Sentraq S60-X (Build Log, Review, AMA)

[livingspeedbump]

I just got in the Sentraq S60-X PCB and Plate in the mail today, with the additional parts on the way. I'll be doing a full build log and cover programming as well, so feel free to ask me questions along the way. I will also have a full review posted soon as well.

I will update this thread as I make progress with pictures, videos, etc, in the next couple of days, but if you have questions in the meantime let me know!

Sentraq S60-X on Massdrop: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/sentraq-60-diy-keyboard-kit?mode_group=open

[inanis]

Very cool! I saw this up on MD, and the idea of a kit that runs on TMK firmware is really awesome. I'll be interested to hear your opinion on it. 

[getf]

I see that massdrop lists these as coming with PCB mount stabilizers, and the board also supports WKL layout.  Is a 7u wire included?

[f1xedgear]

I saw this drop taking a lot of heat on reddit recently. Might not be the best value buy ever, but it seems like it will be a solid product and I hope it succeeds. Looking forward to your thoughts/review!

[KaLam1ty]

I think the thing that killed it for me was the lack of LED support. It's a great price though.

[VinnyCordeiro]

I have designed this board and uploaded the firmware source code to Github: https://github.com/VinnyCordeiro/tmk_keyboard I hope that helps.

As for LED lighting, I'm already working on a version that have it. I do have to test if it works, though, as it is a concept that I devised just recently (last week, to be honest). If it doesn't work, then I'll try using IS31FL3731 LED driver (will need help on code for this option).

[LeandreN]

Sweet. Always great reviews from you Andy.

[livingspeedbump]

I see that massdrop lists these as coming with PCB mount stabilizers, and the board also supports WKL layout.  Is a 7u wire included?

Not sure yet, hopefully the MD package will show up today or tomorrow. I'll also ask them directly about that too.

[inanis]

My question is why are them marketing this as "entry level"? Seems they should be touting the TMK firmware as something that makes it more than entry level. I'm not in marketing though! Plus the plate options, and layout options...I dunno, just because it doesn't have fancy back lighting doesn't make it "entry".

I know that isn't a question you can answer. I'm just kind of thinking out loud. 

[f1xedgear]

My question is why are them marketing this as "entry level"? Seems they should be touting the TMK firmware as something that makes it more than entry level. I'm not in marketing though! Plus the plate options, and layout options...I dunno, just because it doesn't have fancy back lighting doesn't make it "entry".

I know that isn't a question you can answer. I'm just kind of thinking out loud. 

Just because it has complex capabilities doesn't necessarily mean that it is not "entry level".

I think that it is indeed "entry level" because it is a single kit with all the parts you need to build a very capable 60% board. With this drop, you buy the kit, solder the switches, put it in the case and type. Compare this to a Winkeyless.kr B.face option which has similar capabilities (programming, switch layout, etc.), but would NOT be considered "entry level" because there are so many confusing options you have to choose:

* winkey vs winkeyless bottom row?
* how much soldering do i want done for me?
* what color LEDs do i want?
* what kind of diodes do i want
* with our without RGB under-lighting?
* what 5 different acrylic colors should i pick for the case?

You don't need to know lots about custom keyboards to buy, build, and use this keyboard (since the keycaps option in the drop is ANSI only), but it is still something that you could grow into as your knowledge and skills grow.

[inanis]

My question is why are them marketing this as "entry level"? Seems they should be touting the TMK firmware as something that makes it more than entry level. I'm not in marketing though! Plus the plate options, and layout options...I dunno, just because it doesn't have fancy back lighting doesn't make it "entry".

I know that isn't a question you can answer. I'm just kind of thinking out loud. 

Just because it has complex capabilities doesn't necessarily mean that it is not "entry level".

I think that it is indeed "entry level" because it is a single kit with all the parts you need to build a very capable 60% board. With this drop, you buy the kit, solder the switches, put it in the case and type. Compare this to a Winkeyless.kr B.face option which has similar capabilities (programming, switch layout, etc.), but would NOT be considered "entry level" because there are so many confusing options you have to choose:

* winkey vs winkeyless bottom row?
* how much soldering do i want done for me?
* what color LEDs do i want?
* what kind of diodes do i want
* with our without RGB under-lighting?
* what 5 different acrylic colors should i pick for the case?

You don't need to know lots about custom keyboards to buy, build, and use this keyboard (since the keycaps option in the drop is ANSI only), but it is still something that you could grow into as your knowledge and skills grow.

Sure, but someone could just as easily put together a B.Face kit and sell it. Winkeyless could do it themselves! The board itself is still a B.Face, which as you (correctly) pointed out, is not what people would consider entry level, regardless of if it started as a kit. Perhaps some of the components would be pre-soldered. Tho, I don't consider myself "entry level" and I still don't want to solder SMD parts. That isn't what I consider fun. To each their own and all that. Most of what you pointed out as making something like a B.Face complex has to do with backlighting. Which is true, but I still don't think just because it lacks backlighting it is something for beginners.

With this you can pick your plate, pick your layout, you need to know enough about the layout to get he switches in the rights spot, and you need to flash the firmware. You could pick no case at all and get whatever you want. No restrictions. Plus, TMK has some great capabilities. I think marketing as "entry" is not doing them any favors.  Particularly when the price of the plate and the PCB seem to be the same as, or more than many of the "high end" parts. Again, I'm no marketing expert, but MD and the creator should play up what is different and unique about it so they can sell people on why it is worth the pricetag.

[Bromono]

Did this come with good quality stabilizers and did it come with a 7x space bar stabilizer?

[rpeterclark]

My experience is that the case this kit comes with does not work with a 1.5u-1u-1.5u-7u bottom row without modification. The case PCB supports bump against the PCB mounted stabilizer nubs that poke through the bottom of the PCB. You'll have to dremel the case to fit that bottom row.

[Sifo]

So what's unique about this keyboard vs every other countless 60% custom out there..? Accessibility?

[neverused]

I have designed this board and uploaded the firmware source code to Github: https://github.com/VinnyCordeiro/tmk_keyboard I hope that helps.

As for LED lighting, I'm already working on a version that have it. I do have to test if it works, though, as it is a concept that I devised just recently (last week, to be honest). If it doesn't work, then I'll try using IS31FL3731 LED driver (will need help on code for this option).

I don't see why the Ben Heck method wouldn't work on this.

[VinnyCordeiro]

I don't see why the Ben Heck method wouldn't work on this.

He used Darlington PNP transistors to drive the LED rows, I'm going to use p-channel MOSFETs. It is more power efficient. Also, his configuration is only on/off, my intention is to allow the user to control the lighting level. I already thought in a way to do that, but as I said, I need to test it.

[neverused]

I don't see why the Ben Heck method wouldn't work on this.

He used Darlington PNP transistors to drive the LED rows, I'm going to use p-channel MOSFETs. It is more power efficient. Also, his configuration is only on/off, my intention is to allow the user to control the lighting level. I already thought in a way to do that, but as I said, I need to test it.

Very nice!

[mashby]

Any updates bump?

[f1xedgear]

Any updates bump?

The drop is closing in a few hours and has barely cracked 50 units. I wonder if people are holding off on purchasing until they see this review?

[Bromono]

Any updates bump?

The drop is closing in a few hours and has barely cracked 50 units. I wonder if people are holding off on purchasing until they see this review?

I just bought one.

It technically was supposed to end last night.

they extended it to push the MOQ

I am still in the dark about the stabilizers.

[f1xedgear]

I just bought one.

It technically was supposed to end last night.

they extended it to push the MOQ

I am still in the dark about the stabilizers.

In the description it says "Set of PCB-mounted Cherry stabilizers". I would not assume this includes anything beyond the parts to support the default layout of the optional keycap set which has a 6.25x spacebar. They already had difficulty with MOQ and pricing that people found acceptable, so don't expect it to come with extra parts.

[Bromono]

I just bought one.

It technically was supposed to end last night.

they extended it to push the MOQ

I am still in the dark about the stabilizers.

In the description it says "Set of PCB-mounted Cherry stabilizers". I would not assume this includes anything beyond the parts to support the default layout of the optional keycap set which has a 6.25x spacebar. They already had difficulty with MOQ and pricing that people found acceptable, so don't expect it to come with extra parts.

Which is totally fine.

I just wanted to officially know so I can source the proper stabilizers then.

I don't like to work off assumptions.

You know what they say about assumptions.

"They make an ass out of u and me"

[livingspeedbump]

Just update, the rest of the parts will be here monday, so look for more updates on the build mid next week 

[mashby]

I'm very tempted since it's a 60%, but since it's on Massdrop I'm assuming they will have other rounds.

The total cost isn't bad, but I really just need the PCB and since you have to get the plate that makes it $100 for both and just not a good value.

[livingspeedbump]

I'm very tempted since it's a 60%, but since it's on Massdrop I'm assuming they will have other rounds.

The total cost isn't bad, but I really just need the PCB and since you have to get the plate that makes it $100 for both and just not a good value.

It does include switches as well, remember, but you do make a good point.

[inanis]

I'm very tempted since it's a 60%, but since it's on Massdrop I'm assuming they will have other rounds.

The total cost isn't bad, but I really just need the PCB and since you have to get the plate that makes it $100 for both and just not a good value.

It does include switches as well, remember, but you do make a good point.

It does, and not to state the obvious, but if you don't want them it only takes $6 off the price. It feels like that should be more. I'm not here to question the pricing, I'm sure they thought it out and it made sense in context, but that context may be lost on the buyers.

Alternatively, $6 for enough switches to build a 60% board is a great deal!

[mashby]

The deal as a whole keyboard with case and switches is a good deal. You're exactly right. It's just if you don't want the switches, or the case that the deal isn't so good.

The $100 I quoted was just for the PCB and the plate with shipping. Compare that to the V60 that's on sale right now at $90 and you see what I mean.

I'm sure it will come back down the road and maybe I'll jump on that buy. I'm just proud that I was able to resist buying another 60% board. LOL. 

[livingspeedbump]

I'm very tempted since it's a 60%, but since it's on Massdrop I'm assuming they will have other rounds.

The total cost isn't bad, but I really just need the PCB and since you have to get the plate that makes it $100 for both and just not a good value.

It does include switches as well, remember, but you do make a good point.

It does, and not to state the obvious, but if you don't want them it only takes $6 off the price. It feels like that should be more. I'm not here to question the pricing, I'm sure they thought it out and it made sense in context, but that context may be lost on the buyers.

Alternatively, $6 for enough switches to build a 60% board is a great deal!

Yeah, the case was only like -$5 as well, essentially you really might as well buy this as a full package the way the pricing works. Im not sure how that all works, but it seem like forcing it as a full package would be best. But I know enough to know that the pricing stuff is often a combo of MD, the vendor, and at times the manufacturer so there is often more to the pricing, tiers, etc than most people are aware of.

[zeltner]

This will be my first DIY keyboard project. I wanted to build this w/ mx clear switches though because I have been using browns for about a year now, but I type pretty heavy, and I think that my fingers would really enjoy the heavier switch.

Anyway, clears were not an option, but I went ahead and included switches anyway because the way I see it, $6 for 65 switches seems like a pretty good deal and plus having a set of switches might give me some extra motivation for another project.

Also I just saw that Zealios pre order and from the way it sounds, these are like clears but better. So I just ordered seventy 67g zealios for the build.

[mashby]

LSB -- did the board and parts arrive?

[livingspeedbump]

LSB -- did the board and parts arrive?

So everything arrived. The PCB is a test unit though Some of the resistors came off in shipping and a crystal is absent as well. that part is on order.

But outside of testing the actual PCB (Im sure the retail versions will be just fine when shipped) the bottom case is identical to the KC60/Poker II as far as I can tell, the Gateron switches had slots for RGB lights (at least the ones I got) with the clear tops, and the plate does allow the switches to be opened up once installed. All in all a pretty decent little kit. Once i fix the pcb up i can finally throw it together.

[zeltner]

Do you have any update to this? This will be my first DIY keyboard and I was hoping to have an example to follow when I build this thing. I just received a tracking number from Massdrop for this kit so it should be arriving next week.

[robbles]

Bumping this again. Expecting to get the kit from Massdrop in July and would love a build log to follow or at least a review. I trust livingspeedbump more than anyone.

[OfTheWild]

How goes this build?
I think i've finally pieced together all the extra bits i wanted to use on mine and ready to put it together and solder it up. I just want to make sure i'm doing it right and that i havent missed anything. Also to know what to avoid coming up.

**Edit: I finished building it. Still trying to figure out how to make a custom keymap on a windows box but otherwise I think I could write a noob's guide to building their first board.

[robbles]

The Build
Put mine together yesterday with 67g Zealios. The build was a little confusing as there are multiple inserts on the PCB depending on the layout. I accidentally soldered the keys to the right of the spacebar in the wrong position. You want to use the left-most inserts for the bottom row left of the spacebar and the right-most inserts on the right of the spacebar. Also used the wrong insert for Caps Lock, if you have a standard layout use the right-most insert for that. I suppose the desoldering that was performed is a testament to the quality of the PCB. It is very durable and thick.

I lubed the stabs with thin lube on the sliders and thick for the wire contacts. The stabs were Cherry and unlike what I have seen from other vids and photos. I was planning on clipping them but they appeared to be pre-clipped.

Here's some build photos:

Stabs inserted and lubed. You can see the multiple inserts for the bottom function row and Caps Lock here.

Not sure if it would have been a better idea to insert all the keys into the plate before inserting into PCB. I did it this way to make sure the layouts on the PCB and plate matched.

All switches in!

Build complete! Thought it would be fun to go with an all clear build. Pretty happy with how the red o-rings accent the red cable.

Profile photo for fun.


The Keymap
Mapping a custom layout is a bit of a chore and not for the faint of heart. A Unix based system is highly recommended, and these instructions assume you are on a Mac.

Use Git to clone this repo locally https://github.com/VinnyCordeiro/tmk_keyboard. Use Terminal to cd into the /keyboard/s60-x/ directory. All the files with a .c extension are the uncompiled layout files. These are human readable and editable in a text-editor. I duplicated  keymap_hhkb.c and used that as a starting off point. You can find a list of all the possible key commands for your layout here https://github.com/VinnyCordeiro/tmk_keyboard/blob/master/tmk_core/doc/keymap.md. You can also unzip the S60-X_pre-compiled_firmwares.zip file and used one of the pre-built layouts. If you do this skip to the paragraph about flashing the layout to the keyboard.

After your custom layout file is complete, it is time to compile it into a .hex file so it can be flashed to your keyboard. Before doing that, you need to install the avr-gcc toolchain for the make command to work. You can follow the instructions here to install http://maxembedded.com/2015/06/setting-up-avr-gcc-toolchain-on-linux-and-mac-os-x/. (Installing took forever on my machine. Like ~5-10 minutes. I thought it was hanging but just let it go.)

Finally, you are ready to make your keymap hex file. In the terminal use the command $make KEYMAP=x. Replace "x" with the name of your custom keymap file, which is whatever you put after "keymap_" in the filename (keymap_x.c). After the make is complete, you will see a S60-X_lufa.hex file in the root of the s60-x/ directory. This is the file you will want to use to flash your keyboard.

To flash the keyboard, I used the qmk_firmware_flasher. Download it here https://github.com/jackhumbert/qmk_firmware_flasher/releases. Open the tool and plug in your keyboard. Hold the button on the bottom using a ben or something else that fits through the slot for around 5 seconds, this will put it in program mode. Drag and drop your .hex file that you built into the qmk_firmware_flasher window and click flash. You will see the progress in the window. Once complete, unplug your keyboard and plug it back in. Voila! Your custom keymap is ready. Wasn't that easy?? 

The Feels
For an MX switch, 67g Zealios are really good. With o-rings, it is similar to Topre, but in a truly MX way. If that makes sense. The weight is slightly heavier than a stock HHKB, which is what I wanted. That said, there is some wobble in the keys. Coming from Topre, it is especially noticeable, but not much more noticeable from other MX switches. It isn't replacing the HHKB as my favorite board anytime soon, but that is to be expected from an inexpensive custom. In the future I will lube the switches which I think will help a bit. Also will replace the caps with something higher quality, but for now I really dig the all clear look.

What really makes the S60-X shine is the quality of the PCB. It is thick and the solder points are very clear and large. The keys feel nice sitting in it. The kit I got from Massdrop included an aluminum plate, case and stabs as well. The plate is thin and very malleable. It was slightly warped out of the box. I had to bend it back into place. That said, it is truly universal which is great! Its thinness seems to create a slight pinging sound on the upstroke though which is not desired. The case is basic and gets the job done. I opted for the clear plastic case. I had no trouble seating the PCB and plate inside of it. There are no feet on it though which is currently driving me crazy. I plan on getting some clear rubber feet from Amazon to prop it up a bit.

For a first time custom, this thing was super fun to put together! Flashing the firmware proved to be a chore, and I couldn't imagine doing it without prior experience with Unix. That is the only thing that would keep me from recommending this to other people. But if you're comfortable with that, this thing is hard to beat for the price. Let me know if you have any questions and I'll try to reply. Sorry for hijacking the thread livingspeedbump ;^)

[vortexau]

To flash the keyboard, I used the qmk_firmware_flasher. Download it here https://github.com/jackhumbert/qmk_firmware_flasher/releases. Open the tool and plug in your keyboard. Hold the button on the bottom using a ben or something else that fits through the slot for around 5 seconds, this will put it in program mode. Drag and drop your .hex file that you built into the qmk_firmware_flasher window and click flash. You will see the progress in the window. Once complete, unplug your keyboard and plug it back in. Voila! Your custom keymap is ready. Wasn't that easy?? 

Thank you for posting these photos robbles; they were incredibly helpful - especially the stabilisers - as it appears that this "entry level" kit isn't supplied with any kind of instructions either physical or online!

Anyway I'm following your guide to flashing the keyboard, as the stock image has a tilde where esc should be.

Whatever I do, the software won't recognise the keyboard is in flashing mode - it always simply says "Press RESET on your keyboard's PCB". I do that, and I'm certain the keyboard is going into flashing mode as it no longer registers keystrokes once I press the button, but the software doesn't recognise it. I'm running the software on a Mac as suggested, but also have Linux available too.

Is there another firmware flashing tool available, or am I doing something wrong?

Otherwise - bloody love the keyboard, such a pleasure to type on!

[vortexau]

Worked it out:

To flash a new layout on Linux:
Install dfu-programmer via your favourite package manager.
Connect keyboard. Hold button for 5 seconds.
'lsusb' should show the keyboard in DFU bootloader mode: Bus 003 Device 020: ID 03eb:2ff4 Atmel Corp. atmega32u4 DFU bootloader
sudo dfu-programmer atmega32u4 erase
sudo dfu-programmer atmega32u4 flash <your .hex file>
sudo dfu-programmer atmega32u4 reset (or, unplug and replug - worked ok for me)
Done

[lunas]

robbles - Thanks for posting your build log. I marked your thread way back in February. Great too see things came together. I like the clear look and really like those red o-rings showing through the caps.