Islam

[keyboardlover]

Organized religion contradicts that directly. It's like saying that you like governments, but adhere to the ideas of anarchy.

Well, I was raised Catholic and that's what I was taught so...

[Parak]

Well, I was raised Catholic and that's what I was taught so...

Of course. People can interpret things however they wish, and have their individual beliefs, as long as those interpretations and beliefs adhere to what's dictated by their respective organized religion.

[keyboardlover]

Of course. People can interpret things however they wish, and have their individual beliefs, as long as those interpretations and beliefs adhere to what's dictated by their respective organized religion.

I think you're missing the point...the point of organized religion (to me) is to simply give you a structure to base your individual beliefs upon. No Christian (or otherwise religious person) should ever feel like what their religion "dictates" should ever take the place over doing what's right. And doing what's right, is an individual decision.

[keyboardlover]

Ahhh it's good that you've clarified this, keyboardlover. The assumption (and not incorrectly, in a whole whack of cases) when someone says "I'm a ______" is that you are one of those "I MUST DO EXACTLY WHAT THEY SAY OR I AM DESTINED FOR _______ (insert something horrible)" people.

So, in essence, you have the basic fundamental Christian beliefs, mixed with your own interpretations and extensions? Quite different from what I presumed, for sure. Carry on.

Yea and I think that's a common misconception with most religious folks (and especially with Christians). In reality, that concept really goes against Christ's actual teachings. For example, I suspect that much of what that preacher who was going to burn the Korans violates much of Christ's actual teachings. And, there are parts of every Christian religion (including Catholicism) which go against Christ's actual teachings. It's true that organized religion misconstrues a lot of things - I'm just trying to point out that it's not all bad (if you take only take in the good).

[ch_123]

The Catholic Church seems pretty insistent that it's interpretation of things is the only valid one, and you'll burn in hell if you think otherwise.

Which is kinda funny when they start changing stuff around and making up new things, and then tell people how great it is that they're keeping up with the times.

[keyboardlover]

The Catholic Church seems pretty insistent that it's interpretation of things is the only valid one, and you'll burn in hell if you think otherwise.

Which is kinda funny when they start changing stuff around and making up new things, and then tell people how great it is that they're keeping up with the times.

Well, certainly no large, complex organization of people is perfect, is it? And of course there will be room for interpretation when it involves something (like religion) which is, in and of itself, a mystery. Again, that belief is not what I was taught (and many others that I know).

[ch_123]

The 'selling point' of the Catholic Church is that because their organization descends directly back to the church of St. Peter, and that the Pope is God's human representative on earth, that their interpretation of the Christian faith is the only valid one going. If you are a Catholic, you have to accept everything the church tells you, or you are basically a bad Catholic. A lot of people ignore this issue, but this is the official policy of the church.

Now, it so happens that with this official and infallible interpretation of The Way Things Are™, you get a lot of baggage that never was mentioned anywhere in the bible, and was basically just pulled out of the collective arse of the church. Take the concept of 'limbo' for example. At no point was limbo ever mentioned in the bible. The basis for it was some loose interpretation of some lines in the bible, but such is the nature of the bible that any line could be interpreted to mean just about anything, and you'll inevitably find someone who agrees with you.

For anyone reading unfamiliar with the concept, Catholicism used to preach that if you died without being baptised, you would be trapped in limbo, a sort of grey prison between heaven and hell where you'd languish in boredom for the rest of eternity. If a child was horribly sick upon being born, the priest would be rushed in to do a sort of 'emergency baptism' to prevent the soul of the child being trapped in limbo. But if this didn't happen, off the soul went to limbo. The child would never get to spend the rest of eternity in paradise. In some places, they were denied a dignified burial in a church. In times when such things were taken very seriously, the trauma of all this to the bereaved families often equaled that of the loss within of itself.

So then, in the aforementioned Second Vatican council, limbo was seen as somewhat outdated and was done away with. But this raises all sorts of questions - was limbo suddenly dissolved and all the souls sent up to heaven? Was limbo retained, but subsequent unbaptised souls spared from it? Was there even a limbo in the first place? Stuff like this was serious business for a lot of people, and yet it suddenly was irrelevant. When we consider again the basis under which Catholicism is predicated, there are only really two conclusions to draw -

1) The Catholic Church was wrong in the teaching of limbo. But they're meant to be right about everything, so if they were wrong about that, what else are they wrong about?
2) The concept of limbo was irrelevant from the outset. But everything the Church teaches is meant to be the canon that all Catholics must follow, so if that's irrelevant, what else is?

Now, at this point you may think that I'm holding the Church to ridiculous standards, and it's absurd to criticize the Church for moving forward. But the thing is that it's not moving forward - it's still denouncing the evils of things like homosexuality, contraception and even masturbation because, well, that's what they've always been doing and why would they change now? In Africa, one of the big obstacles that those trying to fight AIDS are facing is the disruptive influence of the Catholic Church. When they're not preaching fire and brimstone about contraception, they're using bull**** pseudo-science to undermine actual workable solutions. A few years back, I read the results of a survey that showed that 75% of Nigeran Catholic priests believed that AIDS was God's punishment for homosexuality and other various sins. Great...

Even though I have no time for religion, I admire the progressive Protestant-based faiths that have actually realized that the Medieval age ended a few centuries ago, and try to bring the positive message of Christ to their followers. But Catholicism isn't like that. Catholicism is a disguisting dinosaur religion that is not strengthened by the passage of time, but undermined and ridiculed, cursed by its own arrogance to be set in stone and watch the rest of the world fly by it. But sure, nothing is perfect, especially those who think they are.

[keyboardlover]

Dude - you hate Catholicism and have a personal vendetta against it. We get it. No religion is perfect. I could write a 74320978-line post about the problems of any said religion and why I'm so butthurt about it. But...would anyone care? And would it make any difference?

[microsoft windows]

I hate it when people sympathisize with the terrorist Muslims but hate Christianity.

[ch_123]

I hate it when people sympathisize with the terrorist Muslims but hate Christianity.

Is that a reference to me? Because I sure as hell don't remember sympathizing with Muslim terrorists.

[ch_123]

Dude - you hate Catholicism and have a personal vendetta against it. We get it. No religion is perfect. I could write a 74320978-line post about the problems of any said religion and why I'm so butthurt about it. But...would anyone care? And would it make any difference?

Why discuss anything so? Plenty of people have posted tl;dr opinions of all sorts of political and religious views around here. Why not ask all them that same question? This is something that happens to concern me and I decided to spell out my opinions on the matter. Simple as that. I don't see how I have any more of a 'personal vendetta' against Catholicism that Welly has against relativists, or MW against healthcare.

[keyboardlover]

Why discuss anything so? Plenty of people have posted tl;dr opinions of all sorts of political and religious views around here. Why not ask all them that same question? This is something that happens to concern me and I decided to spell out my opinions on the matter. Simple as that. I don't see how I have any more of a 'personal vendetta' against Catholicism that Welly has against relativists, or MW against healthcare.

Well, things are worth discussing when the points are constructive. Yours are destructive. If you could somehow make them constructive, you might have something worth discussing.

[microsoft windows]

Is that a reference to me? Because I sure as hell don't remember sympathizing with Muslim terrorists.

I wasn't referencing you. I don't really remember your stance on Islam. I was just referencing the general younger leftist audience (You know, the Obama fanatics).

[chongyixiong]

http://www.galileowaswrong.com/galileowaswrong/

Only $50 and you get a free luncheon!

[Oqsy]

Do you get a free Geocentrism thermos to take with you to school / work to show everyone how kickass you are?

[audioave10]

Another profit seminar for the weakminded.
SAD

[chimera15]

1 step up from the flat earth society at least.

http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48&Itemid=65

[wellington1869]

Only $50 and you get a free luncheon!

what the hell is luncheon? why dont they just call it lunch?

[ch_123]

Well, things are worth discussing when the points are constructive. Yours are destructive. If you could somehow make them constructive, you might have something worth discussing.

I don't get what you mean by 'destructive' in this context. I guess most criticisms of anything are 'destructive' in nature. I'm sure if I discussed my 'destructive' opinions about holocaust deniers, I wouldn't have got the same response.

Or are you saying that nothing good can come out of what I'm saying? I think that discussing the bad points of an organization that reaped such evil upon so many people around the world is probably a good thing. Again, no one accuses people of being 'destructive' when they bad mouth fascists, communists, terrorists, what's different here other than the fact that what I'm saying is against your religion?

[keyboardlover]

I don't get what you mean by 'destructive' in this context. I guess most criticisms of anything are 'destructive' in nature. I'm sure if I discussed my 'destructive' opinions about holocaust deniers, I wouldn't have got the same response.

Or are you saying that nothing good can come out of what I'm saying? I think that discussing the bad points of an organization that reaped such evil upon so many people around the world is probably a good thing. Again, no one accuses people of being 'destructive' when they bad mouth fascists, communists, terrorists, what's different here other than the fact that what I'm saying is against your religion?

If you don't know what the word means, Google it. I can tell you already know how to use Google.

Anyway, what I meant is, what is the point of what you're saying? Is it destructive or constructive? Does it result in a change to benefit the greater good or not? Your points, I can guarantee, do not. Your "points" (opinions really) are fascistic.

[pex]

Anyway this is the way Muhammad dodges the punches.

Show Image

And the final word on whether Obama is muslim: here he is practicing to dodge the punches.  Case closed.

Show Image

I tried to read through this thread to see what purpose 6 pages of not answering the thread's question served (I agree that sometimes you have to spend time to break down tangential arguments which must be built as a foundation to examine the original question, but I'm not sure I could find that strategy here.)  I went from skimming to not bothering so I can just examine and respond to that original question.

Time to argue about Islam. I believe the mosque should not be built by Ground Zero. Do you?

Legally? Morally? Culturally?

I still have trouble grasping what the issue is.  If a landowner cares to rent or sell a property, and the buyer or tenant wants to make a islamic mosuqe or a multicultural center or blah blah, who are the complainers lobbying to?  Who is expected to stop this transaction?

Let's hit the other angles:
What authority in the US or NY constitutions provide a domestic power to prohibit the transaction or establishment?

Some say that certain things, like burning koran ceremonies or whatever other benign domestic thing (i assume including putting mosque at ground zero can be included) 'endanger our troops in iraq and afghanistan) and it becomes a national security issue.  Yet domestically, we say that police can generally not benefit from exegencies that they themselves have perpetrated for search and seizure purposes -- ununiformed persons flew a plane into a building in NYC, so: we now start a war in iraq and afghanistan and then say people at home can't be at liberty because of the exigency the fedgov created in war?  I don't think the US has that power.

Back to who the complainers are lobbying to: the landowner?  If the landowner has already contracted a sale or rental, what are these people asking to be done?  Breach a contract, damaging the fidelity of contracting between any people?

I just read in the paper some islam cleric dude was saying it's kind of ridiculous to call ground zero, whatever that really means, some sort of sacred ground because of the strip bar and other such things a block in the vicinity.  Which brings up the next question as to why or how this area is special in the first place:

people die from particular and unparticular tragedies, if we go on naming all of these tragedies and making specialized zones for them, america will die in any or several ways.

So for whatever reasons we might hate islam or think it's wrong, I don't see how we can avoid extending privileges/immunities/due-process/etc. to keep the government out of the affairs of free men, and the rest of the reason to make a big deal of it seems to have little value or goal.  (I can understand the court of public opinion and the forcing of economic choices by making it inconvenient or expensive to persue a goal, but I ultimately don't see how hampering the people up in arms really are for economic purposes.)

Boiled down, it seems to me that this has been entitled to press, taking up spaces in newspapers, solely for the purpose of not having to bother to report news that might make us a more civic and humane people.  Good job media, government, and friends of slavery, you've captured another day.

All non-perverted humans will probably agree that murder, rape, thievery,
lying, disrespect towards the elderly etc etc aren't Kosher , Halal or virtous ..

Well, we all know why someone isn't an overman.  What about the Nietschzeists?  Or are they just perverted?

[ch_123]

Your "points" (opinions really) are fascistic.

Ah, so if you don't like what the Catholic Church stands for, you're a fascist? There's something rather ironic about that statement, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

Oh well, I don't think I'm missing out on much.

[keyboardlover]

Ah, so if you don't like what the Catholic Church stands for, you're a fascist? There's something rather ironic about that statement, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

Oh well, I don't think I'm missing out on much.

It's not that you don't like it...it's what you think should happen to it. There's a lot of things that you seem to just 'not get'.

[Senor_Cartmenez]

First of all, everyone is wrong here and elsewhere.

The only religion that is right and thus the only religion that should be allowed to build a church at ground zero and elsewhere is this. Fact!

Go and be enlightened my brothers and sisters !




On a more serious note:
Religions are all the same. They are all centered around worshipping the sun, which is about as primitive as it gets. Nothing wrong with it, the sun is pretty awesome tbh. But we are a couple thousand years into the future nah. What's wrong with using those highly evolved brain cells and trying to come up with your own solution to all those nagging questions that religion has so "successfully" answered in a very mass-friendly manner that fits for just about anyone who is content with the answers provided by their favorite (or only taught to) religion and stops asking questions.

I for one have my own theory about the universe, why we here, what's good or wrong, etc. . Do I care to share it with you? Nah, not even close. U got to either be family, VERY close friends or have sucked my di** before we get to the point where I share that with you. But what I am willing to say is this: I believe in you brother or sister. I believe that you are able to, if you look deep inside yourself, find your own answers, your own theories and your very own "religion". Maybe with the aid of some drug of your choice (I highly recommend weed, it doesn't have those nasty side effects as other drugs, like total loss of reality sense, addiction or, well death) if it helps.

Until you try, I suggest to follow the guidance of the only "gods" you will ever personally meet and be able to interact with in this life: your parents.
Yes some gods are *******s and some god's guidance isn't worth ****. But for some reason, you ended up with each other. Find out why and find out what u can learn from this situation.

[ch_123]

Last time I read into fascism, you had a lot of people putting other people into gas chambers. I don't hate Catholics (would be very quickly out of friends in a country that is 95% Catholic) I just don't like what their Church preaches. The irony is that most Catholics ignore (either by choice or by ignorance) some of the less pleasant things they are meant to adhere to, so I don't think that disliking the church and disliking the followers are inextricably linked.

What do I think should happen to the Church? It seems here, and in other parts of Europe, people are waking up to the corruption and evil that the powers that were within the Church were largely ambivalent to. When people have all the information, and aren't bullied into Catholicism with threats of fire and brimstone, then we'll see what happens to it.

[pex]

On a more serious note:
Religions are all the same. They are all centered around worshipping the sun, which is about as primitive as it gets.

solar panels worship the sun and they tithe in electrons

[Lanx]

Last time I read into fascism, you had a lot of people putting other people into gas chambers. I don't hate Catholics (would be very quickly out of friends in a country that is 95% Catholic) I just don't like what their Church preaches. The irony is that most Catholics ignore (either by choice or by ignorance) some of the less pleasant things they are meant to adhere to, so I don't think that disliking the church and disliking the followers are inextricably linked.

What do I think should happen to the Church? It seems here, and in other parts of Europe, people are waking up to the corruption and evil that the powers that were within the Church were largely ambivalent to. When people have all the information, and aren't bullied into Catholicism with threats of fire and brimstone, then we'll see what happens to it.

ch_123, since keyboardlover cannot give you anything besides
Reread what i just wrote
Go google it
Your destructive (fingers in ears) (la, la,la i can't hear you and your blasphemy)
I'll take the general stance on the church!

My fiancee and I are aethiests, sorta kinda raised this way and allowed to be whatever. Though sometimes we see our friends and some are very structured and regimented having gone to sunday school every 7th day and mass. While some are messed up and we really don't associate with them anymore, I mean not all the fruit in the basket is fresh.
We do think, what if we have kids? We could force them into Christianity, it would give them structure and "force" a wall upon them. For instance i'm petrified to have kids, more so to have a teenage girl, cuz well you know. However, if i raised her Christian since the day she was born, she'd be all saving herself like jessica simpson and she'd resist everything, because every fiber in her being would tell her not to, or the "lord" will smite her.
Of course there is also the whacked way the church thinks, that a condom is an affront to the "lord" so it's ok to get pregnant outside of wedlock and it's ok to contract hundreds of STD's and AIDS cuz we all know boys are very clean and are in tune with "pulling out" why look at bristol palin... ok well, she didn't get married but after 1 year of annoying the boy she did... well ok he called it off again...
But thats what I call republican Christianity, the nutjob way where even if they say you got raped and got pregger, you have to have the kid no matter what.
I don't personally know these nutjob republic christians, i guess i know normal christians.
For instance my fiancee has this work friend(you know girlfriend) and she has a husband, we hang out together. She is really religious, she's also Spanish, so she's got that "lord is our savior" thing going.
How religious is she? she prays at every meal, no biggie right? She has 2 huskies, these dogs are cool she loves them like children, to the extent that her own sister was renting out a room and she said to her sister, the dogs are above you in status. I mean she really loves these dogs, she won't let her own mother watch the dogs or any family for that matter and she'll only let the expensive 50$ a day per dog kennel watch over them. (she'll let me watch over them tho cuz i'm apparently the only person she's seen that can control them)
Anyway, anytime we're over and it's doggie feeding time, she'll put food in their bowl, hold their snouts, and pray with them!
I mean she's a nice person, not someone you want to work with however, cuz she cares about family a lot so she'll put family above work, if you care about work, you want to get it done right?
Anyway she's never judged us, lives a balanced life and is generally happy, gogo christian power!

[keyboardlover]

Lol, well you both seem to be of about equal intelligence. You should get together sometime and go bowling or something

Both of your knowledge about the Church and Catholics and how they are raised is flawed. It's not the same way everywhere. Should I repeat myself again?

[Senor_Cartmenez]

For instance i'm petrified to have kids, more so to have a teenage girl, cuz well you know. However, if i raised her Christian since the day she was born, she'd be all saving herself like jessica simpson and she'd resist everything, because every fiber in her being would tell her not to, or the "lord" will smite her.

Hate to break it to you like this brah (and potentially increasing ur unjustified fear of having a teenage daughter, life's life y'know?) but:

Good luck with that theory. I have had a roommate at university who was the daughter of a pastor (that term exist in english? a church dude, y'all know what I mean).
That girl was the nastiest slut I have ever met in my life (and no I did not touch that with a broom stick). There was literally another dude in her room every friggin night and they hit it off crazy loud. Believe me, you stop getting turned on by that after the first week at the utmost.

I have spoken to some friends who are in deep with the church but don't seem all thet christiany to me. I asked them what they think about that story and if it's common. They were kinda grinning at me knowingly. It all fits anyway. Churches usually have some sort of youth programs and stuff where the "good young future christians" can meet and do "young christian stuff" without being monitored by adults all the time. Don't know bout the US but that's very common here in Germany.

They do some activities like helping some elderly and stuff like that and after a while, the "old and wise christians" of the church appoint a few "good young christians" who are closing in on or are above 18. Once they are, they are given the responsibility and freedom to organize activities with the young christians. Parties are acceptable as well these days. And boy oh boy I have attended one of those new year's eve parties in the christian youth community around nah. **** is nasty there. Extreme underage drinking (which is extremely common in Germany but one wouldn't expect in a christian community house) and all the other party goodies (puking, flashing, making out and all the other good stuff).

Anywho, what I am trying to say is:
1) Raising your child conservative christian, will not stop a teenage girl from becoming a slut if she so chooses. On the contrary, those extreme restrictions may very well make it all the more interesting for a teenager to try out that "forbidden stuff". Depending on the character of the teenager, it may very well be the only reason why they want to try out that "forbidden stuff" (don't discount the need to rebel etc.)...
2)Religion has never been worth much if the person is not ready and willing to embrace it. Certainly in this modern day and age an ever so dwindling number of people is actually ready and willing to accept it. They do the deed of going to church, getting baptized and stuff like that, because it's what their surrounding (often their family) expects and dictates. But they don't give a flying **** about what they are told. The moment they are on their own feet and make their own decisions, most of that stuff goes out the window.

I honestly believe the only reason why christianity still is slightly relevant, is because there are so damn many old people in western society (particularly europe) and they hold so damn much economic power. In a few decades all those folks are gone and christianity will continue it's slow but steady demise. It will never vanish mind you, there will always be people who need their fix and can't do it by themselves. But it will lose more and more relevance.

Same goes for Islam, those folks are just a couple (hundred?) years behind western society (I say this hating myself for sounding like an arrogant redneck ******* but they are. Not in everything mind you, but certainly in terms of relevance of religion).

[quadibloc]

Your "points" (opinions really) are fascistic.

I looked through this thread, and I couldn't see where he proposed how to get rid of the Catholic religion through sterilizing the Catholics, or taking away their children, or killing them. That would be fascist.

The harm that has been done in the name of the Christian religion is a matter of historical record, so I wouldn't say that it is merely a matter of opinion.

The thing is, though, that Christianity in general today has ethical standards far superior to those of the paganism it supplanted. Which is why Western Civilization was able to develop into what it is today, in its technical competence and in its tolerance.

One might think of Christianity, and other forms of "revealed religion", as a scaffolding that helped our civilization to be built; but one removes the scaffolding when the building is completed. But you can't just snap your fingers and make a religion disappear.

For those raised in a religious faith, that faith forms the basis on which their moral judgements of right and wrong rest. And religion provides a simple explanation of why we should do what is right; we are the children of a Heavenly Father who loves us, and we should not disappoint Him by misbehaving.

If you take this out from under people at the wrong age, or out from under people who aren't really bright enough to accept philosophical reasons for ethical behavior... what you can get is people who see no reason not to lie, cheat, and steal whenever they can get away with it, or, worse yet, people who think that other people can be killed, tortured, forcibly bred, and whatever else might serve the long-term interest of the human race as defined by them.

If most of religion is nonsense as worthless as bathwater, let's not throw out the precious gift of caring about our fellow human beings along with that nonsense.

And...

We know that we are conscious beings. We see what we see, we hear what we hear, we feel what we feel. We're not empty hollow biological computing mechanisms that go about the business of survival without anyone "there". Right now, our understanding of the mechanisms of this world, impressive though it is, still gives us no clue as to how such a thing can be.

There is, thus, a little room for spirituality to infuse our sense of ethics.

[ch_123]

Lol, well you both seem to be of about equal intelligence. You should get together sometime and go bowling or something

Both of your knowledge about the Church and Catholics and how they are raised is flawed. It's not the same way everywhere. Should I repeat myself again?

Please don't, I'm getting somewhat bored of listening to you.

The irony is that you accuse me of not respecting your opinions, and as I elaborate on them further and further, your counters become more childish and lacking in substance, relying on ad hominem attacks, and refuting things I haven't even said.

Not the same everywhere? Well, given the amount of abuse (whether it be of children, money, truth or otherwise) that the Catholic Church (and not just some bad blood on the ground) stands over in Europe, in America, in Africa and really just about everywhere else, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, to put it mildly.

[itlnstln]

Where's Webwit when you need him?

[keyboardlover]

I looked through this thread, and I couldn't see where he proposed how to get rid of the Catholic religion through sterilizing the Catholics, or taking away their children, or killing them. That would be fascist.

I think that believing that a particular religion "needs to end" can be considered fascist.

The irony is that you accuse me of not respecting your opinions, and as I elaborate on them further and further, your counters become more childish and lacking in substance, relying on ad hominem attacks, and refuting things I haven't even said.

Not the same everywhere? Well, given the amount of abuse (whether it be of children, money, truth or otherwise) that the Catholic Church (and not just some bad blood on the ground) stands over in Europe, in America, in Africa and really just about everywhere else, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, to put it mildly.

When did I accuse you of not respecting my opinions? I merely stated relevant points, you countered with pointless examples of past issues caused by the Church. And again, if we're talking about abuse, why aren't we talking about any other religion for that matter? I think whatever "point" you're trying to make is pointless.

EDIT: and If I'm wrong, make your one and only point in your next post. Everyone can gauge its validity.

[wellington1869]

Where's Webwit when you need him?

I think we're doing just fine beating each other up without him

[wellington1869]

solar panels worship the sun and they tithe in electrons

lol, sweet.

frankly i think if we went back to literally worshipping the sun we'd all be better off. And trees. And rivers and lakes.

[wellington1869]

the human race needs a good old fashioned dance around the may pole.

[ch_123]

I think that believing that a particular religion "needs to end" can be considered fascist.

So, what do you think about crazy cults?

When did I accuse you of not respecting my opinions? I merely stated relevant points, you countered with pointless examples of past issues caused by the Church.

Well actually, given that I discussed examples of the Church screwing things up in Africa, that's not right. That, and the church still hasn't satisfactorily atoned for its past crimes.

As much as I am sure that the Church would love everyone to forget the sort of stuff it was/still is involved in, since when did the crimes carried out by the church become 'pointless'? I haven't seen any skinhead groups gassing Jews lately, is the holocaust a 'pointless example of past issues' caused by fascists?

And again, if we're talking about abuse, why aren't we talking about any other religion for that matter? I think whatever "point" you're trying to make is pointless.

Welly seems to have the Muslim angle covered, and I haven't read into other religions enough to make valid opinions about it.

EDIT: and If I'm wrong, make your one and only point in your next post. Everyone can gauge its validity.

I've made my point quite a few times already. You're the only one that has issue with it, so yeah, maybe you should take your own advice and read it again or Google it or something.

[chimera15]

Last time I read into fascism, you had a lot of people putting other people into gas chambers. I don't hate Catholics (would be very quickly out of friends in a country that is 95% Catholic) I just don't like what their Church preaches. The irony is that most Catholics ignore (either by choice or by ignorance) some of the less pleasant things they are meant to adhere to, so I don't think that disliking the church and disliking the followers are inextricably linked.

What do I think should happen to the Church? It seems here, and in other parts of Europe, people are waking up to the corruption and evil that the powers that were within the Church were largely ambivalent to. When people have all the information, and aren't bullied into Catholicism with threats of fire and brimstone, then we'll see what happens to it.

Fascism is really all about a completely analytical way to dissect a society.  It's what happens when you put science in charge of a society. It strictly labels people based on race, class, wealth, religion, and most importantly capabilities and intelligence.  As such it has some redeeming and good qualities as a form of government.  It's when it's taken to extremes, just as all forms of government that things go really wrong.

 You look at the Nazi's before the war, and before they started killing their own populace, as a form of government it served to completely turn around what was essentially becoming a third world country in the heart of Europe.  Even during the war and losing completely as a society looking at scientific advancement they completely outpaced any culture that's ever been on earth in inventiveness and scientific accomplishment.

The problem really was that the Nazi's combined Fascism with Eugenics and then it got super evil.   The interesting thing is though, and there is evidence today that the Germans actually are benefiting from the purging of those that the Nazi's labeled as deviant or unfit relative to other cultures.  So in some way Hitler was correct, if an evil sob.

[Senor_Cartmenez]

Nazis made the trains run on time.

Didn't last very long though, try catch a train of the omnipotent "Deutsche Bahn" on time. You will be sadly disappointed.

"The interesting thing is though, and there is evidence today that the Germans actually are benefiting from the purging of those that the Nazi's labeled as deviant or unfit relative to other cultures."

This statement would get you in a lot of trouble if u said that over nah. In fact we currently have a person that is vastly more powerful than you, having to step down from his really high position, cause he made similarly short-sighted remarks in a book he recently published... Tread lightly brah

What happened, happened. That doesn't mean that effects that are benefiting society today should be connected with something the Nazis did. If you really want to do that, then say that the Autobahn (our superior "highways" or "speedways" as you may call them) was something good the Nazis did for Germany.

I highly doubt that they needed the Nazis to accomplish that feat though. I am sure some other dude with a short moustache, side parting and weird austrian accent would have accomplished that eventually.


Btw.: Godwin's law, never heard of it, loving (and living) it already

[chimera15]

Bringing it back to the discussion.  I always found it interesting that Iran actually means Arlan, and that's where Iran got it's name, from it's alliance with the Nazi party during ww2.

[keyboardlover]

I've made my point quite a few times already. You're the only one that has issue with it, so yeah, maybe you should take your own advice and read it again or Google it or something.

I knew you couldn't do it. Hence why it's pointless.

[chimera15]

Didn't last very long though, try catch a train of the omnipotent "Deutsche Bahn" on time. You will be sadly disappointed.

"The interesting thing is though, and there is evidence today that the Germans actually are benefiting from the purging of those that the Nazi's labeled as deviant or unfit relative to other cultures."

This statement would get you in a lot of trouble if u said that over nah. In fact we currently have a person that is vastly more powerful than you, having to step down from his really high position, cause he made similarly short-sighted remarks in a book he recently published... Tread lightly brah

What happened, happened. That doesn't mean that effects that are benefiting society today should be connected with something the Nazis did. If you really want to do that, then say that the Autobahn (our superior "highways" or "speedways" as you may call them) was something good the Nazis did for Germany.

I highly doubt that they needed the Nazis to accomplish that feat though. I am sure some other dude with a short moustache, side parting and weird austrian accent would have accomplished that eventually.


Btw.: Godwin's law, never heard of it, loving (and living) it already

A fact is a fact.  If a country suffers less from bad eyesight, or less baldness now than before half it's population was killed, let alone birth defects and relatively better health than other nations after compared to before, that can't really be disputed.  However bad it might seem, and go against the popular belief that everything related to Hitler was bad and evil.


The Nazi's changed the world in a lot positive ways and did a lot for what became Germany of today, let alone the rest of the world, and the massive amount of science and technical accomplishment that occurred under the Nazi regime.  Hell, we would nave never made it to the moon or had any interest in doing so if it wasn't for the Nazi's, and alone spurred thousands of more inventions and development that helped the world, saved lives, and fed people.  The computer's we're  using today are a large part because of the miniaturization that occurred as a result of the space race.  You could easily make the argument that if it wasn't for the Nazi's and fascism the internet wouldn't have existed.

The autobahn not only was good for Germany, it spurred and served as a model for the interstates in America as well.

[chimera15]

Yup, they are, or at least were.  I found it amazing when I learned about it myself.  They're really more of a theocracy right now of course.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:LwpC2NmpkksJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Iranian_relations+iran+nazi&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

"The Shah went on to ask the international community to use the native name of "Iran" in 1935[10] to address to his country, which in Persian means 'Land of the Aryans' and refers to Airyanem Vaejah, the Avestan name of the original homeland of the Aryans."

[keyboardlover]

Yup, they are, or at least were.  I found it amazing when I learned about it myself.  They're really more of a theocracy right now of course.

"The Shah went on to ask the international community to use the native name of "Iran" in 1935[10] to address to his country, which in Persian means 'Land of the Aryans' and refers to Airyanem Vaejah, the Avestan name of the original homeland of the Aryans."

It's well known that Ahmandinijad (sp?) is an outspoken denier of the Holocaust.

[chimera15]

It's well known that Ahmandinijad (sp?) is an outspoken denier of the Holocaust.

Well, that's just cause of the Jew hating thing that happened after the war...lol  Both segments of Iraq and Iran had alliances with Germany before and during the war though.  The allies had to actually fight Iraq during ww2 for control there because the germans had outfitted them with tanks and planes.

[pex]

Nazis made the trains run on time.

I wonder how the Japanese do it?

One word: Ainu.

[ch_123]

I knew you couldn't do it. Hence why it's pointless.

Since you seem to have some sort of attention span issue -

Catholicism is a disguisting dinosaur religion

The mass is over. Thanks be to God

Even the priests saw the irony in that one.

[keyboardlover]

Since you seem to have some sort of attention span issue -

The mass is over. Thanks be to God

Even the priests saw the irony in that one.

Are you done beating a dead horse?

[ch_123]

Apparently you weren't up until the point you ran out of ideas. But by all means, keep going, I'm dying to see what comes next.

[ricercar]

:pop2: