geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Kavik on Sat, 15 September 2018, 20:00:38
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Do you have any keyboards you wish you liked, like the look of but not the typing, or vise versa?
My KBP V80 is mine. I put DSA Lightcycle on it, and I replaced the crappy case with a TEX aluminum case. Both of these upgrades improved the appearance quite a bit. The case improved the overall feel somewhat.
It has Matias Click switches. Despite the fact that I type rather fast on them, I have decided I really don't care for them; they feel and sound very rattly, and they are unreliable (chatter or just not working at all out of nowhere). SP keycaps require finagling to fit onto the stabilizers, so they are a little extra rattly because of that.
Overall, I like the way this keyboard looks, and I want to like it, but I don't enjoy using it much.
Which keyboards do you wish you liked?
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hhkb but it feels like a piece of **** inside a condom
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Any SA keyset just look amazing but I could not get used to spherical also sculpted SA angle is too steep for me, uniform row 3 are ok but overall I still type much faster on cylindrical profile.
Also I bought aluminum case for my Poker 2 and even got braided cable and put LED on it. It look AMAZING but I just can't get used to 60%, full size all the way for me (I type number way too much and arrow key too).
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ah yea SA physically hurts my wrists even though they look cool.
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Anything topre. I wanted to like it, I tried to like it.
Realforce, FC980m, hhkb, novatouch. Just all around rattly and mushy. Lubing and silencing it didn't improve it.
Fite me.
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Anything topre. I wanted to like it, I tried to like it.
Realforce, FC980m, hhkb, novatouch. Just all around rattly and mushy. Lubing and silencing it didn't improve it.
Fite me.
truthhhhh
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HHKB. Have one, key feel excellent. Backspace placement not excellent and unusable in a meaningful way for anybody switching back and forth from TKLS or laptops.
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I wish I liked GMK and ABS.
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I wish I liked GMK and ABS.
I wish more keysets would be made in pbt like 9009 and other stuff kbfans are doing. Expensive abs that shines easily is getting old.
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I have several late-1980s-early-1990s keyboards with great switches - SMK Monterey and MX-mount, NMB Hi-Teks, Acers, etc - with layouts that are "off" just enough to make me hate using them.
1u Backspace, shortened Shift keys (either side or both), etc, these are almost deal-killers for me even though I very much like the switches themselves.
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Topre 87u..
Probably would've liked it more if it wasn't overhyped by the Gekhak Topre Fanbois' at the time.
It's an alrite keeb, but due to the hype, one went in expecting God-Tier, which it certainly was not..
At best, one would consider 87u A-tier, there's Model M in S-tier, MX-Blue in SS-tier, and Ergodox in God-Tier
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I wish I liked TKLs because I have three NovaTouches that I've turned into amazing keyboards (NorbaTouches). The only way I can make them usable is to put a numpad beside them, which while doable, isn't quite ideal because the cases don't match perfectly.
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HHKB and all the strictly 60% keyboards (those without arrow keys).
I have spent around $2000 on those, plus several weeks (months I think) working on SpaceFN (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51069.0 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51069.0)) and GuiFN (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57723.msg1313182#msg1313182 (https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57723.msg1313182#msg1313182)) to compensate for the lack of arrow keys.
I gave up. There is no way I can be as productive on those as on a TKL or FC660.
No arrow keys, no joy.
I now own four FC660 (2 x FC660C + 2 x FC660M) and a dozen TKLs.
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I found that if I map FN to the Caps Lock key (like on my Pok3rs and Nano 75s) and chord it with IJKL for arrows, I am quicker than when I use arrows on the nav cluster. And since IJKL are home position keys, I believe FN+IJKL would also be quicker than if dedicated arrows were on the bottom row. That's why I prefer 60% boards over TKLs; especially since I (only) use 60% boards with my iPads where a numpad isn't needed, and a TKL would just be way too big.
Honestly, TKLs are probably the most useless format for me, second only to 40% boards (or anything smaller than a proper 60% board, really).
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I found that if I map FN to the Caps Lock key (like on my Pok3rs and Nano 75s) and chord it with IJKL for arrows, I am quicker than when I use arrows on the nav cluster. And since IJKL are home position keys, I believe FN+IJKL would also be quicker than if dedicated arrows were on the bottom row. That's why I prefer 60% boards over TKLs; especially since I (only) use 60% boards with my iPads where a numpad isn't needed, and a TKL would just be way too big.
Honestly, TKLs are probably the most useless format for me, second only to 40% boards (or anything smaller than a proper 60% board, really).
If it works for you, great.
However SpaceFN (for example) has the same kind of advantage, with the added benefit of not requiring your left hand to do anything. So the left hand is free to do all the usual "chords" we use all the time when editing text: Shift-arrow (select), Ctrl-arrow (move word by word), even Fn-Shift-arrow (select to begining or end of line)...
Still, I notice that in long coding sessions I often spend a lot of time reading code before making changes. When I do, I don't want to have to keep both hands on the keyboard. I need to relax on my chair because I suffer from lower back pain. In this case, having to keep my left hand on CapsLock or any other key located on the left hand side would be really inconvenient.
Mind you, even having to keep space pressed (when using SpaceFN) becomes tiring after a while. I think it also has to do with having to keep your hand floating in the middle of the keyboard. Resting your wrist on the desktop is possible when you are hovering above IJKL, but it is easier with arrow keys located in the bottom right.
I think the arrow keys are essential keys on a computer keyboard. I see that people want to convince themselves that they are not primary, essential, first class keys. I have been one of those people. But the arrow keys are actually more important than, say, letter keys. After all, if you spend time editing text on a computer, you are using the arrow keys more often than any letter key (I have done stats on this). Your computer keyboard has alphabetical characters, because you type these characters all the time, so it must also have arrows because you use them even more.
Limiting the keyboard to the classic typewriter rectangular alphabetical block (what you get on a typical 60% keyboard like the GH60 or the Poker) is a relic of the past. It's obsolete. The HHKB is the perfect example of this trend, as its shape is even closer to the one of a 1930 typewriter keyboard. I suspect it's part of the appeal, unconsciously. I have an HHKB, and I love the look too.
We are not using typewriters, we are using computers, and on computers the arrow keys are used so often that it does not make sense to not have them directly accessible.
I love the FC660 (C or M) because it breaks the rectangle and adds an extension for the arrow keys. Some people don't find it pleasing, visually, but remember that your hands do not see. My hands find the arrow keys easily because they are a little bit outside the rectangle. I own four FC660, the last one, that I purchased in June, is this one:
https://www.amazon.com/LEOPOLD-compact-keyboard-English-FC660C/dp/B00PINUGJO (https://www.amazon.com/LEOPOLD-compact-keyboard-English-FC660C/dp/B00PINUGJO)
For those who absolutely want a rectangle, there are keyboard designs that include the arrows in it. For example this one, that I have just noticed. I think it's a recent one, and I think it's programmable. I think Vortex nailed the (almost) 60% this time, and I'm actually tempted to order one:
https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=4164 (https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=4164)
Or this one, with a design that has been around for a while:
https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=3917 (https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=3917)
I'm not trying to convince you, because you seem to be satisfied with your setup. But for those who are hesitant about purchasing a 60% keyboard without arrow keys, they should know that there are good-looking alternative with arrow keys.
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Do you have any keyboards you wish you liked, like the look of but not the typing, or vise versa?
My KBP V80 is mine. I put DSA Lightcycle on it, and I replaced the crappy case with a TEX aluminum case. Both of these upgrades improved the appearance quite a bit. The case improved the overall feel somewhat.
It has Matias Click switches. Despite the fact that I type rather fast on them, I have decided I really don't care for them; they feel and sound very rattly, and they are unreliable (chatter or just not working at all out of nowhere). SP keycaps require finagling to fit onto the stabilizers, so they are a little extra rattly because of that.
Overall, I like the way this keyboard looks, and I want to like it, but I don't enjoy using it much.
Which keyboards do you wish you liked?
What a strange concept, to want to like things you don't like. I guess this is why people are different to each other.
This just sounds like a case of FOMO to me.
For ex, I don't like the HHKB layout because I can't work productively with it, and so I just stop caring about it. I don't like how ABS keycaps eventually shine, so i just stop caring about those GBs. Why would you want to like things you don't like?
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this is an all around great thread. good job everyone involved
you too tp4
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Do you have any keyboards you wish you liked, like the look of but not the typing, or vise versa?
My KBP V80 is mine. I put DSA Lightcycle on it, and I replaced the crappy case with a TEX aluminum case. Both of these upgrades improved the appearance quite a bit. The case improved the overall feel somewhat.
It has Matias Click switches. Despite the fact that I type rather fast on them, I have decided I really don't care for them; they feel and sound very rattly, and they are unreliable (chatter or just not working at all out of nowhere). SP keycaps require finagling to fit onto the stabilizers, so they are a little extra rattly because of that.
Overall, I like the way this keyboard looks, and I want to like it, but I don't enjoy using it much.
Which keyboards do you wish you liked?
What a strange concept, to want to like things you don't like. I guess this is why people are different to each other.
This just sounds like a case of FOMO to me.
For ex, I don't like the HHKB layout because I can't work productively with it, and so I just stop caring about it. I don't like how ABS keycaps eventually shine, so i just stop caring about those GBs. Why would you want to like things you don't like?
There are examples in this very thread to answer that question: pleasing aesthetics, but poor feel; good feel, but unproductive layout; affordable price but all-around crappy; or in my case, I already spent money on it and its upgrades before deciding I don't like it because of switches that are not easily changed.
Some things offer advantages but also have some feature that is a deal-breaker for someone; that's what it boils down to.
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I wish I liked clicky switches in general. Especially buckling springs on a Model M. The aesthetics of the board are very charming and to me clicky switches are a big part of the sort of mech keyboard culture but I just can't feel at ease and natural with the clicking sounds since they're so high pitched.
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Brass plates, 40% boards, split backspace. All are cool in their own ways but I will never use them.
On the fence about ISO enter still. I might build one because I just really like having a huge key to hit with authority and ISO enter accent keys look gorgeous.
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Clear housing and clear top MX clone switches. They're loud and sound cheap no matter how much butter you put on them.
Tactile switches. I've got some 65g buttery smooth ergo clears and I'm digging them as an alternative to boring lubed linears, but I still don't like them.
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Any non split non ergo keyboard. That would open up a world of options. But alas I can only use splits. All others hurt.
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I really wish I liked chiclet and regular rubber dome keyboards, then I could spend $20 for a keyboard and replace it without fuss.
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I really wish I liked chiclet and regular rubber dome keyboards, then I could spend $20 for a keyboard and replace it without fuss.
Ha, I thought this too. It's weird that I used to really like the crappy ultra low profile eMachines rubber dome keyboard that came with my old computer. I only found out about mech KBs because I built a PC for video games. I even remember having a conversation with a friend about how much I liked that crap keyboard, and he said something like, "I'm telling you, dude: it's the ****tiest keyboards that are the best (or last the longest, I can't remember)", and I assented. But getting a taste of mechs and going back to cheap rubber domes is like getting an HD TV and then going back to SD.
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If I liked ****ty Dell keyboards, and crappy laptop chicklet boards, then I wouldn't have spent so much time and money on mechs, and would have upgraded my 8 year old Thinkpad years ago.
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I have a Varmilo VA88m: https://lensdump.com/i/varmilo-va88m.8Ge11Z (https://lensdump.com/i/varmilo-va88m.8Ge11Z). I like everything about this keyboard except I made the terrible decision to customize it with Cherry MX Blues. About 10% of the switches sound and feel completely different to the rest, which annoyingly includes spacebar, enter, q and d. These switches are much slower to release and rattle excessively when pressed slowly. I can feel the click jacket rebound through the keycap.
Its too loud to use at work and I fudge spaces and enters too much to use it at work anyway. I was 50/50 on hysteresis beforehand but after using Blues for a few weeks I categorically fell into the "f*** hysteresis" camp. It is currently boxed and sitting in a closet until I can find the time and motivation to shop for aristotles, desolder the entire board and convert them all to cherrystotles.
Its amazing what a few crap switches can do to a board.
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I really wanted to like the Cherry MX Board 6.0. It's such a pretty keyboard, and the aluminum case matched my iMac almost perfectly. I absolutely hated the red switches in it, though. They felt completely dead, even worse than red switches I've felt in other keyboards.
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I wish I liked the ErgoDox. The ErgoDox Infinity was the first keyboard I spent any real money on. On paper it's everything I want in a keyboard. In practice, the thumb cluster is too small and I could never get used to the layout. Like it or not, I'm a slave to QWERTY.
Edit: QWERTY ANSI
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I wish I liked the ErgoDox. The ErgoDox Infinity was the first keyboard I spent any real money on. On paper it's everything I want in a keyboard. In practice, the thumb cluster is too small and I could never get used to the layout. Like it or not, I'm a slave to QWERTY.
Edit: QWERTY ANSI
The thumb cluster is fine.
What tenting angle were you using.
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I, too, wish I liked the Ergodox. I still try to use it every now and again. I don't really have any problem with the form factor, per se, but I'm too used to having cursor keys or a numpad on the board. It just feels like, to type anything at all, I have to get into "serious typing" position, when a fair amount of the time, I only need to navigate or enter in a number or something trivial. I think if I were spending more time just straight typing, it might be more worth it. Maybe I need some separate keyboard/keypad that can accommodate the relaxed or intermittent needs, while keeping the Ergodox for the other typing.
Maybe tp4 has a solution to this problem... I don't think more tenting would solve it.
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The thumb cluster is fine.
What tenting angle were you using.
Tenting is the one thing I haven't had a chance to experiment with. The ErgoDox infinity has a sandwich case and it's not easy to rig something up to properly tent the board. What angle should I be using? Are there aftermarket cases for the Infinity that I can try?
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Minidox with SKCM Blue Alps and NeXT keycaps. God, the clack is so good, but modifiers are so much more important... mistakes were made. Use many layouts interchangeably and still not used to the Minidox layout.
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The thumb cluster is fine.
What tenting angle were you using.
Tenting is the one thing I haven't had a chance to experiment with. The ErgoDox infinity has a sandwich case and it's not easy to rig something up to properly tent the board. What angle should I be using? Are there aftermarket cases for the Infinity that I can try?
you should be using 45-55 degrees of tenting , 45 degrees minimum.
Tenting is the heart and soul of split ergonomics.
It's easy to try it out, just stack some books under it, or some cardboard.
I use long 100mm +50mm bolts for tenting.
You can rig a wooden box and bolt that to the underside as well.
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However SpaceFN (for example) has the same kind of advantage, with the added benefit of not requiring your left hand to do anything. So the left hand is free to do all the usual "chords" we use all the time when editing text: Shift-arrow (select), Ctrl-arrow (move word by word), even Fn-Shift-arrow (select to begining or end of line)...
I agree about these chords - very useful. I use a 60% with the FN in the normal place (split right shift) with 1.5-1-1-1.5 bottom row mods - it's easy to find the edge of the board with your pinky and once you've done that the 'arrows' are right there. If the corner bottom row mod isn't a 1.5 you can't hit it as easily but it's still doable. Of course keycaps are a pain to get...
Personally it's another vote for the HHKB or more generally ANSI - I liked the feel as a change from my usual heavy linears but could never get my head/hand to accept that the |\ or backspace key was not the top of an ISO enter, even when I was using it as backspace without any problem. Clearly my fault not the board :))
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HHKB +1
After much testing etc, I've found the perfect layout for me and it's just a regular ol' ANSI TKL. :D