Is it worth it to desolder all the switches or just buy new keyboard?

[Hyde]

A while back I bought a Archiss ProgressTouch Retro (Basically rebranded Leopold FC900R):  http://www.archisite.co.jp/products/archiss/progres-touch/retro-en/

At the time I didn't have any MX Black so I wanted to try it out.

But I'm stuck in a dillema where I think MX Black is too heavy but I really like the build and construction of the keyboard (even come with nice double shot keycaps).

Now I can either desolder all the switches and swap springs to either 62g or 65g (I find MX Red too light and MX Black too heavy, but my preference is leaning on lighter switches) or I can save myself the hassle and just buy a new keyboard (MX Red).

For instance I don't have a good soldering iron also only have those crappy solder pump for desolder.  So for me to invest in all those equipment and time I feel like it's almost better just to buy a new keyboard (I kind of want to try FC980M/C anyway).

Out of curiosity, my preference is lighter switches (MX Blue/Brown/Red), I just wish Red is a tiny bit heavier, in this case would it be better to go 62g or 65g if I end up going this route?

Also I read a post saying 62g springs are longer and it will actually reduce travel by 1 mm?  (Really old post, not sure if it's still the same now)

What do you guys think?

[clickityClackity]

My opinion is spend the money on a soldering iron with a built in solder sucker (because I suck at solder sucking with a solder sucker that's not on the soldering iron, suckers). Then, if you ever plan on changing switches or changing the layout again, install holtites instead of soldering on new switches. Then it becomes a one time soldering job, and you'll enjoy doing the next change because it's so ****ing nice and easy.

Sent from my Lenovo PB2-670N using Tapatalk

[tp4tissue]

BUY a new keyboard..

[Altis]

I'm quite certain that the Korean springs reduce the travel at all (which would mean that the spring is fully compressed before the slider reaches the bottom).

If you like linears and it's just the weight, it might be worth it to open it up as it's not as easy to buy a keyboard that has 62g linear switches in it. You can also lubricate them while you have it open, which should help with Cherry MX linears (unless your board is one of the very nice ones with the updated Cherry MX Black switches). 62g are probably just right if you want something just a tad heavier than MX Red/Blue/Brown (which are ~59g).

Of course, an FC980C would be really nice as well. But if you're going to stay with Cherry MX anyways then you'll still have the same issue of not having the weighting that you're looking for.

[SpAmRaY]

FC980M definitely

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[clickityClackity]

You mention click and linear.. Not sure if you're aware but springs will be "heavier" on clicky switches by design, so if you're going to clicky or linear keep that in mind. Might want to get a switch tester at this point

Sent from my Lenovo PB2-670N using Tapatalk

[Hyde]

My opinion is spend the money on a soldering iron with a built in solder sucker (because I suck at solder sucking with a solder sucker that's not on the soldering iron, suckers). Then, if you ever plan on changing switches or changing the layout again, install holtites instead of soldering on new switches. Then it becomes a one time soldering job, and you'll enjoy doing the next change because it's so ****ing nice and easy.

Sent from my Lenovo PB2-670N using Tapatalk

Hmmmmm I am very tempted to get one, my current solder sucker sucks.  Though aren't those typically runs around the $300 range?  =____=||

You mention click and linear.. Not sure if you're aware but springs will be "heavier" on clicky switches by design, so if you're going to clicky or linear keep that in mind. Might want to get a switch tester at this point

Sent from my Lenovo PB2-670N using Tapatalk

Ops sorry yes I meant to say is that while Blue/Brown/Red have the same spring, I like Brown's weight the best while Red feels a tad too light.

Hopefully the 62g spring in MX Black (identical to Red) housing will be just right.

I think now I'm leaning more and more on modding the current keyboard.  Might be a fun project.  Just need to figure out the cost on desoldering gun.

FC980M/C will have to wait a bit. 

Though why do they sell those springs in packs of 100.  My keyboard have 104 keys....  sigh.....

[clickityClackity]

My opinion is spend the money on a soldering iron with a built in solder sucker (because I suck at solder sucking with a solder sucker that's not on the soldering iron, suckers). Then, if you ever plan on changing switches or changing the layout again, install holtites instead of soldering on new switches. Then it becomes a one time soldering job, and you'll enjoy doing the next change because it's so ****ing nice and easy.

Sent from my Lenovo PB2-670N using Tapatalk

Hmmmmm I am very tempted to get one, my current solder sucker sucks.  Though aren't those typically runs around the $300 range?  =____=||

You mention click and linear.. Not sure if you're aware but springs will be "heavier" on clicky switches by design, so if you're going to clicky or linear keep that in mind. Might want to get a switch tester at this point

Sent from my Lenovo PB2-670N using Tapatalk

Ops sorry yes I meant to say is that while Blue/Brown/Red have the same spring, I like Brown's weight the best while Red feels a tad too light.

Hopefully the 62g spring in MX Black (identical to Red) housing will be just right.

I think now I'm leaning more and more on modding the current keyboard.  Might be a fun project.  Just need to figure out the cost on desoldering gun.

FC980M/C will have to wait a bit. 

Though why do they sell those springs in packs of 100.  My keyboard have 104 keys....  sigh.....

For very nice ones they can get pricey, but this one works great for me (20 bucks in the US):
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00068IJSG/ref=cm_sw_r_other_apa_WE1szbCPRA5XE

If you get this one just be careful not to overheat as it's a set temp and will ruin the PCB if you leave it on too long!

If you decide on a spring, there's a good chance I'll have 4 more to compete you're set. Just PM me and I'll just invoice you for the cost of shipping.

Sent from my Lenovo PB2-670N using Tapatalk

[kawasaki161]

Hopefully the 62g spring in MX Black (identical to Red) housing will be just right.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you, but just to make sure:
A 62g aftermarket spring (when it is rated for bottom-out) in a linear Cherry switch will not feel the same as a Cherry Red switch. The force curve is different and the Cherry Red is a bit lighter iirc.

[Leslieann]

Buy a new keyboard, send it out to someone with experience... Or...
Learn on something else first

Learning to solder, and de-solder (which I find much more difficult, especially now that we use non-leaded solder) isn't really something you want to learn on an expensive mechanical keyboard, you WILL screw it up, how bad and is it fixable is the real question (melted switch, burnt off pad). I recommend learning on old motherboards since the capacitors are often similar to desoldering a switch or non-s.m.d. LED. If you don't have any, ask a local computer shop, odds are they have one laying around.


As mentioned, Cherry springs are rated differently than aftermarket, Cherry uses trigger pressure (which is about 5-10grams extra to trigger a tactile switch), aftermarket measure how much it takes to fully compress the spring. Note that I did not say bottom out the switch.

A 62g aftermarket spring is actually almost identical to a light Cherry spring (red/blue) at the actuation point (less than a 2gram difference), the difference is that it has more coils and is longer, unlike a Cherry where the spring slowly ramps up in pressure, the 62gram starts off lighter than Cherry, matches it at actuation point and the ramps up to become quite a bit stiffer before the switch bottoms out.

If you want stiffer you will need the 67g aftermarket springs, which will change the ramp up, but also be stiffer at the actuation point. If you want similar to a Cherry spring, but just something in between Red and Black, look into finding Outemu light springs (red or blue) which are right in between Cherry red and black.

[Hyde]

Hopefully the 62g spring in MX Black (identical to Red) housing will be just right.

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you, but just to make sure:
A 62g aftermarket spring (when it is rated for bottom-out) in a linear Cherry switch will not feel the same as a Cherry Red switch. The force curve is different and the Cherry Red is a bit lighter iirc.

lol yeah I actually find MX Red a little bit too light so I want something a little bit heavier.  MX Black is WAY too heavy so out of the 2 I'd rather stay on the lighter side, so a little bit heavier than MX Red would be good.

Buy a new keyboard, send it out to someone with experience... Or...
Learn on something else first

Learning to solder, and de-solder (which I find much more difficult, especially now that we use non-leaded solder) isn't really something you want to learn on an expensive mechanical keyboard, you WILL screw it up, how bad and is it fixable is the real question (melted switch, burnt off pad). I recommend learning on old motherboards since the capacitors are often similar to desoldering a switch or non-s.m.d. LED. If you don't have any, ask a local computer shop, odds are they have one laying around.


As mentioned, Cherry springs are rated differently than aftermarket, Cherry uses trigger pressure (which is about 5-10grams extra to trigger a tactile switch), aftermarket measure how much it takes to fully compress the spring. Note that I did not say bottom out the switch.

A 62g aftermarket spring is actually almost identical to a light Cherry spring (red/blue) at the actuation point (less than a 2gram difference), the difference is that it has more coils and is longer, unlike a Cherry where the spring slowly ramps up in pressure, the 62gram starts off lighter than Cherry, matches it at actuation point and the ramps up to become quite a bit stiffer before the switch bottoms out.

If you want stiffer you will need the 67g aftermarket springs, which will change the ramp up, but also be stiffer at the actuation point. If you want similar to a Cherry spring, but just something in between Red and Black, look into finding Outemu light springs (red or blue) which are right in between Cherry red and black.

Uh I think soldering is not the issue, I actually did manage to solder in all the LEDs for my Poker 2.

It's just that I have a very budget soldering iron and a cheap solder sucker it can get the job done, but I'd imagine having a better tool would make the task a lot easier.  Really dislike desoldering.

I should look into the soldering iron clickityclackity suggested. 

Though I read this too late I already bought 62g springs and they're on the way.  =_____=  LOL trigger finger.

I feel like 67g might be too heavy maybe I could've gone for 65g.  Though I didn't mind so much on the actuation force, I think MX Black ramp up too much at bottom out (since I always bottom out when typing on linear).

As someone mentioned earlier that MX Red bottom out around 59g, so I think 62g or 65g might've been ok.  Though MX Black bottom out around 80g, so 67g probably would be closer to the middle.

Oh well I already ordered the springs so kind of a bit late now, I'll find out later LOLLLL. 

[Hyde]

So I finally got around to finish the spring swap, I bought some Gold Korean 62g Springs from:  https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=1350

SADLY I think I jumped the gun too fast and didn't get to read Leslieann's warnings. 

As mentioned, Cherry springs are rated differently than aftermarket, Cherry uses trigger pressure (which is about 5-10grams extra to trigger a tactile switch), aftermarket measure how much it takes to fully compress the spring. Note that I did not say bottom out the switch.

A 62g aftermarket spring is actually almost identical to a light Cherry spring (red/blue) at the actuation point (less than a 2gram difference), the difference is that it has more coils and is longer, unlike a Cherry where the spring slowly ramps up in pressure, the 62gram starts off lighter than Cherry, matches it at actuation point and the ramps up to become quite a bit stiffer before the switch bottoms out.

If you want stiffer you will need the 67g aftermarket springs, which will change the ramp up, but also be stiffer at the actuation point. If you want similar to a Cherry spring, but just something in between Red and Black, look into finding Outemu light springs (red or blue) which are right in between Cherry red and black.

I didn't think the force curve difference would bug me.  But sadly it's actually quite noticeable and I think I actually like stock MX Red better (I know, quite a surprise) because the force ramp up more evenly.  The Korean spring ramp up slowly and at actuation point actually feels lighter than MX Red, then quickly spikes up to heavier than MX Red.  I also notice with Korean springs there's a bit more variance in weight, some keys are a bit lighter and some are heavier.

Lesson learned, Korean spring is not for everyone.  I think the odd ramp up is less noticeable in tactile/clicky switches but on linear switch it bugs me quite a bit.

At least I get to take some nice pictures in the process.  Though at this point I'm not sure if I have the energy to re-do it, maybe I'll just keep it as is for now.




The Cherry MX Black springs are the darker springs, the new ones are the gold spring.

I think it's interesting that they left 4 cherry switch spaces at the top right for LED, I guess maybe the OEM also manufacture other keyboards that has buttons at the top right (Maybe Ducky?  CM Storm?).  Also notice the LED dimmers caps.

At this point I kind of wish I just bought the FC980M with MX Red (or even FC980C) instead, I guess this is the trial and error of life. 

[Leslieann]

SADLY I think I jumped the gun too fast and didn't get to read Leslieann's warnings.

I guess this is the trial and error of life.

Sorry, I wish it would have worked for you.
On the bright side, you are one step closer to exactly what you want (right now) and it only cost you a set of springs.

That is one of the things about this hobby, it's a lot of trial and error and in most cases there really isn't an "endgame" or "best" as many people seem to think. Think of it more as food, today a taco may hit the spot, tomorrow you may want Italian, and sometimes a burger is just as good, maybe even add cheese. There is no one food that you want for life and the "best" keyboard today may not be the best for you tomorrow (especially as new products emerge), more importantly, what is best for you may not be best for the next person and vice versa.


As for this board, you still have options, you could get used to it, sell it, or swap it to a different spring.
My advice, sell it and get the FC980M you want, someone would love to buy a board with the springs already swapped and in the end, you both get what you want.

[Hyde]

BUT SUSHI IS FOR LIFE ~ LOLLLLLL jk.  Though I really can eat sushi and/or curry rice for a long time.

That being said, I think you are correct.  I might use it for a while to see if I get used to it, worst case scenario I'll just sell it and like you said there might be someone out there that's looking for this.

In the mean time I guess I'll just spend the time debating on getting FC980M OR FC980C. 

Thanks again for the advice! 

[OfTheWild]

I personally think desoldering a board that you like is worth it. Its not super difficult but cant be time-consuming. All of my boards that were not kits have been desoldered and swapped for something I prefer.
If you're not comfortable doing it, its not that expensive to have someone build it for you. (I offer that service, but so do a lot of other people in Canada that should be cheaper in shipping as well).

[dgneo]

A while back I bought a Archiss ProgressTouch Retro (Basically rebranded Leopold FC900R):  http://www.archisite.co.jp/products/archiss/progres-touch/retro-en/

At the time I didn't have any MX Black so I wanted to try it out.

But I'm stuck in a dillema where I think MX Black is too heavy but I really like the build and construction of the keyboard (even come with nice double shot keycaps).

Now I can either desolder all the switches and swap springs to either 62g or 65g (I find MX Red too light and MX Black too heavy, but my preference is leaning on lighter switches) or I can save myself the hassle and just buy a new keyboard (MX Red).

For instance I don't have a good soldering iron also only have those crappy solder pump for desolder.  So for me to invest in all those equipment and time I feel like it's almost better just to buy a new keyboard (I kind of want to try FC980M/C anyway).

Out of curiosity, my preference is lighter switches (MX Blue/Brown/Red), I just wish Red is a tiny bit heavier, in this case would it be better to go 62g or 65g if I end up going this route?

Also I read a post saying 62g springs are longer and it will actually reduce travel by 1 mm?  (Really old post, not sure if it's still the same now)

What do you guys think?

https://plot.ly/~haata

Check out haata's work here

[Hyde]

A while back I bought a Archiss ProgressTouch Retro (Basically rebranded Leopold FC900R):  http://www.archisite.co.jp/products/archiss/progres-touch/retro-en/

At the time I didn't have any MX Black so I wanted to try it out.

But I'm stuck in a dillema where I think MX Black is too heavy but I really like the build and construction of the keyboard (even come with nice double shot keycaps).

Now I can either desolder all the switches and swap springs to either 62g or 65g (I find MX Red too light and MX Black too heavy, but my preference is leaning on lighter switches) or I can save myself the hassle and just buy a new keyboard (MX Red).

For instance I don't have a good soldering iron also only have those crappy solder pump for desolder.  So for me to invest in all those equipment and time I feel like it's almost better just to buy a new keyboard (I kind of want to try FC980M/C anyway).

Out of curiosity, my preference is lighter switches (MX Blue/Brown/Red), I just wish Red is a tiny bit heavier, in this case would it be better to go 62g or 65g if I end up going this route?

Also I read a post saying 62g springs are longer and it will actually reduce travel by 1 mm?  (Really old post, not sure if it's still the same now)

What do you guys think?

https://plot.ly/~haata

Check out haata's work here

lol omg so detailed, though unfortunately he doesn't have any info on Korean springs with Cherry Red. 

[Targa-TV]

This is why I prefer plates with the notches for switch top removal or ALPS plates.

Buy a new keyboard or desolder all the switches?

No thank you. I'll just pop them open and swap springs and stems.