Author Topic: Geekhack Keyboard Proposal  (Read 32396 times)

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Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #50 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 15:46:25 »
Ah! You beat me in putting in inverted T arrows.
What I was thinking:

Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #51 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 15:49:19 »
The second arrangement is interesting, but is there really that much use for the context menu key?

With the elimination of that key, you can group scroll lock and pause/break, perhaps put those over the arrows, and center those two rows in relation to the rest of the keyboard.

Another possibility is to keep symmetry in the first two rows by moving the scroll lock and pause/break keys over the arrow cluster, and moving the contest menu key to mirror the escape key.
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Offline ch_123

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« Reply #52 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 15:51:09 »
Quote from: quadibloc;119406




What software do you use to create these layout diagrams? Do you have a template or something?

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #53 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 15:57:06 »
I created a layout with the cursor T pushed up and to the right by one key form, moving the right arrow outside of the 'box'. However, my server space is being glitchy, so I can't upload it right now.

I work with the cursor T constantly, so it has to be within easy reach and it has to be a T. The split solutions and the top of the board concept won't work for me.
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Offline msiegel

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« Reply #54 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 16:22:34 »
is someone using the right windows key?

i liked the inverted t between right alt and control :)

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Offline JBert

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« Reply #55 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 16:27:33 »
Quote from: Rajagra;119410
Ah! You beat me in putting in inverted T arrows.
What I was thinking:
This one is interesting and pretty clever: the distance to the cursor T is about the same compared when it is at the bottom, yet you have access to Home/End, page up/down and even have the backspace at hand!

@quadibloc: I just tend to like Rajagra's layout more than the broken cursor or F-key row alternative. Must have something to do with the fact I don't use any terminal software, but still...


Oh, and just for the record, here's the rest of my nice-to-have list again:
  • Keyboard bottom edge buttons to use as some extra thumb modifiers (like the mighty mouse but without stick)
  • Blank top with small or no Geekhack logo. Fancy sticker on the backside, geekhack logo can be put there.
  • Greased springs for slightly quieter typing.
  • Model F-style springs.

The last one is unlikely, but I added it just in case.  :-)
« Last Edit: Sun, 20 September 2009, 16:29:59 by JBert »
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Offline msiegel

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« Reply #56 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 16:31:13 »
if there were a total of 6 rows, then 12 function keys could be placed on the left side, like the model F :)

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Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #57 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 16:34:55 »
Quote from: msiegel;119430
if there were a total of 6 rows, then 12 function keys could be placed on the left side, like the model F :)

I had that thought as well. Tres retro!
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Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #58 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 21:04:22 »
Quote from: Rajagra;119410
Ah! You beat me in putting in inverted T arrows.
What I was thinking:

Well, I was trying to keep the six keys above the arrows on the regular keyboard in their original arrangement, as Shawn Stanford had originally requested, if I could.

Quote from: timw4mail;119413
The second arrangement is interesting, but is there really that much use for the context menu key?

With the elimination of that key, you can group scroll lock and pause/break,

And here I was thinking I dumped the Windows Menu key in left-over space. I had been intentionally keeping Print Screen, Scroll Lock, and Pause next to each other in that order to preserve their relationship on the regular keyboard.

Quote from: JBert;119429
Model F-style springs.

Why not go whole hog? Capacitative circuit board... 3278-style key and spring assembly!

Quote from: Shawn Stanford;119419
I work with the cursor T constantly, so it has to be within easy reach and it has to be a T. The split solutions and the top of the board concept won't work for me.

Well, I've tried. To be a T, and to also be not far from the six large-movement keys, as someone else requested, pretty much eliminates the kind of design I was playing with - to satisfy both conditions, one pretty much does have to keep it simple, and just go to the Space Saver type keyboard for which there is a petition.

Some people like the HHKB, others don't, and for the mass market, at least, the most common space-saving keyboard seems to be an imitation laptop arrangement.

From my own experience, the fanciest cursor key arrangement is the traditional + arrangement, the T being something peculiar to the IBM PC. But if you work on more than one computer, naturally you want all the computers you work with to have the same layout.

Of course, my previous keyboard idea was for one that was heavily customizable, but it seems to me that the issues with this design can't be solved with different modes that move keys around, because the physical location and width of keys is different depending on which type of layout is desired.

So it's looking like I can't satisfy, in the same design, even with alternate keyboard arrangements, both your requirements and those of some of the others. And I didn't even like my last attempt myself that much, because the only keyboard designs I've seen with the function keys in two rows of six seemed to be unpreposessing ones, so doing that might get the keyboard confused with cheap, inferior keyboards - not a good thing if we want to persuade someone to make it as a premium product.

I may be giving up too quickly - and the ideal keyboard for you, with eight rows of keys, may not in fact cause any manufacturing issues. After all, a 122-key keyboard has eight rows of keys, and Unicomp makes those. Maybe I'll think of something - or someone else will.
« Last Edit: Sun, 20 September 2009, 21:25:22 by quadibloc »

Offline rdh

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« Reply #59 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 22:45:51 »
Quote from: quadibloc;119473
From my own experience, the fanciest cursor key arrangement is the traditional + arrangement, the T being something peculiar to the IBM PC.

The inverted-T arrow key arrangement seems to have originated with the DEC LK201 keyboard.  
Lemme see if I can find the story... Ah, here it is.


EDIT: Here's Quadibloc's LK201 diagram:
« Last Edit: Sun, 20 September 2009, 22:56:28 by rdh »
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Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #60 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 23:07:12 »
Quote from: rdh;119482
The inverted-T arrow key arrangement seems to have originated with the DEC LK201 keyboard.


I wouldn't have been that surprised if it hadn't been used before the PC, since there were so many other arrangements that were used. But I would not have guessed the LK201 predated the PC keyboard - since it had a key between Z and the left shift key (even though the IBM 3278, for example, did that before the PC, as my web site also notes).

Offline rdh

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« Reply #61 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 23:23:31 »
Quote from: rdh;119482
The inverted-T arrow key arrangement seems to have originated with the DEC LK201 keyboard.

I probably should have said it was popularized by the LK201 (used with the VT220 terminal); I couldn't say if it originated there.

Quote from: quadibloc;119486
But I would not have guessed the LK201 predated the PC keyboard

Not by much.   According to Wikipedia, the VT220 was first sold in 1983.

EDIT: The DEC Rainbow 100 computer seems to have also used the LK201, and was sold around the same time.
« Last Edit: Sun, 20 September 2009, 23:31:10 by rdh »
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Offline msiegel

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« Reply #62 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 23:30:33 »
Quote from: quadibloc;119473
I may be giving up too quickly - and the ideal keyboard for you, with eight rows of keys, may not in fact cause any manufacturing issues. After all, a 122-key keyboard has eight rows of keys, and Unicomp makes those. Maybe I'll think of something - or someone else will.


i still like your original design :)

if the right side could toggle between a standard numeric pad and a standard editing cluster, maybe that would help.

excuse my crude editing, all the numeric pad keys are supposed to be normal, just moved down one row ;)


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Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #63 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 23:37:27 »
Well, I have come up with a design that simultaneously meets JBert's requirement that the cursor keys be close to the keys like Page Up and Down, and Shawn Stanford's requirement that the cursor keys be in an inverted-T arrangement at the bottom of the keyboard:



It's easy when you discard preconceived notions - in this case, that the keyboard can't have two copies of one popular group of keys, the cursor keys.

And the extra four keys at the top, the additional copy of the cursor keys, allows me to put the function keys at the top, and the more useful keys in the more reachable area below. To plug the hole that might remain, I add two keys... an Fn key, to allow fancy footwork for customization (like switching Ctrl and Caps Lock)... and the international key.

EDIT: Ah, I see how I can improve this further, and avoid duplication. Since I've got an Fn key on the layout, I can switch between two positions for the cursor keys.

So I can have Alt, Windows Shift, and Ctrl in normal size on the right, and three keys centered below Windows Shift... labelled as Power, Sleep, and Wake. Or I can have Windows Shift and the three ACPI keys go where the cursor keys are at the top... and have the inverted T cursor keys at the bottom.

Only trouble would be hitting those three extra keys accidentally. Perhaps three other extra keys might be more useful or practical.
« Last Edit: Sun, 20 September 2009, 23:46:33 by quadibloc »

Offline msiegel

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« Reply #64 on: Sun, 20 September 2009, 23:42:18 »
that's compact! :D

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Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #65 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 00:49:36 »
Here's a diagram showing one of the two states of the design with the minor change I noted, but this time in my usual color scheme so it's easier to see the different groups of keys:



The idea is that the left Windows Shift key and the keys shown as :, (, and ) would be exchanged with the cursor keys; not in a straight key-for-key swap, but with the groups as a whole being exchanged, and taking an optimum arrangement in their new home.

Offline msiegel

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« Reply #66 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 01:07:48 »
Quote from: quadibloc;119496
The idea is that the left Windows Shift key and the keys shown as :, (, and ) would be exchanged with the cursor keys; not in a straight key-for-key swap, but with the groups as a whole being exchanged, and taking an optimum arrangement in their new home.


now that the colon and parens are up there, it makes me think of defining emoticon macros :) :D XD

hey, how about an experiment for the sake of aesthetics: what if the bottom right and left arrow keys were the same widths as alt and control.... and how about a gap separating the numbers row from the top 2 rows :)

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Offline jelly

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« Reply #67 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 02:21:57 »
it look kind of strange to me.

the layout. hopefully we get a layout that everyone is happy with.

Offline JBert

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« Reply #68 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 02:48:30 »
Quote from: quadibloc;119496
Here's a diagram showing one of the two states of the design with the minor change I noted, but this time in my usual color scheme so it's easier to see the different groups of keys:



The idea is that the left Windows Shift key and the keys shown as :, (, and ) would be exchanged with the cursor keys; not in a straight key-for-key swap, but with the groups as a whole being exchanged, and taking an optimum arrangement in their new home.
Once again, if the keyboard has an Fn key you can reach with your thumbs, it would be a go for me.

I still have some minor issues with it though:
- The top cursor arrangement could be made similar to Vi's arrangement; i.e. Left, Down, Up, Right. Just changes the default...
- Would it be possible to pull the keycaps of the bottom cluster and cover up the key wells? Those keys might be slightly annoying if I let my wrists rest on the keyboard's edge, and I would use the top cluster anyway. (I don't have a model M so I don't know how much the key well rises above the rest of the case.) Changing the layout just for this issue is could mean we're back to the start.

I applaud you for your "geekhacker support".
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Offline JBert

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« Reply #69 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 02:49:01 »
Quote from: jelly;119501
it look kind of strange to me.

the layout. hopefully we get a layout that everyone is happy with.
It sure looks a little strange. But would you use it?
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Offline jelly

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« Reply #70 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 03:46:50 »
Quote from: JBert;119506
It sure looks a little strange. But would you use it?


dont think i will use it.

Offline DreymaR

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« Reply #71 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 06:03:19 »
I use the Colemak UNEI (QWERTY IJKL) keys for the arrows, with CapsLock as the Fn key. That'd be hard to beat I think, after getting used to it. Of course, I have a lot of other mappings too.

Screw having a whole bunch of keys, when you can use Fn-type keys to get all the rare ones from your main position instead. Instead of a huge breadboard and hands flying all over in front of you, it's so easy to cram everything you will ever need into a compact layout.

Everybody here seem to be forgetting that I and others need a key between the usual Z position and the left Shift (I move the ZXCVB keys one step to the left so the extra key is in the middle instead). As mentioned before, that doesn't make it hard to hit left Shift at all in contrast to the assumptions of people who haven't tried it. So please try it.

Here's what I came up with: A rather minimalistic change because that seems easiest to get to work. Just changing the row stagger to something sensible instead of the idiotic stagger we have today. I honestly don't think that the best answer is an unstaggered board unless you hinge it or angle the key banks.



There's a trackpoint in the middle, and the key below it is a normal key not a mouse button - not sure where to put those actually.

That image is just a quick concept hack, not a finished version. I think I would want a row of function keys on top unless the Fn key works so seamlessly that the number row can take over safely.

Didn't draw the bottom row, but I'd like a split Space bar to accomodate a configurable extra key (or two - one normal key between two short 'space bar'-type keys) so I can have both Space and Enter under the thumbs.
« Last Edit: Mon, 21 September 2009, 06:08:20 by DreymaR »
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Offline JBert

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« Reply #72 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 06:20:12 »
A trackpoint would mess with the idea I had about using the mouse buttons as modifiers, although a spacebar  split in 3 would solve the lack of buttons there. On the other hand, this kind of staggering would be a great improvement regarding ergonomics.

The main problem here is that I don't know if we could get it made or how large the interest for it would be once we swap to a layout like this one.
Maybe we'd need to do a layout showoff poll, although that would probably end with no result.

(Also, I use a slightly different finger pattern.)
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Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #73 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 07:27:02 »
Quote from: msiegel;119489
Show Image

Integrating the cursor keys and the numpad is clever. Why not push the system keys (Print Screen, Scroll Lock, etc) up over the top of the F keys and push the alphanumeric area down a key. That would thin it out a little.
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Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #74 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 07:28:46 »
Quote from: msiegel;119499
now that the colon and parens are up there, it makes me think of defining emoticon macros


The idea was that they're useful if one is programming in LISP. Since :, (, and ) are in different positions on different national keyboard layouts, though, some software cooperation would be required. The idea is that they could be replaced by power, sleep, and wake or some other three useful extra keys.

Quote from: msiegel;119499
and how about a gap separating the numbers row from the top 2 rows :)


But that would destroy the numeric keypad!

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #75 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 07:30:24 »
FWIW: The new i-rocks keyboard has a decent layout space-wise. Just a matter of deleting the numpad:


Edit: This layout could also be squeezed a little width-wise if the '|\' key were moved and some space cheated off the backspace, Enter, RShift, RCtrl and RAlt keys. This would let you slide the cursor and gross movement keys left.

Edit: Thinking about it: I'd be willing to lose the separate F keys if there was a conveniently placed function modifier to use with the numeric keys. However, gamers might object to this...

Edit: I hope nobody's getting too wrapped around the axle about this thought exercise. I'm enjoying the process and I hope everyone else is as well. When it's all said and done, I'll take a look at the final version and make a decision to beg someone to make it and put in a pre-order or not. But it's nothing to lose any sleep or hair over.
« Last Edit: Mon, 21 September 2009, 07:38:07 by Shawn Stanford »
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Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #76 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 07:46:18 »
Quote from: msiegel;119489
i still like your original design :)


Thank you.

Quote from: msiegel;119489
excuse my crude editing, all the numeric pad keys are supposed to be normal, just moved down one row ;)


In fact, my original arrangement



could definitely be remapped in such an arrangement. The three yellow keys and 7, 8, and 9 would be the Insert/Page Down rectangle in standard shape, and, just as you depict, 1, 2, 3, and 5 could be the inverted-T cursor cluster.

I don't think that's what most people would want as the default, but it would be useful for Shawn.

Quote from: Shawn Stanford;119540
I hope nobody's getting too wrapped around the axle about this thought exercise.


Well, I was looking for input as to how I could improve my design to satisfy more people. What's bothering me is that while your input was one of the first specific suggestions I received, it looks like the requirement for an inverted-T cursor cluster comes into conflict with most other constraints on the keyboard design.

However, it could be that I'm not being ingenious enough... or I'm trying to be too clever.

So instead of being too clever, why not just take the plain space saver keyboard arrangement (I've drawn this one quickly, so I haven't added in Windows keys, or shown where an Fn key would go to allow remapping) and add keys that would allow a numeric keypad to be created without making the layout bigger (I just left the added keys in numeric keypad form, instead of making them yellow, so it's clear and obvious how the remapping would work.)



So the keyboard would actually look like this, perhaps:

« Last Edit: Mon, 21 September 2009, 08:19:12 by quadibloc »

Offline JBert

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« Reply #77 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 08:07:50 »
Quote from: quadibloc;119543
In fact, my original arrangement

Show Image


could definitely be remapped in such an arrangement. The three yellow keys and 7, 8, and 9 would be the Insert/Page Down rectangle in standard shape, and, just as you depict, 1, 2, 3, and 5 could be the inverted-T cursor cluster.

I don't think that's what most people would want as the default, but it would be useful for Shawn.
Some kind of hybrid cursor/misc/numpad block would be no problem for me if I can hold the Fn key with the thumb of my other hand, or if you can make the Fn layer "stick"/lock for a while.

Additionally, you could even push the F-keys down into the numeric row and the Esc key into the top left key (the tilde key). If you need a tilde, you can map it to Fn+Esc of course.
Those pesky Print Screen, Scroll lock and pause keys haven't got a home yet, so maybe we should omit them or stuff them into some Fn layer.

Anyway, I guess we have now come full circle...


EDIT: Oh, you edited your post.
« Last Edit: Mon, 21 September 2009, 08:10:49 by JBert »
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Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #78 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 08:15:36 »
What about my compact layout idea? Nobody likes the grouping of the function keys?
http://timshomepage.net/layout.php
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Offline JBert

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« Reply #79 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 08:20:22 »
The Compaq MX11800 has an F-keys block like that and it is rather annoying.
The basic problem is that (1) most layouts use a single row (2) your fingers haven't got a real "anchor point".
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Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #80 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 08:21:23 »
Quote from: timw4mail;119555
What about my compact layout idea? Nobody likes the grouping of the function keys?
http://timshomepage.net/layout.php


I meant to ask about that keyboard layout when I saw it; was it intended to be a non-staggered layout, or was it just drawn that way for simplicity?

As is no doubt noticeable, I'm going for as conventional a keyboard as possible, to have the widest possible appeal. Of course one can select Colemak or Dvorak on the computer, but I'm assuming most people want an ordinary keyboard... yet just different enough not to be what they already have.

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #81 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 08:22:44 »
Quote from: JBert;119551
EDIT: Oh, you edited your post.


And now I've edited it again! After coming full circle, yes, I tried to move further along and find one more way to make Shawn happy along with everyone else... and come up with an interesting layout that makes me happy too.

Offline timw4mail

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« Reply #82 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 08:29:38 »
Quote from: quadibloc;119558
I meant to ask about that keyboard layout when I saw it; was it intended to be a non-staggered layout, or was it just drawn that way for simplicity?

As is no doubt noticeable, I'm going for as conventional a keyboard as possible, to have the widest possible appeal. Of course one can select Colemak or Dvorak on the computer, but I'm assuming most people want an ordinary keyboard... yet just different enough not to be what they already have.

Yes, it is intended to be non-staggered, although it could just as easily be made staggered, I suppose.
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Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #83 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 08:41:05 »
Quote from: quadibloc;119558
was it intended to be a non-staggered layout, or was it just drawn that way for simplicity?

As is no doubt noticeable, I'm going for as conventional a keyboard as possible, to have the widest possible appeal.


I just realised something while looking at DreymaR's post. If you reduce the offset of each row to be 1/4 key width each time (instead of the normal 1/2, 1/4, 1/2) then people probably wouldn't even notice the change, but it should be more comfortable.

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #84 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 08:53:28 »
Quote from: quadibloc;119543
What's bothering me is that while your input was one of the first specific suggestions I received, it looks like the requirement for an inverted-T cursor cluster comes into conflict with most other constraints on the keyboard design.

Well, I'm definitely hooked on the inverted T. I thought it was one of the best things since sliced bread when keyboards went from imbedding the cursor movement keys in the numeric keypad and to the inverted T. And I have never found enough use for the numeric keypad to justify having one. I don't even remember the last time I used one; it's probably been ten years or more.

Your original layout would work fine with the far left top-row key pre-defined as ESC and the system control keys (Print Screen, etc.) in the three blank keys over the numeric keypad, and the top row defined as F-keys with the use of the green Function key (or even predefining the Windows and Menu keys as Function keys and deleting the protruding Function key).

My recommendation would be to try to get a set of blank or alternate keycaps for other arrangements. For instance, I would almost certainly redefine the numeric keypad into an inverted cursor T with the gross movement keys immediately above it.
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Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #85 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 09:07:18 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;119566
I thought it was one of the best things since sliced bread when keyboards went from imbedding the cursor movement keys in the numeric keypad and to the inverted T.


I liked it too when the IBM PC keyboard went from having only a combined numeric keypad/cursor pad to having separate ones.

But I used keyboards before the PC that had cursor pads, so the arrangement on the 122-key keyboard seemed the fanciest, and the diamond shape a good compromise, and having left, up in one row, and right, down in the row beneath was another one I was used to.

If the cursor keys are frequently used, though, then, yes, the standard arrangement should be kept so people don't have to keep switching.

At least, if you're willing to allow the arrangement of the Insert/Page Down block to be changed, there are more options.

Offline last-axiom-hero

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« Reply #86 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 10:05:04 »
Greetings to the guys at Geekhack, from a former lurker.

In the last hours I was creating a Keyboard-Layout, and altough it is for german users it might have some features and ideas, you might take into consideration. The Layout is pirated from quadibloc's great homepage, hope you don't mind.


Offline 1839cc

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« Reply #87 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 10:23:44 »
I really like that last one quadibloc. Only change I might make is to cut alt and control down to single space and put Fn on the bottom row. :)
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Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #88 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 10:50:05 »
Quote from: quadibloc;119568
At least, if you're willing to allow the arrangement of the Insert/Page Down block to be changed, there are more options.

Well, like I said: if there are alternate or clear keycaps - or even blanks that I can write on with a Sharpie, I'll redefine the diamond block into an inverted T with the gross movement keys immediately above and the 'lock' keys at the top. And I still think you could cheat some space on the right side by changing the sizes of the right-side keys.

Like so:
Code: [Select]

                +-------+-------+-------+-------+
                | NumLk |PrtScr |ScrlLk |PausBrk|
                |       |       |       |       |
+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+
|   +   |BackSp |       |   /   |   *   |   -   |
|   =   |       | Insert| Home  |PageUp |       |
+-----+------+--+-------+-------+-------+-------+
  {   |  }   |XX|   7   |   8   |   9   |   +   |
  [   |  ]   |XX| Delete|  End  |PageDn |       |
+----++------+--+-------+-------+-------+       |
  "  |  Enter   |   4   |   5   |   6   |       |
  '  |          |       |  UpAr |       |       |
+--+-+----------+-------+-------+-------+-------+
?  |    Shift   |   1   |   2   |   3   |       |
/  |            |  <--  |  DnAr |  -->  |       |
+--+----+-------+-------+-------+-------+       |
| RFunc | RCtrl | 0             |   .   | Enter |
|       |       |               |       |       |
+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+


The "| \" key is going to have to go somewhere. If you make the LShift a regular-size key, then the "| \" can go outboard of the Z (122 key keyboards are this way, with " " outboard of the Z).

This also makes it possible to put the full 12 function keys along the top with Escape by itself to the left. In fact, you might as well since you have all that real estate above the alphanumerics. Or if the F keys were built into the numeric row, you could put the Escape key above the tilde, put in some indicator LEDs next to the lock keys on the right and have room for a logo and a nice pencil tray above the alphanumerics.
« Last Edit: Mon, 21 September 2009, 10:56:45 by Shawn Stanford »
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Offline last-axiom-hero

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« Reply #89 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 11:12:22 »

And there is my latest contribution. The layout around the enter-key can be easily changed, but imho it is an advantage to have an bigger enter-key.

Maybe a list of thoughts that i had while creating this.
  • The inverted-T-Arrow-Layout is common and only few people can live without it.
  • The Del-Key is very useful, an with the placement next to the backspace it gets quite intuitive.
  • The extra-Column of Macro-Keys takes a bit of horizontal space, but it can be so handy to directly have some bigger macros on dedicated keys instead of multimapping others in software.
  • The additional column although allows the Esc-Key to be placed properly, enabling fast ragequiting in games ;)
  • Most of this layout is totally standard, switchers won't have difficulties.
  • Some Keys may miss, but they can be shift-mapped on existing Keys.
  • The slight gaps between the core-field and the outter keys avoids pressing the wrong keys.
« Last Edit: Mon, 21 September 2009, 11:13:03 by last-axiom-hero »

Offline cmr

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« Reply #90 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 11:58:48 »
i cannot even fathom shrinking or moving the backslash key. it's perfect.

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #91 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 12:08:28 »
Okay, here's an ASCII representation of my best shot at a compressed layout with a full numeric keypad. I did end up having to push the backslash key to the left of the Z, and the backspace now takes up what used to be the numeric keypad NumLock. But, other than that the keys mapped more or less where they are now. And, of course, there's the blank area at the top which can be filled with either the F keys or left empty.

Code: [Select]

+-----+                                                                         +-----+-----+-----+-----+
| Esc |                                                                         |PrtSc|SrcLk|PauBr|NumLk|
|     |                                                                         |     |     |     |     |
+-----+                                                                         +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-------+-----+-----+-----+
|  `  |  1  |  2  |  3  |  4  |  5  |  6  |  7  |  8  |  9  |  0  |  -  |  =  |BackSp |  /  |  *  |  -  |
|     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |       |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-------+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+
|  TAB  |  Q  |  W  |  E  |  R  |  T  |  Y  |  U  |  I  |  O  |  P  |  [  |  ]  |  7  |  8  |  9  |  +  |
|       |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |
+-------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-------+-----+-----+-----+     |
|CapLk|  '  |  A  |  S  |  D  |  F  |  G  |  H  |  J  |  K  |  L  |  ;  | Enter |  4  |  5  |  6  |     |
|     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |       |     |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-------+-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+--+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----------+-----+-----+-----+-----+
| Shift  |  /  |  Z  |  X  |  C  |  V  |  B  |  N  |  M  |  ,  |  .  |  Shift   |  1  |  2  |  3  |     |
|        |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |          |     |     |     |     |
+-----+--+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----------+-----+-----+-----+     |
+-----+-----+-----+-------------------------------------------+-----+-----+-----+-----------+-----+     |
| Alt | Fun | Ctl |                                           | Alt | Fun | Ctl |     0     |  .  |     |
|     |     |     |                                           |     |     |     |           |     |Enter|
+-----+-----+-----+-------------------------------------------+-----+-----+-----+-----------+-----+-----+
« Last Edit: Mon, 21 September 2009, 12:29:42 by Shawn Stanford »
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Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #92 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 12:28:45 »
And here's my best shot at a compressed layout without a separate numeric keypad, but with an inverted T and the movement/edit keys. Although it would have been easy enough to leave the keys next to the Up key on the 'T', I chose to delete them for clarity's sake.

Code: [Select]

+-----+                                                                                 +-----+-----+
| Esc |                                                                               |PrtSc|ScrLk|
|     |                                                                               |     |     |
+-----+                                                                               +-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-------+ +-----+-----+
|  `  |  1  |  2  |  3  |  4  |  5  |  6  |  7  |  8  |  9  |  0  |  -  |  =  |BackSp | |PauBr|NumLk|
|     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |       | |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-------+ +-----+-----+
+-----+-+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+
|  TAB  |  Q  |  W  |  E  |  R  |  T  |  Y  |  U  |  I  |  O  |  P  |  [  |  ]  | | Ins |Home |PgUp |
|       |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     | |     |     |     |
+-------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-------+ +-----+-----+-----+
|CapLk|  '  |  A  |  S  |  D  |  F  |  G  |  H  |  J  |  K  |  L  |  ;  | Enter | | Del | End |PgDn |
|     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |       | |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-------+ +-----+-----+-----+
+-----+--+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----------+       +-----+      
| Shift  |  /  |  Z  |  X  |  C  |  V  |  B  |  N  |  M  |  ,  |  .  |  Shift   |       | UpAr|      
|        |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |          |       |     |      
+-----+--+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+----------+       +-----+      
+-----+-----+-----+-------------------------------------------+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+
| Alt | Fun | Ctl |                                           | Alt | Fun | Ctl | | <-  | DnAr|  -> |
|     |     |     |                                           |     |     |     | |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-------------------------------------------+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+
« Last Edit: Mon, 21 September 2009, 12:31:35 by Shawn Stanford »
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Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #93 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 12:37:30 »
Quote from: last-axiom-hero;119581
And there is my latest contribution. The layout around the enter-key can be easily changed, but imho it is an advantage to have an bigger enter-key.
Quote


I agree with that, but I also insist on the shift keys, the backspace key, and the enter key being as reachable as on the U.S. layout. If one meets that constraint, and also has a larger enter key than in the U.S. layout, {[ and }] have to be moved, and that is painful because it is desirable to have them horizontally adjacent. Moving |\ and/or ~` doesn't create that issue.

These keys can be moved, and the extra key on the internatiional keyboard added, while keeping a comfortable layout by U.S. standards, though, and many of the designs on my web site attempt this, such as:

Show Image

Offline Rajagra

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« Reply #94 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 13:15:14 »
Quote from: cmr;119583
i cannot even fathom shrinking or moving the backslash key. it's perfect.


Do you mean the ANSI layout, where you have to move your pinkie over two inches to reach the backslash? That's the one part of the ANSI style that I hate.

Offline quadibloc

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« Reply #95 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 13:24:41 »
Quote from: Shawn Stanford;119586
I did end up having to push the backslash key to the left of the Z,


It looks like you moved the regular slash, the one from the ?/ key, to the left of the Z. Now that is something I cannot fathom. Thus, the I-Rocks keyboard that moved ?/ to the far side of the shift... well, that might work for gaming, but not for typing.

Offline cmr

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« Reply #96 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 13:55:08 »
Quote from: Rajagra;119594
Do you mean the ANSI layout, where you have to move your pinkie over two inches to reach the backslash? That's the one part of the ANSI style that I hate.


oh come on, it's just like hitting enter!

i've tried the other positions. for typing backslashes and tabs nothing is as fast. if i were going to move it anywhere, i'd dump the braces and brackets and move it to the left, occupying that whole space.

non-ANSI layouts seem to treat the backslash/pipe key as some kind of weird, uncommon key.  it's not!

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #97 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 14:16:26 »
Quote from: quadibloc;119596
It looks like you moved the regular slash, the one from the ?/ key, to the left of the Z. Now that is something I cannot fathom. Thus, the I-Rocks keyboard that moved ?/ to the far side of the shift... well, that might work for gaming, but not for typing.

Sorry, yes, the slash key (/ ?) and the quotes key (' ") were moved to the left. Admittedly, this might be a big issue - especially the quotes key. But, it's not my fault that they piled up all those special keys to the right of the keyboard! There are three keys to the right of the home row and only one to the left; what's up with that?

Okay, here's another try, putting the \ and the quotes back where they belong. I had to put the backslash key next to the A, and I moved the tic/tilde next to the Z and pushed the ESC key to the top row in its place. This is a shorter board, and just a tad wider.
Code: [Select]

+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+
| Esc |  1  |  2  |  3  |  4  |  5  |  6  |  7  |  8  |  9  |  0  |  -  |  =  |BkSp | |PrtSc|ScrLk|PauBr|
|     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     | |     |NumLk| |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+---+ +-----+-----+-----+
|  TAB  |  Q  |  W  |  E  |  R  |  T  |  Y  |  U  |  I  |  O  |  P  |  [  |  ]  |   | | Ins |Home |PgUp |
|       |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |   | |     |     |     |
+-------+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+   + +-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-+   + +-----+-----+-----+
|CapLk|  \  |  A  |  S  |  D  |  F  |  G  |  H  |  J  |  K  |  L  |  ;  |  '  |     | | Del | End |PgDn |    
|     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |Enter| |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+    
+-----+--+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+--------+       +-----+          
| Shift  |  `  |  Z  |  X  |  C  |  V  |  B  |  N  |  M  |  ,  |  .  |  /  | Shift  |       | UpAr|          
|        |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |     |        |       |     |          
+-----+--+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+-----+--------+       +-----+          
+-----+-----+-----+-----------------------------------------------+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+    
| Alt | Fun | Ctl |                                               | Ctl | Alt | Fun | | <-  | DnAr|  -> |    
|     |     |     |                                               |     |     |     | |     |     |     |    
+-----+-----+-----+-----------------------------------------------+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+

I suppose the convenient thing about this one is that with the addition of one more key on the right, you can replicate the numeric keypad and keep either the diamond or inverted T.
« Last Edit: Mon, 21 September 2009, 14:21:55 by Shawn Stanford »
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Offline TheSoulhunter

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« Reply #98 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 14:22:43 »
My try...
Yes, I like symmetry.

Offline Shawn Stanford

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« Reply #99 on: Mon, 21 September 2009, 14:30:24 »
Here's my thoughts on the numeric keypad for the right-side of the five-row board I described.
Code: [Select]

Numeric Keypad:           Classic Diamond:          Inverted T.
+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
|PrtSc|ScrLk|PauBr|  /  | |PrtSc|ScrLk|PauBr|     | |PrtSc|ScrLk|PauBr|     |
|     |NumLk|     |     | |     |NumLk|     |     | |     |NumLk|     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
|  7  |  8  |  9  |  *  | |Home |UpAr |PgUp |     | | Ins |Home |PgUp |     |
|     |     |     |     | |     |     |     |     | |     |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
|  4  |  5  |  6  |  -  | | <-  |     |  -> |     | | Del | End |PgDn |     |
|     |     |     |     | |     |     |     |     | |     |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
|  1  |  2  |  3  |  +  | | End |DnAr |PgDn |     | |     |UpAr |     |     |
|     |     |     |     | |     |     |     |     | |     |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
|  0  |     |  .  |Enter| | Ins |     | Del |Enter| |  <- |DnAr | ->  |Enter|
|     |     |     |     | |     |     |     |     | |     |     |     |     |
+-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+ +-----+-----+-----+-----+
« Last Edit: Mon, 21 September 2009, 14:34:33 by Shawn Stanford »
The Brat Prince of COBOL