Author Topic: [RIP] No More Elvish (Sindarin) Keycap Set  (Read 123706 times)

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Offline samwisekoi

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Our goal all along has been to try and get the raw 'caps below $99, so we need more orders.

If only I had Peter Jackson's e-mail...

 - Ron | samwisekoi
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

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Offline eRadicatedZomBiE

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With any luck, once the Rain Drop and Toxic GBs wrap up, people will take a flyer on the Sindarin set and help to drive prices down.  Either way, it's a cool set, I think it would look boss on a board with a dark green anodized case.  That's my plan, anyhow!   :))

Yea, you're not kidding, this set would look great on any keyboard. I just hope it's popularity rises, I'd really like this set.
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Offline FabsSpeed

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I really would like to see this on my board soon! Lets get this on the way,...
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Offline stoic-lemon

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I can't remember if I actually ordered a set after I asked about the shipping price. Can you jog my memory? I'm trying to catch up on what goodies I have coming this year (and which ones I can order more of).

I'll probably be in for the samwisekoi GH60 plate too :) .

Offline samwisekoi

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I can't remember if I actually ordered a set after I asked about the shipping price. Can you jog my memory? I'm trying to catch up on what goodies I have coming this year (and which ones I can order more of).

I'll probably be in for the samwisekoi GH60 plate too :) .

You did and we are up to 32 sets!

 - Ron | samwisekoi
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline eRadicatedZomBiE

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Hey I've ordered a set. Was there talk about a numpad add on? How do I get one if those? Also my phone isn't in great reception I just want to make sure my order went through, thank you.
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Offline WhiteFireDragon

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So what exactly are we waiting for with  this GB? If it's lack of time from the organizers to dedicated to this GB, that's totally fine with me. But if it's just stalling time so that we might reach 50 sets, then I think we should just invoice and submit the order. It took a really long time to build up to 30 sets, and most of these people were the initial ones interested. Waiting for the last 18 will take a very long time, if it happens at all.

I'm ok with paying an extra $15 to get this many months sooner than waiting for it to reach 50 sets. I'm not complaining, just throwing out my thoughts.

Offline megnin

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How about OP posting the current cost vs the proposed >= 50 sets cost and get a consensus from the people with orders whether they want to pay the higher cost or wait and hope more people order?

Perhaps advertise/promote the set a bit more on GH and DT to get those extra orders?
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Offline samwisekoi

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So what exactly are we waiting for with  this GB? If it's lack of time from the organizers to dedicated to this GB, that's totally fine with me. But if it's just stalling time so that we might reach 50 sets, then I think we should just invoice and submit the order. It took a really long time to build up to 30 sets, and most of these people were the initial ones interested. Waiting for the last 18 will take a very long time, if it happens at all.

I'm ok with paying an extra $15 to get this many months sooner than waiting for it to reach 50 sets. I'm not complaining, just throwing out my thoughts.

It is completely down to time availability on the part of the organizers.  Plus a certain reluctance to get ourselves tied up with so many concurrent buys we cannot ship them.

Also, it is possible that we are seeing if there is a way for these to be thick PBT...  Hard with low volume, but we are seeing what can be done in the wide world.

However, since this is such a small buy, I can close it off and send out invoices now if people prefer.

Ok.  Order deadline is April 5.  Payment deadline will be April 12.

Good?

 - Ron | samwisekoi


p.s.  While I was typing...

How about OP posting the current cost vs the proposed >= 50 sets cost and get a consensus from the people with orders whether they want to pay the higher cost or wait and hope more people order?

Perhaps advertise/promote the set a bit more on GH and DT to get those extra orders?

No, in this I agree with WFD.  We won't get to the next tier unless we get a bulk order.  Anybody know Peter Jackson?
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

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Offline esoomenona

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Maybe we could push that out further? I've had money planned in certain group buys, and wasn't anticipating this one to push forward so soon...

Offline mashby

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Since I'm a geekhack key cap collector, I'm curious if just the "geek hack" key caps will be available in a separate pack?

If not, would anyone be interested in selling me theirs?

Offline jdcarpe

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Since I'm a geekhack key cap collector, I'm curious if just the "geek hack" key caps will be available in a separate pack?

If not, would anyone be interested in selling me theirs?

Yes, the "Geek Hack" keys are available separately, for only $109.15. Every "Geek Hack" keycap pack sold comes with a free set of Sindarin TKL keycaps!

:D
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Offline esoomenona

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:­D DEALS!!

Offline Matt3o

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No Geekhack key. ESC will be translated into Elvish.

Offline mashby

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No Geekhack key. ESC will be translated into Elvish.

My wallet and my wife thanks you Matt3o.  :-*

Offline Halverson

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No Geekhack key. ESC will be translated into Elvish.

Esc in elvish, or geek hack into elvish?

Offline Matt3o

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esc in elvish

Offline samwisekoi

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esc in elvish

The thread is unclear on this point.We'll fix that. Matt3o is making the final SVG now, so what he designs is what will be made.

In the meantime, we'll tell Mashby the escape key 'says' Geek Hack in Elvish.  Limited edition, and still cheaper than a CC.

 - Ron I samwisekoi
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline Halverson

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esc in elvish

The thread is unclear on this point.We'll fix that. Matt3o is making the final SVG now, so what he designs is what will be made.

In the meantime, we'll tell Mashby the escape key 'says' Geek Hack in Elvish.  Limited edition, and still cheaper than a CC.

 - Ron I samwisekoi

lolol oh you! I'll pretend to believe that as well :D

Offline Matt3o

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okay guys, I have an incredible news for you.

I've found a Chinese manufacturer that could do this in PBT double-shot at more or less the same price! Spacebar included! I believe we should take this opportunity right away also considering today's date!


Offline Halverson

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okay guys, I have an incredible news for you.

I've found a Chinese manufacturer that could do this in PBT double-shot at more or less the same price! Spacebar included! I believe we should take this opportunity right away also considering today's date!

April fools! Too good to be true!

Offline stoic-lemon

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That's just mean.

Offline ksm123

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What corpus linguistics of Sindarin did you use to analyse runes frequencies to come up with layout that will be comfortable for writing in Elvish?

Offline cytoSiN

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What corpus linguistics of Sindarin did you use to analyse runes frequencies to come up with layout that will be comfortable for writing in Elvish?

This entire GB/thread is pretty geeky, but this question raises the bar.  +1 for you sir.
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Offline Matt3o

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What corpus linguistics of Sindarin did you use to analyse runes frequencies to come up with layout that will be comfortable for writing in Elvish?

common sense and a lot of trial and error.

Offline stoic-lemon

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What corpus linguistics of Sindarin did you use to analyse runes frequencies to come up with layout that will be comfortable for writing in Elvish?

This entire GB/thread is pretty geeky, but this question raises the bar.  +1 for you sir.
Haha my thoughts exactly.

Offline Tarzan

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What corpus linguistics of Sindarin did you use to analyse runes frequencies to come up with layout that will be comfortable for writing in Elvish?

This entire GB/thread is pretty geeky, but this question raises the bar.  +1 for you sir.
Haha my thoughts exactly.

There certainly are a variety of writings on the subject of Sindarin.

http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/bibliography.htm

But I think this caveat sums up the discussion quite succinctly;

"Remember that the reconstructed forms are only hypothetical and should not be treated as certain."

http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/sindarin_intro.htm

(On the topic of linguistics, my dad used to tell us about the college courses in Elven-tongue that were offered in California.  Googling college course-work + Elven tongue leads down quite a rabbit hole:

http://www.elvish.org/resources.html)


Offline Matt3o

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This might be the final design

17798-0

Let me sum up what led us to this layout, why it is cool and why you should have it.

TL;DR
There's no TL;DR, if you are geek enough to buy this set you should find the time to read this text! :P

Forewords
Please bear in mind that I'm no Elvish expert. I love Tolkien's work since before it was cool, I'm one of the few who actually read the Silmarillion, I did a lot of research for this keyboard but it is not guaranteed to be 100% flawless or functional.

Elvish, Elven, Sindarin, Quenya, ...
A bit of clarification regarding elven languages we are using here.

We are commonly calling the language of the Elves "Elvish" just for the sake of simplicity and because as Humans we are arrogant. Elf is a race, such as Human (or simply Man). You don't call the language of Humans "Humanish". I find extremely rude to use "Elvish", unless you want to be derogatory on purpose (like the Nazgul calling Arwen "she-elf"). I think "Elven Tongue" is the proper way to reference to the languages of the Elves.

Note that I said "languages". As we speak a wide variety of languages (English, Italian, Korean, Russian, ...) in the same way Elves speak Telerin, Eldarin, Quenya, Sindarin, Nondorin, ...

While maybe Quenya would have been a better choice (it means litterarly "elf-language") we chose Sindarin because we have a wider vocabulary for this equally sophisticated language. Sindar Elves (or Grey Elves) stayed longer in the land of mortals so presumably they had more time (and need) to design a keyboard (can't believe I wrote that...).

Tengwar
Tengwar is the writing system (script) used by Elves. You can think of it like the Latin letters of ours, or the Japanese Kanji.

Even though all Elves use Tengwar (as far as I know), there are of course differences between Quenya Tengwar and Sindarin Tengwar, in the same way there are differences between written Italian and written French.

For this keyboard we use Tengwar Sindarin in the Mode of Beleriand, mainly because it's the phonetic used in the West Gate of Moria, or Doors of Durin. You remember "Pedo Mellon a Minno" (Speak, friend, and enter), right?

Keyboard layouts
Tolkien used tengwar a lot to phonetically transliterate English, it would have been relatively easy to use Tokien's English-to-Tengwar chart to make the keyboard design.

Take the first tengwar

which sounds like "T" in "Tie". We could have used this sound in place of the letter T on the keyboard.

Same goes for "P" like in "Pie"


... and so on.

This method is simple and could be used to write your name in Tengwar but it presents a series of problems. The first one being conceptual. The idea was to create a keyboard designed by Elves, not by some Italian (me) or American (samwisekoi) guy willing to write "Elvish" (intended).

Secondly, English transliteration doesn't use some of the Tengwar.

Thirdly, we do not all speak English and each language would need a different transliteration (hence a different layout). For example the sound:


would be J (as in "Jive") in English, but G in Italian.

Lastly, we also wanted a stylish and pleasant to watch keyboard.

An alternative would have been to use Daniel Smith's charts. Most of this project is based on Dan's work. He created a windows font to write Sindarin and Quenya and he already found a smart way to write tengwar with a standard keyboard. A key set with Dan's chart would let you write Sindarin by just installing his font. What we didn't like about this method is that the keyboard layout looks like crap.

The One Layout (to rule them all)
We tried half a dozen layouts (have a look at the IC thread) and at the end I believe we found a good compromise.

The main Tengwar sounds are all consonants and are strictly classified. Have a look at the first tengwar symbols.


They are placed in a grid of 4 columns by 6 rows. Tengwar symbols reduce in "relevance" on higher rows, so the most important sounds are found at the beginning of the grid.

Now have a look at the keyboard layout above. You'll find in our QWERTY row: tinco - parma - calma - quesse - ando - umbar - anga- ungwe

So the first alpha row of the keyboard contains the most important tengwar and all other tengwar are ordered in the same manner in the rows below. It is extremely easy to find a sound if you have a tengwar chart by your side. It's not a layout for touch typists, it's more for learning Sindarin, but I believe that this rational layout would receive Elrond's approval.

Tehtar, numbers and other symbols
We already said that the main tengwar are all consonants. What about the vowels?

Vowels are represented by Tehtar which are those small symbols (accents) above or below the tengwa. In our layout you'll find most of the Tehtar to the right of the keyboard together with punctuation. Some tehtar are strictly bound to a tengwa, such as the small curl in "malta" (on the X key). You can do those tehtar with shift+key.

Additional tengwar are in the number row, while all numbers are performed with shift+key.

Modifiers
Most of the modifiers have been translated into Sindarin. Of course we had to use a bit of imagination, but overall it worked pretty well. The followings are the mods translation.

Modifier > Sindarin > Actual meaning
Escape > awarthol > abandon
Alt > seidiol > set aside
Control > torthol > control
Back space > dravol > hew
Insert > nestagel > insert
Delete > dagel > slay
Home > bâr > home
End > meth > end
Page Up > ambenn > up
Page Down > dadbenn > down

I hope all of this makes sense and answers all your questions regarding this wonderful keycap-set. All in all this should be considered as an otaku keyboard with (Elven) benefits. It could be used to write Sindarin (or even Quenya) but it needs a lot of time and dedication.

If there's enough interest I might find some time to make a tutorial on how to actually write with this keyboard.
« Last Edit: Thu, 04 April 2013, 09:54:53 by Matt3o »

Offline esoomenona

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I love you guys. Even though I will never use this keyboard to type in Sindarin, I truly appreciate the effort that was made for it to be true.

Offline findingthelimit

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i'd buy it if there's a version that has numpad!
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Offline cytoSiN

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I love you guys. Even though I will never use this keyboard to type in Sindarin, I truly appreciate the effort that was made for it to be true.

^  This.  100x this.  This is basically the ultimate set of blank/ninja keycaps for me, which I will use to type solely in boring English.  But it's so worth it knowing what it really represents.
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Offline Tarzan

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I love you guys. Even though I will never use this keyboard to type in Sindarin, I truly appreciate the effort that was made for it to be true.

+1

 :D

Offline samwisekoi

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i'd buy it if there's a version that has numpad!

We designed a number pad, but the volume is so incredibly low it didn't seem worth it.

However, if adding the number pad pulls the total over 50 sets, then it would be free.  Do you have 19 friends?

 - Ron | samwisekoi
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline Halverson

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i'd buy it if there's a version that has numpad!

We designed a number pad, but the volume is so incredibly low it didn't seem worth it.

However, if adding the number pad pulls the total over 50 sets, then it would be free.  Do you have 19 friends?

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Show Image


Add that to the title. "19 more people join, get a free set of numpad caps!" hehe

Offline esoomenona

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What is the cost with a numpad in the set, as a whole set?

Offline Tarzan

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i'd buy it if there's a version that has numpad!

We designed a number pad, but the volume is so incredibly low it didn't seem worth it.

However, if adding the number pad pulls the total over 50 sets, then it would be free.  Do you have 19 friends?

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Show Image


I'n not sure if I was around when the IC was run, but I would definitely be interested in a number pad.  Most of my keyboards are 104-key, that's my preferred layout.

Offline samwisekoi

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What is the cost with a numpad in the set, as a whole set?

Getting quotes for 104 now. Orders will be extended until this question is answered.

Also, big props to Matt3o for the Sindarin lesson.  Please read it!

 - Ron I samwisekoi
I like keyboards and case modding.  Everything about a computer should be silent -- except the KEYBOARD!

'85 IBM F-122/Soarer Keyboard |  Leopold FC200 TKL (Browns) + GH36 Keypad (Browns/Greens) | GH-122 (Whites/Greens) with Nuclear Data Green keycaps in a Unicomp case

Offline stoic-lemon

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Thermonuclear knowledge bomb.
Wow, I really appreciate the thought that has gone into this. That was a great read, I learned a lot. Thank you so much, it is really appreciated. I'm sure this set is going to look incredible when it becomes a reality.

Offline findingthelimit

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i'd buy it if there's a version that has numpad!

We designed a number pad, but the volume is so incredibly low it didn't seem worth it.

However, if adding the number pad pulls the total over 50 sets, then it would be free.  Do you have 19 friends?

 - Ron | samwisekoi
Show Image


I'n not sure if I was around when the IC was run, but I would definitely be interested in a number pad.  Most of my keyboards are 104-key, that's my preferred layout.

Actually, I'm happy to pay a little extra for a version with a number pad as well. I thought there isn't a numpad version available at all, but it turns out that there is one, except it costs a little more?
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Offline Kempher

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I would also pay a little extra for a numpad.
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Offline eRadicatedZomBiE

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Now that the buying time is "over" what are the final numbers?

Also...

I would also pay a little extra for a numpad.

I wouldn't mind a quote on that to see if it was realistic
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Offline Matt3o

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we are working on it. we will send an update really soon.

latest news is that we could have a full set dyesub'ed from Imsto (instead of SP) at a fraction of the price. The caveat is that the caps would be all white (no green mods) and we would have a MOQ of 50.

sorry guys for this taking so long, but overall interest has been extremely low and other tasks took precedence.

Offline esoomenona

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I would prefer green mods for the price. There are enough imsto sets floating around, I don't need another bland set.

Edit: maybe bland is the wrong word. They're nice caps, but this set with the green mods is great. IF we could get two tone with green from imsto, now THAT would be amazing, but methinks not.
« Last Edit: Sat, 06 April 2013, 04:26:33 by esoomenona »

Offline Matt3o

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I would prefer green mods for the price. There are enough imsto sets floating around, I don't need another bland set.

the price ratio is 1:3. just saying.

Offline esoomenona

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Really!? How? We just spent $80+ a piece for the last group buy. Hell, even a blank set was $55!

Offline Matt3o

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the price you see in the OP is for barebone production cost. the final price is higher than that.

Offline esoomenona

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So what would you estimate (just very rough, I understand nothing it precise. Feel free to overestimate somewhat) a final price may be if we closed this right now for the set we've been discussing this whole time?

Offline Matt3o

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let's wait for samwisekoi to wake up :)

Offline maxmalkav

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let's wait for samwisekoi to wake up :)

Not sure, but the Imsto option could change the whole deal. Maybe, from a esthetic point of view, some people will back off, but a much lower price may encourage others that were not considering the option (like me, not interesting in a nice and exotic but quite "expensive" DS set, but a cheaper PBT and dyesub option it's way far more attractive, despite the lack of green modifiers). Unfortunately, I'm already in too many GBs and I have to cut expenses!


Offline stoic-lemon

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It wouldn't put me off. I'd still be in.