Author Topic: Ducky DK2087s Zero + Vortex DS PTB keycaps review, Filco Majestouch comparison  (Read 9926 times)

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Offline ikonomov

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Here is my review for anybody who might consider buying Ducky DK2087s Zero.  This is the backlit version.

I have used only one other mechanical keyboard before this one, the original Filco Majestouch TKL (Cherry MX Blue).  My move from a full size rubber dome to a mechanical keyboard in TKL form was quite a revelation.  It is still working as new, never really caring about the shiny keys, and it is only my curiosity in thick PBT keycaps that has lead me to try something else.  After getting Vortex Double-Shot PBT thick keycaps I discovered the rubbing of the stabilizer wire on the bottom of the keycaps when the keys are being depressed.  I didn't want to modify the newly received keycaps, so it was time for a new Ducky keyboard with cherry stabilizers...

Accessories
Dust cover, cheap keycap puller, WASD gray keycaps, user manual.
90725-0

Build quality
In a few words: simplicity and immaculate attention to detail.  Both the Ducky Zero and the Filco MJ have rubber on their feet, sturdy plastic cases with minimum footprint, no unneeded plastic coatings that will rub off in time, no unneeded USB removable braided cables.  The original Filco MJ has one sided PCB board, while the new MJ2 and the Ducky are dual layered.  This mostly matters if one decides to mod the keyboard, as dual layer PCB will minimize the chances of damage to the PCB when soldering and desoldering.  Filco and Ducky have switches that are mounted on a steel plate.  Still, it is not impossible to imagine that there might be some stress that is not completely absorbed by the plate that transfers to the PCB, and dual layer PCB ensures that the switches have stronger soldered points.

Extra features
Ducky is 6KRO with the ability to turn on a fully functional USB NKRO.  It has a lock for the Windows key, as well as the ability to change the key repeats when you hold down a key.  It can be set to x1 (normal), x2, x4 and also the delay between repeats.  Also there is volume up/down and mute.  There is a Fn key for accessing all the extra functions which replaces the right Windows key, so there is still the regular Menu key next to the right Control key.  Filco only has 6KRO over USB, but comes with a PS/2 adapter that allows NKRO.  I tried to plug the Ducky with the PS/2 adapter and the keyboard did not work.  The USB is Full Speed (tested with usbview.exe) and has 1000Hz polling rate.

Stabilizers
As mentioned the wires on the costar stabilizers rub on the inside edge of the keycaps if they are made of thicker plastic.  It is not very perceivable, but I confirmed it by looking underneath the space bar with a small mirror and a flashlight on the Filco that uses costar.  Ducky Zero and Shine 3 come with clipped Cherry stabilizers.  There is also a review at http://www.custompcreview.com/reviews/review-max-keyboard-blackbird-tenkeyless-mechanical-keyboard/19396/2/ and video
that might suggest that Max keyboards also use clipped stabilizers.  I have tried Corsair K70 with regular Cherry stabilizers, and I hated the way they soften the stabilized keys.  When clipped, however, cherry stabilizers have no difference in feel when the keys are bottomed out compared to costar.  The costar seems to do its job of "stabilizing" a little better than cherry when pushing on both ends of those keys and trying to wobble them up and down.  The difference is very slight but I believe this to be the case.  On the other hand keys with costar stabilizers make this annoying high pitched rattling nose when you tap on them very gently, which is very audible on the space bar when typing.  It happens the moment the fingertips touch the keys.  Lubing the contact points for the costar stabilizers might help, but I doubt it and didn't bother.

Keycaps
Filco and Ducky have OEM (standard profile) thin black ABS keycaps.  As such, they are both fairly noisy when bottoming out and on key release.  Filco's are printed with white, while Ducky's are made of semi-transparent white plastic that is sprayed over with a relatively thick layer of black paint (or a thin layer of black plastic) that seems to have the lettering laser etched.  It is hard to make the case which is better, as both are not of very high quality.  Upon buying Vortex Double-Shot PBT thick keycaps this became very obvious:

First, PBT plastic has texture.  This is not just for looks, or "better" feel, this actually helps with typing.  When the ABS plastic wears out in time and starts to shine, it actually becomes sticky to the skin so that when typing, there is this small almost imperceivable extra force required for the fingers to release and move above the keys.  The fingers seem to glide on the PBT, yet feeling somehow less "slippery" and having no resistance on key release.  I noticed this by running a few typing tests and swiping between both keyboards, one with ABS, and the other with PBT.  Both keyboards have Cherry MX Blue switches and I imagine that this could be harder to detect with heavier switches, but it is there.  In long typing sessions, I am absolutely convinced that worn out and shiny ABS plastic can strain the hand muscles faster.

Second, the thicker plastic and possibly the different material significantly changes the noise both on bottoming out and on key release.  With PBT the noise is less, and the clack is more muffled.

Finally, I also bought 40A-L Rubber O-Rings from WASD Keyboards to reduce the harsh feel and noise when the keys are bottomed out.  There is hardly any reduction in travel, 0.2mm if WASD is to be believed, but the feel of the softer landing and reduction in noise is very significant.  With the rings installed, it is just enough to make the OEM keycaps bottom out at the top of the switch with very little reduction in travel.  The travel distance is shortened significantly more when o-rings are used with Cherry profile keycaps.  I realize this is a very subjective opinion, but for me I feel like this is the optimum setup for a mechanical keyboard with cherry switches.

Backlighting
This is something that I did not care much about, but since the keycaps that I bought have transparent lettering, I decided to get the back-lit version, especially since I can turn it off.  I remember wishing for a back-lit keyboard a few times when typing in the dark.  One thing I should mention here is that the Filco doesn't have backlighting, but it is one of the few keyboards that have separate LEDs for the Caps Lock and Screen Lock.  I like this better than having the LED indicators on the keys, and I would care even more about this if my keycaps didn't have transparent lettering.  One of the reasons why I decided to get Zero rather than Shiny 3 was because of the simpler lighting and the less extra lighting functions to worry about pressing by mistake.  Next comes the biggest criticism of this keyboard, for which I actually sent an email to the support team in hopes that it will be addressed in the upcoming firmware updates.

First, the default state of the NKRO is off and when I turn it on once inside windows, the key LED indicator lights up and stays on, just like CapsLock.  It is quite annoying to have the LED indicator on all the time.  Ducky need to change the default behavior for NKRO so its LED indicator is off when NKRO is on.  6KRO is only for compatibility when outside windows.

Second, F1, F2 and F3 control the key repeat times, as mentioned above to x1, x2 and x4, and whichever is chosen lights up the LED for that key.  The same goes for the F5, F6 and F7 that control the repeat rate.  There is a function to disable those LED indicators, but if I disable them and turn on backlighting, F1, F2, F3, F5, F6, F7 are always lit up at maximum brightness, even if the rest of the keys have lower brightness.  This is not ideal, and prevents me from wanting to turn on the backlighting at all.  Also the default state of those LED indicators is ON, when it should be OFF.

I received a polite reply from Ducky that they will pass my suggestions onto the support team when doing a firmware update, so hopefully they will fix this.  It should be a simple firmware fix, and if anybody else has this keyboard that shares my view, please let them know.

Software
NONE!  OK, maybe there shouldn't be one for a keyboard, but why not?  Razer, Logitech, Roccat, Corsair and SteelSeries all make mechanical keyboards that come with very well developed software.  Sadly they all have non-standard key spacing and we don't yet have keycap sets for them.  I wonder if there is a market for such keycap sets already, as it seems all 5 manufacturers use the same spacing...  A software for a keyboard can do all kinds of things including profiles and on app profile switching, while on the fly remapping of keys, custom LED programming, macros, locking keys and who knows what else.  I use such a software for my gaming mouse and I find it invaluable, even though I hardly play games.  I am not suggesting that Ducky should start spending resources on software, but at the same time I felt like I should mention it.
« Last Edit: Fri, 20 February 2015, 13:39:07 by ikonomov »

Offline suicidal_orange

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Welcome to GH!

That's a very informative first post, thanks for writing it :)
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Offline ikonomov

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suicidal_orange thank you for the warm welcome!

Update, new Ducky Thick PBT dyesub keycaps
I have been using the Vortex black keycaps with transparent lettering for a while now, and I found them hard to read when the keys are not lit or when there's not much light in my room.  Even when lit-up the Vortex legends lit up only on the top half of the keys that have legends on 2 rows, so for example "7" would have only the "&" lit up, but not the "7".  I find myself looking at the keyboard quite often when I need to use some symbols, numbers, or the function keys.  Ideally one shouldn't look at the keyboard at all when typing, and I'm sure some people are proficient enough that they can even use blank keycaps, but I'm not one of them.  I think this is a shared problem with most if not all keycaps made for backlit keyboards.  Yesterday I received Ducky Thick PBT in cream/green and the lettering on my keyboard is much easier to read now.  Other than the visuals, I find the quality comparable with the Vortex with some small differences:
- The Vortex PBT plastic has more texture.  I'm not sure which I prefer more, but one could expect the Vortex to retain some texture longer than the Ducky.
- On the bottom of the Vortex keycaps there's three cross-pieces, instead of four like on the Ducky keycaps.  When o-rings are installed these are important, because they become the support for the o-rings when the keys bottom out.  Keycaps with four cross-pieces like the Ducky, because of the rectangular shape of the switch piston rather than a square, when bottoming out with o-rings actually get supported mostly only on two of those cross-pieces instead of four.  In case of Vortex it is only one.  Because of this Ducky keycaps might be a little better suited for use with o-rings.
- Back to the visuals, one would assume the new Ducky cream/green keycaps are opaque having no transparent lettering, but the cream keycaps are quite transparent when lit up.  In my opinion they are more pleasing and less distracting when used with back-lit keyboards than the familiar black keys with transparent lettering.

Update on the backlit issues
I'll rant here a little more about the two minor but HUGE issues I highlighted above in my previous post, because indeed the devil's in the details!
I have exchanged a few emails with Ducky support, and they have sent me a firmware update plus a link for an update utility.  Since those files are not posted on their website I thought it might be useful for somebody, so I'm posting them here.
* firmware update English.pdf (228.93 kB - downloaded 496 times.)
* L2042V14.bin (32 kB - downloaded 235 times.)
* USB_FD.exe (1666.5 kB - downloaded 259 times.)
Unfortunately it didn't do anything for me since my keyboard already had the latest firmware.  Ducky have implemented the ability to switch between NKRO and 6KRO very elegantly in their Shine 3 keyboards in the updated firmwares on their site:
02. New: 6-Key Rollover Mode. Press and Hold Fn + S for 3 seconds to activate, and Fn + N to return to the normal NKRO mode.  After seeing this I suggested that they do a similar thing for their Zero line, by Pressing and Holding Fn + F11 for 3 seconds to activate 6KRO and Pressing and Holding Fn + F12 for 3 seconds to activate NKRO.  Fn + F11 is unused right now, and the legend symbol of NKRO on F12 will still correspond with the same functionality.  The only difference would be that now we don't have to have the LED lit up and stay ON when either mode is activated.  Another idea I suggested is to have the LED indicator lit up for NKRO/6KRO mode, but allow them to be turned off with Fn + F9 along with the repeat times and repeat delay (F1, F2, F3, F5, F6, F7).  I found this absolutely annoying, preventing me from turning NKRO mode.  I was hoping this would be less of an issue with the Ducky keycaps, but F12 happens to be one of the cream keycaps...  :))  My motherboard is 7 or 8 years old (MSI P6N SLI Platinum, NVIDIA nForce 650i SLI) yet it allows my keyboard to be fully functional in NKRO even when in BIOS when I tested it.  According to some posts here on this forum keyboards that work in Full Speed USB mode like the Zero (I did test it using usbview.exe) don't have to implement any "special tricks" to allow for NKRO in USB, so in time this should become a standard.  On another forum a guy claims that Ducky Zero also works perfectly fine in OSX with a full NKRO support.  We can expect eventually PS/2 to be phased out, as many other great things have been over the years, so there is no reason why we shouldn't have and use this feature right now under USB if only Ducky fixes their ANNOYING lighting issue.
The other LED problem is not as bad, because it is only apparent when the back-lighting is turned on.  I watched a video review of the Ducky Shine 3 and that keyboard doesn't have that kind of problem, even thought it has the exact same functionality with the key repeat times (F1, F2, F3) and delay (F5, F6, F7) so it is definitely not something they can't fix and it must be simply a coding bug of the firmware.  If Ducky decide to not ignore my emails, and hopefully if more people rant about them as annoyingly as I have, it is my hope that it will be fixed.  Also if somebody is able to decode that .bin file of the firmware and fix it for us, please let us know!
« Last Edit: Fri, 20 February 2015, 13:07:35 by ikonomov »

Offline ikonomov

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After quite a few emails from Ducky I was finally told that Zero series has a different PCB than the Shine 3 line, and the lighting issues with F1, F2, F3 F5, F6 and F7 cannot be fixed as those keys cannot have their lighting level controlled.  The LEDs of those keys can either be ON or OFF.  Even so I still suggested that they make those LEDs OFF for back-light level 1, 2, 3 and 4 and ON for 5, 6 and 7.  My suggestion for the NKRO LED is being "evaluated" by the support team, so maybe it will get implemented eventually.  If they do, it will affect 4 different variants of the Zero keyboards.  Still, Ducky probably doesn't feel rushed to fix this, because as far as I can tell their Zero keyboards are not very popular and for whatever reason almost impossible to find.

In the mean time I decided to paint the bottom of the cream function keys (F1-F4 and F9-F12) to make them opaque.  PBT plastic doesn't melt with most conventional paint thinners http://www.mechkb.com/blog/mechkb-labs/genuine-deck-hassium-doubleshot/ so it should be safe.  I carefully covered the 8 keys with tape on all sides except the bottom which also should protect the dyesub legends since they are not safe from the thinner and also I put a small circular tape piece to cover the steam.  I applied a few layers of car spray paint, let it dry, took off the tape and pealed off the little paint that got underneath the tape on the face sides.  Since paint doesn't adhere to the plastic surface it can be paled off completely later if I want to take it off.  Because of this it also needs to be applied in a few coats to make sure it is thick enough to stay and cover the surface.  Before spraying I also taped 4 small pieces of tape where the rubber o-rings would sit so that I don't get any difference in travel in case the paint gets too thick on some places.  As it is most likely I still won't use the keyboard backlit since it is visually distracting, but I get to use now my keyboard in full NKRO mode without annoying bright F12 (or F10 when I lock the win key)!  One can only hope that Ducky will produce more keyboards in both full and TKL form factor with 2 color quality PBT dyesub / 2-shot keycaps without any unneeded Backlighting and be more careful about their LED indicators.
« Last Edit: Sat, 07 March 2015, 10:21:54 by ikonomov »

Offline CPTBadAss

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Thanks for sharing your review. I find it interesting that you think that ABS vs PBT will change the strain in your hand muscles.

Personally, I prefer ABS where I can get it but in some cases (IBM, some Alps boards) I'm stuck with PBT. I really don't like the feel of textured PBT. There are smoother PBT caps out there (it's mostly a function of the molding I believe) and the ones on my Kingsaver that I've harvested from a Wang and Acer board are ok. But I've used my boards enough that I don't think there's that much of a difference that you'll feel it in your hands in terms of strain.

Offline Melchior

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LEDs stay stuck ON when you want them dimmed ?

Swap out the LED's resistor to a much higher (10X value) - and they will be much dimmer!

Even a complete novice could do it...
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Offline JohnWick

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Nice review,bro
But it would be better if you attached some images
Thanks anyway

Offline Prizm

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That's the problem with these frickin' LED keyboards. They always have some LEDs that cannot have their brightness adjusted (num lock, caps lock, etc). So you end up burning a hole in your retinas because the manufacturers don't bother frosting or softening the light either,  like your regular $10 keyboards. Every LED keyboard I've come across has the same problem.

Thanks for the info on the clipped cherry stabilizer, I'm looking at the Ducky Zero (non LED) and was a bit concerned because  my last cherry keyboard had regular cherry stabilizers and they felt horrible.