[IC] GMK NorDeUK - cheap GMK for Europeans [GB started]

[mathiasn]

We-ell , DE , but black .

[Krakob]

We-ell , DE , but black .

To quote myself from last page

Well I want to keep it very simple in order to make sure it has a broad appeal, so it pretty much boiled down to white on black or black on white. However, black on white can be found on vintage Cherry boards and can be produced through dyesubbing PBT. Therefore I believe the set will have a stronger spot on the market as black on white, since there's a larger gap to fill. In fact, I'm not sure if any white on black double shot sets that cover nordic/german have made it to the market.

If you're looking for German black on white caps of similar quality, I believe you may have a relatively easy time finding them on vintage Cherry boards

[TalkingTree]

I don't think the colour scheme should be a concern. If the GB is successful, other rounds with different colours could be run.

[pomk]

would you consider running this split into three kits like this:

(Attachment Link)

It would give correct legends while keeping the price low by separating ansi and UK keys.

One of the core principles of the set is that it will not be split. In most GBs, you have ANSI as the default. For international support it's often just the bare necessities for ISO, maybe enough for correct ISO UK if you're lucky. German and nordic packs very often fail to hit MOQ due to all the segregation, which is pretty much why this set is run. From a business point of view, it makes sense because it means you can get more ANSI/US buyers by having a lower price, and if there are enough who are willing to buy an international kit, you can get those as well.

By combining our efforts into a single amount of purchases, it means we'll have a much easier time reaching MOQ as instead of having 50 going for the UK kit, 30 for the German kit, and 20 for the Nordic kit we'll get maybe 80-90 people going for the full kit instead. Some buyers will be lost due to the inherent cost of a bigger kit but it's just about the only solution we have to this issue until the keyboard community has grown a whole lot more, or until manufacturers drop their MOQs. In GMK's case, they've already dropped from 250 to 150, and I believe they've run international add-on kits at less. As mentioned in the OP, I'm hoping they'll be willing to run this kit even if we don't hit 150, but we can't know for sure yet.

Should the GB end before we hit the MOQ, I will of course contact them and see if they'll run it at whatever amount we are at then. If not, we'll simply have to cancel.

OK, fair enough. Would you then consider supporting the 'included' layouts fully, maybe at the expense of some less used keys like the WKL bottom row?

Sorry for the quotation marks, but I can't agree that a set supports some locale until my gandpa would be a able to enter an email address using the keys.

[Krakob]

would you consider running this split into three kits like this:

(Attachment Link)

It would give correct legends while keeping the price low by separating ansi and UK keys.

One of the core principles of the set is that it will not be split. In most GBs, you have ANSI as the default. For international support it's often just the bare necessities for ISO, maybe enough for correct ISO UK if you're lucky. German and nordic packs very often fail to hit MOQ due to all the segregation, which is pretty much why this set is run. From a business point of view, it makes sense because it means you can get more ANSI/US buyers by having a lower price, and if there are enough who are willing to buy an international kit, you can get those as well.

By combining our efforts into a single amount of purchases, it means we'll have a much easier time reaching MOQ as instead of having 50 going for the UK kit, 30 for the German kit, and 20 for the Nordic kit we'll get maybe 80-90 people going for the full kit instead. Some buyers will be lost due to the inherent cost of a bigger kit but it's just about the only solution we have to this issue until the keyboard community has grown a whole lot more, or until manufacturers drop their MOQs. In GMK's case, they've already dropped from 250 to 150, and I believe they've run international add-on kits at less. As mentioned in the OP, I'm hoping they'll be willing to run this kit even if we don't hit 150, but we can't know for sure yet.

Should the GB end before we hit the MOQ, I will of course contact them and see if they'll run it at whatever amount we are at then. If not, we'll simply have to cancel.

OK, fair enough. Would you then consider supporting the 'included' layouts fully, maybe at the expense of some less used keys like the WKL bottom row?

Sorry for the quotation marks, but I can't agree that a set supports some locale until my gandpa would be a able to enter an email address using the keys.

I totally understand, but I think the use case for WKL and such is bigger than the need for tertiary legends is. The biggest issue with those is that we'd have to add a pretty big amount of keys in order to satisfy all of the included locales, which raises the price and in turn makes MOQ harder to reach, making it contrary to the goal of this set.

I don't think the colour scheme should be a concern. If the GB is successful, other rounds with different colours could be run.

This is something I've given a bit of thought! I wanted to avoid getting ahead of myself but as the community grows, there will be opportunities to run even bigger sets with more variations for niches like this. This run should serve as a good measure of how big the current UK/DE/Nordic community is and show us what we can aim for right now and what might have to wait for the future.

[TalkingTree]

This run should serve as a good measure of how big the current UK/DE/Nordic community is and show us what we can aim for right now and what might have to wait for the future.

This. That's the very goal of this GB, in my opinion. The colour scheme, for this run, is secondary. Props to you for trying.

[longtran1568]

Thank you for hearing me out!

Now that Del, End and Page Down are R1 I can fill my 96 keys keyboard


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mathiasn]

We-ell , DE , but black .

In fact, I'm not sure if any white on black double shot sets that cover nordic/german have made it to the market.

If you're looking for German black on white caps of similar quality, I believe you may have a relatively easy time finding them on vintage Cherry boards

Sure, just my opinion.
(and, btw. I've got some 5 vintage Cherrys at home)

https://www.computerbase.de/forum/showthread.php?t=1601148 made it to some 120 for DE alone
(I'm not organizing that, numbers added up just from that thread).

[My_Thoughts]

When are you going to run this?  GMK Yuri and GMK Nautilus happen soon

[Krakob]

When are you going to run this?  GMK Yuri and GMK Nautilus happen soon

Submitting to GMK on Friday, albeit I'm already in touch with them! I got a quote for an earlier revision of the set this morning and it looks like it's ending at about €115 + shipping. That's with VAT, shipping to me, and profit margin included!

Currently not sure exactly how much the shipping will be but I think it will be around €15 worldwide at most. It depends on the weight and dimensions of the packages.

[pomk]

would you consider running this split into three kits like this:

(Attachment Link)

It would give correct legends while keeping the price low by separating ansi and UK keys.

One of the core principles of the set is that it will not be split. In most GBs, you have ANSI as the default. For international support it's often just the bare necessities for ISO, maybe enough for correct ISO UK if you're lucky. German and nordic packs very often fail to hit MOQ due to all the segregation, which is pretty much why this set is run. From a business point of view, it makes sense because it means you can get more ANSI/US buyers by having a lower price, and if there are enough who are willing to buy an international kit, you can get those as well.

By combining our efforts into a single amount of purchases, it means we'll have a much easier time reaching MOQ as instead of having 50 going for the UK kit, 30 for the German kit, and 20 for the Nordic kit we'll get maybe 80-90 people going for the full kit instead. Some buyers will be lost due to the inherent cost of a bigger kit but it's just about the only solution we have to this issue until the keyboard community has grown a whole lot more, or until manufacturers drop their MOQs. In GMK's case, they've already dropped from 250 to 150, and I believe they've run international add-on kits at less. As mentioned in the OP, I'm hoping they'll be willing to run this kit even if we don't hit 150, but we can't know for sure yet.

Should the GB end before we hit the MOQ, I will of course contact them and see if they'll run it at whatever amount we are at then. If not, we'll simply have to cancel.

OK, fair enough. Would you then consider supporting the 'included' layouts fully, maybe at the expense of some less used keys like the WKL bottom row?

Sorry for the quotation marks, but I can't agree that a set supports some locale until my gandpa would be a able to enter an email address using the keys.

I totally understand, but I think the use case for WKL and such is bigger than the need for tertiary legends is. The biggest issue with those is that we'd have to add a pretty big amount of keys in order to satisfy all of the included locales, which raises the price and in turn makes MOQ harder to reach, making it contrary to the goal of this set.

You seem quite set on the kit already, but I'll just ask one more thing.

How about getting rid of the UK support, and then supporting (just) the full de/swe/dk/fi/no?
UK GMK sets exist already and many different ones are in stock for one to purchase. The thing is that I find it hard to believe that someone would purchase a limited UK set like this instead of one that would include all of the keys necessary for that locale.

The end result would be to have full support for five locales (instead of none) at a cheaper price, while just losing a couple of people who wish to have an incomplete UK GMK set instead of a full one for a very limited margin.

Just a thought. Good luck with the buy however you decide to continue! 

[Krakob]

would you consider running this split into three kits like this:

(Attachment Link)

It would give correct legends while keeping the price low by separating ansi and UK keys.

One of the core principles of the set is that it will not be split. In most GBs, you have ANSI as the default. For international support it's often just the bare necessities for ISO, maybe enough for correct ISO UK if you're lucky. German and nordic packs very often fail to hit MOQ due to all the segregation, which is pretty much why this set is run. From a business point of view, it makes sense because it means you can get more ANSI/US buyers by having a lower price, and if there are enough who are willing to buy an international kit, you can get those as well.

By combining our efforts into a single amount of purchases, it means we'll have a much easier time reaching MOQ as instead of having 50 going for the UK kit, 30 for the German kit, and 20 for the Nordic kit we'll get maybe 80-90 people going for the full kit instead. Some buyers will be lost due to the inherent cost of a bigger kit but it's just about the only solution we have to this issue until the keyboard community has grown a whole lot more, or until manufacturers drop their MOQs. In GMK's case, they've already dropped from 250 to 150, and I believe they've run international add-on kits at less. As mentioned in the OP, I'm hoping they'll be willing to run this kit even if we don't hit 150, but we can't know for sure yet.

Should the GB end before we hit the MOQ, I will of course contact them and see if they'll run it at whatever amount we are at then. If not, we'll simply have to cancel.

OK, fair enough. Would you then consider supporting the 'included' layouts fully, maybe at the expense of some less used keys like the WKL bottom row?

Sorry for the quotation marks, but I can't agree that a set supports some locale until my gandpa would be a able to enter an email address using the keys.

I totally understand, but I think the use case for WKL and such is bigger than the need for tertiary legends is. The biggest issue with those is that we'd have to add a pretty big amount of keys in order to satisfy all of the included locales, which raises the price and in turn makes MOQ harder to reach, making it contrary to the goal of this set.

You seem quite set on the kit already, but I'll just ask one more thing.

How about getting rid of the UK support, and then supporting (just) the full de/swe/dk/fi/no?
UK GMK sets exist already and many different ones are in stock for one to purchase. The thing is that I find it hard to believe that someone would purchase a limited UK set like this instead of one that would include all of the keys necessary for that locale.

The end result would be to have full support for five locales (instead of none) at a cheaper price, while just losing a couple of people who wish to have an incomplete UK GMK set instead of a full one for a very limited margin.

Just a thought. Good luck with the buy however you decide to continue! 

Well, the only other GMK white on black kit that I know of is originative, and it doesn't provide proper UK support, just the minimum in order to have the set fill an ISO board. A lot of kits do the same, albeit a few have succeeded in full support for non-US locales.

The biggest appeal here is the price combined with better coverage. Only a couple of legends are incorrect for ISO UK, and the price is going to be around €60 cheaper than originative while also not being subject to import taxes and possibly having cheaper shipping.

[pomk]

Well, good luck!

if this fails will you then reconsider? I'd very much like some GMK in my life.

[Krakob]

Well, good luck!

if this fails will you then reconsider? I'd very much like some GMK in my life.

I might, depending on the buyers. If it's 80% UK buyers for example, it would probably not succeed without them.

[Abefyren]

This is a really nice step towards more sets for us northern europeans. I was pretty bummed, that the international kit for Terminal did not hit MOQ.
I have one thing though.
Would you consider adding another 1X1 R4 key next to left shift with < > \ for Danish layout?
And also either another 3 key with # and £ or adding it to the existing for Norwegian and Danish layout.

[My_Thoughts]

How about getting rid of the UK support, and then supporting (just) the full de/swe/dk/fi/no?
UK GMK sets exist already and many different ones are in stock for one to purchase. The thing is that I find it hard to believe that someone would purchase a limited UK set like this instead of one that would include all of the keys necessary for that locale.

How is this an incomplete UK ISO set?  As far as I can see the only thing missing is the secondary € symbol on the 4 key but I don't believe that has ever been offered in a GMK group buy and for reasons already explained in this thread it's not being offered here.  Apart from that minor issue this is a complete UK ISO set I think

[pomk]

The key next to '1' is missing

[Krakob]

This is a really nice step towards more sets for us northern europeans. I was pretty bummed, that the international kit for Terminal did not hit MOQ.
I have one thing though.
Would you consider adding another 1X1 R4 key next to left shift with < > \ for Danish layout?
And also either another 3 key with # and £ or adding it to the existing for Norwegian and Danish layout.

Thanks for pointing out the < > \ key! It will be changed to just < > . There will also be a few changes to the number row in order to make it more consistent with the design philosophy, as I noticed a few issues while looking into this.

[Abefyren]

This is a really nice step towards more sets for us northern europeans. I was pretty bummed, that the international kit for Terminal did not hit MOQ.
I have one thing though.
Would you consider adding another 1X1 R4 key next to left shift with < > \ for Danish layout?
And also either another 3 key with # and £ or adding it to the existing for Norwegian and Danish layout.

Thanks for pointing out the < > \ key! It will be changed to just < > . There will also be a few changes to the number row in order to make it more consistent with the design philosophy, as I noticed a few issues while looking into this.

Nice.

You are doing some great work here. I really appreciate it.

[My_Thoughts]

The key next to '1' is missing

That key is different on every ISO layout and I cannot remember ever using it.  I like the idea of replacing it with a cherry

[Findecanor]

I suppose that the chart is not literal. I believe GMK uses ISO row numbering, not SP row numbering.

No need for ANSI Enter.
Is the home-row Control key stepped or centre-stemmed?

[Giorgio]

Considering that this set is identical to originative, could it be considered a good idea to offer an addon including only the european keys?

[Krakob]

I suppose that the chart is not literal. I believe GMK uses ISO row numbering, not SP row numbering.

No need for ANSI Enter.
Is the home-row Control key stepped or centre-stemmed?

I suppose, I am only familiar with this form of row numbering, seems to be the most common (even used in GMK renders afaik)

ANSI is only supported through left shift, enter, and pipe so as to enable people who may prefer ANSI but still use their own layout or just plain ANSI users who would like a cheap set. It's a pretty small price for a huge benefit!

Home row Ctrl is center stem, as it is on HHKB. I hadn't seen a stepped Ctrl key before but I feel like it's too niche as both home row Ctrl and stepped caps are supported and I wouldn't imagine a lot of people mix the two.

Considering that this set is identical to originative, could it be considered a good idea to offer an addon including only the european keys?

No, addon kits failing to reach MOQ is the reason we almost never see some locales covered. Not to mention, this full kit will be far cheaper than Originative. If this set is very successful, it might be reasonable to run a similar set covering even more locales like French, Spanish, Portugese, Mongolian, Vatican, etc.

[Giorgio]

I suppose that the chart is not literal. I believe GMK uses ISO row numbering, not SP row numbering.

No need for ANSI Enter.
Is the home-row Control key stepped or centre-stemmed?

I suppose, I am only familiar with this form of row numbering, seems to be the most common (even used in GMK renders afaik)

ANSI is only supported through left shift, enter, and pipe so as to enable people who may prefer ANSI but still use their own layout or just plain ANSI users who would like a cheap set. It's a pretty small price for a huge benefit!

Home row Ctrl is center stem, as it is on HHKB. I hadn't seen a stepped Ctrl key before but I feel like it's too niche as both home row Ctrl and stepped caps are supported and I wouldn't imagine a lot of people mix the two.

Considering that this set is identical to originative, could it be considered a good idea to offer an addon including only the european keys?

No, addon kits failing to reach MOQ is the reason we almost never see some locales covered. Not to mention, this full kit will be far cheaper than Originative. If this set is very successful, it might be reasonable to run a similar set covering even more locales like French, Spanish, Portugese, Mongolian, Vatican, etc.

Vatican layout?

[Krakob]

I suppose that the chart is not literal. I believe GMK uses ISO row numbering, not SP row numbering.

No need for ANSI Enter.
Is the home-row Control key stepped or centre-stemmed?

I suppose, I am only familiar with this form of row numbering, seems to be the most common (even used in GMK renders afaik)

ANSI is only supported through left shift, enter, and pipe so as to enable people who may prefer ANSI but still use their own layout or just plain ANSI users who would like a cheap set. It's a pretty small price for a huge benefit!

Home row Ctrl is center stem, as it is on HHKB. I hadn't seen a stepped Ctrl key before but I feel like it's too niche as both home row Ctrl and stepped caps are supported and I wouldn't imagine a lot of people mix the two.

Considering that this set is identical to originative, could it be considered a good idea to offer an addon including only the european keys?

No, addon kits failing to reach MOQ is the reason we almost never see some locales covered. Not to mention, this full kit will be far cheaper than Originative. If this set is very successful, it might be reasonable to run a similar set covering even more locales like French, Spanish, Portugese, Mongolian, Vatican, etc.

Vatican layout?

Gotta look out for the holy father

[Giorgio]

I suppose that the chart is not literal. I believe GMK uses ISO row numbering, not SP row numbering.

No need for ANSI Enter.
Is the home-row Control key stepped or centre-stemmed?

I suppose, I am only familiar with this form of row numbering, seems to be the most common (even used in GMK renders afaik)

ANSI is only supported through left shift, enter, and pipe so as to enable people who may prefer ANSI but still use their own layout or just plain ANSI users who would like a cheap set. It's a pretty small price for a huge benefit!

Home row Ctrl is center stem, as it is on HHKB. I hadn't seen a stepped Ctrl key before but I feel like it's too niche as both home row Ctrl and stepped caps are supported and I wouldn't imagine a lot of people mix the two.

Considering that this set is identical to originative, could it be considered a good idea to offer an addon including only the european keys?

No, addon kits failing to reach MOQ is the reason we almost never see some locales covered. Not to mention, this full kit will be far cheaper than Originative. If this set is very successful, it might be reasonable to run a similar set covering even more locales like French, Spanish, Portugese, Mongolian, Vatican, etc.

Vatican layout?

Gotta look out for the holy father

[Krakob]

Last few changes! Noticed that the norwegian backslash/grave key would've been incorrect (backslash is the neutral state), so it needed a new key. Pipe has been removed from < >, as is in line with the idea of correct first and secondary legends, but tertiary may be removed to reduce key count. £ was added to 3 #, as only SE and DK use 3 #, so there's no conflicts with the pound sign there.

Submitting to GMK tomorrow European evening, so approx. 18 GMT. Please voice any concerns about incorrect legends before then! (Remember, first and second must be correct, third will be removed if it means one key less; no tertiary legend may be incorrect, only removed)

Changes marked in red:

[Krakob]

I have now sent a request for a final quote and a render! Hopefully the GB can start in two or three weeks, depending on how long it takes for GMK to get back and for me to set up

[dsaf]

Two questions:

1) Which GMK white exactly?
2) Which GMK black exactly?

Just want to know GMK Stormtrooper combinability.

[Krakob]

Two questions:

1) Which GMK white exactly?
2) Which GMK black exactly?

Just want to know GMK Stormtrooper combinability.

The whitest white on the blackest black, should've made that clearer. So WS1 on CR.

[Geroximo]

I love my ISO-DE so I would definitely be down for 2 sets, but the white on black is just the most boring colorway I could think of.

[pon10]

IN, IN, IN. Price does not matter (only a little) just as long as we can get more norde kits to hit MOQ.

[Krakob]

[...] white on black is just the most boring colorway I could think of.

Exactly what I aimed for

A simple design to gauge the market and give us something neutral but high quality

[My_Thoughts]

I love my ISO-DE so I would definitely be down for 2 sets, but the white on black is just the most boring colorway I could think of.

If I can sort some funds out I will  get one to support the idea but yes, this really is a boring colourway

[longtran1568]

I still REALLY wish that this set would be BLACK ON WHITE. It would be not only more beautiful but easier to mix and match with other GMK sets. There are more GMK sets with white alpha than black. 

[HerrGartenzwerg]

I still REALLY wish that this set would be BLACK ON WHITE. It would be not only more beautiful but easier to mix and match with other GMK sets. There are more GMK sets with white alpha than black. 

Same here.
A Black on white set for ~150€ would have been an instant buy for me. As it is now, I will see what the final price is and decide then.

[pon10]

My WF keyset lastet about a week being white.. I prefer darker caps 

[DuFF]

while black on white probably would mix better with other keysets, im in anyway.
thinking about not canceling gmk plum and mixing it with this one. 

[Findecanor]

I think German double-shot white-on-black is much easier to get hold of otherwise than any of the other layouts that are supported by this set.

I'm a cheap bastard who already has a lot of white-on-black keys from German keyboards and a couple others, so I would prefer getting only the missing keys that are special to Swedish/Finnish layout.
That would mean waiting until the run is over and then buy leftovers from some British guy. But it wouldn't work if everyone else in the Nordic countries did that.

[Krakob]

I think German double-shot white-on-black is much easier to get hold of otherwise than any of the other layouts that are supported by this set.

I'm a cheap bastard who already has a lot of white-on-black keys from German keyboards and a couple others, so I would prefer getting only the missing keys that are special to Swedish/Finnish layout.
That would mean waiting until the run is over and then buy leftovers from some British guy. But it wouldn't work if everyone else in the Nordic countries did that.

But surely you want some brand new caps? There will be no colour matching issues and they'll have that nice factory new smell and just be astonishing quality!

[arsenics]

I want some brand new caps! Any news from GMK?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Krakob]

I want some brand new caps! Any news from GMK?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

They're working on the render! Sadly they aren't allowed to distribute Cherry logo keys, so it has been changed back to blank.

[LeandreN]

This fantastic keyset by CMD/Originative has support:

https://www.originativeco.com/products/blue-alert-international-kit

[My_Thoughts]

I want some brand new caps! Any news from GMK?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

They're working on the render! Sadly they aren't allowed to distribute Cherry logo keys, so it has been changed back to blank.

But they made these:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79230.0

[Krakob]

I want some brand new caps! Any news from GMK?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

They're working on the render! Sadly they aren't allowed to distribute Cherry logo keys, so it has been changed back to blank.

But they made these:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79230.0

Here's what GMK told me:

Your draft includes a Cherry logo key. Due to the copyright we are not allowed to offer these keys to other companies/people.

[TalkingTree]

But they made these:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79230.0

That's a generic cherry novelty, I don't think they are copyrighted.

xiaodian317 had a keyset made with the actual Cherry logo but, as far as I know, he's a ZF Electronics employee.

[My_Thoughts]

D'oh
I liked the idea of the white cherry on black

[Krakob]

D'oh
I liked the idea of the white cherry on black

Could always get one separately

In other news, the render is already here! GB launching in a week, give or take a few days if everything goes according to plan.

[pon10]

Maybe the blank cap could be a little more creative?
any other graphic to put in use other then the cherry copyrighted logo? or maybe a color?..

No "2" with a @ key for DK?

[Krakob]

Maybe the blank cap could be a little more creative?
any other graphic to put in use other then the cherry copyrighted logo? or maybe a color?..

No "2" with a @ key for DK?

The GMK and Uniqey logos were considered, but I chose not to use them since they're text based, and not icons, which kind of breaks the style.

The @ is not included since it's a tertiary legend, and would require adding an extra key.