Apple's new butterfly keyboard switches

[trauring]

Apple announced that their new MacBook, which is a 2lb crazy-thin notebook even thinner than the MacBook Air, has a new kind of keyboard switch that they invented. They call it a butterfly switch, and say it's 4 times as stable as the scissor switch they were using before, and 40% thinner. The key caps also have a 17% larger surface area. Interesting design.

[hwood34]

400% as stable, 40% thinner, 100% junk scissor switch

[jdcarpe]

Dear Apple,

Please make MacBook with solid area and no keyboard for 60% mechanical users.

Also, stop with the damn serial connector bull****. You'veb been pulling that crap since ADB days.

Thanks,
Every Mac user

[HendyZone]

Dear Apple,

Please make MacBook with solid area and no keyboard for 60% mechanical users.

Also, stop with the damn serial connector bull****. You've been pulling that crap since ADB days.

Thanks,
Every Mac user

This will be the best MacBook ever

[SpAmRaY]

butterfly must be the current buzzword in hip keyboards, waytools textblade has a patented magnetic 'butterfly' mechanism

[hwood34]

Also, stop with the damn serial connector bull****. You'veb been pulling that crap since ADB days.

Where do you think half their revenue comes from

[Eugene]

If the redesign improves on just one scissor-switch flaw, then it's a win for everyone. Now to do some research and see if Apple has licensed the design from someone else or patented it for themselves.

[TopreFan333]

Dear Apple,

Please make MacBook with solid area and no keyboard for 60% mechanical users.

Also, stop with the damn serial connector bull****. You'veb been pulling that crap since ADB days.

Thanks,
Every Mac user

I think you mean ".0001% of Mac users" outside the echo chamber of this forum.

[jdcarpe]

Dear Apple,

Please make MacBook with solid area and no keyboard for 60% mechanical users.

Also, stop with the damn serial connector bull****. You'veb been pulling that crap since ADB days.

Thanks,
Every Mac user

I think you mean ".05% of Mac users" outside the echo chamber of this forum.

Well, okay. Maybe not the solid top option...

[daerid]

The steel dome is intriguing

[KHAANNN]

Their regular switch design also buzzes like crazy with sound, even the slightest bass makes the macbook keys buzz/irritate
I was only able to solve the issue by isolating the laptop from the desk with felt pads

I hope this one doesn't buzz if it eventually gets into macbook pro's too

[0100010]

Dear Apple,

Please make MacBook with solid area and no keyboard for 60% mechanical users.

Also, stop with the damn serial connector bull****. You've been pulling that crap since ADB days.

Thanks,
Every Mac user

This will be the best MacBook ever

[chyros]

Ugh, this looks horrendous. Why do Apple keep making products nowadays that are just shiny and made out of a single block of aluminium rather than something functional, useful and above else, affordable? :/ I'd rather have a giant laptop with an integrated AEKII than any of these tiny switches...

[Altis]

The steel dome is intriguing

I'm very curious.

Metal domes have a tendency to be very snappy -- they are either concave or convex, but not much in between. That could make them feel less like a keyswitch and more like a button on an appliance.

Though with such an incredible shallow depth, I'm not sure how much choice they'll have. At the very least, they put some thought and effort into how the keyboard would feel, rather than let it go to pot like the rest of the Macbooks, it seems.

[Findecanor]

Apple announced that their new MacBook, which is a 2lb crazy-thin notebook even thinner than the MacBook Air, has a new kind of keyboard switch that they invented.

So, Apple has "invented" something again, huh?

Sorry, the "butterfly" stabilising is nothing new. For instance, Optimus Popularis and the Razer Star Wars keyboards have similar mechanisms.
More key surface area to key spacing is not a good thing - it increases the likelihood of pressing the wrong key.

[Altis]

More key surface area to key spacing is not a good thing - it increases the likelihood of pressing the wrong key.

That was my thought as well when I heard it.

Combine the closer keys with the extra stabilizing meaning it's both easier and more likely to press an adjacent key.

I guess we shall see.

[jacobolus]

Also, stop with the damn serial connector bull****. You'veb been pulling that crap since ADB days.

Can you elaborate on which part you think is bull****? ADB was basically the best peripheral connector on any PC until USB came along.

The PS/2 connectors used on Wintel PCs were a joke. Totally restart your computer to plug in a new keyboard? Are you ****ing kidding me?

[CPTBadAss]

****ing hell. Twice in three days I saw something that I thought was Marquadt butterfly switches and totally wasn't .

Now that I'm here, I'm intrigued. Gotta throw this on the list to check out along with Romer-G Omrons and Linear Matias.

[jacobolus]

More key surface area to key spacing is not a good thing - it increases the likelihood of pressing the wrong key.

This was my thought too, but I’m guessing they probably subjected the new keyboard to a huge amount of user testing, so maybe they know something we don’t.

[jacobolus]

100% junk scissor switch

As you can see in the picture, there’s no scissoring involved here. It’s 100% junk butterfly, okay?

[jacobolus]

They’re using a different typeface for the legends:



I must say, I’m not impressed with the glyphs for symbols and punctuation, or the alignment of anything, on the new legends. I think they just pulled the same glyphs intended to be used in printed text, rather than customizing them to make sense in the context of keyboard legends, and as a result the stroke widths, glyph sizes, etc. are all over the map. The previous Apple laptop legend designs seem much more careful and consistent. I think these might actually be the least carefully done keycap legends on any Apple keyboard since the M0110. For all that some people here dislike like the Condensed Oblique Univers of the late 80s / early 90s, everything else about the legend design was done with careful attention to detail.

Using smaller outlined glyphs for the various functions like media controls, volume, brightness, etc. makes them all less distinguishable and less legible.

Interesting how they reversed the text alignment on the bottom row. I like the old one marginally better, but it’s not really a big deal.

I can’t imagine there’s any real positive advantage of the larger keytop size and reduced space between keys. The old ones seemed pretty reasonably sized/spaced, but I wouldn’t even mind slightly more space between keys than those, I think.

The bottom row, including the spacebar, seems to not be quite as wide as on the old keyboard. (Personally I think it would benefit by being an extra ~5 millimeters wider. An extra wide spacebar makes quite a nice improvement in typing comfort.

Extra long escape is kind of an interesting change. Might be nice, even though the trade-off is squeezing the F keys.

I’m definitely not a fan of the new left/right arrows. The little gaps in the old version are really helpful for locating the arrow cluster.

Overall a lot of this new design looks like it was rushed out by some interns.

[Findecanor]

Note also that the bottom row is not as high as on the old keyboard. That means that the up/down arrow keys are smaller.

The PS/2 connectors used on Wintel PCs were a joke. Totally restart your computer to plug in a new keyboard? Are you ****ing kidding me?

ADB wasn't without problems either. Woz intended it to be hot-swapped but not every implementation supported it.

[rush340]

Also, stop with the damn serial connector bull****. You'veb been pulling that crap since ADB days.

Whaaa...  Are you talking about USB-C? That's the most exciting thing about it!

I can't wait until I can plug a USB cable in upside down or backwards and not worry about having the right USB A, B, Mini, Micro, WTF, etc cable.  Being able to use it for network, video, and power is also amazing.  Adapters will become dirt cheap once non-Apple products start using it.

It is disappointing that it only has one port, but I'm not planning on buying it anyways, just excited about that it's ushering USB-C in.

[Altis]

Also, stop with the damn serial connector bull****. You'veb been pulling that crap since ADB days.

Whaaa...  Are you talking about USB-C? That's the most exciting thing about it!

I can't wait until I can plug a USB cable in upside down or backwards and not worry about having the right USB A, B, Mini, Micro, WTF, etc cable.  Being able to use it for network, video, and power is also amazing.  Adapters will become dirt cheap once non-Apple products start using it.

It is disappointing that it only has one port, but I'm not planning on buying it anyways, just excited about that it's ushering USB-C in.

It's very handy for docking. One connector and you have power, USB devices, and monitor. I very much like the idea of that, though I honestly wonder whether I'd bother docking a laptop with a Core M processor (strangely mixed with 8GB of RAM). We shall see what the performance ends up being on this thing.

[derezzed]

Also, stop with the damn serial connector bull****. You'veb been pulling that crap since ADB days.

Where do you think half their revenue comes from

For many years, other half of their income came from selling $30 rubber bands to iPhone 4 owners who, according to Steve Jobs, aren't smart enough to know how to hold a phone properly.

It will be interesting to see what sort of patent litigation arises out of Apple and WayTools both having "butterfly" style switches.

[jacobolus]

I can’t wait until every phone, camera, keyboard, drawing tablet, microphone, MIDI instrument, flash storage stick, printer, projector, car/airplane power jack, LED desk lamp, remote control car, etc. uses the same tiny reversible connector. It’s going to be amazing.

[tribade]

I'm interested to see if these switches are any good.  I've been a life-long apple fan so it's hard to imagine my life with a windows laptop but if this keyboard is really that ****ty then it might be the last straw.  Keyboards have become increasingly important to me thank to you *******s 

[tbc]

Also, stop with the damn serial connector bull****. You'veb been pulling that crap since ADB days.

Whaaa...  Are you talking about USB-C? That's the most exciting thing about it!

I can't wait until I can plug a USB cable in upside down or backwards and not worry about having the right USB A, B, Mini, Micro, WTF, etc cable.  Being able to use it for network, video, and power is also amazing.  Adapters will become dirt cheap once non-Apple products start using it.

It is disappointing that it only has one port, but I'm not planning on buying it anyways, just excited about that it's ushering USB-C in.

It's very handy for docking. One connector and you have power, USB devices, and monitor. I very much like the idea of that, though I honestly wonder whether I'd bother docking a laptop with a Core M processor (strangely mixed with 8GB of RAM). We shall see what the performance ends up being on this thing.

when you have less performance, having ram actually becomes more important.  it allows you to do more things in parallel, giving you he impression of overall 'fasterness'

also keep in mind that a core M is going to be more powerful than core 2 duos (if i did the numbers in my head correctly).

[Coreda]

They’re using a different typeface for the legends:

Show Image

Wait, no fvcking way. They actually ended up going with the ridiculous fat arrow keys?

Now I think about, it's not so bad practically but aesthetically it's a bit odd.

TBH the main issue with the new design is the single port. Practically thread worthy.

[KRKS]

Totally restart your computer to plug in a new keyboard? Are you ****ing kidding me?

Hotswapping PS/2 works fine on Debian. I even did it just now to check.

[jacobolus]

Hotswapping PS/2 works fine on Debian. I even did it just now to check.

Did you try it in ~1985–1995 on DOS or Windows 3.1, the time-frame and operating systems relevant for comparisons vs. ADB?

[Findecanor]

Hotswapping PS/2 is bad not just because of missing OS support but because it could damage some motherboards.

[bazh]

the fat left/right arrow keys are always the worst on the laptop keyboard, one of the reason I like the old MB's keyboard, and now they **** it up


Anyway I don't put much hope in a keyboard with a travel distance of 1mm, I'd rather have a solid surface to easily put my HHKB on

[mecano]

Dear Apple,

Please make MacBook with solid area and no keyboard for 60% mechanical users.

Also, stop with the damn serial connector bull****. You'veb been pulling that crap since ADB days.

Thanks,
Every Mac user

I think you mean "3% of Mac users" outside the echo chamber of this forum.

Well, okay. Maybe not the solid top option...

A keyboard dock that would be cool.
What are they waiting for to put OLED keyboard in these?

I can’t wait until every phone, camera, keyboard, drawing tablet, microphone, MIDI instrument, flash storage stick, printer, projector, car/airplane power jack, LED desk lamp, remote control car, etc. uses the same tiny reversible connector. It’s going to be amazing.

What do you mean? Can this connector carry both DC and data at same time? Can you hook usb devices, thunderbolt or whatever display, hard drives, audio interface all running together without suffering delays? It's ok for an ultra portable fashionable computer that will never see much more than it power brick in it life or a SD card reader twice upon a time but then…
Unified connector in it form factor is a nice idea though.

[Oobly]

Also, stop with the damn serial connector bull****. You'veb been pulling that crap since ADB days.

Whaaa...  Are you talking about USB-C? That's the most exciting thing about it!

I can't wait until I can plug a USB cable in upside down or backwards and not worry about having the right USB A, B, Mini, Micro, WTF, etc cable.  Being able to use it for network, video, and power is also amazing.  Adapters will become dirt cheap once non-Apple products start using it.

It is disappointing that it only has one port, but I'm not planning on buying it anyways, just excited about that it's ushering USB-C in.

Um... actually I believe he was referring to all the proprietary Apple connectors / protocols. I can personally attest to the fact that they are a real PITA for anyone developing a peripheral. ADB, 30-pin dock connector, Lightning, etc. are all proprietary and you have to pay to use them if you develop a peripheral for Apple devices. They also integrated FireWire instead of USB when USB started to become popular and only conceded to adding USB ports when it started to become ubiquitous.

I really applaud the use of the USB-C connector, but they're not the first: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N1

I wonder if they'll replace the Lightning connector on the iPhones and iPads with USB-C. If they do, it'll be a refreshing dose of reason and common sense for them, but I think they're making too much money from peripheral manufacturers who have to pay them $4 per device that has a Lightning connector.

Anyway, back on topic. I have never felt a steel dome button I like the feel of. They're all a bit like baby food jar lids, "Click-tock", so I doubt this board will feel very good to type on. I suspect it will also not be very kind to fingers. Many phone keyboards (Blackberry, etc) are metal dome.... Of course, being Apple, I'm sure they've made it at least a little better than some of those, but the technology simply does not offer much in the way of tuning the feel.

[vivalarevolución]

Um... actually I believe he was referring to all the proprietary Apple connectors / protocols. I can personally attest to the fact that they are a real PITA for anyone developing a peripheral. ADB, 30-pin dock connector, Lightning, etc. are all proprietary and you have to pay to use them if you develop a peripheral for Apple devices. They also integrated FireWire instead of USB when USB started to become popular and only conceded to adding USB ports when it started to become ubiquitous.

I really applaud the use of the USB-C connector, but they're not the first: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N1

I wonder if they'll replace the Lightning connector on the iPhones and iPads with USB-C. If they do, it'll be a refreshing dose of reason and common sense for them, but I thnk they're making too much money from peripheral manufacturers who have to pay them $4 per device that has a Lightning connector.

Changing up the connector is a great way for Apple to make some cash money when they force you to buy new adapters or the peripheral manufacturers that have to pay Apple for each device.

Anyways, it's rubber dome.  Meh.

[Salaryman Ryan]

According to the Verge:

"To make it that thin, Apple had to make some adjustments, starting with the keyboard. It takes a little getting used to, since it doesn't really feel like any standard MacBook keyboard I've used. Although Apple says that it has created an all new butterfly mechanism to make typing feel great, the keys felt fairly stiff to me, with such little travel that I wasn't sure if I was really typing. It's as close to typing on a glass tablet screen as you'll get with physical keys, and you have to rely on autocorrect just as much when you're going really fast. I imagine I could get used to it with just a little bit of time, though."

I still would like to try it myself but based on this first impression, not sure if I'm going to like it.

[Oobly]

...
Anyways, it's rubber dome.  Meh.

Nope, it's metal dome.

[Sencha]

Dear apple please start using Topre switches.

[MajorMajor]

...
Anyways, it's rubber dome.  Meh.

Nope, it's metal dome.

Yep, I'll be interested in trying these out just to see how they feel. I think the key travel will be too short for comfort, and the longevity might be pretty bad.

[jacobolus]

Anyway, back on topic. I have never felt a steel dome button I like the feel of. They're all a bit like baby food jar lids, "Click-tock", so I doubt this board will feel very good to type on. I suspect it will also not be very kind to fingers. Many phone keyboards (Blackberry, etc) are metal dome.... Of course, being Apple, I'm sure they've made it at least a little better than some of those, but the technology simply does not offer much in the way of tuning the feel.

You should try IBM beam spring switches sometime. Not exactly a dome shape, but same basic idea.

[TopreFan333]

Yep, I'll be interested in trying these out just to see how they feel. I think the key travel will be too short for comfort, and the longevity might be pretty bad.

Yeah, one review I read said the travel was really low (which is saying something, compared to the current-generation of switches). I'll have to try it myself, but it sounds kind of awful:

Although Apple says that it has created an all new butterfly mechanism to make typing feel great, the keys felt fairly stiff to me, with such little travel that I wasn't sure if I was really typing. It's as close to typing on a glass tablet screen as you'll get with physical keys, and you have to rely on autocorrect just as much when you're going really fast. I imagine I could get used to it with just a little bit of time, though.

Yuck. I definitely don't get the obsession with thin-ness here. Lightness is nice, but why not trade a few fractions of an inch and a few ounces for some more key travel and maybe putting back in some of the ports they stripped out. *sigh*

[heedpantsnow]

I can't imagine how typing on metal domes for hours on end wouldn't be terrible for your finger joints. Lots of force to start, then very little resistance through the travel, then a really hard bottom.

[vivalarevolución]

Yuck. I definitely don't get the obsession with thin-ness here. Lightness is nice, but why not trade a few fractions of an inch and a few ounces for some more key travel and maybe putting back in some of the ports they stripped out. *sigh*

Most of Apple's consumers probably don't give a damn about the feel of the keyboard, and are more concerned with other factors of the device.  So lightness, thinness, portability are more important than typing feel.

What I don't get is the single port idea.  Could you at least give me two ports so I can charge and use another peripheral at the same time?  I know there are adapters that expand to multiple ports, but those are limited at the moment.

[daerid]

What I don't get is the single port idea.  Could you at least give me two ports so I can charge and use another peripheral at the same time?  I know there are adapters that expand to multiple ports, but those are limited at the moment.

This laptop isn't targeted at people who need more ports. Its target is pure portability. If you need extra ports, pack a usb-c hub or $20 adapter

[jacobolus]

What I don't get is the single port idea.  Could you at least give me two ports so I can charge and use another peripheral at the same time?

Not without making the whole laptop bigger.

[daerid]

There will also probably be dual-purpose USB-C charging hubs that will provide extra ports while charging the laptop as well.

[jacobolus]

Apple is already selling those for $80. http://store.apple.com/us/product/MJ1K2AM/A/usb-c-digital-av-multiport-adapter

[TopreFan333]

Most of Apple's consumers probably don't give a damn about the feel of the keyboard, and are more concerned with other factors of the device.  So lightness, thinness, portability are more important than typing feel.

I'm one of their consumers and I type on my Macbook Air a LOT, and I know a lot of people who do the same. It's not a terrible keyboard, honestly. I'm reserving judgement on the new one until I try it, but if that guy is right it sounds kind of bad.

[Eugene]

USB Type-C connectors are physically inferior to the Lightning connector in at least one major sense. The female receptacle makes use of a fragile tongue. In contrast, the Lightning male connector is itself the tongue.

Also a reminder that Lightning is just a reconfigurable connector and not a serial bus.

[vivalarevolución]

Wonderful, $80 so I can use two peripherals at the same time.

I wonder how much adapters are a part of Apple's business.  Margins are huge on adapters/cables/connectors/etc.

[jacobolus]

USB Type-C connectors are physically inferior to the Lightning connector in at least one major sense. The female receptacle makes use of a fragile tongue. In contrast, the Lightning male connector is itself the tongue. Also a reminder that Lightning is just a reconfigurable connector and not a serial bus.

On the flip side, USB Type C is a EU-mandated standard (at least for phones) that will soon be used by the majority of all gadgets in the world.

[Findecanor]

They also integrated FireWire instead of USB when USB started to become popular and only conceded to adding USB ports when it started to become ubiquitous.

Nah. I think that it was more that they focused more on Firewire ports for as long as it had a speed advantage over USB.
Firewire was also not Apple-proprietary, and neither is Thunderbolt actually.

[jacobolus]

Every computer Apple ever shipped with Firewire had faster Firewire than the same-era USB (and same story with Thunderbolt). I’m sure there are plenty of folks out there who appreciate having the faster bus as an option. Also, there’s no “instead of USB”: Apple has been shipping machines with close to the cutting edge of USB continuously since 1997 1998.

If Apple didn’t exist, I’m guessing USB adoption would be at least a decade behind where it is today, and computer vendors would still be shipping parallel, serial, SCSI, PS/2, VGA, telephone, ethernet, etc. jacks on all their machines. Oh wait, they still are.

[Salaryman Ryan]

The only thing that really makes me wonder about USB-C is why the new shape? Why not just use  USB-A shape like they did with all their reiterations? Perhaps for a smaller footprint or some technical reason we don't know?

[Oobly]

Every computer Apple ever shipped with Firewire had faster Firewire than the same-era USB (and same story with Thunderbolt). I’m sure there are plenty of folks out there who appreciate having the faster bus as an option. Also, there’s no “instead of USB”: Apple has been shipping machines with close to the cutting edge of USB continuously since 1997.

If Apple didn’t exist, I’m guessing USB adoption would be at least a decade behind where it is today, and computer vendors would still be shipping parallel, serial, SCSI, PS/2, VGA, telephone, ethernet, etc. jacks on all their machines. Oh wait, they still are.

Yup, and now all those Firewire and Thunderbolt peripherals are going to become lumps of useless "old" tech since they're not compatible with USB-C. Same as when they removed all the old proprietary ports when switching to USB. Then they started introducing new proprietary ports again and the cycle repeats.

Apple weren't even in the group of companies who came up with the spec and implementation rules of USB and their first machine with USB ports came out in 1998, so on their earlier machines it was "instead of USB". PC motherboards with USB ports had been out a while already. Then there's the fact that Apple owned the naming rights for "FireWire", so when implemented on PC's it was often simply called IEEE 1394 to avoid having to pay a royalty to Apple.

I do think Apple helped get USB more established, but only by removing their old propietary ports when introducing it to their range and making it more attractive for peripheral manufacturers.

However, PS/2 was / is arguably better for keyboard and mouse comunication, so universal adoption of USB by peripheral manufacturers was perhaps not really so awesome anyway.

Apple have a habit of doing things their own way, forcing people to buy new versions of items they already have due to incompatibility and then doing it all over again. Just look at ADB, the iPhone / iPod 30 pin connector and now FireWire, Thunderbolt and Lightning, all going the way of the dinosaur if they implement USB-C more universally. If instead they had adopted PS/2 alongside USB and Mini/MicroUSB for their portables like all other manufacturers they wouldn't be causing such problems to their own customers.

The new shape of USB-C is to allow the extra pins needed for more power and more types / speeds of data and to allow it to be inserted either way without affecting function, so you don't have to pay attention to the orientation of the plug when inserting it.

[vivalarevolución]

Apple have a habit of doing things their own way, forcing people to buy new versions of items they already have due to incompatibility and then doing it all over again. Just look at ADB, the iPhone / iPod 30 pin connector and now FireWire, Thunderbolt and Lightning, all going the way of the dinosaur if they implement USB-C more universally. If instead they had adopted PS/2 alongside USB and Mini/MicroUSB for their portables like all other manufacturers they wouldn't be causing such problems to their own customers.

Apple knows that most of their own customers will let out an audible groan, but eventually go about purchasing the new devices and/or adapters for old devices. 

[mecano]

They also integrated FireWire instead of USB when USB started to become popular and only conceded to adding USB ports when it started to become ubiquitous.

Well they had USB but always late to catch the last train (ie USB 1 when USB 2 was out, USB 2 when USB 3, etc.).
Now there weren't any firewire/usb debate, firewire was clearly better than USB.
No bottlenecks, faster i/o, etc.
In the early days, you really couldn't use high quality video or audio devices through USB, you couldn't plug a DVD burner and a hard drive without witnessing i/o traffic collapsing, etc.
I guess the USB/Firewire debate was started by sellers who needed arguments to sell their firewire less equipments.
It's partly due to the entry fee they would have to pay to the IEEE 1394 consortium (Apple,  Texas Instruments, Sony, Digital Equipment Corporation, IBM, and INMOS/SGS Thomson) to be allowed to use firewire.

[TopreFan333]

This is all way off-topic, but the other thing about USB-C is that for the first time in a while, Apple seems to be embracing an OPEN standard instead of something like Thunderbolt that requires licensing fees to build into products. That bodes well for seeing it come stock on other peripherals and on PCs, which will all just drive it toward ubiquity.

Personally, I'm not 100% sure I'm ready to have to use an adapter to plug in a mouse or a hard drive or my HHKB (back on topic).

[jacobolus]

Apple weren't even in the group of companies who came up with the spec and implementation rules of USB and their first machine with USB ports came out in 1998, so on their earlier machines it was "instead of USB". PC motherboards with USB ports had been out a while already.

Excuse me, you’re correct, 1998, not 1997. Not sure what I was thinking. Anyway, Steve Jobs came back to Apple in mid-1997. Apple machines pre- vs. post-iMac is two somewhat different eras. During the mid-1990s the company was floundering around, with no clear vision for figuring out a multitasking operating system, or finding new markets for their products. After 1997, well, you know the story.

But... while there were indeed earlier machines to include USB, there was virtually zero uptake of USB in the market. In 1998 most peripherals (scanners, printers, keyboards, graphics tablets, webcams, external hard drives, ...) all pretty much ignored USB, because it had a tiny market and customers didn’t care. Then the iMac happened, with nothing but USB and audio in/out ports, it was the most talked about computer in years, Apple sold millions of them within a couple years, and fairly quickly there was tons of USB compatible stuff available.

Edit: 2 more things to add. (1) USB support in Windows 95 was awful, and (2) USB 1.0 had some really severe problems, fixed in USB 1.1. As such, it didn’t make much sense for anyone to include USB ports or build USB devices before 1998 anyway.

Apple have a habit of doing things their own way, forcing people to buy new versions of items they already have due to incompatibility and then doing it all over again. Just look at ADB, [...] If instead they had adopted PS/2 alongside USB and Mini/MicroUSB for their portables like all other manufacturers they wouldn't be causing such problems to their own customers.

This is nonsense. ADB dates from 1986. PS/2 dates from 1987. ADB is a dramatically better bus. During which historical time frame do you think they should have switched from their own superior bus to the IBM version?

[jacobolus]

This is all way off-topic, but the other thing about USB-C is that for the first time in a while, Apple seems to be embracing an OPEN standard instead of something like Thunderbolt that requires licensing fees to build into products.

You should go ***** at Intel about Thunderbolt licensing requirements.

[TopreFan333]

You should go ***** at Intel about Thunderbolt licensing requirements.

I would, but I don't give enough of a sh*t. Thunderbolt is great for pros and their needs, and they can have it. Meanwhile my current Macs both have USB 3.0, which is fine for my purposes. Your point?

[mecano]

I wonder how these keys feel, waiting for these macbook to show at a near Apple Center.
Three days ago I had to type back on a macbook pro keyboard and the feeling was so mushy, was like the keyboard was fighting against me compared to a mechanical. I was quiet surprised because I'm not using a mechanical for long and my last souvenir of the macbook pro keyboard was quiet pleasing.

[jacobolus]

Your point?

My point is, Apple is just trying to make the best product they can. They need thunderbolt ports for external display support, and fast connections to peripherals, purposes for which thunderbolt has notable advantages over USB 3.0, HDMI, DVI, etc. They’re not just sticking them on there to make people on a forum angry about peripheral bus incompatibilities and licensing.

As far as I can tell, the demand for something like the USB 3.1 Type C connector was kickstarted because Samsung/LG/HTC/Motorola/Nokia/etc. want their phones and tablets to be competitive with iPhones and iPads on how thin they can be, and Apple’s Lightning connector is noticeably smaller than USB Micro B connectors (especially the absurd USB 3.0 Micro B), can carry more power for faster charging, and is much sturdier and reversible. Competing cellphone/tablet makers scrambled to get the USB consortium to fix their **** ASAP, and in the mean time their tablets were stuck with weird proprietary connectors (Samsung’s ironically looks similar to the old Apple iPod connector) instead of USB micro.

The USB consortium figured out how to take on both Lightning as a connector for tiny gadgets, and Thunderbolt/DisplayPort/DVI/HDMI as a connector for higher-bandwidth stuff, and simplify consumers’ lives by making both ends of the cord have the same reversible type of plug. It’s actually pretty impressive that it only took 2.5 years after the Lightning connector was introduced to have USB type C ready for action.

Anyway, I think USB 3.1 Type C is great, as I’ve said before. I can’t wait until all computers ship with type C instead of type A ports, and most gadgets use type C ports, and anyone with legacy devices has to just get an adapter.

[iron_alchemist2108S]

[5 Days Later]

Breaking News: Apple CEO under fire for allegations of ripping off their new butterfly switches from [nameless company in South Korea or Japan]. No one cares, everyone moves on with their life, and [nameless company in South Korea or Japan] continues to have their patents ripped off by Apple, and their stock prices drop while Apple's stock soars.

Seriously people. I bet they took this from someone else. Apple has a nasty habit of getting "inspiration" for their "inventions" from crazy "unknown" sources (hard to convey sarcasm across the internet). Every time they come out with something "new", it's like they invented a new inert gas. I agree that they should just make the MacBook Pro with a clean keyboard platform (no keys) to allow people to just plop their mechs down on top of it. However, I don't use Macs  .

[Eugene]

They take existing products and make them better (music portables in 2001, smartphones in 2007) or better looking. That's a pretty good track record. If there's not a single notable butterfly switch keyboard with mass availability, who cares if someone else already invented it...they failed.

And speaking of Apple stock, it was wort $1/share as recently as 2001. They've had their ups and downs.

[mecano]

They take existing products and make them better (music portables in 2001, smartphones in 2007) or better looking.

This is highly discutable some good example pops up to mind like 17 years of non flac support in iTunes, yellowing and crackling plastics in less than 1 year of use, toilet seat computer design, several recursing drops on several hardware and software solutions, trash can high end computer design, locking users in their coral more than often by removing functionalities that made them free and were available for years (forcing sync through icloud for example), etc.

There are no perfect company and Apple while having some wonders to offer is not out of the game when it comes to errors, wrong choices and fallacies.
And yes they stole the mouse ! 

"Junk is the ultimate merchandise. The junk merchant does not sell his product to the consumer, he sells the consumer to the product. He does not improve and simplify his merchandise, he degrades and simplifies the client." W. S. Burroughs

[mecano]

Seriously you have to buy a phone to use a watch?

Now back on keys! Anyone touch'em yet?

[TopreFan333]

Seriously you have to buy a phone to use a watch?

Now back on keys! Anyone touch'em yet?

I dare say the keyboard will be the deciding factor on whether I replace my 11" MBA with one. Even though it's small, I can't carry my HHKB everywhere...

[jdcarpe]

Seriously you have to buy a phone to use a watch?

Now back on keys! Anyone touch'em yet?

I dare say the keyboard will be the deciding factor on whether I replace my 11" MBA with one. Even though it's small, I can't carry my HHKB everywhere...

HHKB too big. Get a JD40/JD45.

[trauring]

As jacobolus pointed out, they did indeed change the typeface on the keys, from VAG Rounded (which has been on its keyboards since 1999, and was originally designed for VW in the 1970s) to San Francisco (an Apple-developed font designed to make text more legible on the Apple Watch). Some more details including the font info (but mostly the same info announced with the new MacBook) in this article:

http://appleinsider.com/articles/15/03/28/apples-new-macbook-employs-unorthodox-keyboard-design-to-achieve-maximum-thinness

[jacobolus]

Now hopefully they can replace the system UI font in Mac OS (and maybe iOS?) with San Francisco too, instead of the awful illegible Helvetica they just switched to in the previous version.

[bhtooefr]

So I've laid hands on this.

Feels like almost no travel, but if we're counting a Cherry MX blue as tactile (it's not very tactile, but unlike Edgar Matias, I will admit that it is tactile), then this is possibly a bit more sharply tactile than MX blues. Can't really be called clicky, I had to put my ear next to it to hear it. I suspect that it wouldn't take me long to get going quite fast on it, although I just played with it for a few minutes in the Apple Store.

Definitely better than the 2 mm travel scissor-stabilized rubber dome on my MacBook Pro Retina, despite the even shorter travel.

[sypl]

I tried it today as well, and it isn't bad. They keys feel really weird at first because the travel is so, so low. And because the keys are almost at a level with the plate/chassis/body it almost feels disconcerting, as I'm used to feeling for the next key via the gaps between them on a mac keyboard.

The keys are quite a bit larger and the gap reduced, so you have to get used to that. How long does that take though? Not long. I feel I was back up to normal typing speed and accuracy within 10 minutes. Bigger keys are definitely more forgiving.

Most importantly is that it's predictable. It breaks exactly in the same place each time with a fairly quiet 'dok!', and that's about all the tactility I need to be honest. I kind of like the idea that my fingers will have to travel even less than before vertically. I'm a fan of low travel keys: https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=70924.0

Those worried about the change in arrow cluster shape needn't worry. The shape of the the up and down arrows, where there's a curve in the key between them, makes homing in fairly simple.

My left ring finger and pinkie hurt after about half an hour, but I don't know if that's the keyboard or just acclimation. It's possible the bottoming out is too hard. Would have to type extensively to know for sure though.

[CaplockJack]

I'm thinking of buying one too.

[joneslee85]

Worst keyboard ever. I feel like I was typing a an iPad touch screen. The travel distance is so low, it just feel like there is no tactile feedback and it's like you are typing a very hard surface ( in my case I think it's more akin to typing on iPad ). It's ****, I hope that they don't end up bringing this keyboard type over to Macbook pro and air because the previous version is way way better. Trust me , this butterfly **** is really crap. I totally regret buying new macbook, it makes my coding job less enjoyable and I'm planning to sell it soon.

[Altis]

Tried it, really wasn't fond of it -- and I'm the one who has spoken highly of the Apple aluminum keyboard quite frequently.

The keyboard is a solution to the laptop as a whole, and as such is entirely a compromise. It's so the device can be super small, which somehow is supposed to make it more portable.

Anyways, as much as I like Apple,  I have no idea why anyone would buy the new MacBook over the new Surface 3, which is half the price and has very good pen input and actual ports without needing all kinds of adapters. The TypeCover, while not that great, isn't any worse than the keyboard in the new MacBook, anyways.

[mecano]

And so the hunt for hybrid/tablet laptop hackintosh you can use with a mk can begin… I've spotted the core M acer switch 12 which looks like a good candidate

[TopreFan333]

And so the hunt for hybrid/tablet laptop hackintosh you can use with a mk can begin… I've spotted the core M acer switch 12 which looks like a good candidate

In a perfect world, I'd be into a tablet with a USB port sufficient to power an HHKB. iPad ideally, but I'd consider a Surface if it had enough power.

Actually, for my use (writing) the most perfect thing ever would be a high-res e-ink tablet with a mechanical keyboard plugged into it.

[jacobolus]

e-ink is too high latency to be good for a drawing tablet. Too bad Pixel Qi is dead; a mashup of one of their displays with a Wacom digitizer would be sweet.

[TopreFan333]

e-ink is too high latency to be good for a drawing tablet. Too bad Pixel Qi is dead; a mashup of one of their displays with a Wacom digitizer would be sweet.

Yeah, I don't need a drawing tablet -- just after a nice, clean display for text.

[mecano]

In a perfect world, I'd be into a tablet with a USB port sufficient to power an HHKB. iPad ideally, but I'd consider a Surface if it had enough power.

Actually, for my use (writing) the most perfect thing ever would be a high-res e-ink tablet with a mechanical keyboard plugged into it.

Problem with the iPad is the OS, not even a shell out of the box.
I would love to have one only for the Logic Remote though

e-ink is too high latency to be good for a drawing tablet. Too bad Pixel Qi is dead; a mashup of one of their displays with a Wacom digitizer would be sweet.

The Sony DPTS1 looks pretty capable in that area…

Yeah, I don't need a drawing tablet -- just after a nice, clean display for text.

Hey what about a responsive color e-ink with multiple pressure for drawing, usb to hook a keyboard, ethernet for fast and secure sync/network and a next/haiku/bsd/osx OS like?

[Herothereu]

Doesn't the Surface have a color pen?

[mecano]

I had the opportunity to test the macbook keyboard this week end and found it awful, you think you'll hit a key and it feels almost like a touch screen, at least when typing on a screen you know what it will be like.
My wife found it very nice comparing to the previous keyboards, feels far less wobbly.

Doesn't the Surface have a color pen?

a colored pen?

[jamdox]

I had the opportunity to test the macbook keyboard this week end and found it awful,

It's not that bad, considering.  It's basically a 55g tactile switch with a .75mm travel.  Really odd, but useable.

[Eugene]

Put me in the camp that prefers it to the older keyboard, especially the center of the alpha rows.

[TopreFan333]

I had the opportunity to test the macbook keyboard this week end and found it awful,

It's not that bad, considering.  It's basically a 55g tactile switch with a .75mm travel.  Really odd, but useable.

Yow, is that the actuation force? I guess when you have that little travel, you have to make it stiff to prevent accidental keypresses.

[BucklingSpring]

I wonder how many cycles will it take to break the "flexing" joint in the center

https://youtu.be/dLNHJMHIne8

Oh well. Can't make the video working... Not sure what am I doing wrong.

[daerid]

I wonder how many cycles will it take to break the "flexing" joint in the center

https://youtu.be/dLNHJMHIne8

Oh well. Can't make the video working... Not sure what am I doing wrong.

YouTube embedding doesn't support HTTPS.

[mecano]

I had the opportunity to test the macbook keyboard this week end and found it awful,

It's not that bad, considering.  It's basically a 55g tactile switch with a .75mm travel.  Really odd, but useable.

Yes odd indeed, when going back to 'long' travel switches I was so pleased I guess this has a lot to do with my first impression on this one.
But didn't test it for long.

[KHAANNN]

(Reviving an old thread)

I had to sell my 2014 Macbook Pro that got swollen after Apple introduced an, in my opinion, intentional performance issue in High Sierra, water under the bridge, I managed to get over it, had to buy a new one

But I have to say, the new Touchbar and the Butterfly switches are BEYOND AWFUL

One one hand, you have the butterfly switches with no travel, very prone to misclicks, and no actual Esc

On the other hand, you have the Touchbar on the top, completely useless (but cool) - but whenever you click Esc or Delete, you end up mis-pressing whatever that was defaultly placed nearby

I started fantasizing about building a mechanical keyboard harness for the Macbook, basically an 60%-ish keyboard that'll get latched onto the Device above the trackpad, otherwise things are really annoying

(Small advice, if you think you'd feel the same way, and about to buy a Macbook, consider one without the Touchbar)
(Opinion: It'd be cool if they replaced the keyboard with a touchscreen with haptic feedback, it'd still be equally useless, but 1000 times more cool, with customizable buttons etc.)

[daerid]

After a year with my late 15" MBP Touchbar... I have to agree. I might enjoy typing on the butterfly switches, but they're horribly inconsistent. They get noisier the warmer the laptop gets, and start sticking a little. The touchbar is absolutely useless.

What I would absolutely love would be lower-profile scissors from the Magic Keyboard 2. Typing on that thing is a dream compared to the previous generation Magic Keyboard, and blows away the butterfly switches, no contest.

[Kevadu]

I've got a new MBP for work (not my choice, they bought it for me).  It's...OK.  Definitely not my first choice for typing on or anything but then what laptop keyboard would be.  It's still workable.  I like the touchbar for adjusting volume and...uh...I like it for adjusting volume.  Yup, kind of neat for that.

But as a vi user I will forever resent them for taking away my Esc key.  Not cool, Apple.  Not cool.

[Puddsy]

feel like typing on two dried lasagna sheets

[rich1051414]

But as a vi user I will forever resent them for taking away my Esc key.  Not cool, Apple.  Not cool.

I thought apple fans say 'If apple doesn't have it, it is just a gimmick'. Let's not bring up that totally not a gimmick touch bar

[daerid]

But as a vi user I will forever resent them for taking away my Esc key.  Not cool, Apple.  Not cool.

Code: [Select]

Ctrl+[ bruh.. been using that for 10 years, almost never hit the actual escape key anymore (at least not in vi/vim)

[Findecanor]

Don't modern vi users typically remap Caps Lock to Escape? On the keyboard that Bill Joy developed vi, the Ctrl key was to the left of A (Caps Lock on Mac) and the Esc key was to the left of Q (Tab on Mac)

[daerid]

I find for general computing it's a lot more useful to have Caps Lock remapped to Control. Escape is still fairly easy to reach, and hitting LCtrl+[ is easy enough in Vim. All about that muscle memory.

[Deefenestrate]

After a year with my late 15" MBP Touchbar... I have to agree. I might enjoy typing on the butterfly switches, but they're horribly inconsistent. They get noisier the warmer the laptop gets, and start sticking a little. The touchbar is absolutely useless.

What I would absolutely love would be lower-profile scissors from the Magic Keyboard 2. Typing on that thing is a dream compared to the previous generation Magic Keyboard, and blows away the butterfly switches, no contest.

The Magic keyboard is nice.

[nogoodnames444]

Im just going to say this they are awful. My parents have the new keyboard for the mac and I can't stand using it.

[Findecanor]

What is a Magic Keyboard 2 ?
Did they update the design in any way other than the ^ and ⌥ symbols?

[daerid]

What is a Magic Keyboard 2 ?
Did they update the design in any way other than the ^ and ⌥ symbols?

Lower-profile and more tactile scissor switches, rechargable battery, lightning connector. About the only thing I don't like about it is they went with full size left and right arrow keys (like on the laptops). But other than that, it's pretty good. The 104 key variant is pretty nice, too (both are wireless).

[Findecanor]

Lower-profile and more tactile scissor switches, rechargable battery, lightning connector. About the only thing I don't like about it is they went with full size left and right arrow keys (like on the laptops). But other than that, it's pretty good. The 104 key variant is pretty nice, too (both are wireless).

No, that's sounds like the "Magic Keyboard" you are describing. There was no previous "Magic Keyboard" (one) that didn't have a Lightning™ connector.

The previous wireless keyboard was called Apple Wireless Keyboard, like previous wireless keyboards for Mac from Apple.

I take it that you are just confused. You are not the only one though. You can find used Apple Wireless Keyboard for sale on auction sites here and there advertised as "Magic Keyboard". It is not.

The only revision of the Magic Keyboard I have heard about is that they would have changed the printing on Control and Option keys slightly in 2017. But I'm not sure whether they added ^ and ⌥ symbols or removed them.

[Rayoui]

I may be in the minority, but I actually like the keyboard on the 2017 MacBook Pro. I was worried after reading all the hate for them online, but I was pleasantly surprised the first time I tried one. It doesn't have much travel but it is snappy and responsive and it has a satisfying "pop" sound.

After using it for a few hours, I switched back to my 2012 MacBook Air and the key switches felt like I was pressing down on pieces of foam. It felt very mushy.

The touch bar is a neat party trick. I could do without it, but I don't regret getting one.

[TopreFan333]

I may be in the minority, but I actually like the keyboard on the 2017 MacBook Pro. I was worried after reading all the hate for them online, but I was pleasantly surprised the first time I tried one. It doesn't have much travel but it is snappy and responsive and it has a satisfying "pop" sound.

After using it for a few hours, I switched back to my 2012 MacBook Air and the key switches felt like I was pressing down on pieces of foam. It felt very mushy.

The touch bar is a neat party trick. I could do without it, but I don't regret getting one.

They definitely improved it since the first rMB version (which is truly abysmal), and I think that auditory feedback does a lot to make up for the shallow key travel. I've gone back and forth between a Magic Keyboard, which is basically like yours, and the MacBook Air keyboard, and I still prefer the latter vastly because I like the travel.

There are also quite a few people, apparently, seeing severe issues with newer MacBook keyboards failing -- and the replacement seems to necessitate replacing the entire top case and costs like $500 if not under AppleCare. That drive to make the MacBooks thinner and thinner is really starting to seem like a mistake to me.

[Blaise170]

For a laptop keyboard, the 2017 MBP is actually really nice. My work gave me a brand new one with the Touchbar and though I hated Macs before, I can't really complain too much. It's close enough to Linux to make programming easy and a small learning curve, while having the software support of a large development community. The switches feel kind of bad after using my Matias board all day, but that's to be expected.

[daerid]

I take it that you are just confused. You are not the only one though. You can find used Apple Wireless Keyboard for sale on auction sites here and there advertised as "Magic Keyboard". It is not.

The only revision of the Magic Keyboard I have heard about is that they would have changed the printing on Control and Option keys slightly in 2017. But I'm not sure whether they added ^ and ⌥ symbols or removed them.

Yeah it seems you're right. Probably didn't help things that the mouse and trackpad were both "Magic Mouse/Trackpad 2", but the keyboard was just "Magic Keyboard". Might have been a better branding move on Apple's part if all the peripherals had similar naming (Magic * 2)

[Rayoui]

I may be in the minority, but I actually like the keyboard on the 2017 MacBook Pro. I was worried after reading all the hate for them online, but I was pleasantly surprised the first time I tried one. It doesn't have much travel but it is snappy and responsive and it has a satisfying "pop" sound.

After using it for a few hours, I switched back to my 2012 MacBook Air and the key switches felt like I was pressing down on pieces of foam. It felt very mushy.

The touch bar is a neat party trick. I could do without it, but I don't regret getting one.

They definitely improved it since the first rMB version (which is truly abysmal), and I think that auditory feedback does a lot to make up for the shallow key travel. I've gone back and forth between a Magic Keyboard, which is basically like yours, and the MacBook Air keyboard, and I still prefer the latter vastly because I like the travel.

There are also quite a few people, apparently, seeing severe issues with newer MacBook keyboards failing -- and the replacement seems to necessitate replacing the entire top case and costs like $500 if not under AppleCare. That drive to make the MacBooks thinner and thinner is really starting to seem like a mistake to me.

Ifixit did a teardown of the magic keyboard. Looks like it uses the traditional scissor mechanism and silicone domes with reduced travel over the old version. The new MacBook keyboard has metal domes which is what gives it that snappy feel.

Not sure about longevity. Luckily, I have three years of AppleCare. 

[ander]

When I saw this, my first thought was "Terminator vagina".

[keylabskeycaps]

Honestly, as far as scissor mechanism keyboards go, I really don't mind my old 2010 macbook unibody. Granted, its no substitute for a quality mechanical keyboard, but I as a heavily upgraded daily driver it does it's job without a problem. I'd be interested to try out the "new" mechanism and see how it holds up.

[Deefenestrate]

Why I have a Dell XPS 13.

[KHAANNN]

I started carrying my Macbook around, I used too have a Macbook Air for school/carrying around etc., never used to carry my actual device, but it turned out to be fun and productive while it lasted

For some time I was wondering why "CMD+V" doesn't work with the built-in keyboard, today, when I was using the device for some light stuff, it started bothering me a lot, it then dawned on me that it could be "V" that is problematic, and traumatically, indeed it is

Then stumbled onto this: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/8106230 - 100 times more traumatic

It seems the Butterfly keyboard is pretty problematic, while writing this, I noticed that my "O" key is also similarly problematic, don't know why but it seems a decay has started, both keys only work only if you hit or press it super strongly, rather than tapping the key - I have a US device in TR, probably can't get it easily serviced, even if it was possible, I read that the service takes 5 days and the entire upper body gets changed

It's such a F* Apple moment, I had to buy this device because the previous one had it's battery swollen right after installing High Sierra, and now this stupidly annoying keyboard issue ...

(Edit: If it happens to anyone, applying a lot of pressure to the key seems to fix/delay the issue)

[KHAANNN]

This looks promising https://www.change.org/p/apple-apple-recall-macbook-pro-w-defective-keyboard-replace-with-different-working-keyboard

[Findecanor]

Louis Rossmann's rant about the quality of the keyboards:

[KHAANNN]

Louis Rossmann's rant about the quality of the keyboards:

Well, watching the video, seems pretty unlikely they'd easily acknowledge the issue

Luckily my "hard pressing" solved the issue for me, curious how things are going to turn out, even if they provide free replacements, the replacement process itself is quite destructive, I wouldn't want a machine that has gone through all that :| - If they provide an upgrade path, that'd be good

I was going to buy an XD75 to put on the Macbook, from specs it seemed like it would fit,  but got scammed by the Aliexpress seller, didn't send it :| - Probably the easiest solution is to find a robust way to integrate a mechanical onto the Macbook

I don't get why they try making the keyboard this slim, it's a ~portable workstation, it could weight 5kg's, be thick as hell, and I wouldn't mind, would be nice if it had those old Alps Apple keyboards on it instead

Edit: I think the issue is more of a contact issue, at least it feels like it, tho, none of the commenters on the issue actually investigates the issue

[tp4tissue]

Louis Rossmann's rant about the quality of the keyboards:

Yea.. bad keebs..  but how else am one suppose to attract the Females @ the Library/ Coffee shop ?

Everyone knows lenovo is for p00r people like Tp4.

Apple's main market share is not tech enthusiast,   it's Vanity driven illiterates.. 

There's a distinct purpose to buying apple which no other company offers. The #1 Label..

[romevi]

I HATE THIS FREAKING STUPID KEYBOARD.

Typing on a 2016 touchbar MBP right now. I'm using it for finals as it has Word and the exam software my school uses. Otherwise, I wouldn't. It's my wife's computer and she even prefers using her older MacBook Air, and she's no keyboard enthusiast by any means.

My main laptop is my 2010 MBP with Linux installed. Love those keys.

[tp4tissue]

I HATE THIS FREAKING STUPID KEYBOARD.

Typing on a 2016 touchbar MBP right now. I'm using it for finals as it has Word and the exam software my school uses. Otherwise, I wouldn't. It's my wife's computer and she even prefers using her older MacBook Air, and she's no keyboard enthusiast by any means.

My main laptop is my 2010 MBP with Linux installed. Love those keys.

Time to upgrade to L3n0v0, the laptop of the p00r .

[KHAANNN]

I HATE THIS FREAKING STUPID KEYBOARD.

Typing on a 2016 touchbar MBP right now. I'm using it for finals as it has Word and the exam software my school uses. Otherwise, I wouldn't. It's my wife's computer and she even prefers using her older MacBook Air, and she's no keyboard enthusiast by any means.

My main laptop is my 2010 MBP with Linux installed. Love those keys.

Time to upgrade to L3n0v0, the laptop of the p00r .

No poor people in this thread plx

[Blaise170]

I really don't think the new switches are bad at all, typing this on a 2017 MBP.

[KHAANNN]

Update - Class action law suit

https://appleinsider.com/articles/18/05/11/apple-hit-with-action-suit-over-macbook-macbook-pro-butterfly-keyboard-failures

[TopreFan333]

I HATE THIS FREAKING STUPID KEYBOARD.

Typing on a 2016 touchbar MBP right now. I'm using it for finals as it has Word and the exam software my school uses. Otherwise, I wouldn't. It's my wife's computer and she even prefers using her older MacBook Air, and she's no keyboard enthusiast by any means.

My main laptop is my 2010 MBP with Linux installed. Love those keys.

Typing on a 2012 MBP right now. It's a solid keyboard. The other thing they really screwed up on the new ones is getting rid of the "inverted T" arrow layout that lets you quickly orient your fingers by touch. For whatever idiot reason they made the ↑ and ↓ keys full-height so they're very hard to feel your way to. Idiots.

[romevi]

The other thing they really screwed up on the new ones is getting rid of the "inverted T" arrow layout that lets you quickly orient your fingers by touch. For whatever idiot reason they made the ↑ and ↓ keys full-height so they're very hard to feel your way to. Idiots.

I always mess that up, but the problem for me isn't the up and down arrows--it's the left and right arrows.
On my 2010 MBP all the arrow keys are the same size, but on the 2016 MBP the left and right arrows are the same size as the main keys. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
I can never find them via touch, and I use that computer almost exclusively come times for midterms and finals.

[KHAANNN]

My "V" issue returned, as predicted by those haunted by the issue

I'm looking for a mechanical to latch on the Macbook itself, I'll likely 3D print a basic adapter that slides from sides, has soft paddings on bottom etc. for long term use - I originally bought an XD84 kit but the seller didn't ship it, considering TADA68 etc. but not very ideal

The TEX 60% cases seem to clear the keyboard too, I have an abundance of those built, but it just barely clears, and I can't think of a design of an easy latch on system, I'll likely take one with me next time I'm going to use the device in a portable manner

If anyone attempts such a venture, go for silent switches

[Altis]

The other thing they really screwed up on the new ones is getting rid of the "inverted T" arrow layout that lets you quickly orient your fingers by touch. For whatever idiot reason they made the ↑ and ↓ keys full-height so they're very hard to feel your way to. Idiots.

I always mess that up, but the problem for me isn't the up and down arrows--it's the left and right arrows.
On my 2010 MBP all the arrow keys are the same size, but on the 2016 MBP the left and right arrows are the same size as the main keys. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
I can never find them via touch, and I use that computer almost exclusively come times for midterms and finals.

Do they just do this for cost-saving measures? There's plenty of space for a full-size, inverted-T arrow cluster if it goes 1 row further out. This used to be common.

My ThinkPad does this, although the keys are still like 75% the size of normal (but same shape).

[ag36]

My "V" issue returned, as predicted by those haunted by the issue

I'm looking for a mechanical to latch on the Macbook itself, I'll likely 3D print a basic adapter that slides from sides, has soft paddings on bottom etc. for long term use - I originally bought an XD84 kit but the seller didn't ship it, considering TADA68 etc. but not very ideal

The TEX 60% cases seem to clear the keyboard too, I have an abundance of those built, but it just barely clears, and I can't think of a design of an easy latch on system, I'll likely take one with me next time I'm going to use the device in a portable manner

If anyone attempts such a venture, go for silent switches

Hows about keep things simple and get a bigger laptop case to carry you keyboard?

[KHAANNN]

My keyboard is an 60% anyway, but to use it portably, as you'd use a laptop, I think the keyboard should somehow be latched onto the device, or it needs to be as wide as the speakers of the macbook, so the rubbers sit on the speakers, I think it's a fruitless pursuit tho - better not to advertise you're a psycho to bystanders by putting a mechanical on a portable device

As someone who's obsessed with arrows on 60%'s, the arrow layout didn't bother me for some reason, I'd guess they made it that way as a design feature, but obviously, their design decisions around the keyboard almost all suck lately

[Rayoui]

Do they just do this for cost-saving measures? There's plenty of space for a full-size, inverted-T arrow cluster if it goes 1 row further out. This used to be common.

My ThinkPad does this, although the keys are still like 75% the size of normal (but same shape).

My assumption is that they did it for visual aesthetic. Apple is very concerned about the appearance of their products so they likely just did it for the sake of symmetry.

I preferred the half-size left and right arrows on the older laptops but I don't have too much trouble with the new design.

I don't mind the feel of the butterfly switches on my 2017 MBP. In fact, I kind of like them. They feel "poppy" and responsive. The noise is not as bad as people make it out to be, certainly not when compared to just about any mechanical board. That said, I haven't yet experienced any issues with stuck keys or repeating characters. If that were to happen, my opinion would certainly change.

[KHAANNN]

My suggestion for you guys to keep dust out of your devices, keep lids closed (Apple's unofficial suggestion is to use an air spray for example, which supports the theories around dust)

My device just sits on the desk 7/24, lid open, dust settles onto the device no matter what, I suspect it could have caused the issue

[Blaise170]

To be fair I only use my MBP 5 days a week for 8 hours a day. And the majority of the time it's sitting on a stand next to my actual keyboard. I still don't mind it though.

[rich1051414]

https://9to5mac.com/2018/05/12/apple-keyboard-lawsuit/