Author Topic: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard  (Read 9760 times)

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Offline Clicker

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Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« on: Sat, 06 August 2016, 17:57:22 »
Yup... Yet Another MicroSoft 4K mechanical keyboard or YAMS 4k for short. :D

Originally I was modeling this to be machined on a CNC but I never got around to finishing it.

A few months ago I bought a 3D printer and decided to redo the model and print the parts instead. A couple bad starts and many "practice" parts later and I've finally got the plates printed out.

The bed of the printer isn't big enough to print the entire plate in one piece so it's split in to three pieces and bolted together.

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« Last Edit: Sun, 07 August 2016, 02:26:12 by Clicker »

Offline MajorKoos

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 06 August 2016, 21:16:00 »
Very interesting.
I've been on a similar mission of late.
Any thoughts on how to print the outer case?

Offline Clicker

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 07 August 2016, 02:13:26 »
My current plan is to print the outer case in 3 parts upside down similar to the plates. Unfortunately the parts will need to be printed with supports because the face isn't flat.

There are tabs that fit in to pockets in the adjoining part that will help strengthen the joint. Hopefully between that and the ridiculous number of screws I have attaching everything together it will be strong enough. As a last resort I can fiberglass / vacuum bag the outside case if it's not strong enough.

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Offline MajorKoos

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 07 August 2016, 07:10:57 »
Yeah, this is where we run into the limits of what we can do with FDM.
Getting those vertical edges flush is where I keep failing.
The fiberglass idea is pretty good.

I really like my Ultimaker, but I think I'd have been better off getting a CNC mill with a larger build volume.

Offline Clicker

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 07 August 2016, 16:47:36 »
I'm printing at 0.3 layer height and relatively fast for my cheap printer so the surface finish isn't great. I'll need to sand, bondo etc. to get an acceptable finish on the outside. So I'm not too worried about the frame lining up perfectly flush. If it's out a bit I'll be able to tune it up during the finishing process. I'm more concerned with the strength of the joint. That's the reason I turned the bottoms in to Swiss cheese by adding too many screw holes to it. I figured I'd add the holes and if I didn't need them I can leave them empty. I'm starting the print of the first case part and should have the rest done by tomorrow so I'll know how it works out by then...

For the bottoms I added dovetailed joints between the parts. Even dry fit with no epoxy they were extremely strong and straight.
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Offline MajorKoos

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 07 August 2016, 19:16:17 »
I've got a PCB from mkb.com that I've been planning on cutting in half to facilitate the experiment (I'm planning on doing a TKL version) which I hope will simplify things greatly.  I'm taking inspiration from Vermillion - https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=82509.50

Offline Clicker

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 07 August 2016, 22:21:13 »
Have you decided if you're going to make a stacked acrylic case or a 3D printed one? Any pics of your 3D printed attempts so far?

I'm going to hand wire this keyboard. If I like the geometry I'm going to create a second version that has a PCB and a proper metal or carbon fiber plate https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=79881. I'll machine the bottom out of acrylic and 3D print the outer case, wrist rest and the supports between the bottom of the case and the plate / PCB. But considering how long it took me to get this far on version 1, version 2 may be years away...

An idea I had before getting the 3D printer was to machine molds for the outer case so I could layup a fiberglass or carbon fiber case. It's a lot of work to make the mold for the fist one but then it's easy to make multiple copies.

Offline Criterus

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 08 August 2016, 06:07:33 »
This looks really nice. I'm jealous of your modeling skills. I did the same thing with my flashforge.  I'm working on a 50%, but I opted to just try to finish it in a wood case. I wish I would have put in the printed countersinks like you did. I'm fighting having enough depth to get the teensy in under the switch plate and still have enough wood to get the switch plate screwed down with a piece for maple from the homedepot.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=81243.0

Where did you finish out on for total thickness?

Offline Data

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 08 August 2016, 07:36:14 »
You're a brave man.

Offline MajorKoos

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 08 August 2016, 09:14:46 »
Yeah, getting the heights is tricky.
 - 1.5mm plate
 - 9mm spacer
 - 2mm bottom

I've got a gap of 2.5mm between the keys and the bottom of the case and 4.9mm between the PCB and the bottom.
I've left the gap so I can add some Neopixels.

The Teensy I have is 5.7mm thick at the plug and I plan to mount it in the center between the two PCB halves.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=83514.msg2220864#msg2220864

Offline Clicker

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 08 August 2016, 10:57:32 »
The fist two parts of the case finished printing. They fit together well after a little sanding on the tabs. The front edges don't line up perfectly but that's my fault for sanding the case on the left too much before epoxying them together. The top face between the joint is pretty ugly because that's were the printed supports were. Some Bondo and a lot of sanding will hopefully take care of that.

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Offline Clicker

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 08 August 2016, 11:19:51 »
This looks really nice. I'm jealous of your modeling skills. I did the same thing with my flashforge.  I'm working on a 50%, but I opted to just try to finish it in a wood case. I wish I would have put in the printed countersinks like you did. I'm fighting having enough depth to get the teensy in under the switch plate and still have enough wood to get the switch plate screwed down with a piece for maple from the homedepot.

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=81243.0

Where did you finish out on for total thickness?

Thanks, I usually bash my face against Rhino until it does what I want.


The thickness varies because of the tenting and the upwards tilt at the back. At the lowest it's probably 1mm between the switch and the bottom. I've put a few screws and threaded inserts in to test the alignment. With only a few screws it's already ready very rigid. I hate mushy feeling keyboards so it's probably way over built. Version 2 (if it every happens) will be thinner and less bulky.

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If you have a router you could plow out the bottom of the wood fairly easily. Or you could 3D print a bottom to match your existing wood case. The dovetailed joints I used above worked really well.
« Last Edit: Mon, 08 August 2016, 11:35:22 by Clicker »

Offline MajorKoos

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 08 August 2016, 12:56:21 »
The fist two parts of the case finished printing. They fit together well after a little sanding on the tabs. The front edges don't line up perfectly but that's my fault for sanding the case on the left too much before epoxying them together. The top face between the joint is pretty ugly because that's were the printed supports were. Some Bondo and a lot of sanding will hopefully take care of that.

(Attachment Link)

Hmm, this came out pretty well.
Some filler and a bit of sanding will smooth that right out.

Rather than painting I've been thinking about using vinyl - like they use for putting racing stripes on a car.
That could provide a rather nice finish as well as help hide the joins.

Offline Clicker

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #13 on: Mon, 08 August 2016, 15:36:20 »
A little love from the Bondo fairy lots of sanding and the first coat of primer is on


Offline Clicker

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #14 on: Mon, 08 August 2016, 15:43:19 »
Quote
Rather than painting I've been thinking about using vinyl - like they use for putting racing stripes on a car.
That could provide a rather nice finish as well as help hide the joins.

I was thinking the same thing when I first started. Then I made some cornhole boards that had vinyl graphics printed for the top. It was 3M brand, the same stuff that's used on cars. It's forgiving and easy to work with but I don't think I could get it wrap around the compound curves at the back of my case without putting a seam there. Hydro dipping looks pretty cool too but I think I bit off enough already and will stick with paint.
« Last Edit: Mon, 08 August 2016, 15:45:28 by Clicker »

Offline MajorKoos

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #15 on: Mon, 08 August 2016, 16:30:56 »
Quote
Rather than painting I've been thinking about using vinyl - like they use for putting racing stripes on a car.
That could provide a rather nice finish as well as help hide the joins.

I was thinking the same thing when I first started. Then I made some cornhole boards that had vinyl graphics printed for the top. It was 3M brand, the same stuff that's used on cars. It's forgiving and easy to work with but I don't think I could get it wrap around the compound curves at the back of my case without putting a seam there. Hydro dipping looks pretty cool too but I think I bit off enough already and will stick with paint.

Yeah, dipping it may be a bit overkill. 
At least for v1.

I'm impressed at how fast it's coming along - those parts must have taken ages to print.
PLA?

I'm even more impressed with the case design.
Since you're using Rhino I'm guessing you already have some experience in these things?

Offline Clicker

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #16 on: Mon, 08 August 2016, 17:06:52 »
I kinda like this sanded weather beaten look. Sorta like old farmhouse shutters.

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Today's my last day before I have to go back to the real world so I'm trying to get as much done as possible.

Yeah all PLA. The case (gray) was printed with ESun's PLA+. It's supposed to be stronger but I'm not sure it made a difference. I played around with PETG but I never really got it 100% tuned in. Lots of little stringy hairs when ever it retracted. Most parts were around 5 or 6 hours, the longest was about 8. I've got a cheap Wanhao i3 so I stick with 40 mm/s on the shells and 50 mm/s on the infill with 15% infill.
« Last Edit: Mon, 08 May 2017, 22:17:48 by Clicker »

Offline MajorKoos

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #17 on: Mon, 08 August 2016, 17:38:52 »
Wow, the wrist rest looks brilliant.

Considering how far along you are I have to ask the $64 question - does the spacebar work as well as I hope in that orientation?
It looks like it meets the criteria of being compatible with a standard set of keys.

Offline Clicker

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #18 on: Mon, 08 August 2016, 18:15:57 »
When I was still planning to machine the case I made this to test the layout (spacebar fell off). It's similar geometry to the MS 4k. I also wanted to use standard keysets.

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On the current one the space bar feels a little tall. Luckily the spacebar is on a separate plate so I can print a new lower one if I don't like it.

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« Last Edit: Tue, 09 August 2016, 02:12:54 by Clicker »

Offline TD22057

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #19 on: Tue, 09 August 2016, 10:42:29 »
Wow - that's fantastic looking.  I started a thread a few weeks ago asking How to make a MS Natural case? and it looks like your thread is the answer.  Of course the answer really is: it's a lot of work. 

Are you willing to upload your design files when you have something working?  I'd be curious if you think this is a workable solution for someone w/o a 3D printer (using something like https://www.3dhubs.com/).  I'm planning on a modified space bar arrangement (2, 2u keys w/ options for 2.25u and 2.75u spacebars) but other than that it's basically the same design and you're building.

Offline kingpilcrow

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #20 on: Tue, 09 August 2016, 11:30:27 »
Need one of these for my wife.

Offline Clicker

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #21 on: Tue, 09 August 2016, 22:39:07 »
I still need to prime and sand at least one more coat but I couldn't resist putting all the caps in and seeing how it feels with the wrist rest in place. My only complaint is that it's taller than the MS 4k.
For version 2 I'm going to Make it as thin as possible now that I know it's strong enough without a big bulky bottom on it. I can shave at least 4mm maybe 5mm off the height. I have a set of GMKs that would also lower the height but I don't want to give up on SAs yet.


Offline Clicker

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #22 on: Tue, 09 August 2016, 22:54:22 »
Wow - that's fantastic looking.  I started a thread a few weeks ago asking How to make a MS Natural case? and it looks like your thread is the answer.  Of course the answer really is: it's a lot of work. 

Are you willing to upload your design files when you have something working?  I'd be curious if you think this is a workable solution for someone w/o a 3D printer (using something like https://www.3dhubs.com/).  I'm planning on a modified space bar arrangement (2, 2u keys w/ options for 2.25u and 2.75u spacebars) but other than that it's basically the same design and you're building.

Your thread is what prompted me to post and the reason for the name.  :D

Most of time was spent modeling the case. The assembly and finishing isn't too bad. I enjoy sanding and priming stuff but HATE finish painting... so we'll see how that part goes.
I don't think I'll upload this one but I would for version 2 if it works out.
Not sure about getting someone else to print it, I'm still pretty knew to 3D printing myself. I had tolerances in most of the design except for the plate were I had to change the geometry slightly to suit my printer.
It took roughly 1kg of filament and about 3 days to print. I'm not sure what people charge for printing that but I'd guess you're getting close to the cost of cheap printer. I got a Wanhao Duplicator i3 and so far it's been a great little printer. I paid $500 CDN for it but you can get it much cheaper in the US.

You can't modify this design easily. I started with plates and then built the base, bottom and wrist rest around it. If you changed the plate design it would mean changing everything else to suit it.

Offline MajorKoos

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 11 August 2016, 12:30:13 »
This turned out really well.
What infill % did you opt for?

Offline Clicker

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #24 on: Sun, 14 August 2016, 12:30:44 »
This turned out really well.
What infill % did you opt for?

3 shells and 15% infill.
« Last Edit: Sun, 14 August 2016, 12:33:08 by Clicker »

Offline Clicker

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #25 on: Tue, 23 May 2017, 17:00:04 »
The first keyboard ended up being too bulky and uncomfortable to use so I made a new thinner version. Just finished printing the plates and case bottom. I'll hopefully have it wired and the rest of the case printed by next week. I'm not going to bother with any finishing on it until I'm sure I actually like the layout.

Offline MajorKoos

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #26 on: Tue, 23 May 2017, 17:35:59 »
The first keyboard ended up being too bulky and uncomfortable to use so I made a new thinner version. Just finished printing the plates and case bottom. I'll hopefully have it wired and the rest of the case printed by next week. I'm not going to bother with any finishing on it until I'm sure I actually like the layout.

Very cool.
What are you using to join the parts?  Any issued with flex?
I'm using CF PLA a lot now days for the added rigidity and low warp, and I've started using M2 heat set inserts of late and screwing the bits together.
Not sure if you've seen my latest attempt - https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=89152.0

Offline Clicker

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #27 on: Tue, 23 May 2017, 18:06:34 »
Very cool.
What are you using to join the parts?  Any issued with flex?
I'm using CF PLA a lot now days for the added rigidity and low warp, and I've started using M2 heat set inserts of late and screwing the bits together.
Not sure if you've seen my latest attempt - https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=89152.0

The plate in this version has more flex to it than the first one I printed. I'll wait to see if the case helps stiffen it up.  Worst case I might end up having to add more supports to the plates and reprinting them. I'd still like to create a case with a metal or carbon fiber plate but it's taken me this long just to get here...

I designed the plates with holes so I can bolt them together. The case and bottom parts have dovetails or tabs so I can use epoxy to join them.

I used similar heat set threaded inserts (3mm) to attach the plate, bottom and case together. Unfortunate McMaster Carr won't ship to Canada so I'm using cheap aliexpress knock offs instead. They're not as nice as the ones from McMaster Carr but as long as you don't over tighten them they work.
« Last Edit: Tue, 23 May 2017, 18:11:08 by Clicker »

Offline mamcx

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #28 on: Tue, 23 May 2017, 18:28:06 »
Oh, I see this too late. I also doing a MS Ergo Clone:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=84883.msg2269459#msg2269459

I already buy everything (except the plate!). For the body, I will try with a local carpenter. So only the plate need some thinking.

This is my layout:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/75c4808455c07affbad9b1911c6fe6a5

How much could cost to print the plate? To adapt it to my layout?

Offline MajorKoos

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #29 on: Tue, 23 May 2017, 22:18:33 »
Very cool.
What are you using to join the parts?  Any issued with flex?
I'm using CF PLA a lot now days for the added rigidity and low warp, and I've started using M2 heat set inserts of late and screwing the bits together.
Not sure if you've seen my latest attempt - https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=89152.0

The plate in this version has more flex to it than the first one I printed. I'll wait to see if the case helps stiffen it up.  Worst case I might end up having to add more supports to the plates and reprinting them. I'd still like to create a case with a metal or carbon fiber plate but it's taken me this long just to get here...

I designed the plates with holes so I can bolt them together. The case and bottom parts have dovetails or tabs so I can use epoxy to join them.

I used similar heat set threaded inserts (3mm) to attach the plate, bottom and case together. Unfortunate McMaster Carr won't ship to Canada so I'm using cheap aliexpress knock offs instead. They're not as nice as the ones from McMaster Carr but as long as you don't over tighten them they work.

Having a solid core to build the rest of the keyboard around makes a massive difference. 
I'd definitely consider having a plate made. 

Offline MajorKoos

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #30 on: Tue, 23 May 2017, 22:21:22 »
Oh, I see this too late. I also doing a MS Ergo Clone:

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=84883.msg2269459#msg2269459

I already buy everything (except the plate!). For the body, I will try with a local carpenter. So only the plate need some thinking.

This is my layout:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/75c4808455c07affbad9b1911c6fe6a5

How much could cost to print the plate? To adapt it to my layout?

I'd get the plate cut on a laser or water jet so it's a single, solid piece.
I'm not a massive fan of using a 3d printed plate without a PCB as it doesn't hold the switches as well, making them more prone to pulling out when changing keycaps.

Offline Clicker

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #31 on: Wed, 24 May 2017, 17:48:50 »
Quote
Having a solid core to build the rest of the keyboard around makes a massive difference.
I'd definitely consider having a plate made. 

I'll probably go that route eventually.
I machined this test plate awhile ago before I got a 3D printer.

Offline MajorKoos

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #32 on: Wed, 24 May 2017, 18:37:03 »
Quote
Having a solid core to build the rest of the keyboard around makes a massive difference.
I'd definitely consider having a plate made. 

I'll probably go that route eventually.
I machined this test plate awhile ago before I got a 3D printer.

Now that's what I'm talking about!
Nice job.  What did you machine it on?

Offline Clicker

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #33 on: Sat, 27 May 2017, 19:47:03 »
Now that's what I'm talking about!
Nice job.  What did you machine it on?

There was a issue with one of the 3D models I created for the case. Instead of fixing it I redesigned the case to use a plate instead.
I cut these out of 1.5mm carbon fiber plate. They were cut on a big 5' x 12' CNC Router.

Offline MajorKoos

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #34 on: Sat, 27 May 2017, 20:27:43 »
Now that's what I'm talking about!
Nice job.  What did you machine it on?

There was a issue with one of the 3D models I created for the case. Instead of fixing it I redesigned the case to use a plate instead.
I cut these out of 1.5mm carbon fiber plate. They were cut on a big 5' x 12' CNC Router.

That's brilliant  :thumb:
I can't wait to see what it looks like in the case.

Offline MajorKoos

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #35 on: Fri, 02 June 2017, 12:17:14 »
Any progress installing the new plate?

Offline Clicker

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #36 on: Sat, 03 June 2017, 07:39:06 »
Any progress installing the new plate?

I finished printing the bottom and assembled it. I decided to use an OLED screen to show the status of the keyboard instead of LEDs. I modeled an little adapter that will hold it in the two empty holes in the plate at the top right. The little 4 button thingy is what I'm testing the code with.

I really like the look of the bare CF plate. The next thing I'm going to work on is a keyboard with an exposed plate. Not red though... I have blue/gray, silver and raw CF plate.
Unfortunately I don't think 1976 looks good on this type of keyboard especially with the red plate =(

Offline MajorKoos

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #37 on: Sat, 03 June 2017, 22:03:14 »
Nice work.
The OLED is particularly awesome :)
What firmware are you using for that - QMK?

1976 would look awesome with a wood case.
Since you have access to the router, how about a wooden case with a CF plate?

Offline xtrafrood

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #38 on: Sat, 03 June 2017, 22:26:14 »
Yea, I just threw in an OLED screen instead of LEDs no big deal. :eek:  Seriously, fantastic work! I'm really beginning to miss the few MS 2000's I bought some years ago.

Offline Clicker

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #39 on: Sun, 04 June 2017, 02:17:10 »
Hmmm wooden 3D machined case... =)

I've been hacking my own code together to run it. I'm not a c++ guy and have no experience with arduinos so it's probably ugly as sh** but it seems to work.

The OLED was actually really easy to get working. I bought the board from adafruit, downloaded their library and wired it up according to their instructions. It took me more time to figure out how to read the keyboard LED status than it did to get the OLED working.

Offline Clicker

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #40 on: Sun, 18 June 2017, 17:53:21 »
First chunk of the LED back lighting is done. Each LED is individually addressable and has 255 levels of brightness.

Offline MajorKoos

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #41 on: Sun, 18 June 2017, 22:07:45 »
First chunk of the LED back lighting is done. Each LED is individually addressable and has 255 levels of brightness.

Bling is good.
How are you doing the LED's?
PWM'ing a matrix or something much more betterer?
What micro-controller are you using?

Offline Clicker

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #42 on: Sat, 24 June 2017, 21:06:09 »
It's alive!

I'm using a teensy 3.5. The LEDs are controlled by a IS31FL3731 breakout board from adafruit. Handwiring LEDs to match the output for that chip is something I'll never do again... Definitely gonna use a PCB for the next one.


Offline MajorKoos

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Re: Yet another Microsoft 4k keyboard
« Reply #43 on: Thu, 29 June 2017, 08:42:48 »
That must have been somewhere north of 450 solder points!
Brave...