Lowest cherry mx keyboard

[Giorgio]

What is the minimum height of a keyboard with cherry mx switches?
Maybe that the best option is to choose plate mounted switches and a very thin case. For example the top of the key, could be about 22mm (I would prefer a little less than this). Poker II with spherical caps should be around 25mm.

Can you suggest me anything? Ready made keyboard, very thin 60% cases etc.

[Melvang]

Just wondering but what is the reason that you are looking for the lowest profile possible?

Really about the lowest profile but available that I know of is going to be a GON.  Outside of a custom job.

[Giorgio]

I've tried to type on my apple aluminium keyboard simulating a 3cm height, but it is a little bit too much without palm rests (which I hate), I've noticed that the wrist is maybe too bent. I've also tried to type without resting my hands on the table (like a pianist), but that is really too hard...

[pyro]

There also are Cherry ML switches, but they get stuck if you hit them too far off center. The g84-4100 has them.

[Melvang]

I've also tried to type without resting my hands on the table (like a pianist), but that is really too hard...

This is what you need to practice.  Typing with your wrists resting on the desktop or even a wrist rest is a major cause for carpal tunnel syndrome.  Wresting your mouse hand is a bit less of a no-no but still can cause issues.

[jacobolus]

You should never for any reason type with your wrists bent: it’s a great way to do yourself permanent harm.

If you’re having difficulty typing with your wrists in the air, my suspicion is that your keyboard is at the wrong angle for the height of your table relative to your chair. With your wrists straight, you want the keyboard surface to be parallel to your forearms. The reason old computer keyboards have a very steep angle is that they were designed to be used with a tall table and low chair. If you have a tall table and low chair (and you can’t change the height of either one) then you should also have a steeply tilted keyboard.

Better is to figure out how to lower your table and/or raise your chair, such that the keyboard surface can be horizontal while still being parallel to your forearms. Resting your keyboard on your lap or on a table or tray just slightly above your lap is a generally good idea. Alternately, it can work pretty well to switch to a tall stool or a standing desk.

You shouldn’t need to rest your palms on anything as you type, but palmrests are okay to use when you’re resting.

[Giorgio]

What is the height of the front row of your keyboard? Could it be made lower with a thinner case?
Typing with the hand on the air is very stressful, since I often work at the pc for more than 6 hours.
I can easily use the wrist rest by touching it only with the palm of the hand, not the wrist, so it shouldn't do any damage.

[hoggy]

With a taller keyboard, you might need to adjust your chair a little?  Keyboard trays are a much better, but sadly more expensive option.

[jacobolus]

The most important thing is to try to keep your wrists straight. If your wrists are bent upward and you repeatedly flex your fingers, you’ll put a lot of stress on the tendon sheath that passes along the underside of your wrist. If your wrists are bent downward and you repeatedly extend your fingers, you’ll put a lot of stress on the tendon sheath that passes on the top side of your wrist. Neither of those is good. Keeping your wrists pretty close to straight is IMO the most important step to take to avoid RSI.

I’m not sure I’d ever recommend keeping your palms continuously on a palmrest, but if you did absolutely need to do that, you’d want the palmrest to be quite tall (taller than most of the ones I’ve seen), to keep the wrist straight. I’ve heard of people who found it helpful to rest their forearms or elbows on something (e.g. there are expensive forearm rests that slide back and forth a few inches out from a table, and many chairs have armrests), but I don’t have too much personal experience typing with those.

[Giorgio]

What is the acceptable angle between palm and elbow?

[jacobolus]

Most experts seem to recommend an elbow angle of ≥ 90° (which implies having a high chair and/or a low table / keyboard tray), but my personal belief is that elbow angle isn’t nearly as important as wrist angle.

[Giorgio]

Sorry, I meant wrist angle... must it be absolutely flat (180 degrees)?

[Oobly]

Sorry, I meant wrist angle... must it be absolutely flat (180 degrees)?

Preferably, yes, although a small angle is acceptable.

Even with a "palm" rest you shouldn't actually keep your hands on the rest when actively typing. If you're gaming and need to keep your fingers pressing keys for long periods, make a tall hard palm rest for the left hand that keeps your wrist close to 180 degrees.

Another benefit of not using a wrist rest is that you're not anchoring your hand and typing only with fingers / forearms, but you actually get the shoulder and upper arm muscles involved and this reduces fatigue and can increase speed and comfort when typing.

I have a 60% board with very high keycaps (SA profile) and no wrist rest and I tend to move my hands off the keyboard area completely when not actually typing (right hand on mouse, left hand resting with the outside edge on the desk next to the case and thumb side up a bit).

Chair high, desk low, upper arms straightish, about 90 degrees or a little more elbow bend.

[Oobly]

The Cherry G80-3850 has about the lowest profile MX keycaps I have seen so far. They are made by Devlin (L series).

If you really want a low profile mechanical board, you can lube the switches (Cherry ML) of a G84 keyboard, but be aware of a few facts first:

1. The layout and keycaps are smaller than normal, so it's easy to mis-hit keys and hit keys off-centre until you get used to the smaller keys.
2. Off centre hits on ML switches cause them to bind and make them hard to press.
3. Taking the case of ML switches apart is VERY hard without damaging them unless you desolder them from the board to do it.
4. The best lube (Krytox GPL) is quite expensive.
5. There is only one type of switch, like a shorter throw Brown with a slightly bigger tactile bump that starts at the top of the movement.

The lubing helps a lot for off-centre hits and makes them feel much nicer overall, but not quite as nice as a modified / lubed MX Clear switch.

So I recommend rather learning to type with hands "floating" above the board you already have. After a few days you'll probably find it's not tiring any more. After a few more you may find it starts to actually be less tiring and more fun to type, too

[berserkfan]

Just to note my support for this discussion. I don't personally need it, but I know some people do need low profile keyboards so I hope this discussion goes somewhere and stimulates people to produce low profile boards.

[Melvang]

I think one of the lowest possibilities would be something like the JD40 dual plate style case but with the bottom plate removed and just resting on bolts in the corners and then you could run the nuts up and down to drop it down as low as possible.  Could go lower if the teensy was removed from the pcb and placed to the side.  The one other possbility would be Swills silocone tray type case that he made for the jd40.  I have one from his giveaway. I will take a picture of it later today.

[berserkfan]

I think one of the lowest possibilities would be something like the JD40 dual plate style case but with the bottom plate removed and just resting on bolts in the corners and then you could run the nuts up and down to drop it down as low as possible.  Could go lower if the teensy was removed from the pcb and placed to the side.  The one other possbility would be Swills silocone tray type case that he made for the jd40.  I have one from his giveaway. I will take a picture of it later today.

 Time to start hammering the point with JD. I always though his design was way too high, especially for a small keyboard that many geeks will want to take with them on travelling assignments. These geeks won't have access to wrist rests and comfortable places when they type at airports and what not, so JD40 needs to come down. Preferably to be no higher than techkeys business card.

You reading this, JD? Or should I PM you?

[PieterGen]

Lowest would be "Swill to the max", right?
1- make a PCB,
2- use surface mount wherever possible. Solder the SMD parts.
3 - parts like switches must be soldered the old fashioned way (through hole). Try to get nice 'plated through holes'. Or maybe rivets, provided that they are not too thick. The through plating or the rivet will give a better bond to the board, so that we can.....
4- look at the underside of the PCB, see if legs -from the switches or other through hole components- stick out. Grind them off.
5- put an insulating layer under the keyboard.

I say you can either go... 
1- normal (thin) PCB
5- silicone layer + stiff bottom, like aluminium, steel, carbon, nylon, wood, .....

or....
1b- thick, stiff PCB
5b- thin insulating layer. If one would grind, maybe even polish the underside, a rubber film would be enough

or possibly even....
1c- normal (thin) PCB
5c- thin stiff, insulating bottom. Epoxy/polyester, reinforced with glassfibre/kevlar/aramid. Maybe with a thin rubbery/silicone layer in between for evening out irregularities...

or....
1d- thin but stiff PCB. Somehow reinforced with Kevlar or Aramid....
5- thin insulating layer, just enough to prevent shorts & give the keyboard some grip on the desk...


All arm chair theory, I confess     So, would this be doable yes or no?  Or am I crazy 

[jacobolus]

Lowest would be "Swill to the max", right?
1- make a PCB,
2- use surface mount wherever possible. Solder the SMD parts.
3 - parts like switches must be soldered the old fashioned way (through hole). Try to get nice 'plated through holes'.
4- Grind [sticking out leads from the switches or other through hole components] off.
5- put an insulating layer under the keyboard. [...]

All arm chair theory, I confess     So, would this be doable yes or no?  Or am I crazy 

Seems like it should work. I might bend the switch leads over instead of grinding them off though, and clip the switches into a plate (plate doesn’t add any vertical height, just makes everything more stable).

[Oobly]

Lowest would be "Swill to the max", right?
1- make a PCB,
2- use surface mount wherever possible. Solder the SMD parts.
3 - parts like switches must be soldered the old fashioned way (through hole). Try to get nice 'plated through holes'.
4- Grind [sticking out leads from the switches or other through hole components] off.
5- put an insulating layer under the keyboard. [...]

All arm chair theory, I confess     So, would this be doable yes or no?  Or am I crazy 

Seems like it should work. I might bend the switch leads over instead of grinding them off though, and clip the switches into a plate (plate doesn’t add any vertical height, just makes everything more stable).

And you can use a spray on rubber (such as PlastiDip) as an insulating bottom later / anti-slip mechanism

[Giorgio]

Lowest would be "Swill to the max", right?
1- make a PCB,
2- use surface mount wherever possible. Solder the SMD parts.


All arm chair theory, I confess     So, would this be doable yes or no?  Or am I crazy 

I don't understand why plate mounted switches+(pcb OR cables) should be taller than switches+pcb; shouldn't it be equal?
If you use a plate, you can also add some legs to modify the inclination.

[Oobly]

Actually, you can't get much lower than a simple PCB with switches (low profile caps) and an insulating layer. Plate doesn't make a difference to the height. The lowest points will be the centre "pin" housing of the switches, but it's still not "low profile", about 20mm with DSA keycaps. All row 2 DCS would be about 1mm flatter at 19mm and all row 3 just a lower at the centre point of the cap.

ML can be around half the height.

[PieterGen]

Isn't it a shame that we need (at least) a 20mm height keyboard in order to have 4mm travel keys? OK, you need a keycap, which adds some height on top of the stem. And most of all, you need some space underneath, for (part) of the switch mechanism, electronics and case/protection.

We need mechanical switches that are lower, while retaining 4mm travel    !!!

[Melvang]

Just mount the keyboard recessed into a custom keyboard tray?  I still fail to see what difference where the bottom of the keyboard case is makes.  Just get the top of the caps to a comfy location, and the rest is arbitrary.

[PieterGen]

Just mount the keyboard recessed into a custom keyboard tray?  I still fail to see what difference where the bottom of the keyboard case is makes.  Just get the top of the caps to a comfy location, and the rest is arbitrary.

Sure, if you control your desk. My boss would be slightly annoyed though if I would bring a buzz saw to work and cut a piece out of all desks that I work at  )

[Oobly]

Just mount the keyboard recessed into a custom keyboard tray?  I still fail to see what difference where the bottom of the keyboard case is makes.  Just get the top of the caps to a comfy location, and the rest is arbitrary.

Sure, if you control your desk. My boss would be slightly annoyed though if I would bring a buzz saw to work and cut a piece out of all desks that I work at  )

Then raise your chair...

This is true for any board used on a desk. If you're having wrist angle issues, stop using the desk as a wrist rest and start floating your hands when typing. Even though you may curse me for the first few days, you'll thank me in twenty years when you don't have RSI / carpal tunnel, etc...

Cherry ML is 3mm travel. Despite being only 1mm difference it's certainly noticable and takes some time to get used to. However, I don't see a better option for a really low profile mechanical board despite its flaws. The design of the MX mechanism is such that it's just tall. The only possible mods I can think of to shorten them would be to trim the tube the "pin" rides in and shorten the pin, but that doesn't get you much difference.

[PieterGen]

Yeah, i know... back in the day I had a computer trolley, like this one



It stood next to my desk. The keyboard sat low, the screen was high, it was nice. My screen was a big fat CTR at that time :-) The good old ddays, we were also allowed to smoke at work. Smoking, drinking coffee all smashing those keys all day long :-) 

[wordfool]

I'm in the "adjust your workspace" camp. Any keyboard, however slim, always irritates my wrists if I have to have it on the surface of a desk. Using a wrist-rest makes absolutely no difference.  The only solutions I've found are a good keyboard tray that brings it down toward your lap (I use a Humanscale 5G), a standing desk, or a desk with a really thin profile so I can raise my chair high enough without crushing my thighs.

In the US you just need to hint at a potential ergonomics-induced workspace injury and companies will bend over backwards to accommodate your workspace requests 

[jacobolus]

In the US you just need to hint at a potential ergonomics-induced workspace injury and companies will bend over backwards to accommodate your workspace requests 

This totally depends where you work. If you’re a programmer, definitely true.

The history of this is somewhat unfortunate. In 2000, the US President (Clinton) pushed through a bunch of regulatory changes to make employers liable for RSI just as they are for other types of occupational injuries. In 2001, the (Republican party controlled) Congress quickly rolled back those changes, with a bunch of rhetoric about how employees who hurt themselves golfing on the weekend would be trying to exploit their employers, blah blah.

From what I understand (I’m definitely not an expert on this history, so perhaps someone who was paying more attention at the time can correct me if there are mistakes here), one big result was that a lot of the investment in ergonomic keyboards from the few years before didn’t pay off. Keyboard manufacturers had put a bunch of money into R&D and tooling up for an expected huge market if companies would suddenly have a huge financial incentive to avoid RSI. When that market never showed up, people pretty much stopped trying to make new ergonomic keyboard designs (luckily 15 years later we’re seeing a bunch more activity in the field). Microsoft and Logitech have pretty much owned the ergonomic keyboard market with their wave-shaped rubber domes ever since, with other ergonomic keyboards filling a tiny niche.