you try sanding the tops of the studs flat before drilling? That's what has been working for me.

Ripster gets the stud tops to be perfectly flat with a very sharp chisel. I haven't been able to do that, though I haven't tried sharpening it with the same Japanese water stones that he uses.

Regarding the trashed barrel plates. You can use barrel plates out of worthless rubber dome Model Ms, they work with buckling springs too. I've done it. Or get these barrel plates? Heck Unicomp might even sell you new ones. The bolt pattern on modern Customizers matches the oldest Model Ms. You have some options for resuscitating those boards.

[jpc]

BTW Ripster I can confirm that my chisel is not that sharp. About 20% of its cutting edge is cratered, something took a bite out of it, and now it's gnarled. Might as well use a baseball bat to knock the rivets off.

A knife sharpener is not going to fix that, I'll need a stone from somewhere.

[jpc]

Heh I've met PC slot covers that might be sharp enough

[MissileMike]

One of you pro bolt-modders should establish a service and do boltmods for a flat fee.  I'd be an interested customer for sure.

[bigpook]

The pc slot cover does work, but I did use a new chisel the next time out. The chisel does a much better job of cleanly removing the plastic.

With the tops nice an flat I used a scratch awl to set the bit. The small indentation is all you need for the bit to drill true. Patience and being relaxed is key; there are so many holes to drill that it quickly gets tedious. The plastic is old and needs to be handled carefully too. It wouldn't take much to crack it.

[jpc]

Do we know what Unicomp's $30 refurbishing service consists of?

They might redo the rivets. Plastic rivets aren't bad. They can last. My 1391401 from 1987 had all but 3 or 4 rivets. It felt great before and after its bolt mod. The only reason for modding it was to get some pictures.

[jpc]

One of you pro bolt-modders should establish a service and do boltmods for a flat fee.  I'd be an interested customer for sure.

Woah this is starting to feel like work now. My pulse just quickened.

This is my work. Me: "Look, after stumbling for a while, I can now succeed at task X, sometimes, and slowly!"  My 500 new friends: "ZOMG can you help me please!?"

Can't ever admit you know anything there.

Now if I could charge them I'd be in business baby.

[jpc]

That's simple.  They reach in the parts box, pull out a main assembly, and pop it into your case I assume reusing your controller.  Not sure about the keys.

That's a good deal then.

AFAICT there are three things that wear on an M. Keys, springs, and rivets. The bolt mod addresses one; the Unicomp fix addresses at least two.

[Daniel Beaver]

Got it working, finally. I drilled the holes while the membranes were inside, and some junk jammed up the hammers. So yeah... silver label Model M going up soon on the market place. Works really well.

Still and aggravating mod, though.

[jpc]

I'm thinking about how to reduce pinging sounds in a bolt-modded M.

Would this work?
 * Replace the 8mm bolts with 10mm bolts
 * Place tiny rubber washers between the backplate and the nut

McMaster Carr doesn't sell rubber washers small enough. They sell silicone rubber tubing with an internal diameter of 2mm. You could slice that into washers.

HA! Lego pneumatic tubing can also be sliced into rubber washers that fit closely. Then you can have a Model M built out of Legos.

[jpc]

I'll try flossing.

I thought it was the backplate making noise. It could be the springs. Flossing will find out.

[kishy]

It's come to my attention that an eBay seller has been describing this as "Kishy's bolt mod" and additionally, suggesting that cosmetic-only epoxy repairs are superior in effectiveness and longevity.

I'd like to go on the record saying that I would be very happy to be able to take credit for this mod, but I had nothing to do with it. Furthermore, in my humble opinion (based on examining objective facts and my own epoxied-by-that-seller keyboard), the epoxy treatment is purely cosmetic in nature and risks permanent membrane damage during the inevitable bolt mod (during the disassembly for which, the epoxy-glued membrane will tear). It is, therefore, my opinion that the bolt mod - even a partial one not involving replacement of all rivets - is superior in effectiveness and longevity and any type of epoxy rivet gluing will be a detriment to the life (and possibly performance) of the keyboard.

[kinkng]

If I have a model M that is only missing 5-7 rivets, can I just do the bolt mod without stripping everything apart? Can I just drill the holes in place and not damage the membranes?

[kinkng]

Ripster,

You mean the stud intact rather than the bolt? I guess I need to drill in the center of the stud and go all the way thru so that no shavings can get into the membrame (shavings should be contained within the hole that I created by drilling thru the stud).

[crowstar]

Is this a difficult mod? I mean I only have 1 ibm model m, and I REALLY don't want to muck it up, but at the same time, this mod looks great.

[crowstar]

Can you use M2.5 machine screws?
Because M2 are really hard to come by in the uk.
Are there ANY alternatives

[kidchunks]

Just wondering, is it possible to clean the rubber mat without it damaging?

[Soarer]

Because M2 are really hard to come by in the uk.

http://www.westfieldfasteners.co.uk/A2_ScrewBolt_PhilRaPan_M2.html

[crowstar]

ok.
After doing this only 1/4 of the keys work.
PLEASE HELP!

[crowstar]

worked FINE. All keys.
Basically the whole number row buckles, but feels loose and doesn't actually input ANYTHING.

[crowstar]

Check to make sure that there isn't some excess plastic "crud" on the rivets that prevent you from tightening up.

Do all bolts have about two threads exposed?

I think that is the problem, i forgot that step (fail). So I will do THAT!
(btw that thread on the 'deskthority' was just to get my post count to ten, I DIDN'T MEAN IT OFFICER!!?!?!)

[crowstar]

ok, pressing g and h results in F4? wtf is happening!?!?

[crowstar]

Did you follow the instructions for cleaning the membrane and making sure it was dust free?

mine is stuck together with some kind of glue. Kind of odd, but now ONLY the center keys work and the f4 f5 and f6 keys.

Also the connector is quite scratched up, but it has worked before so ?

[applescript]

I think I am cheaper. I used a blank PCI slot as the chisel which is less than ideal.
I had to cut and sand down the plastic detritus that was left over, which isn't so hard, just takes more time.

I used the staple remover at the end of a stapler.

[kidchunks]

Well I've finished up another bolt mod but have a little issue with the space bar. It seems to register randomly which can only lead to something wrong with the rubber mat as I tested it without it and pressing the membrane worked without issue. Anyone know if the unicomp uses the same rubber mat? If not, I'll have to wait for a broken model m on ebay and use it for parts.

[kidchunks]

Registers without you pressing it?

Sounds like a plastic sliver snuck in to me.  The rubber mats AFAIK are identical.  At least my Boscom felt like my IBMs.

I'll double check the mat again, its in pretty bad shape (water damage most likely) so it has some bubbles.

Strange, acfrazier told me chuck had no idea what he was talking about he asked for me. I guess unicomp has a different name for the mats or doesn't sell them separately.

[kidchunks]

Chuck is a short timer now.  Probably can't wait to get out the door and go shoot something in the Kentucky woods.

Like a Geekhacker.

Yea thats what I hear, guess I'll have to call up unicomp and see what I can do about getting that mat. Hopefully I get someone who was as helpful as he was.

[kidchunks]

Aw just read what I wrote earlier and forgot to include "when I press the space bar" long day at work -_-.

Anyways let me rephrase it!

When I press the space bar, sometimes I get a single fire or no fire, other times i get multiple fires with a single press.  I'm kind of puzzled as I tried changing the hammer with no success. The membrane seems to be fine (pressed it with my finger and it registers).

[jpc]

kidchunks: That could be debris between the membranes or under the hammer.
The fix can be as simple as standing the keyboard on its edge so that the membranes are vertical, and pressing the key several times. Also you could try popping the key cap and blowing into the barrel, that sometimes moves debris that's under the hammer.

[kidchunks]

Like I said earlier..........

Anybody read my posts around here.....?

Show Image

 
Chill pill rip..

Anyways, I tried the methods suggested and still no dice. I'll keep messing with it.

[NeeGo]

Once the old rivets come off, is it as good as trash? I ask because I need to replace a spring/foot assembly and to do that I need to take apart the inner components of the keyboard, but I'm not ready to do the Nut-Bolt mod to close the keyboard up.

[fohat.digs]

Thanks, guys, I have learned a lot from this forum. After wandering in the wilderness of rubber domes for more than a decade, I have come back into the Model M fold.

I have bought a half-dozen on ebay in the past year and kept the best 3. I did a bolt mod on a July 1987 white label according to Sandy's and Ripster's suggestions, and it went pretty well. The resulting difference is not as great as I expected, and there were some difficulties that were hard to overcome such as nuts stripping (possibly/probably due to cross-threading but how do you know?) and so very little adjustment room between too tight and the nut just falling off.

Drilling true was hard even with a sharp new bit, I really want to find a drill press before I try to do it again. And I shaved the anvil caps of the residual posts with an upward motion with an exacto knife, I doubt there is a better or easier way. Large 50-year-old hands and eyes make these tiny tasks much harder. The plastic is softer and more flexible than I might have expected, and I would love to slow down the drill even more.

Here is my actual question:

Since I want an absolutely top-shelf specimen of the great Model M, I have acquired a beautiful 1986 model 1390131 in great condition throughout. I used it for a while and it feels great but is extremely "pingy" sounding and loud. I assumed that was from looseness and vibrations that a bolt mod would rectify, but this morning I opened it up and found that the plastic rivets are in perfect condition. Every single one of them is tight and secure.

"If it ain't broke don't fix it" is a rule I try to observe, so I have little desire to do major surgery here unless the prospect of major improvement is there.

Ripster, you da man, according to yourself. Would I be a fool to mess with this gem, or could I really improve it?

Anybody else have an opinion or comment?

Thanks!
Harry

[fohat.digs]

Thanks. I happen to have been in the deck business for many years and the screw issue is always huge. Nothing holds like surface screws with large heads but that is exactly what customers don't want. Pre-drilling works well but is a huge pain. Those fasteners with countersunk holes with plugs have worked well for us but there is no perfect solution for attaching materials that expand and contract from burning sun to winter ice. Stainless steel is good-looking but more problematic. I know a lot of engineers and carpenters that prefer softer steels because they are so much more forgiving. Cellular PVC is without doubt the optimum decking material in my opinion, but the most expensive.

I bought my screws from McCarr and although I attempted to order all plain steel, I seem to have gotten a mix with galvanized tapping screws and nuts that are black. I can understand how tiny the threads are, and under pressure when trying to hold several layers to the inside of a curved surface, the problem usually happened in the interior rows. Since I used washers, very few threads protruded out of the nuts at all, but I was trying to keep the touch as light as possible.

In one case, I tightened a nut pretty hard and the nearest key would try to stick in the down position until I loosened it. But maybe I should give some or most of them another half turn for good measure.

All-in-all, the sound of this 1390131 is a lot like the sound of my old 83-key Model F, if the feel is a little less precise. Since I have the tiny hardware, I will keep it on hand but leave well enough alone for now. The touch of this 1390131 is very nice, I suppose that it is the sound - high, tinny, pingy, with a good deal of "sproing" that surprised me.

Thanks for the help. Harry

[ch_123]

All-in-all, the sound of this 1390131 is a lot like the sound of my old 83-key Model F, if the feel is a little less precise. Since I have the tiny hardware, I will keep it on hand but leave well enough alone for now. The touch of this 1390131 is very nice, I suppose that it is the sound - high, tinny, pingy, with a good deal of "sproing" that surprised me.

Thanks for the help. Harry

The older Model Ms have a backplate made out of a different metal to the later ones. It looks quite similar to the stuff the Model F backplates were made out of.

[fohat.digs]

I have bought and sometimes resold about half a dozen Ms, one from almost each year between 1986 and 1993, along with a couple of Fs from 1987. This Sept 1986 1390131 M has the heavier, shiny almost iridescent yellowish tinted backplate like the Fs had, the other older Ms had plates that were dark dull uniform gray and I never knew if that was intent or tarnish. I did not polish them because I wanted to leave the inside label, even when I cut a couple of holes on the bolt mod I did to the 1988. The ones from the 1990s looked fresher and cleaner but maybe they had a clear coat or something.

The resounding ringing of this one is really surprising to me. After only a few days I am growing to like it, but it is very noticeable. My wife hates wind chimes so I am just waiting for her comment on this too.

[fohat.digs]

To ask and answer several questions -

I have owned several Model Ms and perhaps one of the best of the original ones was a white label 1991 (by coincidence the first one I bought, at $45 including shipping), and then I bought a half-dozen or so more and cleaned, adjusted, and re-sold most of them on ebay for approximately what I paid for them. This left me with 3 truly top-shelf specimens to work with.

I have bolt-modded one keyboard, a 1988 model 1391401 that was excellent before, and only missing a half dozen or so rivets (10%-15% of them?) randomly spaced but more toward the middle. The first time is always a prototype, but I think that I did pretty well considering that I did it without a drill press, which seems essential for real quality. I was surprised that the ultimate difference was rather small and very subtle, considering the number of hours I invested, but I am not really disappointed. I can understand that this process could yield significant benefits in other circumstances.

This inquiry is about upgrading from the 9.3 level to the 9.7 level.

I once owned a 71xxxxx Model M with rubber domes and I promptly re-sold it and was delighted to get $20 for it. If I get another one for cheap, can I salvage interior parts that interchange, such as the "barrel plate" or whatever you call the large black or beige plastic substrate with the "smokestack" looking appendages for the springs, with an earlier 1391401  model? I know that keycaps and cords are interchangeable, and this would be yet another reason to stay in the market for mid-1990s cheapies.

My previous inquiry was about what to do with this immaculate 1390131 with a complete set of intact rivets - I have decided to stay hands-off, and not mess with it until a problem emerges. In the meantime, I am curious to tinker if the proper pieces present themselves to me.

ps - as a side note, when I log in to geekhack, I always say "remember me" but this site makes me start over from scratch every time. Is that my fault or is somebody working on it? thanks, Harry

[kywirelessguy]

I just wanted to give a couple tips for how my company has dealt with bolt modding ibm buckling spring keyboards for the past 20+ years. Sorry if I am repeating anything already mentioned, but I didn't read all 21 pages of this thread.

So first the chisel. We use an exacto knife with a wood chisel blade. This can save you the headache of sharpening your chisel. When the blade gets dull or eaten up you just replace it. We also do two runs with the chisel. The first run is to remove the metal backing. Then we also do a chisel run on the back of the plastic only to smooth out the rivets before being drilled. Sanding also works as others have mentioned. I think in recent years we have moved to a sander. It's slower, but gives more consistently flat rivets (if you don't angle the chisel right you can dig into the plastic too deep).

The second thing I wanted to recommend is a soldering iron with a fairly sharp tip. You can start a divot with the soldering iron which makes drilling a little more consistent as your drill bit isn't going to be sliding all over the place. We use it more for a repair tool when we drill a bad hole, but for those of you who are only doing one keyboard at a time and can't afford to just start over with a different keyboard then it might be worth the effort to create a divot in each rivet so there is less chance of your drill bit going wherever it wants. Keep in mind melting plastic creates toxic fumes so make sure you are in a well ventilated area. Also keep in mind melting the plastic too much will cause it to bubble up around the soldering iron tip and it will need sanded/chiseled flat again.

[fohat.digs]

Let me ask a question that may be obvious, and has been partially, but not completely, answered here.

Are "most" Model M parts interchangeable?

There are at least a dozen mentions of taking parts from later models to replace broken pieces, all the way up to using a barrel plate from a "71..." rubber dome model to fix a 1980s 1391401 bolt-mod screwup.

With one successful bolt mod under my belt (thanks again, guys!) and 3 less-than perfect Model Ms of various ages and denominations in the garage now, I want to mix-and-match a really, really nice bolt-mod M. I don't care whether it is a bastard or a Frankenstein, I just need it to feel good and be reliable. I have a nice solid 1988 plate for my base. Is there a consensus on whether things like "Enter" keys are better with the earlier wire stabilizers or later hole peg inserts?

My personal experience, mostly with 1391401s, is that the plate got thinner and they lost the wire stabilizers on the "Enter" and a few other keys about 1989, the white-label-to-blue-label transition changed the keycap style slightly around 1992, eventually to one-color caps, and with the "42..." series and Lexmark the cord got attached and the plate got even lighter and maybe even went from steel to aluminum, I don't know. The 2 Unicomps from 2001 I had were lighter and pingier with single-piece keys.

The short question and answer is: Can I pretty much mix anything that fits?

And the barrel plate seems to be the most fragile bottleneck in the process, does age or color or manufacturer make any difference there, or should I just make sure that it is not broken?

Last, I usually avoid lubricants and Armor-all type products in favor of thorough cleaning and drying. Any suggestions on that? A good lubricant that would not cause deterioration a decade later would be something to consider.

thanks again so much for your help!

[fohat.digs]

I really need to say thank you to Kentucky Wireless Guy.

Those 2 tips - the exacto blades and starting holes with a soldering iron - are magnificent!

Before my first bolt mod I looked for those blades, but went to a chisel when I could not find them quickly. Wrong. Super-sharp disposable blades are the only way to go. I have not even sanded (emery boards from my wife's nail kit are far better than sandpaper, anyway) the last 2 bolt mods at all. Cutting off the rivets wrecks the blades on the metal burrs, I think you can reasonably expect to do 2 each with 2 blades, saving the 2nd for the fine plastic-only work after the separation phase.

The soldering iron works far better than a scratch awl. Somehow I still don't think I have found a REALLY sharp 1/16" bit, and even the slowest setting on my Dremel is too fast.

Oh well, just keep plugging away. Thanks again, guy.

[kywirelessguy]

I'm glad I was able to help.

We actually use super glue on barrel plates if they are cracked. It's not ideal, but the earlier model wheelwriters are getting harder to find.

Here's a pic of the tools we use for disassembly. You'll notice our exacto has gotten pretty worn down from the repeated hammering.
[ Guests cannot view attachments ] 25471[/ATTACH]

Here's our keyboard tech actually taking it apart.
[video=youtube;llLdTsIQIHo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llLdTsIQIHo[/video]

He says sometimes after he gets home he'll find rivets in his hair and in his shoes. They kind of end up everywhere.

[fohat.digs]

Now that I have about 4 Model Ms sitting in the garage, 2 completely disassembled, how can I recoup some of the money that I should not have spent in the first place?

Now that I have done it a few times, I have enough experience bolt-modding that I can do it reasonably efficiently. Still, considering price, shipping, parts, tools, ebay/paypal fees, etc, I would realistically need to net at least $80 to make much more than minimum wage if I sell the things. And at $100 I would still not be making a skilled worker's hourly rate.

What does a nice clean bolt-modded Model M usually sell for on the open market?

thanks for your help

[mbc]

[...] I would realistically need to net at least $80 to make much more than minimum wage if I sell the things. And at $100 I would still not be making a skilled worker's hourly rate.
[...]

tell me about it!

But Ripster is right. it only makes sense if you do it as a hobby/out of love