Islam

[microsoft windows]

Time to argue about Islam. I believe the mosque should not be built by Ground Zero. Do you?

[ricercar]

Time to argue about Islam. I believe the mosque should not be built by Ground Zero. Do you?

• This is like forbidding a church to be built near a KKK lynching site: ignorant and foolish. Why blame all Christians for an extremist sect's crime?
• The United States is built upon freedoms, not restrictions. Nazis can parade. Gays can marry. Jews can run banks. Fat white folk can sit couches. Muslims can build mosques.

I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll let my government's soldiers defend to the death your right to say it.

[Ekaros]

Can I lynch americans here too?

On mosque, isn't USA a "free" country? So, why can't people do anything they want as long as they don't harm one other(goverment is allowed?)?

[quadibloc]

No, no. That isn't the Prophet. It's the man who founded the dynasty that ruled Egypt from 1805 onwards, as the Wali of Egypt and the Sudan.

[ricercar]

Me too.



It's actually more of a philosophy....

[Oqsy]

I thought islam was a cold cut...

[ricercar]

the man who founded the dynasty that ruled Egypt from 1805 onwards, as the Wali of Egypt and the Sudan.

I thought the Wali came down in 1989.

[didjamatic]

I thought this was hilarious, and it's actually on topic.  Sorry if it offends.

[Lanx]

I'll reiterate what i said in the religion thread, the mosque being built is fine, that mosque isn't sh%%ing on anyone. However adding a cultural center along w/ the mosque is basically sh%%ing on ppl. So go build a 2 floor mosque, i don't think anyone will care, but then piggyback a cultural center along w/ a mosque? now that is just abusing the "freedom of religion" bs.

[jpc]

I hate Illinois Nazis!

[ch_123]

Clearly what this thread needs is another raving Welly post, in which he rants on about every one else who doesn't agree with him is a relativist terrorist-loving, holocaust-denying retard, without actually specifying what his point of view actually is, or what actually should be done to solve the ill-defined issues he rants about.

[jpc]

Godwins law.

Not Godwin -- John Belushi. He says it right before this happens.

[quadibloc]

I saw this news article which is oddly relevant...

[quadibloc]

Muhammad Ali converted from Sunni to Sufism in 2005.

I'm glad to hear that he has moved to one of the tolerant Muslim denominations. It is only the two mainstream denominations of Islam, Sunni and Shi'a, that sadly have a significant intolerant streak.

[chimera15]

I'm an atheist, but I believe people have the right to be stupid and do stupid things as long as it doesn't hurt anyone, so they can build the mosque on a church for all I care.  The damage is already done, building another mosque or cultural center, or whatever there is meaningless, as there's already one as close to ground zero that's been there for 50 years and has overloaded it's capacity, which is kind of why they wanted to build this place.  I don't get why anyone would be so upset about it, except that Fox News needed something to fear monger about to up their ratings.

[Shawn Stanford]

I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll let my government's soldiers defend to the death your right to say it.

I got yer back...

[Zen]

Religion should be banned.. Or declared a psychiatric diagnose !!

[keyboardlover]

Religion should be banned.. Or declared a psychiatric diagnose !!

Would that concept be considered extreme-right, extreme-left, or both?

I say both.

[Zen]

Religion is for people who can't handle reality .

[keyboardlover]

Religion is for people who can't handle reality .

That's your opinion. Many people (including myself) believe that religion is part of (and infused with) reality.

[Shawn Stanford]

That's your opinion. Many people (including myself) believe that religion is part of (and infused with) reality.

This is an interesting statement...

The word 'infused' means to give something a flavor or something else, such as an infused oil used in cooking. This leads to two interpretations of how religion is infused with reality:

1) That religion is the basis for being and that reality is merely a 'flavoring'.

2) That religion is merely affected by reality, rather than being a part of it.

Words are such interesting ways to express ideas, aren't they?

[quadibloc]

This is an interesting statement...

I think that all he meant was that not only can you look in the Yellow Pages and find churches there (religion is a reality) but that there is also a God (religion contains, or is infused with, reality).

[wellington1869]

This is an interesting statement...

The word 'infused' means to give something a flavor or something else, such as an infused oil used in cooking. This leads to two interpretations of how religion is infused with reality:

1) That religion is the basis for being and that reality is merely a 'flavoring'.

2) That religion is merely affected by reality, rather than being a part of it.

Words are such interesting ways to express ideas, aren't they?

I'd agree with keyboardlover's statement but I think the exact definition of 'infused' will probably differ from person to person.

For me, 'infused' means that religion colors and shapes the reality we percieve. But then its not just religion that does that, or has that effect. If its not our religion, then its our ideology that does that. Either way we dont receive reality transparently (and never will, despite the dream of the positivists).

But nor do I then throw up my hands in the air, like the relativists, and say well then we cant know reality so let your imagination run wild. Because we can still successfully interact with reality by taking cues from it, experimenting with it, determining general rules of cause and effect, including recognizing the effects of our own thoughts and acts on that reality, etc.  All that information can then feedback into our knowledge of both ourselves and our world, and further shape it.  THe argument for me, then, isnt whether reality exists, but what we want to do with it.  Ie, it always comes back to a values-and-methods argument.  Thats also what I mean when I say, the question isnt 'does god exist' (which is an ontological debate about the nature of "reality") but rather, "what kind of god"?  The latter is the more interesting question. and is a values debate.

I think where both 'atheists' and 'evangelicals' go wrong is in both of their refusal to interact with reality. Atheists want to raise it up as the sole objective law, evangelicals want to deny its force entirely.  Both therefore are similar in that they eliminate any sense of interacting. They treat people the same way, incidentally. (ie, refusing to dialogue).

[JBert]

Religion should be banned.. Or declared a psychiatric diagnose !!

Religion don't kill people, idiots do.

[quadibloc]

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition.

And nobody expected Nehemiah Scudder in 2012, either, but he's becoming a real possibility...

[keyboardlover]

I think many people discard religion since its mysterious and can't be proven by fact. This is true, but religion is meant to be a mystery and to truly believe in it, u must accept that its a mystery. And to me, if you don't believe at least that there's more to what we perceive as reality than what we can see, touch, etc, then that's a pretty ignorant way to live life.

[Zen]

I think you should be limited to one trolling post a week.

Did you know today is the 7th anniversary of Johnny Cash's death?  

Please take a moment of silence to remember the fallen.

Show Image

No it isn't !!
Good People like Johnny don't die the same way
as the rest of us mere mortals !
Johnny Cash's musical life was "a work without blemish, of uninterrupted perfection."
And in 200 years people will still hear The Man In Black, kinda like we still listen to Mozart almost 300 years after he "died"..

[wellington1869]

I'm an atheist, but I believe people have the right to be stupid and do stupid things as long as it doesn't hurt anyone

thats pretty much my view. which i think technically makes me an agnostic of some kind.

[wellington1869]

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[Zen]

Religion don't kill people, idiots do.

I take it that you won't deny millions of idiots have used religion as an excuse to kill countless millions of other people ?
IMHumbleO religion is BS .. All off'em !

[keyboardlover]

I take it that you won't deny millions of idiots have used religion as an excuse to kill countless millions of other people ?
IMHumbleO religion is BS .. All off'em !

Yea...people have also used all kinds of other excuses for war too. People have also used Religion as a 'reason' (not an excuse) to do a lot of good and even great things for other people in the world. So...not really sure of the relevancy of your comment.

[wellington1869]

IMHumbleO religion is BS .. All off'em !

while that may be literally true, in terms of social/govt policy, I think the only rational course a govt can take is to say believe what you want so long as you dont hurt people...  the "private/public" distinction that the enlightenment generated is crucial for modern civilized life.  Of course that distinction is not recognized by either commies or islamists/evangelicals.

[Lanx]

I think many people discard religion since its mysterious and can't be proven by fact. This is true, but religion is meant to be a mystery and to truly believe in it, u must accept that its a mystery. And to me, if you don't believe at least that there's more to what we perceive as reality than what we can see, touch, etc, then that's a pretty ignorant way to live life.

So your taking the good ol, heathens are ignorant view but yet you don't ask why, you just assume, pretty hyocritically ignorant.

In college my girlfriend(now fiancee) had a friend since high school who was raised really religious, because her father was a pastor(or whatever you call it), I mean the whole family only had a tv in the parents bedroom so they could all watch TV together(and be monitored). (their favorite show at the time was 7th heaven, and thats kinda ironic cuz we all know about jessica biel!)
Now she was your average school innocent child you know, if there was an innocent person to represent the whole school it'd be her, and being that she was a friend of my gf, i extended whatever i could to her, protection from whackos (we went to an engineering/technology school so it was 99% male geeks, the few women that were there had trails of guys lusting after them and she was a "prize" cuz she was just so innocent). She didn't know much b/c of her sheltered life, i mean we went to the big movie at the time, scary movie? or something, she had to walk out of the theatre cuz of all the stuff she was being exposed to.
So she's a good student and trying to socialize too and have a good time, then she's like yea my dad is dealing with pancreatic cancer. I'm like, the pastor? she's like yea. And later on I mean she takes us to meet him on a few occassions, a few times it was at a picnic or whatever and he's a nice all around guy, a few other times he was hooked up to machines and not doing so well. Graduation he couldn't make it cuz he was doing so bad, and my gf and her lost touch (cuz we moved to virginia for jobs) then later she gets in touch again and her friends father died from the cancer and she's left to support the family, house and medical bills. she still belives it's all just a test and she'll endure.

I've never questioned about her faith or anything cuz i'm not about that, and she's never questioned mine, we were really just friends by proxy (of my gf) and if anything i was just mostly in the role of looking out for the third wheel (which i didn't mind).

tldr-girls pastor/father dies horribly of pancreatic cancer and still believes a test is involved.

[ch_123]

Both therefore are similar in that they eliminate any sense of interacting. They treat people the same way, incidentally. (ie, refusing to dialogue).

Personal experience shows that discussions about religion with people who believe different things to you don't really go anywhere, and just end up pissing everyone off in the process.

At the end of the day, different faiths, and different religious viewpoints offer largely mutually exclusive viewpoints of the world. The further you dig in to what you believe, the harder it gets to rationalize acceptance of other people's viewpoints of the world within your viewpoint. Some people will say "If what people think/believe makes them happy, then so be it", but that's more a lack of dialogue out of politeness than anything really.

[wellington1869]

At the end of the day, different faiths, and different religious viewpoints offer largely mutually exclusive viewpoints of the world. The further you dig in to what you believe, the harder it gets to rationalize acceptance of other people's viewpoints of the world within your viewpoint.

its true that if you dig deeper you'll find everyone is an individual.

but to solve most practical problems that face us all communally (which is all that govt needs to do), we dont actually need to dig all that deep.

[wellington1869]

-girls pastor/father dies horribly of pancreatic cancer and still believes a test is involved.

i was very close to a person like that (er, my gf for 3 years  I found her approach to be fatalistic and self defeating, but on the other hand, she did endure everything life threw at her and came out on top just by enduring. whcih i'm sure she took to be a sign of having passed the 'test'. ugh.

[Zen]

Yea...people have also used all kinds of other excuses for war too. People have also used Religion as a 'reason' (not an excuse) to do a lot of good and even great things for other people in the world. So...not really sure of the relevancy of your comment.

Sounds more like good old fashion Human Decency than religion to me .
All non-perverted humans will probably agree that murder, rape, thievery,
lying, disrespect towards the elderly etc etc aren't Kosher , Halal or virtous ..
Even Buddhists and Atheists think the Ten Commandments make good sense .

My point being that decent human beings don't need religious doctrine
to know what is right and what isn't ..
(JFYI : I'm a Roman catholic who only attends Mass when there is no Pope.
I have a serious issue whit the Pope-cultism)

[keyboardlover]

So your taking the good ol, heathens are ignorant view but yet you don't ask why, you just assume, pretty hyocritically ignorant.

No, that's not my view at all. I'm not saying if you don't believe in religion you're ignorant. I'm saying if you don't believe that there's more to reality than what we perceive - then THAT is ignorant. Re-read my post.

tldr-girls pastor/father dies horribly of pancreatic cancer and still believes a test is involved.

There's nothing wrong with believing that life is a series of tests; it can be a very good way for people to get better. Everyone has to deal with **** in life and I'm sure that a lot of very good people have to deal with even more **** than her. We have to play the hand we're dealt don't we? You can easily think of that, in itself, as a series of tests. Sometimes tests in life seems inexplicably hard don't they? But we always become better when we get through them.

[keyboardlover]

Sounds more like good old fashion Human Decency than religion to me .
All non-perverted humans will probably agree that murder, rape, thievery,
lying, disrespect towards the elderly etc etc aren't Kosher , Halal or virtous ..
Even Buddhists and Atheists think the Ten Commandments make good sense .

My point being that decent human beings don't need religious doctrine
to know what is right and what isn't ..
(JFYI : I'm a Roman catholic who only attends Mass when there is no Pope.
I have a serious issue whit the Pope-cultism)

Of course not everyone needs religion - it's not right for everybody, just as any particular religion isn't right for everybody. But like you said, so long as it doesn't involve violation of human rights, dignity, etc. - then who are we to judge what's right for someone else?

[Lanx]

Even Buddhists and Atheists think the Ten Commandments make good sense .

probably not

"I am the LORD your God
"Do not swear falsely by the name of the LORD

or possibily
Remember [zachor] the Sabbath day and keep it holy
(i'm a workaholic)

and doesn't every religion do this?
"Do not make an image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above

or else there would be so many JC nailed to a cross statues?

thats about 40% that isn't right.

[Lanx]

No, that's not my view at all. I'm not saying if you don't believe in religion you're ignorant. I'm saying if you don't believe that there's more to reality than what we perceive - then THAT is ignorant. Re-read my post.

So in order to be not part of the ignorant club, you have "believe" u know use human emotion and have "faith" that there could, kinda, sorta is something more out there in the vastness of not understanding.
And also believe in little green men who come down to earth with their assortment of anal probes. cuz you know little green men are more than what we perceive.

[keyboardlover]

So in order to be not part of the ignorant club, you have "believe" u know use human emotion and have "faith" that there could, kinda, sorta is something more out there in the vastness of not understanding.
And also believe in little green men who come down to earth with their assortment of anal probes. cuz you know little green men are more than what we perceive.

Um...what??

[Ekaros]

tldr-girls pastor/father dies horribly of pancreatic cancer and still believes a test is involved.

Hmm, not in this case, but generalized some christians seem bit self-centered or maybe they are just comparing themselves to Job... Anyway, I can't see logic behind bad coming to family and person as test of faith from "loving" god... But who am I to tell, as an atheist...

[keyboardlover]

Hmm, not in this case, but generalized some christians seem bit self-centered or maybe they are just comparing themselves to Job... Anyway, I can't see logic behind bad coming to family and person as test of faith from "loving" god... But who am I to tell, as an atheist...

The whole concept of a 'loving god' I've found to be another thing that confuses most non-religious people. As a Christian, I can attest that we believe that God loves us by giving us gifts including the gift of life, the world as we know it, etc. Another gift is the ability to think for ourselves (which other animals in nature don't have - they only have instinct.) We have both instinct and the ability to think for ourselves. We do with that - as we wish. Of course the results are both good and bad, but God has no power over that, remember - because he gave us the gift of being able to think for ourselves.

[Lanx]

Um...what??

Re-read my post.
What i can infer from your logic is that you have to give in to what is beyond basic reality to not be ignorant.
Just like for some people it is beyond basic reality to believe there is a guiding hand.
There is also for some beyond basic reality that there are little green men and their hands have anal probes.

And these 2 examples are usually linked anyway, cuz where do all the crop circles and abductions happen? at the "bible belt" where all the corn fields and wheat fields are.

[Ekaros]

The whole concept of a 'loving god' I've found to be another thing that confuses most non-religious people. As a Christian, I can attest that we believe that God loves us by giving us gifts including the gift of life, the world as we know it, etc. Another gift is the ability to think for ourselves (which other animals in nature don't have - they only have instinct.) We have both instinct and the ability to think for ourselves. We do with that - as we wish. Of course the results are both good and bad, but God has no power over that, remember - because he gave us the gift of being able to think for ourselves.

This is OT, but do you then think prayer cannot have any effect? Or do you pray for some other mean?

[wellington1869]

probably not

"I am the LORD your God
"Do not swear falsely by the name of the LORD

or possibily
Remember [zachor] the Sabbath day and keep it holy
(i'm a workaholic)

and doesn't every religion do this?
"Do not make an image or any likeness of what is in the heavens above

or else there would be so many JC nailed to a cross statues?

thats about 40% that isn't right.

yea, some of them are hard to swallow for non-monotheists.

things like 'dont kill' are easy to agree to. But i know many buddhists and hindus, for example, creatively interpret the others. For instance, 'no other god but me' doesnt really fly well for polytheists. 'no graven images' doesnt fly well for cultures like buddhism and hinduism so steeped in the art and artistry of divine icons.
So they interpret these a little creatively. For instance, they dont take them literally. They take 'no other gods but me' to be a non-literal reference to the unity of Being (which both hindus and buddhists can agree to). Similarly they interpret 'no graven images' to mean "understand that any icon is a tool to lead you towards the recognition of the unity of being". Ie, dont take the image too seriously, its one manifestation of the infinite faces of god.

So there are definitely some 'commandments' that they dont take literally but figuratively. When they do that, yea, they can accept the commandments.

after all, even the commandment 'dont kill' was originally not literal. Moses didnt want the 12 tribes to kill each other - ie, it was against internal divisiveness (which was the context when he went up the mountain, leaving the jews quarrelling amongst themselves with no unity). He certainly didnt mean dont kill the philistines and others the 12 tribes were currently at war with. So he certainly didnt mean it literally.  It (and the other commandments) have always been read within different historical contexts and therefore with non-literal meanings.  Its only evangelicals who read them literally.

[keyboardlover]

Re-read my post.
What i can infer from your logic is that you have to give in to what is beyond basic reality to not be ignorant.
Just like for some people it is beyond basic reality to believe there is a guiding hand.
There is also for some beyond basic reality that there are little green men and their hands have anal probes.

And these 2 examples are usually linked anyway, cuz where do all the crop circles and abductions happen? at the "bible belt" where all the corn fields and wheat fields are.

I'm seeing little relevancy to what you're inferring. What I meant, is exactly what I said.

This is OT, but do you then think prayer cannot have any effect? Or do you pray for some other mean?

Well, Christians believe that if you need God, he knows it, but you have to show him in some way that you need help (it's like if you're in math class and you don't know the problem but don't raise your hand, you're not going to get any help). It's affect should be two-part; 1. it should bring a calming feeling (similar to meditation) and 2. there's an idea that an answer to what you're requesting will be delivered to you in some way (could be any random life situation).

[keyboardlover]

tl;dr
That said, subscribing to any actual religion is a pretty limiting and unquestionably ignorant thing to do.

Having no belief at all ("blank slate") is the least limiting option (not necessarily least ignorant, but then...is it really ignorant if there's no proof that there's something to believe in anyway?). Least limiting = excellent "default choice". Should someone want to explore those areas of thought and theory, they can form their own beliefs.

Organized religion is crap and needs to be abolished. At the very least it will be a step...a major contributing factor, over the course of, say, 10 generations...towards world peace, if such a thing can ever be attained.

I agree with you in some ways...but organized religion isn't really crap - religion is what you do with it as an individual. Just like any religious text - it's not meant to be read word-for-word - it's meant to be interpreted in a way that's important to YOU. Everyone is an individual with individual beliefs. If you think that's going to change (and that will bring world peace)...well that's pretty ignorant.

As long as I subscribe to no specific belief system, live my life doing good for others, and have respect for the world I live in I believe I'll be treated well by whatever judgement system there may be.

I agree with that and see no problem with it.

And (edit) I'm actually not a strict Christian or Catholic (raised Catholic) and I do believe that some parts of organized religion do more harm than good. But like I said, I think it's more about what you do as an individual and I don't think it really matters whether that does or doesn't involve aspects of organized religion.

[Parak]

it's not meant to be read word-for-word - it's meant to be interpreted in a way that's important to YOU. Everyone is an individual with individual beliefs. If you think that's going to change (and that will bring world peace)...well that's pretty ignorant.

Organized religion contradicts that directly. It's like saying that you like governments, but adhere to the ideas of anarchy.