Designing the next Topre keycap set

[Bomble]

Reducing options.

All designs need some work with the legends (alignment and sizing mostly). There are 3 fonts there. Of course we can use any font with any color. The gray/yellow one has a more "modern" typeface. The white/red has a narrow font. The others are very close to Helvetica, but all fix the original funky RF legends.

Personally I prefer the icon modifiers, but I'm okay with text. I will probably add a fifth option, possibly more "traditional", not that any of the options so far are incredibly extravagant.

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I really like all of those. Probably 4>2>1>3 but they are all (nearly) equivalent IMO. Still have my fingers crossed for those 23U compatibility though

Keep up the great work!

[yomammary]

I also prefer icon modifiers. I'd take the font of #1 and and then choose 2>3>1>4.
Do we know how it's going to be distributed/sold?

[dustinhxc]

Damn the purple is gone
I like the dark grey alphas in the first one and the white alphas in the 2nd one. The dark grey mods in the 2nd one are nice too. So I'd probably get the 2nd one. 

[btctopre]

Reducing options.

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I'd say regardless of final set decision, I really hope Topre doesn't ignore the market and actually releases the set with HHKB compatibility caps included with it. Things have shifted quite a bit towards the HHKB (and 60% in general) in most major keyboard enthusiast countries where supply is accessible the last couple years, so to leave out things like a 1.75u L_Ctrl, 1.75u R_Shift, 1.5u R_Delete/BS, 1u Fn would likely result in a loss of sales amount that would be larger than the total margin decline amount from manufacturing/including a few extra keys.

*And if the chosen set winds up being the fourth one, and the red color winds up being the same as the standard Esc (not the previously manufactured independent red sets), then Topre already has manufactured multiple custom keys (including keys like 1.75u R_Shifts and 1u Back Spaces, as well as very custom 1U JustSystems keys) in that color before, so it's not like they'd really be stepping out of their comfort zone to accommodate the set.

(I'd personally prefer a white/beige Red Alert or Olivetti with some right proper text legends over anything else, but that might be too tame for this run.)

[korrelate]

and if you could have them pull that hideous bubble cap off of the windows keys (like they do with the hipro) that would be magnificent.

anybody feel me on this one?

[LaPoune]

Reducing options.

All designs need some work with the legends (alignment and sizing mostly). There are 3 fonts there. Of course we can use any font with any color. The gray/yellow one has a more "modern" typeface. The white/red has a narrow font. The others are very close to Helvetica, but all fix the original funky RF legends.

Personally I prefer the icon modifiers, but I'm okay with text. I will probably add a fifth option, possibly more "traditional", not that any of the options so far are incredibly extravagant.

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Green with the icon legends...looks really sweet

[Matt3o]

and if you could have them pull that hideous bubble cap off of the windows keys (like they do with the hipro) that would be magnificent.

anybody feel me on this one?

let me tell ya, the domed key is pure evil! It has been placed by the Japanese to make us gaijin suffer!

[U47]

I love the green. Looks good.

I'm not a fan of the padlock icon for caps—I prefer Apple's "super shift" modifier. And the icons for PGUP, PGDN, etc. could use a little polishing.

My 2¢.

Reducing options.

All designs need some work with the legends (alignment and sizing mostly). There are 3 fonts there. Of course we can use any font with any color. The gray/yellow one has a more "modern" typeface. The white/red has a narrow font. The others are very close to Helvetica, but all fix the original funky RF legends.

Personally I prefer the icon modifiers, but I'm okay with text. I will probably add a fifth option, possibly more "traditional", not that any of the options so far are incredibly extravagant.

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[m1k3]

How about a combination of both text & icons?
Icons where they are easily understood and text for the rest.

Start with the text set and pull in the icons for: backspace, tab, shift and menu and windows.
Oh, and drop the padlock from caps-lock

Reducing options.

All designs need some work with the legends (alignment and sizing mostly). There are 3 fonts there. Of course we can use any font with any color. The gray/yellow one has a more "modern" typeface. The white/red has a narrow font. The others are very close to Helvetica, but all fix the original funky RF legends.

Personally I prefer the icon modifiers, but I'm okay with text. I will probably add a fifth option, possibly more "traditional", not that any of the options so far are incredibly extravagant.

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[jerue]

Reducing options.

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Yes! Glad to see my favorite option is still in the running. So, more votes for the grey/yellow icon mods! I'll also vote for blank mods if it's too much work deciding what to use :D

How about a combination of both text & icons?
Icons where they are easily understood and text for the rest.

Start with the text set and pull in the icons for: backspace, tab, shift and menu and windows.
Oh, and drop the padlock from caps-lock

Welcome to Geekhack!

I respectfully disagree. I don't even look at my boards when I type but it would look very awkward. I think I know what you mean, like the existing RF sets that have both icons and text. My QFS has an icon for an enter key, but text everywhere else. It's annoying  :blank: .

What would you suggest instead of a padlock for caps-lock? I can't really think of a better icon. Even if caps lock is in the wrong position in that mockup  ;)

[Matt3o]

Got feedback from Topre. Good news or bad news... depends on how you see it.

They want to do something "different", something they never did before. I used very simple typefaces because I thought they didn't want to go too far from the current designs, but it seems they want more.

So basically, no Helvetica or close-by. They like the font I used in the yellow/gray layout, but I got the feeling they would like to dare even more. For the same reason, they are not impressed by the "honeywell" layout. So I guess it's a no-go.

I'll now work on these new inputs and produce some more designs.

[stoic-lemon]

Non-standard fonts has me worried, but if anyone can pull it off, it's you.

[korrelate]

Got feedback from Topre. Good news or bad news... depends on how you see it.

They want to do something "different", something they never did before. I used very simple typefaces because I thought they didn't want to go too far from the current designs, but it seems they want more.

So basically, no Helvetica or close-by. They like the font I used in the yellow/gray layout, but I got the feeling they would like to dare even more. For the same reason, they are not impressed by the "honeywell" layout. So I guess it's a no-go.

I'll now work on these new inputs and produce some more designs.

Sniff sniff: a tear and a smile. Bye bye honeywell, but I'm smiling because it's an interesting posture for them to take.

[sth]

Got feedback from Topre. Good news or bad news... depends on how you see it.

They want to do something "different", something they never did before. I used very simple typefaces because I thought they didn't want to go too far from the current designs, but it seems they want more.

So basically, no Helvetica or close-by. They like the font I used in the yellow/gray layout, but I got the feeling they would like to dare even more. For the same reason, they are not impressed by the "honeywell" layout. So I guess it's a no-go.

I'll now work on these new inputs and produce some more designs.

uh oh. i hope that doesn't mean they want to get into DeCK territory )

[Bucake]

if you mean this font?

then that's fine with me i actually like that font, and how the letters are centered.
i also hope they will go with the icons!

no news yet on whether these sets will be sold only as sets, or also as keyboards?
or if these sets will have the extra capslock and ctrl keys?

thanks for the update! (F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5 F5....)

[oscillik]

Got feedback from Topre. Good news or bad news... depends on how you see it.

They want to do something "different", something they never did before. I used very simple typefaces because I thought they didn't want to go too far from the current designs, but it seems they want more.

So basically, no Helvetica or close-by. They like the font I used in the yellow/gray layout, but I got the feeling they would like to dare even more. For the same reason, they are not impressed by the "honeywell" layout. So I guess it's a no-go.

I'll now work on these new inputs and produce some more designs.

please use the Deck font, or close to it




/trollface

[yomammary]

Use Comic Sans?

[colomb]

Oh goodness. Hopefully you can stick with a sans serif font....

[Bomble]

I'm actually quite pleased that Topre want to really step out and do something interesting.

Looking forward to the new designs

[Remenition]

Use Comic Sans?

I once changed my teacher's system font to Comic Sans, wasn't very happy... He should've been happy I didn't use webdings

[btctopre]

tan alphas, navy mods, font made from your own handwriting 123go

[a_ak57]

Got feedback from Topre. Good news or bad news... depends on how you see it.

They want to do something "different", something they never did before. I used very simple typefaces because I thought they didn't want to go too far from the current designs, but it seems they want more.

So basically, no Helvetica or close-by. They like the font I used in the yellow/gray layout, but I got the feeling they would like to dare even more. For the same reason, they are not impressed by the "honeywell" layout. So I guess it's a no-go.

I'll now work on these new inputs and produce some more designs.

Tell them if they really want to do something different then they should have an HHKB kit.   

[esoomenona]

.

[Matt3o]

Got feedback from Topre. Good news or bad news... depends on how you see it.

They want to do something "different", something they never did before. I used very simple typefaces because I thought they didn't want to go too far from the current designs, but it seems they want more.

So basically, no Helvetica or close-by. They like the font I used in the yellow/gray layout, but I got the feeling they would like to dare even more. For the same reason, they are not impressed by the "honeywell" layout. So I guess it's a no-go.

I'll now work on these new inputs and produce some more designs.

Looks like it's time for Sindarin: Topre Edition.

I do not say this often... but... LOL

[Hypersphere]

I like the Otaku Kiibodo design:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=72086.0

[kennardsmith]

Got feedback from Topre. Good news or bad news... depends on how you see it.

They want to do something "different", something they never did before. I used very simple typefaces because I thought they didn't want to go too far from the current designs, but it seems they want more.

So basically, no Helvetica or close-by. They like the font I used in the yellow/gray layout, but I got the feeling they would like to dare even more. For the same reason, they are not impressed by the "honeywell" layout. So I guess it's a no-go.

I'll now work on these new inputs and produce some more designs.

I *really* love oversized legends like on round 5, have you tried that?

Really hope the font doesn't end up a script or a serif  

[Belfong]

I am not sure why I didn't stumble upon this thread and I looked at Spy a lot. It's like someone purposely put a veil on my eyes when this thread appear and now that I stumbled upon this thanks to CTP, I have to look at this closely! Topre is one of my favourite switches and I do have their Red printed, Yellow Printed and Orange key set that was discontinued. And I think that the new design should have widely different colour way, not something we could have mashed together with existing sets eg the Honeywell or the black-and-orange. So, let your imagination fly, Matt3o!!!!

[nukec]

Give me hhkb compactibility, and blanks, and ill show you guts.

[Polymer]

In what way did they want it different?

My initial comments were that these were just like what they had but with a slightly palate and maybe legends change..and I thought that was cool and probably what they wanted...

But I do agree it wasn't that different..

Different to me would be more interesting legends, maybe theme based, maybe colors for the dyesub or different colors for the alphas and legends....Maybe a bit more of a 3rd color on some of keys..esc, enter, windows, backspace, ctrl....Or an RGB/CYM mods, etc...

[Bucake]

Give me hhkb compactibility, and blanks, and ill show you guts.

why would they not? i'm sure a bunch of people actually prefer blank caps (plenty of people have purchased blank HHBKs).
also, i bet some people will end up liking the colors, but the legends not so much. would probably be good to offer a blank option for those people.
or am i wrong? i don't really see a reason for them not to offer a blank set as well..

and i wonder what the image is that topre themselves get, when they think about 'different'?
those icon modifiers with centered legends are quite different, i thought..?

i'm hoping that topre isn't thinking about some clowny RGB kind of look..

[rowdy]

Up above Matt said they did not want to do an HHKB set, which makes a lot of people sad.

But if they produced the RealForce set, and added a few, just a few, extra keys to suit the HHKB, they'd probably sell a LOT more sets.

[Chedda7]

Up above Matt said they did not want to do an HHKB set, which makes a lot of people sad.

But if they produced the RealForce set, and added a few, just a few, extra keys to suit the HHKB, they'd probably sell a LOT more sets.

Would it not also help PFU sell loads of HHKBs?  I don't know the business relationship between PFU and Topre, other then the fact that they use both use Topre products internally, but I assume this is a business driven decision?  I feel like everyone is basically asking Topre to spend EXTRA money and produce something that can help a competitor.  Am I off with this assessment? 

And yes, I agree, they will sell a ton more sets if they fit HHKBs (and 660c's). 

[rowdy]

Up above Matt said they did not want to do an HHKB set, which makes a lot of people sad.

But if they produced the RealForce set, and added a few, just a few, extra keys to suit the HHKB, they'd probably sell a LOT more sets.

Would it not also help PFU sell loads of HHKBs?  I don't know the business relationship between PFU and Topre, other then the fact that they use both use Topre products internally, but I assume this is a business driven decision?  I feel like everyone is basically asking Topre to spend EXTRA money and produce something that can help a competitor.  Am I off with this assessment? 

And yes, I agree, they will sell a ton more sets if they fit HHKBs (and 660c's). 

I was thinking HHKB because they already have the molds for HHKB keycaps, and did make available blank and printed black and white sets.  It should not take a huge leap to make a few extra HHKB-specific keycaps using the existing molds and add them to the RealForce sets.

[Chedda7]

Up above Matt said they did not want to do an HHKB set, which makes a lot of people sad.

But if they produced the RealForce set, and added a few, just a few, extra keys to suit the HHKB, they'd probably sell a LOT more sets.

Would it not also help PFU sell loads of HHKBs?  I don't know the business relationship between PFU and Topre, other then the fact that they use both use Topre products internally, but I assume this is a business driven decision?  I feel like everyone is basically asking Topre to spend EXTRA money and produce something that can help a competitor.  Am I off with this assessment? 

And yes, I agree, they will sell a ton more sets if they fit HHKBs (and 660c's). 

I was thinking HHKB because they already have the molds for HHKB keycaps, and did make available blank and printed black and white sets.  It should not take a huge leap to make a few extra HHKB-specific keycaps using the existing molds and add them to the RealForce sets.

I see what you are saying but from my understanding matt3o was commissioned by Realforce to design this. Adding HHKB keys to the set would benefit PFU,  which is a totally different company.  Liken it to Corsair adding keycaps to a set that are only found on a FILCO board. 

[Matt3o]

guys it's pointless to debate about HHKB compatibility, as disappointing as it could be, that ain't gonna happen.

[btctopre]

guys it's pointless to debate about HHKB compatibility, as disappointing as it could be, that ain't gonna happen.

Once your colors/font are decided, should launch an IC poll "Are you interested in purchasing this custom Topre keycap set?" with options
"Yes, I will purchase this set as it stands (107 key)"
"No, I will only purchase this set if it also includes HHKB compatibility caps"
"No, I will only purchase this set if it also includes FC660C compatibility caps"
"No, I will not purchase this set"
then post a link to it here, reddit, DT, EnjoyClick, KBDMania, etc. If we can show Topre how much money they'll miss out on by not increasing their manufacturing cost by <5%, might be able to change their mind.

[Matt3o]

topre is not interested in making keycaps for other companies.

[esoomenona]

.

[nathanrosspowell]

Yeah, I think a lot of are confused. This isn't in the group by section.

Double check the OP and stop going on about other companies Topre layouts.

Like this, out of the blue, Topre is willing to release a new official keycap set for the Realforce (both full size and TKL) and they asked me to design it.

One step at a time. Don't get mad at Matt3o because he won't ruin this opportunity for HHKB and FC660C support. Let him give Topre what they want. Show them that we will buy large amounts of what Matt3o is invloved with. Then the HHKB set might come about.

[a_ak57]

topre is not interested in making keycaps for other companies.

They should be interested in making money considering they are a business, and this is a way to make considerably more money.  I mean, this entire run is gonna be a niche thing so why wouldn't they want to bring in another crowd to make it more worthwhile?  It's not like HHKB users make up 5 of 100 million topre users; it'd be a substantial number of people who'd suddenly have interest.  And if they think that is an unsubstantiated claim, then we could run the aforementioned interest check.

Unless there was some falling out with PFU and they hate each other, I don't really see why they'd give up the opportunity to make more money.

One step at a time. Don't get mad at Matt3o because he won't ruin this opportunity for HHKB and FC660C support. Let him give Topre what they want. Show them that we will buy large amounts of what Matt3o is invloved with. Then the HHKB set might come about.

Problem is it doesn't really work that way.  A number of us won't be buying because they're not offering what we want.  I'm not gonna drop however much this is gonna cost just so there's a chance they change their minds and I can pay them more money.  But I would agree it's fair we should just drop the issue since Topre is being stubborn about their stupidity, I guess.

[romevi]

topre is not interested in making keycaps for other companies.

They should be interested in making money considering they are a business, and this is a way to make considerably more money.  I mean, this entire run is gonna be a niche thing so why wouldn't they want to bring in another crowd to make it more worthwhile?  It's not like HHKB users make up 5 of 100 million topre users; it'd be a substantial number of people who'd suddenly have interest.  And if they think that is an unsubstantiated claim, then we could run the aforementioned interest check.

Unless there was some falling out with PFU and they hate each other, I don't really see why they'd give up the opportunity to make more money.

So far the only extra keycap sets made are for the Realforce, with only a couple for PFU. That's all Topre has ever done.

It's pointless to argue here in Matt3o's thread because he simply was reached out by Topre to design the next keycap set. He's a contracted artist. That's it. He has no input in their business ventures.

[nathanrosspowell]

One step at a time. Don't get mad at Matt3o because he won't ruin this opportunity for HHKB and FC660C support. Let him give Topre what they want. Show them that we will buy large amounts of what Matt3o is invloved with. Then the HHKB set might come about.

Problem is it doesn't really work that way.  A number of us won't be buying because they're not offering what we want.  I'm not gonna drop however much this is gonna cost just so there's a chance they change their minds and I can pay them more money.  But I would agree it's fair we should just drop the issue since Topre is being stubborn about their stupidity, I guess.

It just seems a lot of people feel so entitled they don't understand what they are asking for:

"Hey, I'm not interested in what they are offering. Hmm, guess I should complain and make them change what they have decided to offer"

You can say it doesn't work that way but lots of people have bought very Realforce sets to get new keys for their HHKB already.

[Bucake]

was a blank set discussed, matt3o?
just curious

[btctopre]

Show them that we will buy large amounts of what Matt3o is invloved with. Then the HHKB set might come about.

Cuts both ways though. Maybe they add a compatibility pack later or include the caps with the next set (assuming there is one), or maybe they decide demand is acceptable enough (because we've artificially inflated it to support Matt) that they don't need to manufacture them. Or maybe the concept doesn't even register on their radar because the first two words on the other keyboards aren't "Topre Realforce" (this seems to be the case).

I'd say if Topre really won't budge now, then non-Realforce users should move on from this set. I'll look into contacting PFU directly to see if they're capable/interested in producing a custom set, but obviously I'll leave discussion on that for another thread (should they get back to me). And if all else fails, there's always JTK (eventually) for us bastards.

Sucks missing out on the first Matt3o Topre set though 

[Chedda7]

One step at a time. Don't get mad at Matt3o because he won't ruin this opportunity for HHKB and FC660C support. Let him give Topre what they want. Show them that we will buy large amounts of what Matt3o is invloved with. Then the HHKB set might come about.

Problem is it doesn't really work that way.  A number of us won't be buying because they're not offering what we want.  I'm not gonna drop however much this is gonna cost just so there's a chance they change their minds and I can pay them more money.  But I would agree it's fair we should just drop the issue since Topre is being stubborn about their stupidity, I guess.

I couldn't agree more. I am elated with the fact that Topre decided to produce what they are. 
It just seems a lot of people feel so entitled they don't understand what they are asking for:

"Hey, I'm not interested in what they are offering. Hmm, guess I should complain and make them change what they have decided to offer"

You can say it doesn't work that way but lots of people have bought very Realforce sets to get new keys for their HHKB already.

[nathanrosspowell]

Show them that we will buy large amounts of what Matt3o is invloved with. Then the HHKB set might come about.

Cuts both ways though. Maybe they add a compatibility pack later or include the caps with the next set (assuming there is one), or maybe they decide demand is acceptable enough (because we've artificially inflated it to support Matt) that they don't need to manufacture them. Or maybe the concept doesn't even register on their radar because the first two words on the other keyboards aren't "Topre Realforce" (this seems to be the case).

I'd say if Topre really won't budge now, then non-Realforce users should move on from this set. I'll look into contacting PFU directly to see if they're capable/interested in producing a custom set, but obviously I'll leave discussion on that for another thread (should they get back to me). And if all else fails, there's always JTK (eventually) for us bastards.

Sucks missing out on the first Matt3o Topre set though 

Yup, I totally understand you man. JTK is pretty much the best hope for the HHKB.

[sth]

topre is not interested in making keycaps for other companies.

They should be interested in making money considering they are a business, and this is a way to make considerably more money.  I mean, this entire run is gonna be a niche thing so why wouldn't they want to bring in another crowd to make it more worthwhile?  It's not like HHKB users make up 5 of 100 million topre users; it'd be a substantial number of people who'd suddenly have interest.  And if they think that is an unsubstantiated claim, then we could run the aforementioned interest check.

Unless there was some falling out with PFU and they hate each other, I don't really see why they'd give up the opportunity to make more money.

One step at a time. Don't get mad at Matt3o because he won't ruin this opportunity for HHKB and FC660C support. Let him give Topre what they want. Show them that we will buy large amounts of what Matt3o is invloved with. Then the HHKB set might come about.

Problem is it doesn't really work that way.  A number of us won't be buying because they're not offering what we want.  I'm not gonna drop however much this is gonna cost just so there's a chance they change their minds and I can pay them more money.  But I would agree it's fair we should just drop the issue since Topre is being stubborn about their stupidity, I guess.

i think you VASTLY overestimate the market Topre is catering to in this case. they make keyboards and input devices and all sorts of other things for massive corporations that spend millions of dollars on their products. this is less than a drop in the bucket to them, not to mention they are from a different place where business goals and values may not be what you are used to.

[Kudos]

I should honestly just cast/mold short shifts in mass and make them readily available. Problem solved 

[Polymer]

Mainly it is because people can't read but maybe change the title to say Official Realforce keycap set rather than Topre....

[yomammary]

Do you think they'd be interested in something with english/japanese legends?