Flat key cap set progress thread. (Help me choose a color!)

[P3TC0CK]

Hi all,

Just making this post as a continuation of my new member post. I'll be putting any progress/updates I make on this project in this thread. I hope that this project ends up creating a great  set of keys that I can eventually produce for others to enjoy.

Any help or suggestions are welcome.

My to-do list:

• Make prototypes of the keys
• Find or Create a font with no breaks
• Manufacture my first set of keys
• Find an Arabic font for alternative text

I have decided for the sake of simplicity that the first set of keys will be blank if produced. Given the flat nature of the keycaps, you can easily take any keyboard language sticker set and apply it to your keys. I'll mostly likely be doing this since I have not memorized every key.

FAQ:

• Doesn't Signature Plastics already make this with their G20 key caps and flat keys?

Kind of. They do make 1 x 1 keys in the g20 and Flat key style, but they don't make any other key nor do they plan to do so at any set date. I don't want to wait for them to produce them, so I went ahead and did it myself.

If you can find keys like the ones I plan to make, please let me know.

• I like the idea, but it doesn't have (insert non US QWERTY key here). Can you add that?

Sure, I'd love to. If you can get my the specifications for your key I can get it designed and added to the final set.

• What advantage does a fully flat keyboard provide? Is this style of keyboard any better than a standard 'sculpted' keyboard?

I'm not going to make any claims about this key cap set about benefits or advantages over conventional keyboards.

 Friends have mentioned to me that it may be good for games that require multiple, simultaneous button presses and be good for those who want easy travel across their keyboard. It may also be much more easy to keep clean as the space for dirt and other particles to get in between the keys is much smaller. The surface is uniform so it should not be difficult to wipe clean.

That's all speculation.  For me, a flat keyboard is simply something I prefer when typing or using a computer for both aesthetics and comfort. 



Thank you to:

Martin Anel for modeling the keys.
/u/Belgan_waffles on reddit for pointing me the appropriate informartion.
/u/Landrei for providing me information on the keyboard I will be putting these on before I had it.

[nubbinator]

Have you looked at Devlin at all?  They already produce some flat caps like that:  http://www.devlin.co.uk/products/components/keycaps.html

[P3TC0CK]

Have you looked at Devlin at all?  They already produce some flat caps like that:  http://www.devlin.co.uk/products/components/keycaps.html

No I have not, it was pretty hard to find similar keys online and /r/Mechanicalkeyboards didn't respond to my initial interest posts.

I think the closest thing Devlin have available is their "top hat" keys and even then those keys have a slight incline with an odd border around the bottom.

My goal is to make a flat, uniform surface and to minimize the space between the keys as well. I also want to include text and font on them rather than just producing blank keycaps.

[P3TC0CK]

I've gotten an estimate for the prototypes and it will be something like 150 USD for 8 keys. It's a bit too much for my current budget and the shop in question won't do single pieces, so I'll continue looking for another place to print some test pieces out from.

Edit: Most likely will be using shapeways. Even with 20 dollar shipping the keyset is significantly cheaper.

Edit 2: Shapeways will cost ~25 dollars to print a full set plus an extra key plus 20 dollars shipping. I'll most likely wait until I have a full set of keys with lettering to print out a couple of those as well.

[P3TC0CK]

Considering 3 fonts at this point:

Font 1

Font 2

Font 3

There's currently 2 font sets I prefer from the three, but I'm not sure which one is the best. If you guys like any of them let me know and I'll consider your opinion

[paicrai]

here are my 2 cents and some pocket lint: there's a small 3d printer called Cube that apparently is more available and priced for the common public http://cubify.com/en/Cube

[P3TC0CK]

here are my 2 cents and some pocket lint: there's a small 3d printer called Cube that apparently is more available and priced for the common public http://cubify.com/en/Cube

I wish I could afford something like that, not everyone is rich in Dubai heh 

I'm definitely saving up for one in the near future though, there's just so much I want to make.

[P3TC0CK]

I've started messaging manufacturers in China to get an estimate on how much it would cost to produce a 10-20 sets of this key cap set. Either in ABS or PBT if the price is reasonable.

I think it'd be safe to go with printing a blank run of these keys first, then making the ones with the cut out lettering but I'm still thinking about which one would be more popular. I'm not the best touch typer so I still lean towards adding text cutouts.

Edit: I'm talking with manufacturers and they are asking me what type of packaging I want. I personally don't want to spend too much, soI just said to place each set in an individual bag/ box. Do you think this is fine? I definitely like the awesome prepackaged full keyboard boxes that some companies use but it's a bit overkill I think and not totally necessary.

Let me know what you guys think.

[paicrai]

i think the caps are the thing and not the packaging, a tight ziplock bag would be enough for me

[P3TC0CK]

i think the caps are the thing and not the packaging, a tight ziplock bag would be enough for me

That's what I thought myself, I always throw away/ recylce most of the packaging I get unless I absolutely need it for returns/ purchases and even then that's only for big purchases.

Baggie it is

[paicrai]

i think the caps are the thing and not the packaging, a tight ziplock bag would be enough for me

That's what I thought myself, I always throw away/ recylce most of the packaging I get unless I absolutely need it for returns/ purchases and even then that's only for big purchases.

Baggie it is

maybe you could put it in a tiny cardboard box, for those who want that

[FrostyToast]

I am fine with the cheapest option as long as it comes in one piece. i.e. plastic bags in a bubblewrapped envelope.

EDIT: These are going to be in the lowest profile possible from that mockup you made, yes?

[P3TC0CK]

I am fine with the cheapest option as long as it comes in one piece. i.e. plastic bags in a bubblewrapped envelope.

EDIT: These are going to be in the lowest profile possible from that mockup you made, yes?

The mock ups are what I will be creating, yes. If you'd all like I can upload them for you all to download and play around with yourselves. I'd like to maintain some kind of ownership of the models ( at least for the time being) so I'm not sure how I could do that.

[taylordcraig]

I'm curious if shapeways regular hi res plastics are adequate or if you will have to use the high detail frost like Matt3os mx-topre sliders.

Also, I would LOVE a set of these.
us ansi 104 key layout plz, maybe a tsangan kit too!

[P3TC0CK]

I'm curious if shapeways regular hi res plastics are adequate or if you will have to use the high detail frost like Matt3os mx-topre sliders.

Also, I would LOVE a set of these.
us ansi 104 key layout plz, maybe a tsangan kit too!

Yes, I'll be using ansi, as I think that's the most common layout (I assume it is) and my preferred layout. However, if you guys can get me the measurements for any other types of keys I wouldn't mind paying to have them made into models as well. I don't have any skill with CAD, so I'm using Fiverr (as mentioned in the credits) to create the special keys.

I'm not against making keys for other layouts, I would just need the measurements to get them done.

For those wondering about the specific measurements that I'm using (at least for the bases), I used this guide from WASD Keyboards and the PDF on the bottom of the page.

Edit: as of now this is the pricing according to shapeways

[FrostyToast]

I am fine with the cheapest option as long as it comes in one piece. i.e. plastic bags in a bubblewrapped envelope.

EDIT: These are going to be in the lowest profile possible from that mockup you made, yes?

The mock ups are what I will be creating, yes. If you'd all like I can upload them for you all to download and play around with yourselves. I'd like to maintain some kind of ownership of the models ( at least for the time being) so I'm not sure how I could do that.

If you want to maintain ownership, I believe you can have basic and free protection against people who intend to use your models for profit. So for example someone else would be unable to legally use your models to sell their own keycaps unless you explicitly tell them they can.

[P3TC0CK]

If you want to maintain ownership, I believe you can have basic and free protection against people who intend to use your models for profit. So for example someone else would be unable to legally use your models to sell their own keycaps unless you explicitly tell them they can.

Maybe, I always figured I'd need a patent for that. It's really not THAT big a deal for me, so I'll probably upload them in the next few days when I can. They're hardly that hard to copy or recreate on your own I guess.

[TotalChaos]

If these keycaps are OEM height and have crossbars then I will buy a set.

I am currently looking at a rubberdome keyboard in front of me that has flat square/rectangular keycaps but they are obviously not cherry mx.  But I really like them a lot.  The keyboard came free with an Acer computer in 2012.

[FrostyToast]

If you want to maintain ownership, I believe you can have basic and free protection against people who intend to use your models for profit. So for example someone else would be unable to legally use your models to sell their own keycaps unless you explicitly tell them they can.

Maybe, I always figured I'd need a patent for that. It's really not THAT big a deal for me, so I'll probably upload them in the next few days when I can. They're hardly that hard to copy or recreate on your own I guess.

I don't really know... I doubt you could really get a patent for this either since it's so basic, but who knows...

[onishima]

Considering 3 fonts at this point:

Font 1

Font 2

Font 3

There's currently 2 font sets I prefer from the three, but I'm not sure which one is the best. If you guys like any of them let me know and I'll consider your opinion

I can't wait for these, but as a graphic designer I can tell you I would not buy them if these are the fonts you go with

[P3TC0CK]

Considering 3 fonts at this point:

Font 1

Font 2

Font 3

There's currently 2 font sets I prefer from the three, but I'm not sure which one is the best. If you guys like any of them let me know and I'll consider your opinion

I can't wait for these, but as a graphic designer I can tell you I would not buy them if these are the fonts you go with

The issue is if I do the cut out idea I had in mind (the letters would be cut out of the keys/ part of the molding process) I'd need a stencil font. One that has breaks in it.

Good news is I won't be doing so unless these key caps are wildly popular, the first run if I can make it happen will be blank 

[Zekromtor]

Just a bit of warning, the tests I did with flat keys were not favorable. You don't realize how much you subconsciously make use of the concavity of the keys for positional awareness until you start typing on flat keys, then you start making a lot more mistakes. They look cool, though.

[jacobolus]

Just out of curiosity, why do you want flat keycaps? Is there something specific that you dislike about cylindrical/spherical keycaps? Do you have a special purpose in mind?

For example, stenographic keyboards have somewhat flat keys without much gap between them, because multiple keys need to be pressed at the same time.

[P3TC0CK]

Just a bit of warning, the tests I did with flat keys were not favorable. You don't realize how much you subconsciously make use of the concavity of the keys for positional awareness until you start typing on flat keys, then you start making a lot more mistakes. They look cool, though.

My preferred typing surface is completely flat and I've always like the typing experience on 'chiclet' style keyboards. I never like the mushiness and spaced out keys that most chiclet/scissor switch keyboards have. So I figure why not create key caps that have the typing surface and aesthetics of a chiclet/low profile keyboard and go on my favorite cherry switch.

Just out of curiosity, why do you want flat keycaps? Is there something specific that you dislike about cylindrical/spherical keycaps? Do you have a special purpose in mind?

For example, stenographic keyboards have somewhat flat keys without much gap between them, because multiple keys need to be pressed at the same time.

Really it's just comfort and aesthetics, I'm not sure if there's any provable advantage to this type of key cap. All I can really think of is that maybe it's a bit easier to keep clean? smaller gaps between keys and a flat surface being easier to clean. They might be advantageous to games that require keys to be pressed at the same time, and maybe easier to slide your fingers across them.

I don't actually dislike the typical keyboard design, it's just I feel uncomfortable using them compared to my laptop keyboards.

[P3TC0CK]

I don't really know... I doubt you could really get a patent for this either since it's so basic, but who knows...

I've applied to a government patent assistance program here in the UAE, I'm not sure if this kind of thing is something they'd be interested in but I'll let you guys know what happens. Like I said, I most likely will release the files for everyone to play around with once I can solidify if/when/how I will produce these keys 

If these keycaps are OEM height and have crossbars then I will buy a set.

I am currently looking at a rubberdome keyboard in front of me that has flat square/rectangular keycaps but they are obviously not cherry mx.  But I really like them a lot.  The keyboard came free with an Acer computer in 2012.

Can you explain what you mean by crossbar? Do you mean the metal bars that go under the keys? I'm actually not aware of what the standard dimensions of those are (if there are even standard dimensions for them) but I'll definitely look for them or add them if someone can show me where I can find it.

[jacobolus]

I've applied to a government patent assistance program here in the UAE, I'm not sure if this kind of thing is something they'd be interested in but I'll let you guys know what happens. Like I said, I most likely will release the files for everyone to play around with once I can solidify if/when/how I will produce these keys 

You want to get a patent on flat keycaps? That doesn't make any sense to me...

There's probably 100 year old prior art on typewriters, or much older if you look at musical instruments. There's really nothing novel about a flat keycap.

[P3TC0CK]

You want to get a patent on flat keycaps? That doesn't make any sense to me...

There's probably 100 year old prior art on typewriters, or much older if you look at musical instruments. There's really nothing novel about a flat keycap.

There aren't any flat key cap sets that fit cherry MX switches so I guess that's what's 'novel' about them. I admit I think it's pretty rare that I'll get a patent but why not try if the government has a program that helps you? I'm sure many other much more mundane things have been patented.


Edit: If you're wondering what program I'm talking about it's Takamul by the Abu Dhabi government.

[sakai4eva]

Sounds interesting, but wouldn't the caps rub against each other if they're too close?

[FrostyToast]

Sounds interesting, but wouldn't the caps rub against each other if they're too close?

If these use the same widths and lengths as standard keycaps, then it should be completely fine.
I couldn't see the keycaps wiggling around enough to actually make this a huge issue.

[sakai4eva]

Sounds interesting, but wouldn't the caps rub against each other if they're too close?

If these use the same widths and lengths as standard keycaps, then it should be completely fine.
I couldn't see the keycaps wiggling around enough to actually make this a huge issue.

But wouldn't that defeat OP's purpose of having a seamless set of keys? I guess it will have seams between the keys and dust will still get under the caps.

[P3TC0CK]

Sounds interesting, but wouldn't the caps rub against each other if they're too close?

They shouldn't, your normal key caps are very close to each other if you look at their bases and they don't have any contact issues. these keycaps make the space between the keys uniform.

If these use the same widths and lengths as standard keycaps, then it should be completely fine.
I couldn't see the keycaps wiggling around enough to actually make this a huge issue.

Yes, you'd need some serious wiggling/loose stems for them to be an issue. At that point I think you'd even have problems with normal keys.

But wouldn't that defeat OP's purpose of having a seamless set of keys? I guess it will have seams between the keys and dust will still get under the caps.

That's not my goal with creating the key caps. It was just a suggestion of what might be one "advantage" of this type of key cap. The general gap between keys would be much smaller, of course you can't stop every single particle from getting in but anything that could get stuck between typical sculpted keys would have a harder time with these caps I think.

[sakai4eva]

Hmmm. I do have some g20 kits with me, and I don't think that it'll be that big of an issue for usage when typing... I guess your idea can work.

[Melvang]

DCS caps with a .750" or 19.05mm spacing on the keys will give you .035" between caps.  Not a lot of room.  I couldn't tell you what it is between DSA caps but I know it is a little less.

[P3TC0CK]

DCS caps with a .750" or 19.05mm spacing on the keys will give you .035" between caps.  Not a lot of room.  I couldn't tell you what it is between DSA caps but I know it is a little less.

If you'd all like to download the keys and look at their dimensions/mess around with the models here are the files. There should be 8 keys, let me know if any of the keys from the shapeways image I posted were not included.


I think I'll be making the shapeways order later tonight unless someone wants to do the printing/ testing themselves or knows a cheaper alternative. It will be about 41 dollars shipped to me.

Edit: I can make them available on Shapeways if anyone is interested as well.

[paicrai]

*looks at all the faff*... tbh i just like perfect shapes

[TotalChaos]

If these keycaps are OEM height and have crossbars then I will buy a set.

I am currently looking at a rubberdome keyboard in front of me that has flat square/rectangular keycaps but they are obviously not cherry mx.  But I really like them a lot.  The keyboard came free with an Acer computer in 2012.

Can you explain what you mean by crossbar? Do you mean the metal bars that go under the keys? I'm actually not aware of what the standard dimensions of those are (if there are even standard dimensions for them) but I'll definitely look for them or add them if someone can show me where I can find it.

When you turn a keycap upside down and look "upskirt" you see little crossbars or "reinforcement bars" on most keycaps.  They are not metal but merely plastic.  Most keycaps are made from plastic molds.  The mold is shaped such as to produce these bars.

I really love flat keycaps. (Okay I also love Spherical keycaps, what can I say, I am a keycap maniac  ) The more I think about this the more I am thinking I would like 3 sets of them depending on the price.

However I am a little bit dubious as to whether or not a printer can print keys with sufficient accuracy or not.  I am just back from a 1 year GeekHack vacation.  Are people printing keycaps these days and getting great results now?

Also, will there be a small nub on top of the "home keys" like there is on the F and J keys of a standard QWERTY set?   You could get extra interest by including them as they help people keep their fingers aligned properly without having to look.

[P3TC0CK]

When you turn a keycap upside down and look "upskirt" you see little crossbars or "reinforcement bars" on most keycaps.  They are not metal but merely plastic.  Most keycaps are made from plastic molds.  The mold is shaped such as to produce these bars.

Oh, ok I understand. Yeah I'll see what I can do. I always assumed those were part of the molding process so I didn't ask the person who modeled them to add them.

I really love flat keycaps. (Okay I also love Spherical keycaps, what can I say, I am a keycap maniac  ) The more I think about this the more I am thinking I would like 3 sets of them depending on the price.

However I am a little bit dubious as to whether or not a printer can print keys with sufficient accuracy or not.  I am just back from a 1 year GeekHack vacation.  Are people printing keycaps these days and getting great results now?

Also, will there be a small nub on top of the "home keys" like there is on the F and J keys of a standard QWERTY set?   You could get extra interest by including them as they help people keep their fingers aligned properly without having to look.

I'm not sure, I haven't ordered the shapeways keys yet so I myself don't have any keys yet. As for the bump, depending on interest I wouldn't mind adding it for another set, but I want my set of keys to be totally flat without any features. I'm not against adding it later though.

[P3TC0CK]

I will be listing these on shape ways soon. Still trying to find someone to manufacture them as a full set; If anyone has suggestions I'm open to them 

[P3TC0CK]

Hi all,

I've made all my models available on shapeways here. I think most of the prices are pretty fair, but let me know if there something specific you want and I'll try and work that out.

If anyone has used shapeways before, is there any way to make an order cheaper? If I make a model with every necessary key piece in the model, would it be cheaper than printing out every single piece individually?

[iLLucionist]

Sounds interesting, but wouldn't the caps rub against each other if they're too close?

I don't know where it was, but there was a commercial water utility company somewhere in Latin America I believe that managed to get proprietary rights to rainwater and all the water found in nature within the country's borders, thereby enforcing them to use - and thus pay for - water exclusively supplied by them, even with law enforcement in place. Luckily, people were brave and started riots and ultimately the government decided to steer away from that company.

So, well, although the DNA in your body is largely patented by medical companies, meaning that theoretically you are partly indebted to those companies from the day someone is born, in this light, patenting a particular keycap design does not seem all that strange to me.

[sakai4eva]

Sounds interesting, but wouldn't the caps rub against each other if they're too close?

I don't know where it was, but there was a commercial water utility company somewhere in Latin America I believe that managed to get proprietary rights to rainwater and all the water found in nature within the country's borders, thereby enforcing them to use - and thus pay for - water exclusively supplied by them, even with law enforcement in place. Luckily, people were brave and started riots and ultimately the government decided to steer away from that company.

So, well, although the DNA in your body is largely patented by medical companies, meaning that theoretically you are partly indebted to those companies from the day someone is born, in this light, patenting a particular keycap design does not seem all that strange to me.

Er.... what?

[P3TC0CK]

Er.... what?

I think he meant to quote the person asking if I was really going to try and patent it. )

[P3TC0CK]

If you're interested in this project and have a basic knowledge of CAD or any other modeling software that uses .stl files please let me know; we can get the keys to a pretty reasonable price if we can include all of them in one neat model for shapeways to print. As of now each individual keys has a handling fee of around 1.50+ depending on the material we spend. Making them in one big group would significantly reduce the cost of the process.

If no one can do so I'll go ahead and contact the designer I used on Fiverr before. 

[iLLucionist]

Er.... what?

I think he meant to quote the person asking if I was really going to try and patent it. )

Sorry, wrong quote! That's indeed what I meant.

[QWERTim]

Just so you know, the T series we can produce look like this:



They do indeed have vertical sides - not at an angle. The lip, is for use with vandalism keyboards.

[P3TC0CK]

Just so you know, the T series we can produce look like this:

Show Image

They do indeed have vertical sides - not at an angle. The lip, is for use with vandalism keyboards.

That's good to know Thanks for posting a picture. They're still not what I'm for in terms of size, but it's still interesting to know more about keycaps like that. Do you produce all the other standard sizes?

[P3TC0CK]

Making the group file now, the person who I asked to do it asked for way more than I expected so I just figured it out. This is all the non standard keys, I will be adding the 86 1 x 1 keys after this post and uploading to shapeways as soon as I can to see if the price is any different.

Edit: Here are all 104 keys:



Plenty of room for any other odd keys or ideas I come up with.

[P3TC0CK]

Here is the purchase link from shapeways. I'll keep on pushing and see if I can find a cheaper ways to manufacture these keys. They are a lot more reasonable now though, and I will look into printing out a colored set for my own keyboard.

[FrostyToast]

I think we need to see some results first. I don't think anyone quite trusts the quality and accuracy as of this moment.
Get a couple in each size printed and photographed so we can see what we are dealing with.

[P3TC0CK]

I think we need to see some results first. I don't think anyone quite trusts the quality and accuracy as of this moment.
Get a couple in each size printed and photographed so we can see what we are dealing with.

I'm not telling anyone to order them, simply showing that they are available if you want to make a purchase before I get mine. The dimensions for the keys are available on their pages and were taken from here.

The files are already available as well if you'd like to check their measurements in your own software.