Feedback on Site Run Group Buys

[billnye]

Finally, I believe that geekhack has and should have no responsibility in how group buys are conducted.

I agree.

Caveat emptor.

[katushkin]

More

Is one a vendor and the other under artisan?
 Or one an actual business versus just members running buys?

 I know you can argue ctrlalt is a business with the volume they do but that isn't their goal. Whereas UKKeycaps is actually having a storefront to sell things to make money with or without us here and that's what pays the bills.

Also in the case of the escape pack I think UKKeycaps was buying caps to sell anyway and just offered them here to help get them paid for to put in their store.

And sometimes it seems like it depends on how involved people actually are in the community. As in do they only come here to sell things or are they actually part of the community and is the community involved in helping with set decisions or at least discussing sets etc.

I get the distinction betweek UKKeycaps being a vendor, and ctrlalt being an artisan, but if you start selling t-shirts, does that mean you are still just an artisan? The GB is organised by the guys running ctrlalt, it's run on ctrlalt, you pay through ctrlalt, and extras will be sold on ctrlalt, so why not have the thread in ctrlalt? I do get the difference in community involvement, but I don't think there is enough difference between the two buys for there to be a difference in location.

id be interested to help create some kind of geekhack platform which would act as a financial vault for GBs. Have some ideas. Anyone intersted in helping out, please feel free to pm me.

If anything I think that could make it worse. This would create a single point of failure for every single GB, if the person in charge of the "vault" decided to do a runner. Just wait until there are a dozen or so GBs going on, and leave with potentially tens of thousands of dollars.

[livingspeedbump]

id be interested to help create some kind of geekhack platform which would act as a financial vault for GBs. Have some ideas. Anyone intersted in helping out, please feel free to pm me.

I understand the reasoning here, but do not think this is a good idea at all. Not only does it open up a lot of odd liability and tax issues, there is almost just as much that could go wrong with a "vault" as normal GB's and the risks just wouldnt make it worth the effort at all I dont think.

[demik]

All I'd really like (and basically the only thing GH can actually control) is how many GBs a person/group can run at a time. Too many and you have a bigger possibility of scamming. Or the work becomes too much and nothing ever finishes on time and people have to sit their with a thumb up their ass waiting.

[nubbinator]

A GH vault is a bad idea.  A certified escrow service is a good one.  If love to see a third party collect the funds or be given the funds within 90 days,  distribute them to the manufacturer, and only release the remaining funds to the GB runner after they receive the goods.

An escrow service would greatly reduce the risk of scams and other problems, but I haven't seen anything like that available abd the bonding cost may be too high.

All I'd really like (and basically the only thing GH can actually control) is how many GBs a person/group can run at a time. Too many and you have a bigger possibility of scamming. Or the work becomes too much and nothing ever finishes on time and people have to sit their with a thumb up their ass waiting.

Agreed.  It's fine to have a few buys, but you can't keep launching new ones when you have a bunch unfinished.      If you want to run two more buys while finishing one, you need to show meaningful progress on the unfinished one.

[livingspeedbump]

All I'd really like (and basically the only thing GH can actually control) is how many GBs a person/group can run at a time. Too many and you have a bigger possibility of scamming. Or the work becomes too much and nothing ever finishes on time and people have to sit their with a thumb up their ass waiting.

Agreed.  It's fine to have a few buys, but you can't keep launching new ones when you have a bunch unfinished.      If you want to run two more buys while finishing one, you need to show meaningful progress on the unfinished one.

Yeah, I don't see a downside to this. Sounds like you are talking about a case-by-case basis, with some limitations in place. Which I agree is better than my original idea about stricter limitations. JD is a good example of someone that has been pushing out his GB's on a very quick schedule with overlap. Many seem to get bogged down by taking on too much at once though, so what is the point in letting people like that start new buys when they cant finish old ones in a normal/reasonable time frame?

[harlw]

All I'd really like (and basically the only thing GH can actually control) is how many GBs a person/group can run at a time. Too many and you have a bigger possibility of scamming. Or the work becomes too much and nothing ever finishes on time and people have to sit their with a thumb up their ass waiting.

Agreed.  It's fine to have a few buys, but you can't keep launching new ones when you have a bunch unfinished.      If you want to run two more buys while finishing one, you need to show meaningful progress on the unfinished one.

Yeah, I don't see a downside to this. Sounds like you are talking about a case-by-case basis, with some limitations in place. Which I agree is better than my original idea about stricter limitations. JD is a good example of someone that has been pushing out his GB's on a very quick schedule with overlap. Many seem to get bogged down by taking on too much at once though, so what is the point in letting people like that start new buys when they cant finish old ones in a normal/reasonable time frame?

The problem with this is that every mod will implement it differently and the tendency over time will be for the standards to loosen until we are basically where we are now.

[rowdy]

A GH vault is a bad idea.  A certified escrow service is a good one.  If love to see a third party collect the funds or be given the funds within 90 days,  distribute them to the manufacturer, and only release the remaining funds to the GB runner after they receive the goods.

An escrow service would greatly reduce the risk of scams and other problems, but I haven't seen anything like that available abd the bonding cost may be too high.

I'm

All I'd really like (and basically the only thing GH can actually control) is how many GBs a person/group can run at a time. Too many and you have a bigger possibility of scamming. Or the work becomes too much and nothing ever finishes on time and people have to sit their with a thumb up their ass waiting.

Agreed.  It's fine to have a few buys, but you can't keep launching new ones when you have a bunch unfinished.      If you want to run two more buys while finishing one, you need to show meaningful progress on the unfinished one.

How would this work in situations where the GB ends up costing more than originally planned?

There was a GB very recently where international postage costs increased during the GB, and the GB organiser stumped up tbe extra funds with a request in the thread for people to give an extra $5 if they could.

And situations where the items are made, paid for and delivered to the GB organiser, who then fails to actually ship anything?

[henz]

A GH vault is a bad idea.  A certified escrow service is a good one.  If love to see a third party collect the funds or be given the funds within 90 days,  distribute them to the manufacturer, and only release the remaining funds to the GB runner after they receive the goods.

An escrow service would greatly reduce the risk of scams and other problems, but I haven't seen anything like that available abd the bonding cost may be too high.

This is what I had in mind

[user 18]

All I'd really like (and basically the only thing GH can actually control) is how many GBs a person/group can run at a time. Too many and you have a bigger possibility of scamming. Or the work becomes too much and nothing ever finishes on time and people have to sit their with a thumb up their ass waiting.

Agreed.  It's fine to have a few buys, but you can't keep launching new ones when you have a bunch unfinished.      If you want to run two more buys while finishing one, you need to show meaningful progress on the unfinished one.

Yeah, I don't see a downside to this. Sounds like you are talking about a case-by-case basis, with some limitations in place. Which I agree is better than my original idea about stricter limitations. JD is a good example of someone that has been pushing out his GB's on a very quick schedule with overlap. Many seem to get bogged down by taking on too much at once though, so what is the point in letting people like that start new buys when they cant finish old ones in a normal/reasonable time frame?

The problem with this is that every mod will implement it differently and the tendency over time will be for the standards to loosen until we are basically where we are now.

Typically for a decision like that, we would discuss as a group, rather than leave it up to an individual mod. We'd also document for ourselves who we gave permission to, and for what reasons.

[nubbinator]

A GH vault is a bad idea.  A certified escrow service is a good one.  If love to see a third party collect the funds or be given the funds within 90 days,  distribute them to the manufacturer, and only release the remaining funds to the GB runner after they receive the goods.

An escrow service would greatly reduce the risk of scams and other problems, but I haven't seen anything like that available abd the bonding cost may be too high.

I'm

All I'd really like (and basically the only thing GH can actually control) is how many GBs a person/group can run at a time. Too many and you have a bigger possibility of scamming. Or the work becomes too much and nothing ever finishes on time and people have to sit their with a thumb up their ass waiting.

Agreed.  It's fine to have a few buys, but you can't keep launching new ones when you have a bunch unfinished.      If you want to run two more buys while finishing one, you need to show meaningful progress on the unfinished one.

How would this work in situations where the GB ends up costing more than originally planned?

There was a GB very recently where international postage costs increased during the GB, and the GB organiser stumped up tbe extra funds with a request in the thread for people to give an extra $5 if they could.

And situations where the items are made, paid for and delivered to the GB organiser, who then fails to actually ship anything?

In the first case, it's easy, invoice shipping after the product is received or confirmed to be in production.

The second one is trickier abd the GH60 buy is a perfect example of that.  That's another buy where an escrow service would have been useful as funds were obviously mismanaged by TJ and people have had to eat costs and pony up additional funding despite there being a substantial profit on the buy.

[xiaodian317]

A GH vault is a bad idea.  A certified escrow service is a good one.  If love to see a third party collect the funds or be given the funds within 90 days,  distribute them to the manufacturer, and only release the remaining funds to the GB runner after they receive the goods.

An escrow service would greatly reduce the risk of scams and other problems, but I haven't seen anything like that available abd the bonding cost may be too high.

All I'd really like (and basically the only thing GH can actually control) is how many GBs a person/group can run at a time. Too many and you have a bigger possibility of scamming. Or the work becomes too much and nothing ever finishes on time and people have to sit their with a thumb up their ass waiting.

Agreed.  It's fine to have a few buys, but you can't keep launching new ones when you have a bunch unfinished.      If you want to run two more buys while finishing one, you need to show meaningful progress on the unfinished one.

I totally agree with the idea about the escrow service.
The buyers can choose the way to pay the goods.
1.) The traditional GB way
2.) The agency safe way
And they must pay a little fees(eg,.$10) for the 2.) safe service.
The runner would take more $8 for the hard work.
The agency would take the 2$ for the safekeeping.

GH's management team could do this work.

[user 18]

A GH vault is a bad idea.  A certified escrow service is a good one.  If love to see a third party collect the funds or be given the funds within 90 days,  distribute them to the manufacturer, and only release the remaining funds to the GB runner after they receive the goods.

An escrow service would greatly reduce the risk of scams and other problems, but I haven't seen anything like that available abd the bonding cost may be too high.

All I'd really like (and basically the only thing GH can actually control) is how many GBs a person/group can run at a time. Too many and you have a bigger possibility of scamming. Or the work becomes too much and nothing ever finishes on time and people have to sit their with a thumb up their ass waiting.

Agreed.  It's fine to have a few buys, but you can't keep launching new ones when you have a bunch unfinished.      If you want to run two more buys while finishing one, you need to show meaningful progress on the unfinished one.

I totally agree with the idea about the escrow service.
The buyers can choose the way to pay the goods.
1.) The traditional GB way
2.) The agency safe way
And they must pay a little fees(eg,.$10) for the 2.) safe service.
The runner would take more $8 for the hard work.
The agency would take the 2$ for the safekeeping.

GH's management team could do this work.

Geekhack does not have the ability to provide this kind of service. If GB runners want to use an escrow service, it would need to be something offsite.

[calvinhousecat]

I believe GBs should provide the source/contact email to the companies that are manufacturing the products of the GB.

For example, the Kishsaver group buy that is running right now (I am by no means advocating Ellipse is a scammer, I'm just using him as an example), maybe I haven't read through the entire thread properly but did he ever provide where and who the companies he is working with?

How do we know that he ever sent the payment? (again not saying he is a scammer)

There should be contact emails of the companies manufacturing our goods so we can contact them with the thread link asking if the payment was ever sent.

EDIT: Also this too

All I'd really like (and basically the only thing GH can actually control) is how many GBs a person/group can run at a time. Too many and you have a bigger possibility of scamming. Or the work becomes too much and nothing ever finishes on time and people have to sit their with a thumb up their ass waiting.

Maybe for every completed GB, they can build enough credit for the mods to let them run multiple GBs at once.

[xondat]

Caveat emptor, or whatever that phrase is. Users should be aware who and what they're giving their money to. I don't think GH should be named as being part of the problem. There's **** all you can do about a trusted member running off; some would suggest money has to be moving within a month or something which I can agree with. Leaders should list deadlines and if they aren't met then it better be a good ****ing reason.

[jdcarpe]

No, group buy organizers/leaders should NOT have to reveal their manufacturing partners or suppliers. If you don't trust the organizer to have the goods made and delivered, don't join the group buy. Everyone wants everything to be open and transparent, but there are some things that are and should be considered proprietary and confidential. If people insist that everything be 100% transparent to the participants, organizers will most likely decide it's not worth it to do the buy at all.

[calvinhousecat]

Is providing a company name that much of a hassle? I believe it can be a win win situation for both sides, the company gets free advertising and we at least know where we are putting our money into.

All the restaurants I've eaten at are not afraid of telling the customers where they purchased their meat or their vegetables.

[livingspeedbump]

No, group buy organizers/leaders should NOT have to reveal their manufacturing partners or suppliers. If you don't trust the organizer to have the goods made and delivered, don't join the group buy. Everyone wants everything to be open and transparent, but there are some things that are and should be considered proprietary and confidential. If people insist that everything be 100% transparent to the participants, organizers will most likely decide it's not worth it to do the buy at all.

Yeah I do agree with JD here. While i totally understand the reasoning behind showing this information and am all for more transparency and accountability for buys, things like manufacturing partners/suppliers shouldn't be mandatory to make public. If you trust a leader enough to consider joining a buy, but are hung up on concerns with the manufacturing of the product, I'd highly recommend just approaching the GB leader on the issue.

[jdcarpe]

Is providing a company name that much of a hassle? I believe it can be a win win situation for both sides, the company gets free advertising and we at least know where we are putting our money into.

All the restaurants I've eaten at are not afraid of telling the customers where they purchased their meat or their vegetables.

Because the restaurant is selling you the preparation and service, more than the actual raw product.

Sometimes the relationship with the manufacturer or supplier is actually something of value to the organizer, and they wouldn't want to reveal that information. If every participant starts bugging the supplier with a barrage of emails, because the buy is a bit late or whatever, that supplier might decide not to do business with the organizer in the future.

[calvinhousecat]

Is providing a company name that much of a hassle? I believe it can be a win win situation for both sides, the company gets free advertising and we at least know where we are putting our money into.

All the restaurants I've eaten at are not afraid of telling the customers where they purchased their meat or their vegetables.

Because the restaurant is selling you the preparation and service, more than the actual raw product.

Sometimes the relationship with the manufacturer or supplier is actually something of value to the organizer, and they wouldn't want to reveal that information. If every participant starts bugging the supplier with a barrage of emails, because the buy is a bit late or whatever, that supplier might decide not to do business with the organizer in the future.

That is a very good point, I definitely undervalued the relationship between the manufacturer and supplier

[livingspeedbump]

Is providing a company name that much of a hassle? I believe it can be a win win situation for both sides, the company gets free advertising and we at least know where we are putting our money into.

All the restaurants I've eaten at are not afraid of telling the customers where they purchased their meat or their vegetables.

Because the restaurant is selling you the preparation and service, more than the actual raw product.

Sometimes the relationship with the manufacturer or supplier is actually something of value to the organizer, and they wouldn't want to reveal that information. If every participant starts bugging the supplier with a barrage of emails, because the buy is a bit late or whatever, that supplier might decide not to do business with the organizer in the future.

That is a very good point, I definitely undervalued the relationship between the manufacturer and supplier

I think in many cases the manufacturer public and known info more often than not. Especially for things like caps, pcbs, and such. Some things are unknown in buys here and there, but really I think most of the time that's simply because it hasn't ever really been asked about before.

[demik]

No, group buy organizers/leaders should NOT have to reveal their manufacturing partners or suppliers.

it was funny how GH flipped their **** when sherry didn't tell them about GMK.


GB leaders don't owe it to anybody to reveal who they get their stuff from. delivery of the product without flaws and in a timely manner is all people joining should care about.

[livingspeedbump]

So thinking about it a bit more, I don't see any reason at all there shouldn't be a limit to the number of group buys someone/vendor/whatever can run. Originally I was thinking a strict site wide limit, but that doesn't make much sense in all honesty and I realize that now. I think JDcarpe was spot-on in suggesting that it should be a case-by-case deal, but I think it should be enforced.

Obviously it would be silly to have a set limit. Using JD as an example, he currently has the January Cap finishing up (maybe all shipped, was extremely quick buy) and Feb caps in line with the JD45 starting up. it would be crazy to not let the JD45 run because of the two previous buys. In his case, both other buys are on schedule and accounted for, and his past GB record is spotless.

Now, some people here have 3-4 buys that arent 100% done from 1, even 2 years ago. While there may be valid reasons for some of the delays, i feel there are definitely some dual standards here. At some point I think someone should not be allowed to start new buys until old ones are 100% completed.

In many ways this helps buyers and leaders alike. For leaders stopping new buys from starting when a reasonable number are still incomplete will make sure they have time to talk to the vendors/manufacturers/customers to get the product out on time without being tied up in new buys. For buyers, it protect them a bit more from crazy delays, or from someone like Ivan with multiple open buys running off mid buy.

If someone is new and doing a buy on their own, without a veteran member, why not limit it just to 1? See how it goes, work up to doing more if that is something you want to happen. Regardless on if you are making money, you are doing no service to the community if the buys get really delayed or go south, and really its just going to hurt buys in the future because everyone will be so timid to join anything if things keep up at this pace. And like it or not, buys that go south definitely reflect on the GH community as a whole, for the worse.

[byker]

So thinking about it a bit more, I don't see any reason at all there shouldn't be a limit to the number of group buys someone/vendor/whatever can run. Originally I was thinking a strict site wide limit, but that doesn't make much sense in all honesty and I realize that now. I think JDcarpe was spot-on in suggesting that it should be a case-by-case deal, but I think it should be enforced.

Obviously it would be silly to have a set limit. Using JD as an example, he currently has the January Cap finishing up (maybe all shipped, was extremely quick buy) and Feb caps in line with the JD45 starting up. it would be crazy to not let the JD45 run because of the two previous buys. In his case, both other buys are on schedule and accounted for, and his past GB record is spotless.

Now, some people here have 3-4 buys that arent 100% done from 1, even 2 years ago. While there may be valid reasons for some of the delays, i feel there are definitely some dual standards here. At some point I think someone should not be allowed to start new buys until old ones are 100% completed.

In many ways this helps buyers and leaders alike. For leaders stopping new buys from starting when a reasonable number are still incomplete will make sure they have time to talk to the vendors/manufacturers/customers to get the product out on time without being tied up in new buys. For buyers, it protect them a bit more from crazy delays, or from someone like Ivan with multiple open buys running off mid buy.

If someone is new and doing a buy on their own, without a veteran member, why not limit it just to 1? See how it goes, work up to doing more if that is something you want to happen. Regardless on if you are making money, you are doing no service to the community if the buys get really delayed or go south, and really its just going to hurt buys in the future because everyone will be so timid to join anything if things keep up at this pace. And like it or not, buys that go south definitely reflect on the GH community as a whole, for the worse.

We actually have this unofficial rule right now. As a mod team, we have been allowing two group buys per person, unless they are someone who has/had an established successful history running group buys.

However we will consider lowering that to 1/person for sure, just wanted to provide some background.

[livingspeedbump]

So thinking about it a bit more, I don't see any reason at all there shouldn't be a limit to the number of group buys someone/vendor/whatever can run. Originally I was thinking a strict site wide limit, but that doesn't make much sense in all honesty and I realize that now. I think JDcarpe was spot-on in suggesting that it should be a case-by-case deal, but I think it should be enforced.

Obviously it would be silly to have a set limit. Using JD as an example, he currently has the January Cap finishing up (maybe all shipped, was extremely quick buy) and Feb caps in line with the JD45 starting up. it would be crazy to not let the JD45 run because of the two previous buys. In his case, both other buys are on schedule and accounted for, and his past GB record is spotless.

Now, some people here have 3-4 buys that arent 100% done from 1, even 2 years ago. While there may be valid reasons for some of the delays, i feel there are definitely some dual standards here. At some point I think someone should not be allowed to start new buys until old ones are 100% completed.

In many ways this helps buyers and leaders alike. For leaders stopping new buys from starting when a reasonable number are still incomplete will make sure they have time to talk to the vendors/manufacturers/customers to get the product out on time without being tied up in new buys. For buyers, it protect them a bit more from crazy delays, or from someone like Ivan with multiple open buys running off mid buy.

If someone is new and doing a buy on their own, without a veteran member, why not limit it just to 1? See how it goes, work up to doing more if that is something you want to happen. Regardless on if you are making money, you are doing no service to the community if the buys get really delayed or go south, and really its just going to hurt buys in the future because everyone will be so timid to join anything if things keep up at this pace. And like it or not, buys that go south definitely reflect on the GH community as a whole, for the worse.

We actually have this unofficial rule right now. As a mod team, we have been allowing two group buys per person, unless they are someone who has/had an established successful history running group buys.

However we will consider lowering that to 1/person for sure, just wanted to provide some background.

So what about people with 3+ unfinished GB's?

[riotonthebay]

So what about people with 3+ unfinished GB's?

I'll assume that in your eagerness to make veiled jabs, you passed over the following:

As a mod team, we have been allowing two group buys per person, unless they are someone who has/had an established successful history running group buys.

You're welcome 

[demik]

So what about people with 3+ unfinished GB's?

I'll assume that in your eagerness to make veiled jabs, you passed over the following:

As a mod team, we have been allowing two group buys per person, unless they are someone who has/had an established successful history running group buys.

You're welcome 

no, he read it. the question is still valid.

at what point do we start being concerned about numerous group buys that aren't finished and yet more pop up?

i know going against bunnylake/ctrl group is a death wish on here, but it's ridiculous.

[inanis]

So what about people with 3+ unfinished GB's?

I'll assume that in your eagerness to make veiled jabs, you passed over the following:

As a mod team, we have been allowing two group buys per person, unless they are someone who has/had an established successful history running group buys.

You're welcome 

no, he read it. the question is still valid.

at what point do we start being concerned about numerous group buys that aren't finished and yet more pop up?

i know going against bunnylake/ctrl group is a death wish on here, but it's ridiculous.

Yeah, the people who get their stuff are real quick to forget about those that are kept waiting. God forbid we talk about that tho.

[riotonthebay]

Maybe at the point that the organizers stop communicating and no progress is being made? Until then, your repeated attacks really do just read as ****posting. It's not a death wish to say that things haven't all gone well, but there's a reason that ctrlalt has built up so much goodwill, regardless of whether you acknowledge it.

[byker]

Ctrl Alt has been allowed to continue new group buys as they have shown the mod team progress on working towards completing their old group buys. 

[demik]

you should PM this guy the progress

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51026.msg2110631#msg2110631

or better yet..

'we are friends with bunny, so it's okay if he takes his time"

[nubbinator]

you should PM this guy the progress

https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51026.msg2110631#msg2110631

or better yet..

'we are friends with bunny, so it's okay if he takes his time"

I know there are some people still waiting on Raindrop as well.

[livingspeedbump]

Maybe at the point that the organizers stop communicating and no progress is being made? Until then, your repeated attacks really do just read as ****posting. It's not a death wish to say that things haven't all gone well, but there's a reason that ctrlalt has built up so much goodwill, regardless of whether you acknowledge it.

Penumbra, Toxic, Raindrop, Hyperfuse, Sophmore, all still open, some 2 years old. I hardly thing its **** posting to think it would be harsh to require any vendor/artisan/leader to finish up buys to 100% at some point before starting new buys.

[BunnyLake]

the reason we can continue to run things is because the mods took the time to find out what actually happened, rather than to just form an opinion based on limited information and pass it off as fact

we have a proven record of completing things, over 20 gbs (including ctrl alt and personal buys) and over 25 bro sales (ctrl alt and private sales), ive raised thousands for gh and done countless things for community members

we have 3 technically active buys (hyperfuse, jtk debut and sophomore) of the active buys, we have about 70 sets of hyperfuse to ship, cody has a gher coming round this weekend to finish it up with him) for debut we are just shipping missing keys and the sliders are arriving with sophomore, and sophomore is in production

for the problem buys ( penumbra, toxic and raindrop) we did everything in our power for those buys, another forum member ran off with a large percentage of the set and the shipping money, i have personally paid for the majority of what was shipped on those buys, we have also replaced and sorted everything now missing on penumbra, confirmed addresses and been putting together packages, cody will be shipping the last few on his next ship day, after that we will complete raindrop, then toxic

for those buys, everyone now involved in any way with ctrl alt did everything they were supposed to, someone bailing isnt something we had any control over, yet we are here, making things right and not running away

i guess what you are trying to say is that i shouldnt just be responsible for other forum members actions, i should be punished for them, as im certainly treated as if they were my own

the amount of total orders negatively affected across all our buys is sub 1%, and whilst any percent isnt good, its certainly not as bad as people make out, obviously the people with outstanding stuff or bad experience talk the loudest, and that is to be expected, but the reason people support us is because the 99% have a great experience time and time again

for the people that havent, we remain in constant communication and are constantly trying to make things better

in the last 3-6 weeks, we have added a fully functioning support system



there we have already dealt with 211 queries, ranging from order cancellations, address changes, missing keys, outstanding orders and refunds etc

we have 81 more tickets open, every single one has had a reply, about 50% more of those will be solved in the next few days once cody is feeling better and shipping again, and the rest are waiting on missing keys or things that need to be ordered

we have also launched a proper newsletter system to help keep people updated as well as continuing shipping standard orders and fulfilling other obligations

we launched a slack channel so that users can receive live support and have also been on hand there to solve any issues people may have

whilst all the cool kids think its fun to target me and ctrl alt, we are busting our asses off to make things right, and stepping up to solve problems other people caused

we havent run away and arent going to

[demik]

technically, your "problem buys" are still open buys.

and what you do for geekhack is irrelevant to the discussion, so i don't understand why you're bringing it up. GHers already think you're a "top legend m8" there is no need to remind everybody.

i'm not disputing you don't deliver (eventually) what im saying is that it would be nice for stuff to get finished before more buys are opened up because all that will create is even more stuff being put on the back burner.

i don't get why that's so much to ask for. it would give cody (who seems to be doing a large part of the shipping/sorting since it seems most orders are US based) a break also.

[BunnyLake]

technically, your "problem buys" are still open buys.

and what you do for geekhack is irrelevant to the discussion, so i don't understand why you're bringing it up. GHers already think you're a "top legend m8" there is no need to remind everybody.

i'm not disputing you don't deliver (eventually) what im saying is that it would be nice for stuff to get finished before more buys are opened up because all that will create is even more stuff being put on the back burner.

nobody thinks im "top legend m8"

and donations from things like bro sales and other gbs only speed up fixing the problem 3 gbs, as really it comes down to money, the money people paid was given to the manufacturer, the manufacturer sent the goods to someone, they disappeared with a portion of them as well as shipping money, these need to be funded to be replaced

i have been adding personal funding in as and when i can, but the majority of donations to ctrl alt also go in to fixing these things

[demik]

bro, let's not fool ourselves. this site loves you. anything negative against you and you have people jumping up defending you. you give them free caps and run GBs they want. you can deny it all you want but it happens. im not blaming you for it, maybe you are a nice guy to them i dont know.

i dont know why you're bringing up donations? im not accusing you of taking people's money. my only problem with this whole thing (in general, not against your little group) is that stuff doesn't get finished and other stuff pops up.

so i ask again, is it really that much to ask for? for stuff to get done before you take on another large task? lets be honest, none of your group buys are ever small. im sure you'd like a break yourself.

[BunnyLake]

bro, let's not fool ourselves. this site loves you. anything negative against you and you have people jumping up defending you. you give them free caps and run GBs they want. you can deny it all you want but it happens. im not blaming you for it, maybe you are a nice guy to them i dont know.

i dont know why you're bringing up donations? im not accusing you if taking people's money. my only problem with this whole thing (in general, not against your little group) is that stuff doesn't get finished and other stuff pops up.

so i ask again, is it really that much to ask for? for stuff to get done before you take on another large task? lets be honest, none of your group buys are ever small. im sure you'd like a break yourself.

Sorry I guess I didn't get across my point well

I brought up donations to say the reason we continue to do more gbs and bro sales is because it speeds up action on the 3 problem buys because I can use donations from those buys to fund replacing sets and shipping of them

I assure you there is nothing id like more than to take a break, but until every single order is made right, I'll keep working my ass off to make it happen

[demik]

gotcha, that makes more sense. i dont fully agree with it, because again, it's just work piled on top of work and while you're trying to fix it little by little it'll only be a cluster**** again. or maybe not. im sure you don't give a **** about my opinion but i figured i'd give my 2 cents (in a somewhat civil manner for once) on why a couple of us feel the way we do.

[BunnyLake]

gotcha, that makes more sense. i dont fully agree with it, because again, it's just work piled on top of work and while you're trying to fix it little by little it'll only be a cluster**** again. or maybe not. im sure you don't give a **** about my opinion but i figured i'd give my 2 cents (in a somewhat civil manner for once) on why a couple of us feel the way we do.

And it's that civil manner that I appreciate and why I'm here replying

I do appreciate the opinion, and for what it's worth I don't entirely disagree, but I've been left in a really ****ty situation and I'm just doing everything I can to solve it

There are a ton of misconception about me and Ctrl alt, both good and bad ones, but I'm doing my best

[livingspeedbump]

You say you technically have 3 open, but technically you have just stated you have 6 buys open, because there are people still waiting on products from 6 buys.

"ive raised thousands for gh and done countless things for community members" Congratulations. Not super sure how/why that is relevant at all here?

At the very end of the day the responsibility falls on the leader or whoever took the money. Be it a service to the community or whatever, when money passes hands there is an inherent responsibility there. It's not
like those people that run off were forced to be part of the GB leadership, they were chosen. Choosing people wisely when running a GB is important. So while it's nice that you guys aren't running like others have at times, you aren't the victim either. Nobody forces you to run the buys, nobody to forces you to work with the people you choose to work or deal with, and the fact that you have the money means you have an obligation to those people, be it for profit or not.

[demik]

gotcha, that makes more sense. i dont fully agree with it, because again, it's just work piled on top of work and while you're trying to fix it little by little it'll only be a cluster**** again. or maybe not. im sure you don't give a **** about my opinion but i figured i'd give my 2 cents (in a somewhat civil manner for once) on why a couple of us feel the way we do.

And it's that civil manner that I appreciate and why I'm here replying

I do appreciate the opinion, and for what it's worth I don't entirely disagree, but I've been left in a really ****ty situation and I'm just doing everything I can to solve it

There are a ton of misconception about me and Ctrl alt, both good and bad ones, but I'm doing my best

i haven't really followed your buys since the people that had a problem with you either got refunded, stop bothering with it or eventually got their order. but i remember you telling half truths on when stuff was going to get done. and while im sure you're under constant pressure from all this **** your CS was a somewhat rude ( i know i know, of all the people to complain about being rude i should be the last one.. but im not running GBs). personally i'd stop being so specific with stuff. not saying to be vague but unless something is certainly going to happen on a specific day i wouldn't even say it. IIRC, inanis had 2 sets that were suppose to be shipped together and weren't. she had no mention of it until SHE had to bring it up. then you told her what was what.

same with phoenix in the hyperfuse buy. but that's just me being outside looking in. i've ran GBs and i know they're a *****. and mine weren't even nearly as big as what you're running or really what any of these buys are anymore. that's why i think stuff should be limited so it can be better organized and ran faster/easier.

[BunnyLake]

gotcha, that makes more sense. i dont fully agree with it, because again, it's just work piled on top of work and while you're trying to fix it little by little it'll only be a cluster**** again. or maybe not. im sure you don't give a **** about my opinion but i figured i'd give my 2 cents (in a somewhat civil manner for once) on why a couple of us feel the way we do.

And it's that civil manner that I appreciate and why I'm here replying

I do appreciate the opinion, and for what it's worth I don't entirely disagree, but I've been left in a really ****ty situation and I'm just doing everything I can to solve it

There are a ton of misconception about me and Ctrl alt, both good and bad ones, but I'm doing my best

i haven't really followed your buys since the people that had a problem with you either got refunded, stop bothering with it or eventually got their order. but i remember you telling half truths on when stuff was going to get done. and while im sure you're under constant pressure from all this **** your CS was a somewhat rude ( i know i know, of all the people to complain about being rude i should be the last one.. but im not running GBs). personally i'd stop being so specific with stuff. not saying to be vague but unless something is certainly going to happen on a specific day i wouldn't even say it. IIRC, inanis had 2 sets that were suppose to be shipped together and weren't. she had no mention of it until SHE had to bring it up. then you told her what was what.

same with phoenix in the hyperfuse buy. but that's just me being outside looking in. i've ran GBs and i know they're a *****. and mine weren't even nearly as big as what you're running or really what any of these buys are anymore. that's why i think stuff should be limited so it can be better organized and ran faster/easier.

again i agree with you when it comes to updates, only defence i have is, i dont own ctrl alt, i dont run ctrl alt, im not ctrl alt, we are a small group of people working on it together, and if i posted an update, specifically a timeline or date, thats because that is a date or timeline i was given, not one i just pulled out of thin air

with inanis, she was indeed meant to have both sets sent together, that didnt end up happening, one set was sent on its own, she didnt want to wait for the second set to arrive, and she was refunded as soon as was asked on the second

there is no story with pheonix, he wanted a refund if his order wasnt delivered by a certain date, and i agreed and gave him one

[flabbergast]

Finally, I believe that geekhack has and should have no responsibility in how group buys are conducted. This is the responsibility of the participant. Each and every person going in on a group buy should understand that there is a chance that nothing comes to fruition, either at the fault of the organizer or for other reasons. If this is not an acceptable possibility to someone, they should not participate.

I agree with this.

Also I think that this, and the PSA, should be posted in every group buy, as the second post. You guys say "people should be responsible and read up ..." but in my experience within every group of even relatively smart people (e.g. uni students) there are *always* people who don't read almost anything, assume a lot of stuff, and make entitled demands.

[ghostjuggernaut]

Please keep further discussion on topic and constructive. Further personal attacks will result in moderator action.

There is a lot of good discussion going on here, from all sides. Please don't allow personal issues to cloud judgement when posting.

[digi]

Please keep further discussion on topic and constructive. Further personal attacks will result in moderator action.

There is a lot of good discussion going on here, from all sides. Please don't allow personal issues to cloud judgement when posting.

Ghost works for Ctrl Alt too??

[ghostjuggernaut]

Please keep further discussion on topic and constructive. Further personal attacks will result in moderator action.

There is a lot of good discussion going on here, from all sides. Please don't allow personal issues to cloud judgement when posting.

Ghost works for Ctrl Alt too??

Digi, please chill out. You made a dig directly at another member. He made one at you. I removed both posts. I removed no other discussion in here, since they have been constructive.

We aren't here to listen to everyone's personal issues with other members. We're here because we share the same hobby and enjoy the community. If anyone thinks my actions are uncalled for, please let me know. I'm a new to moderation and still don't know many of the users. But I welcome any feedback, good or bad.

[digi]

Please keep further discussion on topic and constructive. Further personal attacks will result in moderator action.

There is a lot of good discussion going on here, from all sides. Please don't allow personal issues to cloud judgement when posting.

Ghost works for Ctrl Alt too??

Digi, please chill out. You made a dig directly at another member. He made one at you. I removed both posts. I removed no other discussion in here, since they have been constructive.

We aren't here to listen to everyone's personal issues with other members. We're here because we share the same hobby and enjoy the community. If anyone thinks my actions are uncalled for, please let me know. I'm a new to moderation and still don't know many of the users. But I welcome any feedback, good or bad.

I don't care Ghost, we're still buds.

[demik]

DONT DO IT DIGI. MODS ARE THE TRUE ENEMY.

[digi]

DONT DO IT DIGI. MODS ARE THE TRUE ENEMY.

EAT **** GHOST!!