Microsoft Surface the only tablet that is a reasonable laptop replacement?

[vivalarevolución]

I pose this question because I may have just decided that I don't even want to mess around with laptop keyboards anymore.  Like I don't even want a convertible where you can fold the keyboard out of the way, I just want the lackluster laptop keyboards and touchpads gone completely. Then I can use whatever keyboard and mouse that I please.  Problem with that idea is nearly all keyboardless tablets lack adequate ports and multitasking power.  This is all I can find that might serve as a laptop replacement with at least a few useful ports and decent power:

Microsoft Surface Pro 4
Acer Switch Alpha 12 (yes, I know there is a keyboard, but I can just leave that in the box)
Something like Dell XPS 12 and HP Spectre x2 (but I'm not sold on the M-core processors)

Is this all that is out there for a keyboard enthusiast that just wants to throw the whole laptop keyboard out the window but still wants the typical laptop power and functionality?

[xondat]

Title: no

Is it the best: yes

[Findecanor]

Tablets suck. None has enough ports without an external USB hub.

I was almost going to recommend also checking out the Lenovo MIIX 510, but without proper amount of ports it sucks too.

[vivalarevolución]

Tablets suck. None has enough ports without an external USB hub.

I was almost going to recommend also checking out the Lenovo MIIX 510, but without proper amount of ports it sucks too.

That pretty much seems to be the story.  When you start adding a few hubs or adapters, things start to get messy.

[vivalarevolución]

Anyone else?

[Spopepro]

You could run one of the detachable, and just always have the keyboard detached. But honestly no one comes close to Microsoft in terms of the hardware they offer here.

[Fictiouz]

I pose this question because I may have just decided that I don't even want to mess around with laptop keyboards anymore.  Like I don't even want a convertible where you can fold the keyboard out of the way, I just want the lackluster laptop keyboards and touchpads gone completely. Then I can use whatever keyboard and mouse that I please.  Problem with that idea is nearly all keyboardless tablets lack adequate ports and multitasking power.  This is all I can find that might serve as a laptop replacement with at least a few useful ports and decent power:

Microsoft Surface Pro 4
Acer Switch Alpha 12 (yes, I know there is a keyboard, but I can just leave that in the box)
Something like Dell XPS 12 and HP Spectre x2 (but I'm not sold on the M-core processors)

Is this all that is out there for a keyboard enthusiast that just wants to throw the whole laptop keyboard out the window but still wants the typical laptop power and functionality?

The Surface line-up should never be considered a tablet.. except for that horrible RT one they released at the very beginning. They are full fledged laptops and very competent ones at that.

[chuckdee]

Anyone else?

Title: no

Is it the best: yes

I think you can shut it down after that.

When I was considering a Surface, I looked at other options.  Samsung TabPro S was what I was looking at, though the Acer was pretty good too.

I ended up with a Surface because my largest point was battery life.  Got a SP4 i5/4GB/128GB off e-bay, new for $635.  Haven't regretted it.

[vivalarevolución]

Well then, boys, thanks a lot!  Now who wants to donate to my Microsoft Surface fund?

[Leslieann]

They are nice, powerful, and well made, but the rest is a great big no thank you.

They make terrible tablets (heavy), and even worse laptops, but most of all, you can't repair or upgrade them at all. If you do get one, get the absolute best damn warranty you can afford. Even experts cannot get it open without breaking the screen.

On top of that, there is MS policies. I know a bunch of people with Surface RT's who were planning on making Linux tablets from them. Just before ending support, MS released a patch blocking Linux. That's on top of the fact that they bricked a ton of them with the 8.1 update. I don't trust MS software and I sure as heck don't want a machine where they control every aspect of it,. especially knowing how badly they can screw it up.

[chuckdee]

They make terrible tablets (heavy), and even worse laptops

As someone who owns one, I'd disagree with both statements.

[Leslieann]

They make terrible tablets (heavy), and even worse laptops

As someone who owns one, I'd disagree with both statements.

Actually, I just looked it up, they are lighter than they feel (Macbook Airs are similar in that way).

As for being a bad laptop... The flexible keyboard isn't stable, and while I can't speak for later models, early models had lots of problems with it coming undocked or not connecting while typing. It really only works when you have a hard surface to put it on. Personally, I just find it very awkward to use.

[chuckdee]

They make terrible tablets (heavy), and even worse laptops

As someone who owns one, I'd disagree with both statements.

Actually, I just looked it up, they are lighter than they feel (Macbook Airs are similar in that way).

As for being a bad laptop... The flexible keyboard isn't stable, and while I can't speak for later models, early models had lots of problems with it coming undocked or not connecting while typing. It really only works when you have a hard surface to put it on. Personally, I just find it very awkward to use.

And that's fine.   But to say it unilaterally... 

* chuckdee shrugs.

I personally haven't used the type cover,  so I stay away from those comparisons. I use my Bluetooth jd45 or my Logitech keystogo. And I use it more than my xps 13 that I no longer take anywhere.  So,  while anecdotal evidence,  it's at least from experience.

[Leslieann]

I've only very limited experience on them without the type cover, my customers all use them that way and it just comes off as clumsy in either mode.

How you use it is personal, and if someone wants that form factor go for it, my concern was and still is the serviceability. I get asked to repair a lot of laptops and frankly, those scare the heck out of me. Them and Ipads, I'll rip apart a brand new $2000 Lenovo but I won't touch either of those ever again.

[six_chains]

I'm waiting for the Surface Pro 5, rumors are Q1-Q2 2017.


There's also the Wacom Studio Pro? That just came out. But you're paying a big premium for the pen tech, which is second to none in the market. I'm a working graphic artist, so it was tempting for me, but I'll wait to see what the SP5 has.

[vivalarevolución]

They are nice, powerful, and well made, but the rest is a great big no thank you.

They make terrible tablets (heavy), and even worse laptops, but most of all, you can't repair or upgrade them at all. If you do get one, get the absolute best damn warranty you can afford. Even experts cannot get it open without breaking the screen.

On top of that, there is MS policies. I know a bunch of people with Surface RT's who were planning on making Linux tablets from them. Just before ending support, MS released a patch blocking Linux. That's on top of the fact that they bricked a ton of them with the 8.1 update. I don't trust MS software and I sure as heck don't want a machine where they control every aspect of it,. especially knowing how badly they can screw it up.

Please, you're killing my thunder.  I knew about the hardware limitations, but was unaware of the software limitations.  I'm not too concerned about the hardware issues, but those software issues leave me wary.

[chuckdee]

They are nice, powerful, and well made, but the rest is a great big no thank you.

They make terrible tablets (heavy), and even worse laptops, but most of all, you can't repair or upgrade them at all. If you do get one, get the absolute best damn warranty you can afford. Even experts cannot get it open without breaking the screen.

On top of that, there is MS policies. I know a bunch of people with Surface RT's who were planning on making Linux tablets from them. Just before ending support, MS released a patch blocking Linux. That's on top of the fact that they bricked a ton of them with the 8.1 update. I don't trust MS software and I sure as heck don't want a machine where they control every aspect of it,. especially knowing how badly they can screw it up.

Please, you're killing my thunder.  I knew about the hardware limitations, but was unaware of the software limitations.  I'm not too concerned about the hardware issues, but those software issues leave me wary.

It seems more like MS prejudice than software limitations, at least any that are inherent to the platform.  Yes, with Windows 10 they have the abhorrent update policy that all windows 10 devices have.  And they didn't disable it as much as enable secure boot.  There are ways around that, if you want to install Linux.  (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2997244/laptop-computers/11-secrets-you-didnt-know-about-your-new-surface-book-or-surface-pro-4.html or https://github.com/jimdigriz/debian-mssp4) 

[jacobolus]

If you care about writing/drawing, I like the Apple stylus a lot better than the Microsoft ones. But depending on what you need to do, an Apple tablet might not match your other criteria.

I think trying to effectively use desktop software on a tablet is a bit of a pipe dream. There’s just too big a gap between the assumptions software creators are working from. The result is that both multitouch/drawing apps and mouse/keyboard desktop apps end up working in a weird half-assed way (or not-working, as the case may be).

In general I’ve also found Windows/Linux software to have lots of weird glitches when trying to use it on high-resolution displays. I think it’ll still take a few more years for them to work out all the kinks – not just Microsoft, but all the third-party software producers. (Disclaimer: I haven’t tried too seriously to use Windows in years; this is just a scattered brief impression from a few days on it here and there.)

* * *

To make an informed decision I think you need to decide what tasks you need to complete on your computer, what software you are used to, what software you need to work with, what you’re willing to compromise on, etc., and then just try something out for a few weeks to see if it does what you need.

[Leslieann]

It seems more like MS prejudice than software limitations, at least any that are inherent to the platform.  Yes, with Windows 10 they have the abhorrent update policy that all windows 10 devices have.  And they didn't disable it as much as enable secure boot.  There are ways around that, if you want to install Linux.  (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2997244/laptop-computers/11-secrets-you-didnt-know-about-your-new-surface-book-or-surface-pro-4.html or https://github.com/jimdigriz/debian-mssp4)

Pros can be converted to Linux, RT models cannot , if there's a way around it, I haven't heard of one, but I admit I haven't been looking. However, my point isn't what you can or can't do on a pro, it's that they've left owners out in the cold more than once and that you shouldn't let one company control every aspect of your computing (this applies to Apple as well).

As for being prejudice, frankly, I don't care what OS a person uses, it's a platform and it can often be dictated by what you do with the computer.

[vivalarevolución]

It seems more like MS prejudice than software limitations, at least any that are inherent to the platform.  Yes, with Windows 10 they have the abhorrent update policy that all windows 10 devices have.  And they didn't disable it as much as enable secure boot.  There are ways around that, if you want to install Linux.  (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2997244/laptop-computers/11-secrets-you-didnt-know-about-your-new-surface-book-or-surface-pro-4.html or https://github.com/jimdigriz/debian-mssp4)

Okay, thank you, sir!  I am prejudice against Microsoft and I know there is a whole community of Surface Pro Linux users out there to help out.  So I will check my bias.

If you care about writing/drawing, I like the Apple stylus a lot better than the Microsoft ones. But depending on what you need to do, an Apple tablet might not match your other criteria.

I think trying to effectively use desktop software on a tablet is a bit of a pipe dream. There’s just too big a gap between the assumptions software creators are working from. The result is that both multitouch/drawing apps and mouse/keyboard desktop apps end up working in a weird half-assed way (or not-working, as the case may be).

In general I’ve also found Windows/Linux software to have lots of weird glitches when trying to use it on high-resolution displays. I think it’ll still take a few more years for them to work out all the kinks – not just Microsoft, but all the third-party software producers. (Disclaimer: I haven’t tried too seriously to use Windows in years; this is just a scattered brief impression from a few days on it here and there.)

* * *

To make an informed decision I think you need to decide what tasks you need to complete on your computer, what software you are used to, what software you need to work with, what you’re willing to compromise on, etc., and then just try something out for a few weeks to see if it does what you need.

Nothing special, just looking for a top quality tablet with decent laptop power and adequate ports because I just want the laptop keyboard out of the way.  It would be nice if it doesn't choke up when I only have a dozen Internet tabs open (like what happens with my Chromebook).  I am not looking for a desktop replacement.  Obviously, I could find a cheaper and more user-friendly option than the MS Surface Pro, but it seems to check the most boxes for me.

Yea, I've heard about the high resolution display issues on Linux/Windows and experienced them when I tried to use Linux/Windows on my former Macbook Pro Retina.  Which is why I stick with 1080p on my desktop and current laptop.  I guess that would make it illogical for me to buy a Microsoft Surface, so I probably should head up to the Microsoft store in town to test it out.

I do agree that desktop software on a tablet is a bit of a pipe dream, because whenever the OS companies attempt to create this integrated desktop/tablet/phone OS, the desktop experience seems to suffer the most.  On the opposite end, my Chromebook with a touchscreen has a lackluster touch experience and quality laptop OS experience.  But I'm not looking for a desktop replacement, simply a tablet with laptop power to do average computing tasks and enough ports to accommodate a pheriperal or two.

[menuhin]

MS Surface Pro 4 + HHKB Pro 2 Bluetooth keyboard: problem solved
MS Surface Pro 4 + HHKB Pro 2 + Hasu BT adapter: problem solved (need charging every 12 hours)
MS Surface Pro 4 + HHKB Pro 2 + mini-USB cable: problem solved - 1 USB socket availability

[vivalarevolución]

MS Surface Pro 4 + HHKB Pro 2 Bluetooth keyboard: problem solved
MS Surface Pro 4 + HHKB Pro 2 + Hasu BT adapter: problem solved (need charging every 12 hours)
MS Surface Pro 4 + HHKB Pro 2 + mini-USB cable: problem solved - 1 USB socket availability

Haha!  Except I don't like the HHKB Pro 2.

[chuckdee]

It seems more like MS prejudice than software limitations, at least any that are inherent to the platform.  Yes, with Windows 10 they have the abhorrent update policy that all windows 10 devices have.  And they didn't disable it as much as enable secure boot.  There are ways around that, if you want to install Linux.  (http://www.pcworld.com/article/2997244/laptop-computers/11-secrets-you-didnt-know-about-your-new-surface-book-or-surface-pro-4.html or https://github.com/jimdigriz/debian-mssp4)

Pros can be converted to Linux, RT models cannot , if there's a way around it, I haven't heard of one, but I admit I haven't been looking. However, my point isn't what you can or can't do on a pro, it's that they've left owners out in the cold more than once and that you shouldn't let one company control every aspect of your computing (this applies to Apple as well).

As for being prejudice, frankly, I don't care what OS a person uses, it's a platform and it can often be dictated by what you do with the computer.

RT isn't even retail available anymore, which is why I spoke to the SP4.  RT model was not a success- heck RT was not a success- which is why RT is gone like yesterday.

MS Surface Pro 4 + HHKB Pro 2 Bluetooth keyboard: problem solved
MS Surface Pro 4 + HHKB Pro 2 + Hasu BT adapter: problem solved (need charging every 12 hours)
MS Surface Pro 4 + HHKB Pro 2 + mini-USB cable: problem solved - 1 USB socket availability

Haha!  Except I don't like the HHKB Pro 2.

Let me add JD45 + Adafruit BT

A couple of articles on linux users on SP3 that I had in my bookmarks:

http://jucato.logbert.org/blog/a-year-with-the-ms-surface-pro-3-running-linux
http://redmonk.com/gearmonk/2014/10/29/a-linux-guy-tries-a-surface-pro-3-you-wont-believe-what-happens-next/

[Leslieann]

RT isn't even retail available anymore, which is why I spoke to the SP4.  RT model was not a success- heck RT was not a success- which is why RT is gone like yesterday.

I know.
I brought up the RT as an example of why you shouldn't let one company have total control over your computer.

[vivalarevolución]

RT isn't even retail available anymore, which is why I spoke to the SP4.  RT model was not a success- heck RT was not a success- which is why RT is gone like yesterday.

I know.
I brought up the RT as an example of why you shouldn't let one company have total control over your computer.

But the hardware-software integration!  It's so nice! (At least with a Mac)

[chuckdee]

RT isn't even retail available anymore, which is why I spoke to the SP4.  RT model was not a success- heck RT was not a success- which is why RT is gone like yesterday.

I know.
I brought up the RT as an example of why you shouldn't let one company have total control over your computer.

Seems a straw man to me.  Especially as even with RT,  they don't have *complete* control over your computer. You had more control with Windows 8 RT over your updating schedule than you do with Windows 10 as a matter of fact.

[vivalarevolución]

Been thinking quite a bit about these types of devices, and probably going to opt for one of those 2-in-1 convertibles with keyboards that fold behind the screen rather than completely detach.  They offer so much more value for the price, compared to the options for Microsoft Surface-type tablet devices.  I can still get the keyboard out of the way, with the only sacrifice being size and weight.

[chuckdee]

Been thinking quite a bit about these types of devices, and probably going to opt for one of those 2-in-1 convertibles with keyboards that fold behind the screen rather than completely detach.  They offer so much more value for the price, compared to the options for Microsoft Surface-type tablet devices.  I can still get the keyboard out of the way, with the only sacrifice being size and weight.

I've had a few of those- before I got my Dell XPS, I had the Dell Inspiron 13.  I gave that to my daughter, and went for a the XPS 13 after only a bit.  It was a nice piece of kit, but I found I never used it in tablet mode because it was so heavy with the keyboard on it, and quite unwieldy.  She never uses it in tablet mode.  That keyboard in the 2-in-1s is easy to forget about in the handling part because it looks so smooth to fold back.  But in practice, it just wasn't for me.  That's what set me on the road that ended with the Surface (Inspiron -> XPS 13 -> Surface in about 18 months).

It works for some people, so hopefully it's what you're looking for.  Just wanted to give my experience.

[Leslieann]

RT isn't even retail available anymore, which is why I spoke to the SP4.  RT model was not a success- heck RT was not a success- which is why RT is gone like yesterday.

I know.
I brought up the RT as an example of why you shouldn't let one company have total control over your computer.

But the hardware-software integration!  It's so nice! (At least with a Mac)

Yeah?
How well does that shiny new Iphone work with your shiny new Macbook... You need an dongle.

In a way, yes I agree, it (usually) does make for good functionality, at least at first.  The problem is, when software makers have that ability, they tend to do things that other companies cannot, and when they decide to take a new direction, they don't give a a damn about it any more, and since often these things are written into the OS, there's no way to backport drivers and software necessary to keep that hardware functional. Had the new Macbook Pro been a Lenovo or HP or Asus, it probably would have had 2 normal USB3 as well as 2 USB C, but because Apple, just like MS, controls their ecosystem, they tend to force you to bend the direction THEY want you to go. This includes planned obsolescence, you'll upgrade how and when they want you to.

I won't even get into the fact that it's an ethical issue when MS competing against their own vendors.

[vivalarevolución]

Been thinking quite a bit about these types of devices, and probably going to opt for one of those 2-in-1 convertibles with keyboards that fold behind the screen rather than completely detach.  They offer so much more value for the price, compared to the options for Microsoft Surface-type tablet devices.  I can still get the keyboard out of the way, with the only sacrifice being size and weight.

I've had a few of those- before I got my Dell XPS, I had the Dell Inspiron 13.  I gave that to my daughter, and went for a the XPS 13 after only a bit.  It was a nice piece of kit, but I found I never used it in tablet mode because it was so heavy with the keyboard on it, and quite unwieldy.  She never uses it in tablet mode.  That keyboard in the 2-in-1s is easy to forget about in the handling part because it looks so smooth to fold back.  But in practice, it just wasn't for me.  That's what set me on the road that ended with the Surface (Inspiron -> XPS 13 -> Surface in about 18 months).

It works for some people, so hopefully it's what you're looking for.  Just wanted to give my experience.

Thanks for sharing for your experiences.  I've messed around some Lenovo Yogas and generally don't mind the extra bulkiness and potential unwieldyness.  I like what I have tried so far and would entertain the idea of owning a 2-in-1 type thing (although not particularly a Lenovo Yoga).  I use a laptop mostly with a mechanical keyboard, and the laptop keyboard is in the way and pushes the screen too far away from me.  Then there are other times I would just like the tablet to watch videos or do some light browsing.  And other times such as on the couch or out in public places that having the attached keyboard would be convenient.  I suppose that I could buy one of each, but I don't want to spend the money and don't like having too many devices.  I'm a picky customer.

I probably just need run over to Bestbuy and play around with a few devices to see how they feel (despite how much I hate retail stores).  Now I just need someone to buy my Dell Chromebook 13 that I put on Ebay.   

[vivalarevolución]

RT isn't even retail available anymore, which is why I spoke to the SP4.  RT model was not a success- heck RT was not a success- which is why RT is gone like yesterday.

I know.
I brought up the RT as an example of why you shouldn't let one company have total control over your computer.

But the hardware-software integration!  It's so nice! (At least with a Mac)

Yeah?
How well does that shiny new Iphone work with your shiny new Macbook... You need an dongle.

In a way, yes I agree, it (usually) does make for good functionality, at least at first.  The problem is, when software makers have that ability, they tend to do things that other companies cannot, and when they decide to take a new direction, they don't give a a damn about it any more, and since often these things are written into the OS, there's no way to backport drivers and software necessary to keep that hardware functional. Had the new Macbook Pro been a Lenovo or HP or Asus, it probably would have had 2 normal USB3 as well as 2 USB C, but because Apple, just like MS, controls their ecosystem, they tend to force you to bend the direction THEY want you to go. This includes planned obsolescence, you'll upgrade how and when they want you to.

I won't even get into the fact that it's an ethical issue when MS competing against their own vendors.

Sorry, I was being sarcastic and did not point that out.

I mostly agree with you, and many of the points you made were part of the reason I decided to offload my remaining Apple devices and travel down the road of Linux.  Apple started making some changes that rubbed me the wrong way, so I decided to exit the ecosystem for good.  Many of their recent changes only serve to support my decision (adapter dongles, anyone?).

[kurplop]

I've messed around some Lenovo Yogas and generally don't mind the extra bulkiness and potential unwieldyness.  I like what I have tried so far and would entertain the idea of owning a 2-in-1 type thing (although not particularly a Lenevo Yoga).  I use a laptop mostly with a mechanical keyboard, and the laptop keyboard is in the way and pushes the screen too far away from me.  Then there are other times I would just like the tablet to watch videos or do some light browsing.  And other times such as on the couch or out in public places that having the attached keyboard would be convenient.  I suppose that I could buy one of each, but I don't want to spend the money and don't like having too many devices.  I'm a picky customer.

I probably just need run over to Bestbuy and play around with a few devices to see how they feel (despite how much I hate retail stores).  Now I just need someone to buy my Dell Chromebook 13 that I put on Ebay.   

I've been using a Thinkpad Yoga for close to two years pretty much the way you described and have been quite happy with it. I rarely use it in tablet mode, but use it in the standard laptop mode for casual use and folded back when using a separate keyboard . When folded back, the built-in keyboard makes a very stable base for the screen and gets it out of the way. Bulkiness has its pluses too; I suspect it could take a lot more abuse than a tablet.

[vivalarevolución]

I've messed around some Lenovo Yogas and generally don't mind the extra bulkiness and potential unwieldyness.  I like what I have tried so far and would entertain the idea of owning a 2-in-1 type thing (although not particularly a Lenevo Yoga).  I use a laptop mostly with a mechanical keyboard, and the laptop keyboard is in the way and pushes the screen too far away from me.  Then there are other times I would just like the tablet to watch videos or do some light browsing.  And other times such as on the couch or out in public places that having the attached keyboard would be convenient.  I suppose that I could buy one of each, but I don't want to spend the money and don't like having too many devices.  I'm a picky customer.

I probably just need run over to Bestbuy and play around with a few devices to see how they feel (despite how much I hate retail stores).  Now I just need someone to buy my Dell Chromebook 13 that I put on Ebay.   

I've been using a Thinkpad Yoga for close to two years pretty much the way you described and have been quite happy with it. I rarely use it in tablet mode, but use it in the standard laptop mode for casual use and folded back when using a separate keyboard . When folded back, the built-in keyboard makes a very stable base for the screen and gets it out of the way. Bulkiness has its pluses too; I suspect it could take a lot more abuse than a tablet.

Thanks.  I've been looking at the Thinkpad Yogas, as I am a fan of the Thinkpad line, for various reasons (despite the issues with backdoors).  Lenovo Outlet has some seriously great deals on Thinkpad.

[vivalarevolución]

So I went to Best Buy and was able to test out a number of 2-in-1s, including some with the latest with Intel's 7th generation Kaby Lake processors.  They had HP, Dell, Asus, Acer, Lenovo, Samsung, Apple, and Microsoft.  Like a kid in a candy store here.  Some initial impressions. 

-If you want a 2-in-1, 14" screens are about the limit of practicality, because the 15" laptops get to be too big and unwieldy.
-The Microsoft Surface Book is one of a kind.  The sheer quality combined with the ability to complete detach the screen part and still utilize different positions was unique when compared to everything that I tried.  Microsoft may have successfully emulated Apple's Reality Distortion Field.
-The newest HP Spectre x360 probably is up there with Apple for pure curb appeal.  Seriously, this thing looked very slick and felt more like an 11" laptop than its 13" size, and was not too bulky too hold in tablet mode.  My only complaint is the lack of at least a MicroSD card slot.

More

-HP laptops in general seemed to have the best keyboards of all the models that I tried.
-Dell Inspirons are a great budget model, and the latest ones with Kaby Lake have an updated design aesthetic that competes with anything else out there.
-Across the board, Dell is making some great laptops.
-HP Envy also is a decent budget model, but has more bulk compared to the Dell Inspirons.
-Lenovo Yogas are very visually attractive machines, but there are a couple major flaws:  the watchband hinge looks like a potentially faulty nightmare with too many points of failure (but what do I know, I'm not an engineer) and Lenovo has tried to reinvent the keyboard AGAIN by putting the shift key to the right of the arrow cluster.  It was AWFUL for typing.

More

-I would have liked to try the Thinkpad Yogas to compare their build and keyboard to Lenovo's consumer line, but they didn't have those on the floor.
-Acer and Asus just feel slightly cheaper when placed next to all the other brands, as expected.  How much that actually matters over the life of owning the laptop, I don't know.
-Other companies are catching up with Dell in the minimal display bezel game, namely HP and Lenovo.
-The Apple Macbook Air 11" might be the only 11" laptop ever to have a comfortably sized keyboard.  Shame that it's not available anymore.
-I didn't mind using Windows 10 in both desktop and tablet mode.  My only complaint is when compared to MacOS, ChromeOS, and many Linux distros, Windows 10 is less organized, too busy, and has too much going on.  As many have noted.

If I had to pick a couple winners, the Microsoft Surface Book and newest HP Spectre x360 left the biggest impression.  The market in laptops right now is truly impressive, I haven't seriously looked at a laptop in a few years now and these things are quite amazing.

[Leslieann]

I agree the market has really shifted the last 2 or 3 years. Trying to buy thin and light prior to ultrabooks was an exercise in drained wallets and few options, not so today.

The Surface Book and Lenovo watch band both seem like a big failure point, loose hinges are a pet peeve of mine. The Lenovo also looks like a pinch waiting to happen, it probably isn't but it sure looke like gears ready to nip fingers. HP keyboards are often quite good, and yes, they will feel better over time compared to cheaper ones which feel garbage from the start. Of that list, the Spectre would probably top my list, it's impressive. I've seen it (looks great), I just haven't really fondled one yet. It's an HP so it will probably adapt to OSX or Linux better, the keyboard will be good. The only question is build quality and touchpad, which are probably not as good as the Surface book, but again, I would trust HP more than MS and parts for the HP will be more readily available (and cheaper) while being far more serviceable than the Surface Book should something happen.


I have a Macbook Air 11   (2014, I7/8gb/256gb ssd)
While I really want to say now is a good time to get one, and it probably is the best time, Macs are rarely the best bang for the buck. The 4gig ram models are modestly priced, however the 8gb ram models carry a HEFTY premium and you don't want a 4Gb model even if you plan on running Mac as it will be outdated far sooner. The prices are CRAZY on 8gb models, you can get anything from a 2012-2015 for almost the same price (around $700), even drive size hardly matters, the ram is everything. When I got mine a few months ago, there was 10 8Gb models for sale compared to 300 4gb models. The only thing going for buyers today is that there isn't a huge demand for 8gb models... Which I don't get.

As for how it compares...
Construction is fantastic. I wouldn't say it's fantastic to type on though, it's very flat, and island keys are terrible if you have even a hint of fingernails. The screen is semi glossy, not great but not terrible, there is a company making a kit to make it matte, but it's not cheap and working on an Air is not for the weak of heart, particularly the screen, you literally cannot touch the parts with your fingers. The screen isn't a separate unit like other laptops, the metal lid houses the individual screen parts. Crazy.

The good.. it's thin, fast, quiet, and battery life is awesome with OSX. Magsafe!  I can get 9 hours battery while browsing in Firefox, longer with Safari.
The bad... It lacks ports, VERY difficult to repair, proprietary ssd connector, soldered ram, feels heavier than it actually is due to such solid construction. Windows battery life is average (5 hrs), and unless you know your way around with Linux, battery life will SUCK. I got about 3 hours tops when I first installed Linux, I have it around 6 hours now, which matches Windows after some tweaking (almost 6). They can also run VERY hot, the fan exhaust is behind the hinge, so it's sort of blocked and I7's aren't exactly known for running cool.

[chuckdee]

Thanks for posting that!  Looks like you took a really indepth view!

-The Microsoft Surface Book is one of a kind.  The sheer quality combined with the ability to complete detach the screen part and still utilize different positions was unique when compared to everything that I tried.  Microsoft may have successfully emulated Apple's Reality Distortion Field.

I was waffling between dropping the money on a Surface Book or a Surface.  I went with the surface because (a) I could try it out on the cheap, and (b) it's the 4th iteration, where the book is 1st iteration.  I think when I'm done with my XPS13 I might be willing to go there after my Surface experience.

About concerns about the hinge:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Surface/comments/3pnjos/for_those_of_you_who_are_worried_about_the/
http://www.theverge.com/2015/10/6/9464187/surface-book-hinge-gifs
http://www.anandtech.com/show/9767/microsoft-surface-book-2015-review/2

[vivalarevolución]

Thanks for the additional thoughts, guys.  Taking a visit to Best Buy really cleared up a lot for me, personally.

There was a time a few years ago when I was seriously considering the MacBook Air 11.  Nothing else seemed to pack in that much power and quality into such a small package. Get an i7 model, max out the RAM, and hook up an external monitor and USB hub, it could function as both a home machine and an ultra portable laptop.  Alas, I went with a MacBook Pro, and now I am completely Apple Free.  I think that I will stay that way.

Interesting articles about the Surface Book hinge.  Definitely a lot more going on under the hood than what meets the eye.  I am turned off by the difficulties of servicing these machines, and how more and more parts are soldered on. That's the trade off for everything going thin and light; they get more difficult to upgrade or fix.  The end user experience is great, though.

The Lenovo Yoga hinge does look beautiful.  But it seems like Rube Goldberg machine, just too much complexity to accomplish a simple task.

I would have loved to get my hands on Thinkpad Yoga, as I am a longtime fan of Thinkpads.  I love how pretty much everything can be quickly replaced by the user, and I can easily buy the parts online, if I ever need to do so.  Also, the keyboards are so much better to type on for longer periods than any other laptop I have tried, and of course the track point for the most discerning laptop users.

[YoshiCaps]

I just want to throw this out there, the pros and cons-

Pros:

Versitile

Built in kickstand

Touchscreen

Cons:

High price

Bad for gaming

inflated keyboard

Hope that helps.

[Leslieann]

Thanks for posting that!  Looks like you took a really indepth view!

Thanks, I think not being a Mac fan helps keep it a bit more subjective. I didn't want to buy it, I'm still not sure if I want to keep it, but as Vivalarevolución said, it's hard to find something so small packing so much power. There's really only about 5 laptops of this size that pack modern laptop computing power, I've tried 3, the other two are almost impossible to find for sale (imports).

About concerns about the hinge:

My concern with the hinge is not strength but wear. Instead of two hinges, you now have 10 that can wear and create slop. It doesn't help that it doesn't fold flat.

As cool as it looks, it still begs the question, what's the point? Okay it looks cool, but quintupled the failure points, thickened the laptop when closed and didn't actually solve any problems. It's an answer looking for a problem.

[Leslieann]

I would have loved to get my hands on Thinkpad Yoga, as I am a longtime fan of Thinkpads.  I love how pretty much everything can be quickly replaced by the user, and I can easily buy the parts online, if I ever need to do so.  Also, the keyboards are so much better to type on for longer periods than any other laptop I have tried, and of course the track point for the most discerning laptop users.

HP uses the same keyboard tech on many of their laptops which is why they feel good, but I agree, when all else fails, I look to Lenovo.

HP corporate stuff is often just as easy to work on as Lenovo, sometimes easier. As to why HP doesn't get the accolades, all you have to do is remember your last consumer grade HP product.

[kurplop]

About concerns about the hinge:

My concern with the hinge is not strength but wear. Instead of two hinges, you now have 10 that can wear and create slop. It doesn't help that it doesn't fold flat.

As cool as it looks, it still begs the question, what's the point? Okay it looks cool, but quintupled the failure points, thickened the laptop when closed and didn't actually solve any problems. It's an answer looking for a problem.

I'm not sure I understand the concern about the hinge. Between dirty environments and rough handling, I don't know many people as hard on their stuff as I am. I've found the hinge system to be a marvel. Mine's still as tight as the day I bought it. I can't compare it to other laptops though because I don't have a lot of experience with different laptops. Of course, I'm assuming all yogas have the same hinge as mine.

Have you ever seen one fail or loosen up?

[chuckdee]

As cool as it looks, it still begs the question, what's the point? Okay it looks cool, but quintupled the failure points, thickened the laptop when closed and didn't actually solve any problems. It's an answer looking for a problem.

Did you read the linked articles?  It doesn't even operate that way.  It's one mechanism.

Specifically: http://www.theverge.com/2015/10/6/9464187/surface-book-hinge-gifs

[chuckdee]

Thanks for posting that!  Looks like you took a really indepth view!

Thanks, I think not being a Mac fan helps keep it a bit more subjective. I didn't want to buy it, I'm still not sure if I want to keep it, but as Vivalarevolución said, it's hard to find something so small packing so much power. There's really only about 5 laptops of this size that pack modern laptop computing power, I've tried 3, the other two are almost impossible to find for sale (imports).

I was actually talking about vivalarevolution    I should have quoted him, but I thought my post was right after his.

[chuckdee]

I just want to throw this out there, the pros and cons-

Pros:

Versitile

Built in kickstand

Touchscreen

Cons:

High price

Bad for gaming

inflated keyboard

Hope that helps.

I got mine for $635 new.  Not that high of a price IMO.

[vivalarevolución]

About concerns about the hinge:

My concern with the hinge is not strength but wear. Instead of two hinges, you now have 10 that can wear and create slop. It doesn't help that it doesn't fold flat.

As cool as it looks, it still begs the question, what's the point? Okay it looks cool, but quintupled the failure points, thickened the laptop when closed and didn't actually solve any problems. It's an answer looking for a problem.

I'm not sure I understand the concern about the hinge. Between dirty environments and rough handling, I don't know many people as hard on their stuff as I am. I've found the hinge system to be a marvel. Mine's still as tight as the day I bought it. I can't compare it to other laptops though because I don't have a lot of experience with different laptops. Of course, I'm assuming all yogas have the same hinge as mine.

Have you ever seen one fail or loosen up?

I think Leslieann is referring the Lenovo Yoga watchband hinge:

More

I think you mentioned that you have a THINKPAD Yoga, which has a less flashy and less complex hinge.

While the watchband hinge does look like it could be susceptible to failure or wear because of the added moving parts and complexity, it would be a good idea to do some research on longer term user experiences.  There also are other reasons to steer clear of the Lenovo Yogas with the watchband hinge, as I have read about quality control issues and poor keyboards compared to other laptops.

[vivalarevolución]

I would have loved to get my hands on Thinkpad Yoga, as I am a longtime fan of Thinkpads.  I love how pretty much everything can be quickly replaced by the user, and I can easily buy the parts online, if I ever need to do so.  Also, the keyboards are so much better to type on for longer periods than any other laptop I have tried, and of course the track point for the most discerning laptop users.

HP uses the same keyboard tech on many of their laptops which is why they feel good, but I agree, when all else fails, I look to Lenovo.

HP corporate stuff is often just as easy to work on as Lenovo, sometimes easier. As to why HP doesn't get the accolades, all you have to do is remember your last consumer grade HP product.

Well, I'm guessing that using the same keyboard across different lines and models is quite common in the laptop industry.  Lenovo does it, obviously.  I noticed the keyboard on the Dell Inspirons is probably the same as the one on my Dell Chromebook (which actually is a turnoff because the keyboard feels especially wall-like).

We use the HP corporate models at my workplace and I have a friend that would get the retired HP and Lenovo laptops from his workplace.  When compared side by side, the Lenovos just seemed to hold up better than the HPs over the same period of time at the same workplace.  Now HP might have improved things in the last few years for their corporate stuff, I don't know.

There's something about that reliable Thinkpad aesthetic and Trackpoint that just leaves a lasting impression, after you become accustomed to it.  I'm typing this on a family member's Macbook right now, and my hand keeps searching for that Trackpoint.  Your hands also appreciate the improved ergonomics compared to even the best touch pads.

[Leslieann]

I would have loved to get my hands on Thinkpad Yoga, as I am a longtime fan of Thinkpads.  I love how pretty much everything can be quickly replaced by the user, and I can easily buy the parts online, if I ever need to do so.  Also, the keyboards are so much better to type on for longer periods than any other laptop I have tried, and of course the track point for the most discerning laptop users.

HP uses the same keyboard tech on many of their laptops which is why they feel good, but I agree, when all else fails, I look to Lenovo.

HP corporate stuff is often just as easy to work on as Lenovo, sometimes easier. As to why HP doesn't get the accolades, all you have to do is remember your last consumer grade HP product.

Well, I'm guessing that using the same keyboard across different lines and models is quite common in the laptop industry.  Lenovo does it, obviously.  I noticed the keyboard on the Dell Inspirons is probably the same as the one on my Dell Chromebook (which actually is a turnoff because the keyboard feels especially wall-like).

We use the HP corporate models at my workplace and I have a friend that would get the retired HP and Lenovo laptops from his workplace.  When compared side by side, the Lenovos just seemed to hold up better than the HPs over the same period of time at the same workplace.  Now HP might have improved things in the last few years for their corporate stuff, I don't know.

There's something about that reliable Thinkpad aesthetic and Trackpoint that just leaves a lasting impression, after you become accustomed to it.  I'm typing this on a family member's Macbook right now, and my hand keeps searching for that Trackpoint.  Your hands also appreciate the improved ergonomics compared to even the best touch pads.

Newer ones are better, but HP models do look tired and outdated sooner compared to Lenovo. I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that Lenovo created their own style, you may not like it, but like Apple, they're recognizable. Meanwhile HP chases whatever styling is hot at the time.

[Leslieann]

About concerns about the hinge:

My concern with the hinge is not strength but wear. Instead of two hinges, you now have 10 that can wear and create slop. It doesn't help that it doesn't fold flat.

As cool as it looks, it still begs the question, what's the point? Okay it looks cool, but quintupled the failure points, thickened the laptop when closed and didn't actually solve any problems. It's an answer looking for a problem.

I'm not sure I understand the concern about the hinge. Between dirty environments and rough handling, I don't know many people as hard on their stuff as I am. I've found the hinge system to be a marvel. Mine's still as tight as the day I bought it. I can't compare it to other laptops though because I don't have a lot of experience with different laptops. Of course, I'm assuming all yogas have the same hinge as mine.

Have you ever seen one fail or loosen up?

I think Leslieann is referring the Lenovo Yoga watchband hinge:

More

(Attachment Link)

I think you mentioned that you have a THINKPAD Yoga, which has a less flashy and less complex hinge.

While the watchband hinge does look like it could be susceptible to failure or wear because of the added moving parts and complexity, it would be a good idea to do some research on longer term user experiences.  There also are other reasons to steer clear of the Lenovo Yogas with the watchband hinge, as I have read about quality control issues and poor keyboards compared to other laptops.

No, I meant the Surface Book. None of the articles linked showed how it worked inside.

Watching the movies gifs  gives me the impression that every segment is just another common laptop style hinge inside. It's not, it uses something different but details are still sketch, regardless, it's a solution to a non-existent problem. MS claims it fixes a balance problem (and gives a premium appearance...), but I don't see how a normal hinge couldn't shift the weight in a similar way (Spectre 360 for example) without leaving that gap or adding significant cost. A bigger concern though is that in the Verge video you can see the screen wobble every time they move it, the last notebook I saw wobble like that was a well worn 6 year Lenovo. I'm not sure if it was the hinge or the connection but the latter of which could create significant problems down the line as it puts a load on the connector or pcb. Regardless of it being the hinge or not, it still puts stress on the connector and/or pcb, there's just no way around that.

The Lenovo watch band hinge is bad in this respect as well. If any of the segments develops slop or something, the whole thing could become a mess, though the Lenovo design may compensate due to it's design. Keep in mind Lenovo doesn't have a great history with hinges. At least they will be cheap and easy to replace compared to the Surface Book.

While they are always looking for ways to cheapen keyboard costs, Lenovos have they've gotten significantly worse since going to island style. That has to be one of the worst trends in laptops. My X220 was FAR, FAR better to type on than my Samsung Book 9 or Macbook Air. Even my X100e is better than both in my opinion and it uses the newer Lenovo style keyboard.

[chuckdee]

No, I meant the Surface Book. None of the articles linked showed how it worked inside.

Indeed, one of them did.  The same one I keep linking.  I'll include the image for ease of reference:



Another on the actual inside of the hinge itself:


And does this really matter if you get a good service contract?  On any first iteration device, I make sure I get the 4 year.

[Leslieann]

That first pic is not the hinge, that is the release mechanism for the connector.

That second pic never showed for me, not sure why  (actually I see, it was inside an animated gif), however it does confirm my worst fear in that it's pretty much just a bunch of traditional hinges.. I.E. 10x the parts. It's over complicated and pointless, the most common failure on a laptop today (other than screen) is mechanical parts, and this has plenty.  Mark my words, that connector and/or hinge is going to be a problem down the line, it may take a year or two before reports start piling up, but odds are it will be an issue. It won't stay connected, won't release, excessive screen wobble or won't stay upright.... It may be the best made laptop ever, doesn't mean it will be reliable long term.  Look at it another way, at best, it's as reliable as anything else, at worst, it's your worst nightmare, there's almost no way possible that this ends up being more reliable than other systems with so many moving parts.


As for a service contract...
Not only do they expire, but the BEST warranty is the one you never need to use.

Here's a great question to ask yourself...
Just how long can you go without your computer while it's being repaired? A day? 2 days? I've seen repairs take 2 weeks,  2 months, one place I worked at took a minimum of a month, but often took 3-6 months. What happens if that repair is bad, can you handle another month or more?

[chuckdee]

When I had a problem with my dell, it took less than a day.  That's the kind of service contract that I buy.  Overnight, to the location.  I've worked as an A+ Certified tech, so I know how it works.  And using it is worst case.  I haven't had to use most of them.  And if I buy it for 4 years, then I've sold it before it even runs out in every case.  And the release mechanism for the connector also deals with the hinge.  Look at the location.  Personally, I wouldn't buy a Book right now- it's first iteration.  That's the reason I hadn't even looked at the Surface before now.  But I have it, and it's been rock solid.

I get it.  You don't like it.  There's no real need to continue- opinions are personal, and it seems that you have your mind made up, which is cool, and I'm not trying to convince you.  I could point you to the fact that in all of the cases I have contact with people, they've had no problems around the hinge (power, OS stability, sure... patched and better in both cases).  But it is a great feat in engineering, and I look forward to the future iterations.

[vivalarevolución]

To the future!  And Happy Thanksgiving!

[vivalarevolución]

Well, for better or worse, I got a 2-in-1 rather than a high-powered tablet/laptop replacement.  I figured that if I ever wanted to do something like typing while on the couch or any situation in which I don't have a solid surface for resting the device, it would be nice to have the attached keyboard for balance.  Then I could fold back the keyboard to get it out of the way and use a fancy external keyboard when I am at home.  And then I have the touchscreen and pen for whatever.  I hear a 2-in-1 is the worst of both worlds, but I always have been intrigued, so we'll see how this works out.

[chuckdee]

Which 2-in-1 did you get if you don't mind me asking?

[hurst]

My Surface keeps losing Wifi.

Very annoying.

[tp4tissue]

My Surface keeps losing Wifi.

Very annoying.

That's what you get for Micro$py...


Nawh..hahahahahahha. check if the cable is good,  and it's possible the wifi chip has heat damage..



Make a small partition of 30gb.. and reinstall the whole system on that partition,  and if it works from there,  then it's software,   If not,   probably wifi chip heat damage, or loose antenna, or other board damage.

[vivalarevolución]

Which 2-in-1 did you get if you don't mind me asking?

I decided on a Thinkpad Yoga 260, it seemed like a good combo of price, connections, portability, quality, and user upgradeability.  Plus the Trackpoint, keyboard, and stylus are nice to have.  Although I completely expect Lenovo to track my usage. 

I was hesitant because Lenovo is going to announce some new Kaby Lake Thinkpad laptops in a couple weeks, although I imagine the availability of those will be even further off and the prices will be twice what I paid here.  I'm only looking for a decent 2-in-1 to browse the web, do some office work, listen to music, watch videos, and play around with a stylus.  So this Yoga 260 should work until I get restless again.

Other devices that I strongly considered were the Vaio Z Canvas (beefy quad-core tablet), Dell XPS, and Surface Pro/Book.  All those were too pricey and overkill for my intended usage, which does not require a super awesome screen.  Plus, I am addicted to the Thinkpad keyboard with Trackpoint.

[Findecanor]

Yes, I'm posting in an old thread, but I tried these out yesterday.

I noticed that the most recent Type Cover for the recent Surface tablet had a very slippery key surface, as if the keys had been made of untextured POM or as if they had been coated with lube.
The full-size standalone chiclet "Microsoft Surface Keyboard" did have the same slippery feeling.

I have yet not tried the "Microsoft Surface Ergonomic keyboard", but I don't have my hopes up.
The "Surface Book"'s keyboard wasn't slippery despite looking the same.
Anyway, Microsoft hardware Surface and Surface Book has a very poor reliability record.

[rowdy]

Yes, I'm posting in an old thread, but I tried these out yesterday.

I noticed that the most recent Type Cover for the recent Surface tablet had a very slippery key surface, as if the keys had been made of untextured POM or as if they had been coated with lube.
The full-size standalone chiclet "Microsoft Surface Keyboard" did have the same slippery feeling.

I have yet not tried the "Microsoft Surface Ergonomic keyboard", but I don't have my hopes up.
The "Surface Book"'s keyboard wasn't slippery despite looking the same.
Anyway, Microsoft hardware has a very poor reliability record.

I have some old Microsoft mouses that are still going strong some 10+ years later.

[Findecanor]

I have some old Microsoft mouses that are still going strong some 10+ years later.

Yeah, but I was referring specifically to the recent Surface tablet and Surface Book, not good olde hardware.
Excuse me for being unspecific in my wording.

[chuckdee]

Yes, I'm posting in an old thread, but I tried these out yesterday.

I noticed that the most recent Type Cover for the recent Surface tablet had a very slippery key surface, as if the keys had been made of untextured POM or as if they had been coated with lube.
The full-size standalone chiclet "Microsoft Surface Keyboard" did have the same slippery feeling.

I have yet not tried the "Microsoft Surface Ergonomic keyboard", but I don't have my hopes up.
The "Surface Book"'s keyboard wasn't slippery despite looking the same.
Anyway, Microsoft hardware Surface and Surface Book has a very poor reliability record.

Good comment:

The real story here is that an organization that does professional reviews is unwilling to give a product an opportunity to convince them their preconceived notions regarding it are wrong.

An honest reviewer must always be willing to dismiss their preconceived notions regarding a product should the real thing either exceed or fail to live up to them. They need to be able to set aside their petty tribalism, their personal preferences, and any rumors they may have heard about the product, instead judging it based purely on what it actually is.

Pre-announcing your decision before you even have the product in your hands is a way of indicating that you're unwilling to do that. That you won't allow yourself to be convinced. That you're being intellectually dishonest with yourself. Why would anyone trust that reviewer?