[GB] F104+SSK+122+62+77+50+Ergo orders now open! Kishsaver+Industrial Model F

[sam123456]

I'm excited to see the dye sub progress. I decided that when I ordered one, I would order two sets of your keycaps and just not worry about the timing. After seeing how rigorous your standards are, I'm glad I did!

I'm just curious about one thing: what are the f-keys for? I didn't think you were selling any keyboards with an f row... did I miss something?

[Ellipse]

Yep sam that is a good idea to get a spare key set because the key tops wear down after a few years of usage.  Check out the project web site blog to see an example of my original IBM F122 keys before and after a few years of usage.

The key sets for this project are full and include Function keys etc. so that they can be used on other buckling spring keyboards (Model M, original Model F).  Everyone ordering a key set gets the full set instead of just 62/77 keys.

[sam123456]

Yep sam that is a good idea to get a spare key set because the key tops wear down after a few years of usage.  Check out the project web site blog to see an example of my original IBM F122 keys before and after a few years of usage.

The key sets for this project are full and include Function keys etc. so that they can be used on other buckling spring keyboards (Model M, original Model F).  Everyone ordering a key set gets the full set instead of just 62/77 keys.

Very nice! I just assumed I'd get 77 keys per set, but that's a pretty nice added bonus.

I'll be honest, I wasn't really thinking of longevity when I bought two sets of keys. I just love the Industrial SSK color scheme with the grey body, white alphas, and blue other keys. But thank you for helping me rationalize my purchase!

[Ellipse]

Dye sublimation update:  now that the alignment results have improved significantly as shown in an earlier post (but are not yet to spec), the factory is finalizing the design of what will hopefully be the production jig next week, and the jig should be completed in the next couple weeks.  I have ordered the (very costly) dye sub equipment for the factory (previously the factory was paying to use another factory's machines for R&D purposes) which should finish production and be delivered in about two weeks. 

Reminder from my recent months' blog posts:  while we wait for sublimation of the keys to finish, the “separate shipping” option is still available for you to request.  This option allows your keyboard to ship in the coming weeks instead of waiting further.  The only keyboards that are not going out are those who prefer delivery all at once (e.g. if they do not have extra Model M / Model F / Unicomp keyboards to borrow keys from) and those whose keyboards are in the second of two container shipments of the early bird round, now expected to arrive end of January or early February.  The cost is typically between $10 and $20 for the separate shipping option. Contact me over email with your order number to request separate shipping and I will see if you're eligible.  There is also a newly added option:  you can substitute the keys you ordered for unprinted pearl/pebble keys, or order an extra set of unprinted pearl/pebble keys if you would prefer to stay with brand new Model F keycaps.

[reavy]

Are there any videos of how industrial-scale dye sublimation works? The only videos I have found online so far are small dye sub printers (for t-shirts?) and DIY custom keycaps printed with ink and steam irons. Sorry if this has been covered before.

[online]

I just stumble on this and it seems too good to miss this!
I only tried buckling spring keyboard once at a meetup, so I don't know much about it. I've skimmed through posts to get the info, but still have some questions need clearing out.

1. Is the board comes with dye-sub keycaps that are in development?
2. Is the controller has USB-C or Micro USB receptacle?
3. What's the lead time If I place an order today?
4. I know QMK is in beta atm, but does it support most of the functionalities? Particularly tap-hold keys? I use spacebar as a tap-hold layer key, which is important to me as I've got used to accessing the shortcut for the software I use for work.
5. Finally, can someone check my order list? I'm a bit confused about what to order for F62 Model F with solenoids. (I'm in for the loudest click that MX can't give me. )

[Ellipse]

Great online, glad you are joining the project!  Kindly see my replies below:

1.  Yes
2.  It has micro USB most likely (some keyboards have USB-C). 
3.  Please email me to confirm lead times.
4.  Please contact Deskthority user pandrew to confirm QMK details.
5.  Your order looks good!

[online]

Great online, glad you are joining the project!  Kindly see my replies below:

1.  Yes
2.  It has micro USB most likely (some keyboards have USB-C). 
3.  Please email me to confirm lead times.
4.  Please contact Deskthority user pandrew to confirm QMK details.
5.  Your order looks good!

Thanks for answering the questions! Just placed an order. 

[Quarzac]

Quick question, as my account returns from the dead- is there any estimated ship date for orders placed today? I've been using a model F for a while, but have struggled with 2 key rollover, so when I found this, I was interested, but if it's gonna take literal years, it may not be worth it, since who knows if I'll still be living where I do today.

[Ellipse]

For all questions on lead time please do email me or PM me with the specifics of what you are looking to order and I will check the inventory.

Some special inventory items, looking at my list:
I have to double check this but as of now I think I have one unclaimed keyboard with black unprinted keys installed:  F62 Industrial Gray, split shift and split backspace.  This is the last black key set that can ship for the next couple months.  The rest of the blue, black, and dark gray sets will be here in a couple months.

I also have F62 Beige, ANSI Enter and Split Backspace with Pearl/Pebble unprinted keys installed

And F77 Beige with Split Shift and 2U backspace with Pearl/Pebble unprinted keys installed

First come first served so please do double check with me before ordering if you would prefer not to wait.

[yuejia]

That‘s so cool! I like it!!!

[Ellipse]

I have just posted the December update on the project web site - check it out for the latest status summary!

https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/

[DrivenKeys]

I think this is my favorite tech purchase since my first car. My old M finally gets to sit back a relax its faded keys, and I'm supporting a true passion project. Many thanks to Ellipse, this is a dream come true I didn't know I had been waiting for.

[yuejia]

That‘s so cool! I like it!!!

[Ellipse]

The second container shipment is finally on its way!  Due to the significant increase in container shipping volume in recent months, this shipment is expected to take longer than the first one.  It's expected to arrive and be delivered in late February.

Here are photos of the goods ready to be picked up and the truck being loaded.  Unfortunately there is no photo of everything loaded up, just the "in progress" photos were taken.

[funkmon]

I posted on the deskthority forum as well, but I just want to say publicly here, my main keyboard forum, that the F77 was a fantastic buy, and my new favourite Model F, even more than the XT which I've been maining now for a few months. I don't think I could do with even a single key less than this, however. I don't know how you Kishsaver folk do it.

Anyway, a think I don't like is the QMK firmware. I do appreciate that it was completely plug and play, it just worked, but it was difficult to set my own layout. I couldn't use their configurator tool online, it never let me download the firmware, so I couldn't make my dumbass modifications needed, mostly for the numpad, but to also add a few function keys I consider necessary for the first layer. So, I flashed xwhatsit back on there, and now life is good.

[Ellipse]

Great funkmon; glad your keyboard arrived safely and is working well!

As a note for everyone, the QMK Model F firmware is still in beta and is not yet part of the official QMK to my knowledge, so everyone who wants to update their QMK layouts should send a PM to pandrew on Deskthority to request access to the beta. This is only required if you want to change something - the keyboards come preprogrammed.

[funkmon]

Great funkmon; glad your keyboard arrived safely and is working well!

As a note for everyone, the QMK Model F firmware is still in beta and is not yet part of the official QMK to my knowledge, so everyone who wants to update their QMK layouts should send a PM to pandrew to request access to the beta. This is only required if you want to change something - the keyboards come preprogrammed.

Ahh that makes sense. I somehow totally forgot to do that, even though I read it. I am dumb. Oh well! I'm an old guy so I need to do old guy stuff like use old firmware that isn't as good.

[pchatterjee]

All I received my F77 and it's working great.  I have the top left key as the "ESC" button.  Normally this would have a place for the Tilde key.  Is there a way to get that to register through some combo of shift, cntl, etc on this type keyboard layout?

[Ellipse]

Great pchatterjee, glad your keyboard arrived OK!

Yes, the factory default is ~ ` as the function layer of the top left key (Esc).  Press Fn+Esc for ` and Fn+Shift+Esc for ~.  Fn is defaulted to the right ctrl key on the non-HHKB layouts and the 1U key to the right of the HHKB style split right shift key.

Everyone can see the full default layout and function layers as it has been added to each of the 4 product pages - example https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f77-model-f-keyboard/

[pchatterjee]

Great pchatterjee, glad your keyboard arrived OK!

Yes, the factory default is ~ ` as the function layer of the top left key (Esc).  Press Fn+Esc for ` and Fn+Shift+Esc for ~.  Fn is defaulted to the right ctrl key on the non-HHKB layouts and the 1U key to the right of the HHKB style split right shift key.

Everyone can see the full default layout and function layers as it has been added to each of the 4 product pages - example https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/product/f77-model-f-keyboard/

Awesome that worked Ellipse!  Love the keyboard and the grey pantone color came out really nice with the white keys!

[Ellipse]

Any recommendations on removing stuck new Model F stabilizer inserts, outside of opening up the keyboard to push it out?  These are more solidly secured in the barrels and tougher to remove than original inserts.  Maybe hand / non-electric drilling and pulling out the drill+insert might work but it is risky that it would go too far.

I was imagining that some kind of pliers tool was out there where squeezing the pliers would slightly expand and allow a tighter grip on the inside of the stabilizer insert.  The straight tip lock ring / snap ring pliers I looked at might work if they are small enough:

https://www.amazon.com/SK-Tools-SKT-7635-Straight-Pliers/dp/B00061SMZI/
https://www.amazon.com/Wilde-Tool-G407-B-Straight-Pliers/dp/B00HRY1UEW/
https://www.amazon.com/Wilde-Tool-G407-NP-Straight-Pliers/dp/B08GYKSBZW/
https://www.amazon.com/Lang-Tools-KAS1407-Straight-Pliers/dp/B07PDGYXJ9/
https://www.amazon.com/JONNESWAY-AI040006-STRAIGHT-REMOVING-INSTALLING/dp/B08D9T9519/

[rwiker]

Any recommendations on removing stuck new Model F stabilizer inserts, outside of opening up the keyboard to push it out?  These are more solidly secured in the barrels and tougher to remove than original inserts.  Maybe hand / non-electric drilling and pulling out the drill+insert might work but it is risky that it would go too far.

I was imagining that some kind of pliers tool was out there where squeezing the pliers would slightly expand and allow a tighter grip on the inside of the stabilizer insert.  The straight tip lock ring / snap ring pliers I looked at might work if they are small enough:

When I got my F77, I didn't realise that the stabiliser inserts were actually different and not just different colours, so ended up using the wrong stabiliser for the "Enter" key. That didn't work too well... I looked at various pliers, but in the end I just used a wood screw of appropriate size. I placed the screw inside the stabiliser, turned it a few times and pulled the screw and stabiliser out with a pair of pliers.

Thanks, by the way - I have used Model Ms almost exclusively for 25 years, and thought they were the absolute pinnacle of keyboards. My Model F has thoroughly disabused me of that notion!

[Ellipse]

Thanks rwiker; I have updated the project manual with your suggestion.

[Ellipse]

The container shipment is at sea now and on its way! It is expected to arrive by the end of February.

darkcruix over on the Deskthority project thread posted detailed setup instructions to add LEDs to the new Model F keyboards.  https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?p=477571#p477571

The xwhatsit controller (whether with xwhatsit or QMK firmware) allows you to have both a solenoid and LEDs at the same time.

[directheatedtriode]

Whenever this thread gets bumped I once again get tempted.

Does anyone care to comment how the switch weighting is compared to vintage Model Fs? I had one XT and I was finding myself getting rather fatigued on it after about 30 minutes of use which is quite low for me- ie I can put up with 55g Topre and SKCM blue all day. I've even used vint black stock springs for a few days while waiting for lighter springs.

Like could the switches in my Model F XT that I no longer have somehow gotten stiffer due to age?

[Maledicted]

Whenever this thread gets bumped I once again get tempted.

Does anyone care to comment how the switch weighting is compared to vintage Model Fs? I had one XT and I was finding myself getting rather fatigued on it after about 30 minutes of use which is quite low for me- ie I can put up with 55g Topre and SKCM blue all day. I've even used vint black stock springs for a few days while waiting for lighter springs.

Like could the switches in my Model F XT that I no longer have somehow gotten stiffer due to age?

That seems odd to me. I'm typing on an original F107 right now. I'm usually a pretty heavy-handed typist, but the Model M (in the past) had always been too fatiguing for me. I can't stand MX blacks for long periods, but don't mind most stiff clickies like the box navies. I always find SKCM blue to be a lot stiffer and harder to get accustomed to whenever I randomly switch boards (I do that a lot) than most switches, even though they're wonderful switches. 55g Topre doesn't seem heavy to me.

The Model F always felt so light to me. The tactility is even very subdued, it seems to me to just be the way that the resistance of the spring stacks just before it buckles that makes it seem very tactile. I first discovered the joys of capacitive buckling spring with the F XT (untouched through the ages, and still is besides replacing the cable). I found the layout unusable, so I moved on to multiple F ATs (since why only have one in a single place I may be typing out of many?). Long story short, I have a lot of time into typing on various F AT variants. This F107 is the only one that's been restored, by a previous owner. The 4704-based keyboards (all of those in Zinc chassis) actually seem a tiny bit lighter to me than the others (including my new production F77). All of my F ATs and F XTs are buttery smooth and light, regardless of how terrible they may or may not look inside (I haven't even opened them all). I literally went straight from Cherry MX blue to capacitive buckling spring without any problem, and Cherry MX blue feels like there's not even any resistance at all to me these days.

Ż\_(ツ)_/Ż

[reavy]

My Model F XT feels lighter than my New Model Fs. I have a Model F 3178 keyboard that feels stiffer than the New Model F keyboards. The only consistency I have observed is in the New Model Fs, which all feel reasonably consistent to me. Of course these were all manufactured at close to the same time and likely with the same tooling for each. Since we’re still waiting on printed keys, though, I haven’t used the new Model Fs as extensively as my other keyboards.

W.r.t. Model Ms, I have found those to be incredibly inconsistent from one unit to the next. Between vintage Model Ms and various Unicomps I have used, no two keyboards are even close to the same in feel and key press weight.

Same goes for Topre. I used to buy one for home and one for the office with each model I tried, and they were never the same. This used to drive me to distraction (I often thought something was wrong with a keyboard because it felt so different from the previous unit of the same model I used) until I gave up and accepted these variances.

All this to say that a sample size of one doesn’t seem good enough to make an informed decision or predict what your experience will be like. Even with modern manufacturing, there still seems to be a high level of variance between individual units, batches, production lines, times of day, phases of the moon, astrological conditions, etc.

Edited to add: The other consistency with all the nice keyboards I have used is that my family and coworkers hate me for using them. The only keyboard I can get away with using everywhere is a Realforce Type S, which is a “perfectly just O.K. keyboard.”

[Maledicted]

My Model F XT feels lighter than my New Model Fs. I have a Model F 3178 keyboard that feels stiffer than the New Model F keyboards. The only consistency I have observed is in the New Model Fs, which all feel reasonably consistent to me. Of course these were all manufactured at close to the same time and likely with the same tooling for each. Since we’re still waiting on printed keys, though, I haven’t used the new Model Fs as extensively as my other keyboards.

W.r.t. Model Ms, I have found those to be incredibly inconsistent from one unit to the next. Between vintage Model Ms and various Unicomps I have used, no two keyboards are even close to the same in feel and key press weight.

Same goes for Topre. I used to buy one for home and one for the office with each model I tried, and they were never the same. This used to drive me to distraction (I often thought something was wrong with a keyboard because it felt so different from the previous unit of the same model I used) until I gave up and accepted these variances.

All this to say that a sample size of one doesn’t seem good enough to make an informed decision or predict what your experience will be like. Even with modern manufacturing, there still seems to be a high level of variance between individual units, batches, production lines, times of day, phases of the moon, astrological conditions, etc.

Edited to add: The other consistency with all the nice keyboards I have used is that my family and coworkers hate me for using them. The only keyboard I can get away with using everywhere is a Realforce Type S, which is a “perfectly just O.K. keyboard.”

Do any seem heavy though? I think there's a very minimal difference between my ATs and my XT, and a minimal difference between all of those and my two 4704 boards, one old and one new. I wouldn't be able to tell the difference if I hadn't at least used two of those separate types very recently though. I may even need to have them side by side. None of them seem heavy at all to me and never have. I always got this sense that they even seem too light for the perceived tactility.

[rknize]

I think that keyboard mileage is also a factor.  This Lexmark M that I am typing on now was pretty stiff when I bought it new in 1994.  I was comparing it to the well-used IBM Ms that I was using in some of the old computer labs at school at the time.  I used this keyboard all through college and then brought it to work where it became my work keyboard for well over a decade.  I own several over M's of various vintages as well as some Unicomps.  This keyboard is the softest of the Ms that I own, but is still stiffer than any of my Model Fs.

[Ellipse]

My Model F XT feels lighter than my New Model Fs. I have a Model F 3178 keyboard that feels stiffer than the New Model F keyboards. The only consistency I have observed is in the New Model Fs, which all feel reasonably consistent to me. Of course these were all manufactured at close to the same time and likely with the same tooling for each. Since we’re still waiting on printed keys, though, I haven’t used the new Model Fs as extensively as my other keyboards.

W.r.t. Model Ms, I have found those to be incredibly inconsistent from one unit to the next. Between vintage Model Ms and various Unicomps I have used, no two keyboards are even close to the same in feel and key press weight.

Same goes for Topre. I used to buy one for home and one for the office with each model I tried, and they were never the same. This used to drive me to distraction (I often thought something was wrong with a keyboard because it felt so different from the previous unit of the same model I used) until I gave up and accepted these variances.

All this to say that a sample size of one doesn’t seem good enough to make an informed decision or predict what your experience will be like. Even with modern manufacturing, there still seems to be a high level of variance between individual units, batches, production lines, times of day, phases of the moon, astrological conditions, etc.

Edited to add: The other consistency with all the nice keyboards I have used is that my family and coworkers hate me for using them. The only keyboard I can get away with using everywhere is a Realforce Type S, which is a “perfectly just O.K. keyboard.”

Do any seem heavy though? I think there's a very minimal difference between my ATs and my XT, and a minimal difference between all of those and my two 4704 boards, one old and one new. I wouldn't be able to tell the difference if I hadn't at least used two of those separate types very recently though. I may even need to have them side by side. None of them seem heavy at all to me and never have. I always got this sense that they even seem too light for the perceived tactility.

Interestingly, I've come across a number of reports indicating that the new Model F's key forces are even lighter than those of the original Model F keyboards.  Agreed on the sample variations, even among IBM Model F keyboards.  User comments, including those mentioning the lightness, are in the mix of links I posted aggregating the various new Model F reviews and photos:  https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/brand-new-model-f-keyboards-may-update/

I think the smoothness of the new Model F components has something to do with it and makes the experience seem even better than a comparable keyboard key with a similar force weighting.  Even if you are used to typing on a lighter keyboard, I think you can easily get used to the new Model F's smoothness even if your one original Model F sample was not optimal after 35+ years.

[reavy]

Do any seem heavy though?

None of my Model F variants, vintage or new, seem heavy compared to any other keyboard I have used. In my experience, the Model Fs are the lightest touch. Mass and weight-wise, they're very heavy, ha ha. So directheatedtriode's experience does seem strange to me compared to my own experience, but it's also totally believable.

[reavy]

I think that keyboard mileage is also a factor.  This Lexmark M that I am typing on now was pretty stiff when I bought it new in 1994.  I was comparing it to the well-used IBM Ms that I was using in some of the old computer labs at school at the time.  I used this keyboard all through college and then brought it to work where it became my work keyboard for well over a decade.  I own several over M's of various vintages as well as some Unicomps.  This keyboard is the softest of the Ms that I own, but is still stiffer than any of my Model Fs.

My ancient IBM Model M is the stiffest of my Model Ms. I have a Unicomp manufactured in 2008 (my favorite, before the layout change), that is stiff-ish but well broken in. I have two newer Unicomps that were manufactured on the same date but have totally different sounds, smoothness, and stiffness from each other.

I think there is some evidence that the membrane material stiffens over time. If anyone can comment on that, it would be interesting.

Anecdotally, I think that the Topre rubber domes stiffen over time. I have also noticed some variation based on the ambient temperature in the room where I'm working, a la the Challenger disaster. I would think that the Model Fs would be totally immune to this kind of behavior with the exception of some material property changes of the springs with temperature.

[directheatedtriode]

I really appreciate all the recent feedback.

To add some more to my post - with my XT I believe it was the initial tactile bump pressure that was what was causing my fatigue as they would collapse rapidly and with ease once that was overcome. At the time I did many searches and found very, very few people that seemed to have the same issue as me though a handful on Deskthority did say it was the heaviest switch he used, heavier than others like Topre 55 and Cherry MX Clear. The spacebar on my XT was also no doubt causing some of that thumb fatigue as well but I guess that is understandable with that massive spacebar and hitting it towards the edge of the bar.

Physically the board was in excellent condition but I never opened it up and one of the F keys was missing a spring. So that fatigue along with the missing spring and knowing I didn't have a perfectly functioning board caused me to sell it quickly. I did love the way it felt to type on. I regularly used a Model M 20 years earlier at a friend's house whose dad had all Model Ms for all their computers and no doubt I do recall that being more fatiguing to type on than the Model F XT.

On my comment on the vint blacks - my daily use one is from a NOS Cherry board board with switches so smooth they feel factory lubed, for some reason even with stock springs it feels lighter than any vint black from WYSE terminals... probably because every WYSE terminal I've harvested switches from has junk sandpaper switches making them feel heavy. But even having said that I do not use those with stock springs they have been swapped with Sprits.

[directheatedtriode]

Do any seem heavy though?

None of my Model F variants, vintage or new, seem heavy compared to any other keyboard I have used. In my experience, the Model Fs are the lightest touch. Mass and weight-wise, they're very heavy, ha ha. So directheatedtriode's experience does seem strange to me compared to my own experience, but it's also totally believable.

Do you mind listing some other switches that you find heavier, roughly similar and lighter than your new Model F? Just to give me some context. I've used nearly every Cherry and Alps switch and both Topre weights. I just don't have experience with the rare and exotic switches.

[mode]

Whenever this thread gets bumped I once again get tempted.

Does anyone care to comment how the switch weighting is compared to vintage Model Fs? I had one XT and I was finding myself getting rather fatigued on it after about 30 minutes of use which is quite low for me- ie I can put up with 55g Topre and SKCM blue all day. I've even used vint black stock springs for a few days while waiting for lighter springs.

Like could the switches in my Model F XT that I no longer have somehow gotten stiffer due to age?

My wife has both an F122 and an F77 and they feel very similar, both are a little heavier than blue alps, between blue and pine white imo.

[Maledicted]

I really appreciate all the recent feedback.

No problem. There are a lot of Model F fanatics, so you'll have no shortage of it.

To add some more to my post - with my XT I believe it was the initial tactile bump pressure that was what was causing my fatigue as they would collapse rapidly and with ease once that was overcome. At the time I did many searches and found very, very few people that seemed to have the same issue as me though a handful on Deskthority did say it was the heaviest switch he used, heavier than others like Topre 55 and Cherry MX Clear. The spacebar on my XT was also no doubt causing some of that thumb fatigue as well but I guess that is understandable with that massive spacebar and hitting it towards the edge of the bar.

That's interesting. I always considered the tactile event misleading in its level of tactility. If you hover just around the point where the spring buckles, there's only the lightest of bumps when it does, although the corresponding drop in required pressure is also dramatic. I never got the impression that it took much effort to cause the spring to buckle either, although the pressure required to continue depressing the key ramps up rapidly before it does so. Maybe this comes down to typing style, somehow. Capacitive buckling spring certainly seems much lighter to me than what the Input Club measured:

IBM Buckling Spring, Capacitive

Style
   
Tactile, Clicky
Manufacturer   IBM
Community Name   Model F
Stem Color   Black
Actuation Force   Heavy
Tactile Method   Buckling Spring
LED Styles   None
Tactile Peak Force   ~76 gf
Actuation Force   
Bottom-Out Force   ~69 gf
Spring Force   
Overall travel   ~4.1mm
Tactile event   ~2.7mm
Actuation   
Cross-point   Capacitive PCB

Interestingly, they put the bottom out force of membrane buckling spring only 2 grams higher than that of capacitive, and a whole 8 grams lighter at the point of actuation.

I don't have a huge amount of time with typing on 55g Topre, and I don't believe I have any MX clear boards (just loose switches). I have spent at least a few hours playing with my Realforce though. I never got the impression that 55g Topre was particularly heavy. Heavier than most conventional modern rubber domes, but not excessively so. I could try to compare tonight, but I would peg 55g Topre as heavier than capacitive buckling spring offhand, at least the way that I perceive it.

On my comment on the vint blacks - my daily use one is from a NOS Cherry board board with switches so smooth they feel factory lubed, for some reason even with stock springs it feels lighter than any vint black from WYSE terminals... probably because every WYSE terminal I've harvested switches from has junk sandpaper switches making them feel heavy. But even having said that I do not use those with stock springs they have been swapped with Sprits.

I haven't noticed much difference between any of the MX black switches I have. I have brand new switches from surplus boards manufactured at random points in the past 20 years or so, and "vintage" blacks. Mine have all been indistinguishable from each other in terms of feel. Input Club also has graphs and measurements on MX blacks. That puts them roughly around the same as buckling spring (at least in their testing), but slightly heavier overall considering there's no drop in pressure. For me, for whatever reason, I don't seem to mind heavy clickies or tactiles nearly as much as heavy linears. MX clears seem to be rated by them to be the heaviest of the ones you've mentioned, in their testing. They don't seem to have tested Topre. They also tested box navies to be a lot lighter than I would have thought, lighter even than capacitive buckling spring. If for nothing else, the graphs should shed some insight though. A lot of switches people perceive to be very heavy either have no tactile event at all, or stiffen very suddenly before the tactile event.

Do any seem heavy though?

None of my Model F variants, vintage or new, seem heavy compared to any other keyboard I have used. In my experience, the Model Fs are the lightest touch. Mass and weight-wise, they're very heavy, ha ha. So directheatedtriode's experience does seem strange to me compared to my own experience, but it's also totally believable.

Do you mind listing some other switches that you find heavier, roughly similar and lighter than your new Model F? Just to give me some context. I've used nearly every Cherry and Alps switch and both Topre weights. I just don't have experience with the rare and exotic switches.

What do you consider to be rare or exotic? It is hard to compare capacitive buckling spring to much of anything 1:1 because of how unique it is. I perceive capacitive buckling spring to be very light. It seems to me that I end up needing a lot of practice to move from it to heavier switches if I use it exclusively for some time as well, particularly to SKCM blues. I have less of a tough time moving between capacitive buckling spring and lighter MX switches like reds and blues (since these are the only MX switches I use routinely).

If you want specific comparisons to some common switches, let me know and I can compare my new F77 to it if I have a board that contains them nearby tonight.

[Ellipse]

Thanks Maledicted, good notes on the force not entirely a matter of the grams weight required to press the key.

Dye sublimation update:

We finally have some approvable key sets!  See the below example - please note some keys have been slightly cut off in the photo.  And the photo was taken with a camera, not a scanner, so there may be some distortion.

I hope the below key set will be representative of the new Model F sets going out to everyone.  The alignment is within the original IBM Model F tolerances I have personally seen from dozens of originals I have collected / restored over the years.  The most salient note to the factory is the Print Screen type keys which are a little too close for comfort to the edge but I would not be exchanging someone's keys or key sets if in general they match what IBM deemed acceptable on a sold product; see my 11/10/20 post for more details - one paragraph copied below:

"Some keys will always be slightly out of alignment tolerance - even so with IBM - so the goal is not perfection. According to my digital caliper measurements of an excellent, probably 90th+ percentile IBM XT keyboard example with outstanding sublimation quality, 24% of its keys aligned out of the bounds of the standard deviation (an amazingly tiny 0.15mm!). IBM's out of bounds on this set ranged up from 0.18mm to 0.46mm variance from the average alignment of the key set (still excellent results). As I've seen having owned and refurbed dozens of F's over the years, the standard deviation was far larger / looser on many of the other, later production units."



If all goes well the factory is going to try to make a small number of sets of US ANSI, Apple/Mac, and HHKB 6 key and send them to me before Chinese New Year break.  That way I can start getting orders out. 

To keep things simple I am not going to accept shipping requests for the keys and cannot answer questions of "is my keyboard in this key set batch" (please don't ask!), though everyone can still continue to request separate shipping without keys.  Everything will go out in priority order, putting at top of the list the single digit serials, early bird tooling volunteers, and custom/low serial orders in order of the date of your first keyboard ordered.  With current production estimates there will be no remaining sets in the first batch for other keyboards.  In keeping with policies over the past year, your order cannot go out if even one item cannot ship. 

Also now that the second container shipment is on its way, beginning in March you can start to request separate shipment without keys for a wider variety of keyboards.  Below is a list of the keyboards expected to be received as part of the second container shipment, arriving around the end of February:

 Product Name  Color                 Layout                                          Keys
        Compact F62   Black                 ANSI Enter                                      Black unprinted keys
        Compact F62   Black                 ANSI Enter
        Compact F62   Black                 ANSI Enter                                      Pearl+pebble blank keys
        Compact F62   Black                 ISO Enter                                       Black unprinted keys
        Compact F62   Black                 ISO Enter
        Compact F62   Black                 Split Right Shift and Split Backspace           Black unprinted keys
        Compact F62   Black                 Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
        Compact F62   Black                 Split Right Shift and Split Backspace           Pearl+pebble blank keys
        Compact F62   Black                 Split Right Shift and 2U backspace              Black unprinted keys
        Compact F62   Black                 Split Right Shift and 2U backspace              Pearl+pebble blank keys
        Compact F62   Black                 Split Right Shift and 2U backspace and short spacBlack unprinted keys
        Compact F62   Carolina Blue         Split Right Shift and Split Backspace           Pearl+pebble blank keys
        Compact F62   Standard Gray         ANSI Enter                                      Black unprinted keys
        Compact F62   Standard Gray         ANSI Enter                                      Pearl+pebble blank keys
        Compact F62   Standard Gray         ISO Enter
        Compact F62   Standard Gray         Split Right Shift and Split Backspace           Black unprinted keys
        Compact F62   Standard Gray         Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
        Compact F62   Standard Gray         Split Right Shift and Split Backspace           Pearl+pebble blank keys
        Compact F62   Standard Gray         Split Right Shift and 2U backspace
        Compact F62   Standard Gray         Split Right Shift and 2U backspace              Pearl+pebble blank keys
        Compact F77   Black                 ANSI Enter                                      Black unprinted keys
        Compact F77   Black                 ANSI Enter
        Compact F77   Black                 ANSI Enter                                      Pearl+pebble blank keys
        Compact F77   Black                 ISO Enter                                       Black unprinted keys
        Compact F77   Black                 ISO Enter
        Compact F77   Black                 ISO Enter                                       Pearl+pebble blank keys
        Compact F77   Black                 Split Right Shift and Split Backspace           Black unprinted keys
        Compact F77   Black                 Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
        Compact F77   Black                 Split Right Shift and 2U backspace              Black unprinted keys
        Compact F77   Black                 Split Right Shift and 2U backspace
        Compact F77   Black                 Split Right Shift and 2U backspace              Pearl+pebble blank keys
        Compact F77   Carolina Blue         ANSI Enter
        Compact F77   Carolina Blue         Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
        Compact F77   Carolina Blue         Split Right Shift and 2U backspace              Black unprinted keys
        Compact F77   Carolina Blue         Split Right Shift and 2U backspace
        Compact F77   Dark Blue             ANSI Enter
        Compact F77   Dark Blue             ISO Enter
        Compact F77   Dark Blue             Split Right Shift and 2U backspace
        Compact F77   Regular Gray          ANSI Enter                                      Black unprinted keys
        Compact F77   Regular Gray          ANSI Enter
        Compact F77   Regular Gray          ANSI Enter                                      Pearl+pebble blank keys
        Compact F77   Regular Gray          ISO Enter
        Compact F77   Regular Gray          Split Right Shift and Split Backspace           Black unprinted keys
        Compact F77   Regular Gray          Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
        Compact F77   Regular Gray          Split Right Shift and Split Backspace           Pearl+pebble blank keys
        Compact F77   Regular Gray          Split Right Shift and 2U backspace              Black unprinted keys
        Compact F77   Regular Gray          Split Right Shift and 2U backspace
        F62           Black                 ANSI Enter                                      Black unprinted keys
        F62           Black                 ANSI Enter
        F62           Black                 ANSI Enter and Split Backspace                  Black unprinted keys
        F62           Black                 ANSI Enter and Split Backspace
        F62           Black                 ISO Enter
        F62           Black                 ISO Enter                                       Pearl+pebble blank keys
        F62           Black                 Split Right Shift and Split Backspace and short lBlack unprinted keys
        F62           Black                 Split Right Shift and 2U backspace              Black unprinted keys
        F62           Black                 Split Right Shift and 2U backspace
        F62           Black                 Split Right Shift and 2U backspace              Pearl+pebble blank keys
        F62           Industrial Gray       ANSI Enter                                      Pearl+pebble blank keys
        F62           Industrial Gray       F62 scumnc ANSI Enter
        F62           Industrial Gray       ISO Enter                                       Pearl+pebble blank keys
        F62           Industrial Gray       Split Right Shift and 2U backspace
        F62           Industrial Gray       Split Right Shift and 2U backspace              Pearl+pebble blank keys
        F62           Off-White/Beige       F62 scumnc ANSI Enter
        F62           Off-White/Beige       ISO Enter
        F62           Off-White/Beige       ISO Enter                                       Pearl+pebble blank keys
        F62           Off-White/Beige       ISO Enter and Split Right Shift, 2U backspace   Pearl+pebble blank keys
        F62           True Red              ANSI Enter                                      Black unprinted keys
        F62           True Red              ANSI Enter
        F62           True Red              Split Right Shift and 2U backspace
        F77           Black                 ANSI Enter                                      Black unprinted keys
        F77           Black                 ANSI Enter                                      Pearl+pebble blank keys
        F77           Black                 ISO Enter                                       Black unprinted keys
        F77           Black                 ISO Enter                                       Pearl+pebble blank keys
        F77           Black                 Split Right Shift and Split Backspace           Black unprinted keys
        F77           Black                 Split Right Shift and Split Backspace and short lBlack unprinted keys
        F77           Black                 Split Right Shift and 2U backspace              Black unprinted keys
        F77           Black                 Split Right Shift and 2U backspace              Pearl+pebble blank keys
        F77           Industrial Gray       ANSI Enter                                      Black unprinted keys
        F77           Industrial Gray       ANSI Enter
        F77           Industrial Gray       ANSI Enter                                      Pearl+pebble blank keys
        F77           Industrial Gray       ISO Enter                                       Pearl+pebble blank keys
        F77           Industrial Gray       Split Right Shift and Split Backspace           Black unprinted keys
        F77           Industrial Gray       Split Right Shift and Split Backspace
        F77           Industrial Gray       Split Right Shift and Split Backspace           Pearl+pebble blank keys
        F77           Off-White/Beige       ISO Enter                                       Pearl+pebble blank keys
        F77           True Red              ANSI Enter                                      Black unprinted keys

[jacobsoncharlie]

So the blue keys are missing from the second container ship?

[Ellipse]

Dye sub update:  Good news!  The factory finalized the alignment and said they are ready to start production.  We only have a few days left before Chinese New Year but if all goes well they hope to send some key sets before the break starts.

The above list refers to factory installations of keys only.  As noted around the announcement of the blue key offerings, those keys are not installed by the factory.  Thousands of accessory parts including extra unprinted keys are also shipping in the current container shipment - including beam controllers, solenoids, solenoid drivers, extra keyboard cases and packaging, blue keys, and dark gray keys.

[dc_in_sf]

After finding out recently that I can actually live with a 60% layout (a long delayed 60% GB finally arrived), I've pulled the trigger on a F62 to go with the F77 I already have. The F77 is one of my favorite boards at the moment, so excited to (eventually) get a friend for it

[Ellipse]

Great dc_in_sf; it is always great to know that people who have received their new Model F keyboard like it enough to have ordered another one!

Thanks to Zed's updates of the sublimation artwork, the factory received the approved artwork for production today!  As seen in the prior samples, the artwork was a little thicker than the IBM originals (I guess because of a bit of bleed/dye migration in the sublimation process) so now the legends should be the same thickness as the originals.  The factory will be doing some testing and will then finally start production in the final days before CNY break! 

The key sets were the last aspect of production for bringing the Model F back to life and it is great that production is starting, though only a small number of sets can possibly be completed and mailed to me in the remaining days before their time off.  When they return their focus will be on ramping up sublimation.  I ended up spending significantly more than expected on several units of customized equipment and additional costs for dye sublimation - all new!  Since we are making thousands of key sets (plus thousands of individual extra keys) it will take months to complete.  I expect them to send sets as they go as opposed to everything only when everything is done but this is not finalized.

The keys proved to be the most difficult part of the project.  As noted on the project web site blog, production of the first key molds begin in early 2017 and failed to achieve IBM's tolerances that I had required, costing 5 figures in losses that were not recovered.  Then production of the key molds started with another factory in late 2017 and succeeded, but it took over one year to create the molds and finish the first order of keys (a typical injection mold can be completed in 30-60 days or less, like for the barrels and flippers).  (However as detailed on the blog, there were many other challenges along the way and the timing was such that the keys were not a bottleneck to finishing production and assembly of the early bird keyboards' first batch received in late 2019 - had we not ordered brand new keys the keyboards would still have been shipped around the same time).  After years of my own sublimation R&D (overlapping with the key production timeline) and R&D over in China starting in May 2020 we are finally at the production stage of what I believe are IBM XT quality one piece Model F keys!

[m_v_k]

Ordered two F62s months back and am excited to get my hands on them. Definitely want to get my hands on an F77 before this is over however. The only unfortunate thing about this is that these aren't going to be produced forever.

[mode]

Went for a red F77

[Ellipse]

The latest monthly update is now on the project web site blog:
https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/blog/

As noted before, a big thanks to forum member Zed for creating and updating the sublimation artwork. The factory received the approved artwork for production and started production this week. We only have a few days left before Chinese New Year but if all goes well the factory is going to try to make a small number of sets of US ANSI, Apple/Mac, and HHKB 6 key and send them to me before Chinese New Year break. That way I can start getting orders with printed key sets out.

Below are examples of some of the production Brand New Model F key sets bagged up and ready to be express mailed to me:


And here are two Enter keys hanging out together (this is from finalized dye sublimation artwork). The texture is so fresh on the new key molds that the legends seem to glisten if the key is positioned just at the right angle to a light source. Of course there’s no glistening, just deep black when viewing the keys as you are typing on the keyboard as opposed to viewing straight down with a strong light source.

The angle of lighting and the angle of your camera definitely affect the perception of the keys as shown by these two identical keys at slightly different angles.

[Ellipse]

Dye sublimation update:  The factory expects to send approximately 200 sets of each type (~200 ANSI US, ~200 HHKB, ~200 Mac) this week!  This is far more than expected (the expectation was ~50).  This means that an even larger number of single digit and low serials can start going out, so long as there are no other printed keys besides those three types of sets in the order.  Here are the approximate number of low/custom serial keyboards by year, some of which do not have pearl/pebble printed ANSI sets. 

2016   63
2017   104
2018   106
2019   146
2020   135
2021   18
Total   572

To avoid further complications I will not accept "split split shipping" requests - all the printed keys someone ordered will ship in the same shipment.

I also asked them to include in the express mail shipment about 50 "B stock" non-approved key sets made during their testing - not up to my standards but not unusable.  These sets are among the very first new Model F sets and have the slightly thicker artwork in the below link, and definitely a number of keys with less precise alignment, possibly worse or possibly better than what was in this photo:  https://deskthority.net/viewtopic.php?p=477782#p477782

In the interest of getting out as many printed key sets as possible, these "B stock" key sets are going to be made available for fast shipment (within several weeks) at a higher price to help cover the thousands of dollars in project cost overruns incurred just on items related to the dye sublimation, as well as help cover the significant express mail fees of shipping lots of keys by air mail. 

By ordering one of these "B stock" sets you will be one of the first to receive a printed key set, and is a good option to consider if you are not 100% picky on achieving IBM Model F standards of alignment as I am and would prefer to start using a printed key set as soon as possible.  After these sets I won't be offering B stock at all.  The factory will just replace any keys in a key set based on my tolerance specifications so that they won't have to discard an entire key set.

In the interest of honoring the original priority from the beginning of the project (where feasible:  single digit, then low serial, then all remaining keyboards), no one can order now any of the first batch of printed sets that are shipping.

[profanum429]

For the b stock, will those include any HHKB sets or just the standard keysets?

[Ellipse]

US ANSI, Mac, and HHKB 6 key sets are included in B stock. 

[profanum429]

US ANSI, Mac, and HHKB 6 key sets are included in B stock.

Excellent, I look forward to trying to snag a set!

[Cods]

• Printed keys coming!
• "Everything will go out in priority order, putting at top of the list the single digit serials, early bird tooling volunteers, and custom/low serial orders in order of the date of your first keyboard ordered."

Yay!
I tick all those boxes.
And now working from home a lot more, I can clack away to my heart's content.

OK, so, now I'm totally hyped.