Another Industrial SSK

[1391406]

BIN at $1,299.00 with a starting bid of $994.95.

[Computer-Lab in Basement]

please tell me that's an absurdly high price...

[jdcarpe]

How funny is it that it's from our friend Ellipse again...

[Joey Quinn]

Despite this being a ridiculous price its still a gorgeous board that I'd love to own.

[Michael]

Did he photoshop the big scratch at the top out?

[Photekq]

Did he photoshop the big scratch at the top out?

It's a different one I think. He's had quite a few.

[Michael]

.

[skcheng]

I know that one of our GH Bros bought the "mint" one?   But I'm guessing the seller has a few since he also sold one last year?   Sometimes a "higher" price gets the sale done??   

[jdcarpe]

Also, just be aware that two recently sold for $765 and $510, respectively.

You don't have to pay what someone is asking, if you are willing to wait for a better deal to come along.

[berserkfan]

Some geeks are very rich and don't feel the need to wait.

Wonder when Ellipse will apply for a vendor account. I'll be much nicer to him when he does that. He's very obviously a businessman. Nothing wrong about that as long as it's up front.

[Elrick]

BIN at $1,299.00 with a starting bid of $994.95.

(Attachment Link)

Rather get me a BRAND new 1800 Aluminum Korean Keyboard with all Grey MX switches installed, which will be considerably cheaper than this old piece of keyboard (sorry no longer an IBM fan willing to pay heaps for ancient junk).

[snoopy]

I like how he keeps on referring to that stupid 1999$ auction...

[rowdy]

I'd love an Industrial SSK, but I'm not going to pay these silly prices for one.

A standard SSK would be fine.  I guess if enough people stop paying silly prices they might go down a little bit?

[faceyourfaces]

Did someone actually buy his other overpriced Industrial SSK?

[1391406]

Did someone actually buy his other overpriced Industrial SSK?

This is the same keyboard, just relisted. The seller ended the previous listing for it(BIN for $999).

[Melvang]

BIN at $1,299.00 with a starting bid of $994.95.

(Attachment Link)

Rather get me a BRAND new 1800 Aluminum Korean Keyboard with all Grey MX switches installed, which will be considerably cheaper than this old piece of keyboard (sorry no longer an IBM fan willing to pay heaps for ancient junk).

Since when has IBM iron been junk?  They must have gotten something right if 30 year old hardware can just get a controller swap or a protocol conversion, and run just fine for more years to come.  Just because you don't want to pay the price, or like the feel of the switch, that doesn't mean they are junk.

[Elrick]

Just because you don't want to pay the price, or like the feel of the switch, that doesn't mean they are junk.

For that amount of Money required by this seller,  would rather buy a rare version of a fully functional Birotron Keyboard  .

[1391406]

Just because you don't want to pay the price, or like the feel of the switch, that doesn't mean they are junk.

For that amount of Money required by this seller,  would rather buy a rare version of a fully functional Birotron Keyboard  .

A Baritron? Really? And you call IBM boards ancient junk.

[snoopy]

Did someone actually buy his other overpriced Industrial SSK?

This is the same keyboard, just relisted. The seller ended the previous listing for it(BIN for $999).

But he announced everywhere (even on DT) that a 'more senior gh member' bought it.

http://deskthority.net/for-sale-f55/clean-ibm-industrial-gray-ssk-space-saving-keyboard-1395682-oct-1992-t9444.html#p205169

Must be a part of his marketing strategy.

[Signature]

Did someone actually buy his other overpriced Industrial SSK?

This is the same keyboard, just relisted. The seller ended the previous listing for it(BIN for $999).

But he announced everywhere (even on DT) that a 'more senior gh member' bought it.

http://deskthority.net/for-sale-f55/clean-ibm-industrial-gray-ssk-space-saving-keyboard-1395682-oct-1992-t9444.html#p205169

Must be a part of his marketing strategy.

I'm getting pretty tired of this attitude of him

[1391406]

Did someone actually buy his other overpriced Industrial SSK?

This is the same keyboard, just relisted. The seller ended the previous listing for it(BIN for $999).

But he announced everywhere (even on DT) that a 'more senior gh member' bought it.

http://deskthority.net/for-sale-f55/clean-ibm-industrial-gray-ssk-space-saving-keyboard-1395682-oct-1992-t9444.html#p205169

Must be a part of his marketing strategy.

Actually, I'm wrong. If you look at the date on the back of the boards for the previous and current listing I posted, they're different boards.

[faceyourfaces]

Did someone actually buy his other overpriced Industrial SSK?

This is the same keyboard, just relisted. The seller ended the previous listing for it(BIN for $999).

But he announced everywhere (even on DT) that a 'more senior gh member' bought it.

http://deskthority.net/for-sale-f55/clean-ibm-industrial-gray-ssk-space-saving-keyboard-1395682-oct-1992-t9444.html#p205169

Must be a part of his marketing strategy.

Actually, I'm wrong. If you look at the date on the back of the boards for the previous and current listing I posted, they're different boards.

Yeah, there's no clearly visible scratch on this one.

[jdcarpe]

Did someone actually buy his other overpriced Industrial SSK?

This is the same keyboard, just relisted. The seller ended the previous listing for it(BIN for $999).

But he announced everywhere (even on DT) that a 'more senior gh member' bought it.

http://deskthority.net/for-sale-f55/clean-ibm-industrial-gray-ssk-space-saving-keyboard-1395682-oct-1992-t9444.html#p205169

Must be a part of his marketing strategy.

Actually, I'm wrong. If you look at the date on the back of the boards for the previous and current listing I posted, they're different boards.

From the auction listing:

A Deskthority thread mentions that likely fewer than 10 of these custom-built Industrial SSK's are extant, compared to the hundreds of Model M's available on eBay at any one time.  Almost all of these keyboards were probably shredded along with the industrial/factory machine being retired or upgraded.  http://deskthority.net/photos-f62/ibm-industrial-space-saver-t6540.html

...

As you know this is one of the rarest IBM keyboards due to the significant expense and relatively limited production run of the original IBM Industrial PC's compared to other IBM PC's.  Only a few of these factory-customized IBM Industrial SSK's have ever come up for sale and are known to still exist according to eBay and the geekhack/Deskthority/Reddit forums.

Only a few, huh? 

[Techno Trousers]

These are just regular old SSKs with a nice case and caps. But I have to admit they really are purty.

And anyone who calls all classic IBM keyboards "junk" couldn't possibly have spent any quality time on a Model F.

[Ellipse]

Yep JD not too many of these survived that grinder.  I count 6 factory-customized Industrial SSK's with the blue keys in the hands of collectors, plus the few I sold in the past 12 months.  Of course there are a number of "regular" Industrial SSKs out there as well.

A warning - this post explains why a keyboard is rare - skip it if you don't like such posts 

If you think it's a regular thing that these custom-blue keys Industrial SSK's come up and that the price will go lower and lower, it is only because of my lucky find of a batch of them is making them come up a lot more than they have in the past 5-10 years.  That's coming to an end sooner than you'd think

Besides my BIN listings, only two have sold at auction this year and last year combined.  Yes one sold for $100 or $200 less than my $900 off-eBay discounted price for all forum members, though it needed a few hours of clean up to say the least and eBay listed it as local pickup only, though the listing said shipping was an option so that may have discouraged further bidding. 

I guess more than one person thought to hold on to them for years after they stopped being useful in their original industrial-type setting.  Maybe the rest went through the same grinder that ate up those poor F62s that elecplus tried to save recently?  You never know.

And yes I hope that a room full of F77s are found so I can just keep my listed F77 as a backup.  There's just so much demand I've seen for it and offers I've received that I've gone and listed a price above the top bid I've been offered (I am open to negotiation on the listed price).  If supply increases these may be worth less.  But then again not one F62 has been found yet after Tinnie's 2013 batch, so those probably won't be worth less any time soon either. 

Based on my Google searches, here are the 6 sellers/owners of these 1395682 custom Industrial SSK keyboards, besides the few units that originally came from me (some GH/DT/Reddit members from the US and abroad have posted keyboards formerly in my collection):

2 - clickykeyboards web site - probably sold years ago
1 - webwit - from Tinnie's find
1 - eBay last year
1 - eBay a week or so ago
1 - eBay in 2010 or 2011, per an old GH post

Plus a few others I'm sure.

I can no longer store my keyboard collection so I began selling them.  I apologize I have been more of a lurker these past years than an active participant. 

JD and others - The high end of every hobby is expensive and prices are considered extravagant by most - just check eBay for the true price people pay - complaining they overpaid won't change anything.  Collectors pay based on supply and demand.

Checking auction listings and past sale news articles:
Monopoly sets have sold for over $5,000
Antique phones sell for hundreds of dollars
Cameras and camera lenses sell for $1k to $2k regularly
Baseball cards have sold for over $1 million
Keyboard caps regularly sell for $100s each in secondary markets
And yes keyboards have sold for $2,000 to $2,500 (a cherry MX5000 and a datahand or some ergonomic model I think)?

I am well within my rights to try to sell part of my keyboard collection at any price I'd like.  No one's paying more than what they agreed to pay for anything here - those buying these at my full asking prices know what they are collecting.

[jdcarpe]

Ellipse, you are definitely within your right to sell your own personal property at whatever price you like. It's your own keyboard, and no one can force you to sell it for less than you are willing to accept for it.

Just because I don't think anyone should PAY that much for a vintage keyboard, doesn't stop you from asking that price. They may or may not be that rare. We may never know how many, if any, are waiting to be found.

While supply and demand does drive free market economies, among collectors or enthusiasts, market forces do not necessarily set prices. We are free to buy, sell, and trade amongst ourselves. And to pass on great values to others when we find them. This is why I encourage others NOT to pay artificially inflated "market prices" if they can avoid it. We as an enthusiast community can set our own prices, simply by refusing to pay more.

[1391406]

While supply and demand does drive free market economies, among collectors or enthusiasts, market forces do not necessarily set prices. We are free to buy, sell, and trade amongst ourselves. And to pass on great values to others when we find them. This is why I encourage others NOT to pay artificially inflated "market prices" if they can avoid it. We as an enthusiast community can set our own prices, simply by refusing to pay more.

How is the market price derived if not from the interplay of supply and demand?  I'm also curious why you feel the market price for this industrial SSK is artificially inflated? What are you basing that on?

[derezzed]

Even if I was rich, I can't see myself spending $1000 on a keyboard.  The industrial SSK is damn sexy though;  one of the nicest boards I've ever seen.  If someone manufactured a Model F replica of the industrial SSK, I would have no choice but to buy it.   It's the one board I'd learn to live without the Win key for.

[jdcarpe]

While supply and demand does drive free market economies, among collectors or enthusiasts, market forces do not necessarily set prices. We are free to buy, sell, and trade amongst ourselves. And to pass on great values to others when we find them. This is why I encourage others NOT to pay artificially inflated "market prices" if they can avoid it. We as an enthusiast community can set our own prices, simply by refusing to pay more.

How is the market price derived if not from the interplay of supply and demand?  I'm also curious why you feel the market price for this industrial SSK is artificially inflated? What are you basing that on?

Sure, that's pretty easy. Let's say for our purposes, you have access to an e-waste recycler that has lots of old IBM stuff. You pick through it and find 10 Model Ms that look serviceable. For those ten, they charge you $100. You take them home and two don't work at all. So, 20% failure rate. You now have 8 Model Ms you can sell, that you paid $100 for, or $12.50 each. Since these are low cost items, let's assume you can double your cost when selling them. So you sell them each at $25, plus actual shipping. Now, there are Model Ms selling on eBay for between $50-100. We can call that "market value," since eBay is an open market. But you decided to pass on the great deal you got to your fellow community members, and they paid less than "market value," while you still made a small profit. And FYI, at retail, a 2.0 markup is considered excellent return. Typical is 1.6. That's how a community of enthusiasts would ideally price their items for sale.

Now, why do I say the price of the industrial SSK is artificially inflated? Because, but for the case and keycaps, it is, for all intents and purposes, simply another SSK. Those have been selling for $150-200 at "market value." Just because a couple people got into a bidding war, and jacked the price of one example up to $1195, does NOT mean that should be the value for all future offerings.

[gr1618]

.

[rowdy]

If I was rich, I would totally spend $1000 on one of these!

And then crush it and post the video on GH.






























jk

[1391406]

While supply and demand does drive free market economies, among collectors or enthusiasts, market forces do not necessarily set prices. We are free to buy, sell, and trade amongst ourselves. And to pass on great values to others when we find them. This is why I encourage others NOT to pay artificially inflated "market prices" if they can avoid it. We as an enthusiast community can set our own prices, simply by refusing to pay more.

How is the market price derived if not from the interplay of supply and demand?  I'm also curious why you feel the market price for this industrial SSK is artificially inflated? What are you basing that on?

Sure, that's pretty easy. Let's say for our purposes, you have access to an e-waste recycler that has lots of old IBM stuff. You pick through it and find 10 Model Ms that look serviceable. For those ten, they charge you $100. You take them home and two don't work at all. So, 20% failure rate. You now have 8 Model Ms you can sell, that you paid $100 for, or $12.50 each. Since these are low cost items, let's assume you can double your cost when selling them. So you sell them each at $25, plus actual shipping. Now, there are Model Ms selling on eBay for between $50-100. We can call that "market value," since eBay is an open market. But you decided to pass on the great deal you got to your fellow community members, and they paid less than "market value," while you still made a small profit. And FYI, at retail, a 2.0 markup is considered excellent return. Typical is 1.6. That's how a community of enthusiasts would ideally price their items for sale.

Was this a reply to my first question or a general opinion on what you consider the ideal ethos of sellers in the community?

Now, why do I say the price of the industrial SSK is artificially inflated? Because, but for the case and keycaps, it is, for all intents and purposes, simply another SSK. Those have been selling for $150-200 at "market value." Just because a couple people got into a bidding war, and jacked the price of one example up to $1195, does NOT mean that should be the value for all future offerings.

I searched eBay's sold listings for "IBM Space Saving Keyboard", which returned approx. 17 results. The selling price ranged between $100 - $500+. Of those 17 SSK's, 16 were standard models. Of the standard models, 7 sold for $100 - $200, while 9 sold for $200 - $500+. Thus, I'm sure you'd agree $150-$200 would be below market value. Further, just because one item is similar to another doesn't mean they will have the same market value. Minor differences can and often do make a significant difference in market value of an item. This is a truism in collector circles. The fact is that enthusiasts are willing to spend more for an SSK with (a) minor variation(s). For example, this Industrial SSK (41G3600) sold for $577 in an auction at Deskthority. Mind you, it's a 1995 Lexmark, not an earlier IBM manufactured variant.

[neverused]

A seller can and will likely ask for the highest price they can, but it is well within the right of anyone else to speak out against a price they think is too much. If that dissenting opinion is valid, it may make people avoid purchasing until the price comes down.

Either way, if you want to price something at a certain level, there will always be critics.

Personally I think this example is outrageous and in our taste, but that doesn't stop anyone from buying it unless they agree.

[1391406]

Personally I think this example is outrageous

Is it anymore outrageous than a Matchbox truck that might typically sell at auction for anywhere between $50 - $100 to sell for approx. $10,000 based on nothing more than an extremely rare color scheme? That's exactly what happened in the case of a guy who bought a No. 30 Matchbox truck at a garage sale for $10 and sold it three years later for $10,000. The only difference between his Matchbox truck and the $50 - $100 variations was the crane and body color.

[neverused]

Personally I think this example is outrageous

Is it anymore outrageous than a Matchbox truck that might typically sell at auction for anywhere between $50 - $100 to sell for approx. $10,000 based on nothing more than an extremely rare color scheme? That's exactly what happened in the case of a guy who bought a No. 30 Matchbox truck at a garage sale for $10 and sold it three years later for $10,000. The only difference between his Matchbox truck and the $50 - $100 variations was the crane and body color.

It's no more outrageous.  I personally think both instances are incredibly stupid and show a gross lack in judgement on the buyer's part.

I also think that foolish choices should be outliers and that if a community at large rallies against such spikes, it may do nothing or it may affect positive change.

[1391406]

Personally I think this example is outrageous

Is it anymore outrageous than a Matchbox truck that might typically sell at auction for anywhere between $50 - $100 to sell for approx. $10,000 based on nothing more than an extremely rare color scheme? That's exactly what happened in the case of a guy who bought a No. 30 Matchbox truck at a garage sale for $10 and sold it three years later for $10,000. The only difference between his Matchbox truck and the $50 - $100 variations was the crane and body color.

It's no more outrageous.  I personally think both instances are incredibly stupid and show a gross lack in judgement on the buyer's part.

I also think that foolish choices should be outliers and that if a community at large rallies against such spikes, it may do nothing or it may affect positive change.

It may seem outrageous to you, but that's simply the scarcity value in action. It's the norm in collecting circles.

[neverused]

Personally I think this example is outrageous

Is it anymore outrageous than a Matchbox truck that might typically sell at auction for anywhere between $50 - $100 to sell for approx. $10,000 based on nothing more than an extremely rare color scheme? That's exactly what happened in the case of a guy who bought a No. 30 Matchbox truck at a garage sale for $10 and sold it three years later for $10,000. The only difference between his Matchbox truck and the $50 - $100 variations was the crane and body color.

It's no more outrageous.  I personally think both instances are incredibly stupid and show a gross lack in judgement on the buyer's part.

I also think that foolish choices should be outliers and that if a community at large rallies against such spikes, it may do nothing or it may affect positive change.

It may seem outrageous to you, but that's simply the scarcity value in action. It's the norm in collecting circles.

Oh I'm sure, I just think that it behooves everyone to counteract and speak out against that kind of nonsense.

[1391406]

Personally I think this example is outrageous

Is it anymore outrageous than a Matchbox truck that might typically sell at auction for anywhere between $50 - $100 to sell for approx. $10,000 based on nothing more than an extremely rare color scheme? That's exactly what happened in the case of a guy who bought a No. 30 Matchbox truck at a garage sale for $10 and sold it three years later for $10,000. The only difference between his Matchbox truck and the $50 - $100 variations was the crane and body color.

It's no more outrageous.  I personally think both instances are incredibly stupid and show a gross lack in judgement on the buyer's part.

I also think that foolish choices should be outliers and that if a community at large rallies against such spikes, it may do nothing or it may affect positive change.

It may seem outrageous to you, but that's simply the scarcity value in action. It's the norm in collecting circles.

Oh I'm sure, I just think that it behooves everyone to counteract and speak out against that kind of nonsense.

Why is it nonsense? Do you have a problem with the price of a regular Model M vs. an Industrial Model M? I mean, the only real difference between the two is the case color.

[Snowdog993]

Why is it nonsense? Do you have a problem with the price of a regular Model M vs. an Industrial Model M? I mean, the only real difference between the two is the case color.

The difference is that they probably cost the same to produce to begin with.  I think the argument is going in circles.  On one hand, the collector sees a rare model that is priceless.  On the other hand, another buyer sees a keyboard.  They do the same thing.  If there were millions of black IBM model M keyboards, the white ones would be "priceless" to a collector. It's all a matter of perspective.

[rowdy]

Anyone know WHY IBM made industrial ones with a different colour case?

[1391406]

Why is it nonsense? Do you have a problem with the price of a regular Model M vs. an Industrial Model M? I mean, the only real difference between the two is the case color.

The difference is that they probably cost the same to produce to begin with. I think the argument is going in circles. On one hand, the collector sees a rare model that is priceless.  On the other hand, another buyer sees a keyboard. They do the same thing. If there were millions of black IBM model M keyboards, the white ones would be "priceless" to a collector. It's all a matter of perspective.

Can you explain how this relates to the point I was making?

[nubbinator]

Anyone know WHY IBM made industrial ones with a different colour case?

Better at hiding the dirt of an industrial environment?

[rowdy]

Anyone know WHY IBM made industrial ones with a different colour case?

Better at hiding the dirt of an industrial environment?

Many of them still look very dirty.

[Snowdog993]

Why is it nonsense? Do you have a problem with the price of a regular Model M vs. an Industrial Model M? I mean, the only real difference between the two is the case color.

The difference is that they probably cost the same to produce to begin with. I think the argument is going in circles. On one hand, the collector sees a rare model that is priceless.  On the other hand, another buyer sees a keyboard. They do the same thing. If there were millions of black IBM model M keyboards, the white ones would be "priceless" to a collector. It's all a matter of perspective.

Can you explain how this relates to the point I was making?

No.

[fohat.digs]

but that's simply the scarcity value in action. It's the norm in collecting circles.

Why is it nonsense?

These threads get more silly with each iteration. It all sounds like jealously and sour grapes to me.

Items that are "collected" take on an entirely different aspect of existence from ordinary utilitarian objects.

Would you guys be getting cranked up over a news story where somebody found an incredibly rare baseball card in his grandfather's attic and sold it for $1M?

Would you rail at him at call him an a$$hole for doing it? I don't think so.

I agree with those of you who are more disturbed when these fine artifacts are mindlessly destroyed.

[pnutcat]

I'm a long time lurker here. This thread is just so interesting that makes me register an account. 

Ellipse has right to set any price he wants, and people also have right against his price. This is all fine and legit, but we need to stop and think for the community what we value most, and take actions that is consistent with the values.

There are two different hats we all wear, one is keyboard enthusiast and one is keyboard collector. As a keyboard enthusiast, we value the feel of a keyboard, the way it works, and sharing of such information, while as a collector, we value scarcity.

Is industrial SSK really different from regular SSK? Let's not forget the red cheery ESC that was once expensive just because it's hard to find one, and the price plummeted after elitekeyboards sells authientic (GMK, I guess) red ESC. As a collector, we are willing to spend crazy amount of money to buy the old cherry ESC, while as a keyboard enthusiast, we care more about how doubleshot keycaps are made, and the cherry ESC is just not so different from the GMK one.

I am not saying that we should not wear the collector's hat. On the contrary, people should continue to do that in order to save more great keyboards. However, we should not forget that, as a keyboard enthusiast community, we should value more about the intrinsic value of keyboards and keycaps, not scacity.

Though I'm a lurker for a long time, personally, I like GH because people here share the same value, including people's defence for Ellipse. He has all rights to do so, but we should act against businessman that takes advantage of our passion and makes a huge profit out of it. If Ellipse finds a great e-waste place that has lots of good old IBM stuff, and if he really wants to contribute to the community, why not just post the address so others can go and rescue more keyboards?

I bet many people here like me would be very disappointed if we encourage what Ellipse is doing. GH is a place that values keyboards, not scarcity.

[1391406]

I'm a long time lurker here. This thread is just so interesting that makes me register an account. 

Ellipse has right to set any price he wants, and people also have right against his price. This is all fine and legit, but we need to stop and think for the community what we value most, and take actions that is consistent with the values.

There are two different hats we all wear, one is keyboard enthusiast and one is keyboard collector. As a keyboard enthusiast, we value the feel of a keyboard, the way it works, and sharing of such information, while as a collector, we value scarcity.

Is industrial SSK really different from regular SSK? Let's not forget the red cheery ESC that was once expensive just because it's hard to find one, and the price plummeted after elitekeyboards sells authientic (GMK, I guess) red ESC. As a collector, we are willing to spend crazy amount of money to buy the old cherry ESC, while as a keyboard enthusiast, we care more about how doubleshot keycaps are made, and the cherry ESC is just not so different from the GMK one.

I am not saying that we should not wear the collector's hat. On the contrary, people should continue to do that in order to save more great keyboards. However, we should not forget that, as a keyboard enthusiast community, we should value more about the intrinsic value of keyboards and keycaps, not scacity.

Though I'm a lurker for a long time, personally, I like GH because people here share the same value, including people's defence for Ellipse. He has all rights to do so, but we should act against businessman that takes advantage of our passion and makes a huge profit out of it. If Ellipse finds a great e-waste place that has lots of good old IBM stuff, and if he really wants to contribute to the community, why not just post the address so others can go and rescue more keyboards?

I bet many people here like me would be very disappointed if we encourage what Ellipse is doing. GH is a place that values keyboards, not scarcity.

Take collecting entirely out of the picture for a moment. There are any number of enthusiasts here that value certain keyboards that are extremely rare very highly and would pay top dollar with the intention of actually using them. I didn't buy my 122-key Model F just so I could put it in a box and stow it away in the closet. It's true I have some Model F's up there, but I keep them as backups, not specifically as collector items, although they do indeed make nice collector pieces. I'm willing to bet the guy that bought the DataHand Pro II probably had every intention of using it. I don't think enthusiasts are getting ripped off or being taken advantage of if they're actually agreeing to part with their money. I mean, if you agree to give me $4000 dollars for an item that I'm selling and that you really want, how am I taking advantage of you or exploiting the community? What we're talking about here is a pact between buyer and seller. If I really, really want a super rare keyboard that's for sale for some exorbitant amount and I have the wherewithal to buy it, why would I pass up the opportunity? It may not come around again. I mean, if it's worth it to me, who cares? No one's twisting anyone's arm to buy anything, you know?

[Snowdog993]

Take collecting entirely out of the picture for a moment. ... No one's twisting anyone's arm to buy anything, you know?

Good for you.