Feedback wanted on an ANSI-ISO hybrid

[ctrl]

I've been sketching on an ANSI-ISO hybrid in KLE for a while and would like to hear your thoughts on it.

The idea is to retain ANSI as far as possible, to drastically reduce the amount of keys included in kits, and to making accessible ANSI novelty keys for Norde-users. Hopefully, it'd also reduce complaints about missing symbol keys for specific language layouts. To achieve minimum amount of keys in such a kit a uniform profile such as DSA or XDA is assumed.

I've planned the layout with a 60% keyboard in mind. I use ISO-SE in example.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/6610918c1a8f54f602b43cacfb095daf

The keys listed below cover layouts for Nordic and German languages (including a suggested 1u AltGr for 60% layouts with arrow clusters).

This is how I reasoned for the custom keys:

• Brackets are added to keys already containing parentheses and enclosed by curly brackets as they are on ISO keyboards, except adjust one key to the right in this case.
• ´` are added to += key since ´` usually inhabits the same place on an ISO keyboard.
• German S is added to ?/ since it usually is paired with ?

So what do you think? Is there something that could be done better? Could a kit like this be interesting?


PS. First time poster. Couldn't attach an image from the computer where I am right now so hopefully the KLE link will be ok.

[TalkingTree]

I believe you got the brackets on the num row wrong.

Anyway I'd say it would much easier to use a true ANSI keyboard and add a NorDe number row and punctuation strip, like so.
The short left shift is usually included in every kit, so it makes a total of 13 more keys.

Just my two cents.

[ctrl]

I believe you got the brackets on the num row wrong.

Thanks for your input! I'll try to explain more in detail how I reasoned.

The brackets are intentionally aligned one key to the right as described.

Anyway I'd say it would much easier to use a true ANSI keyboard and add a NorDe number row and punctuation strip, like so.
The short left shift is usually included in every kit, so it makes a total of 13 more keys.

Well, the reason is that adding letters in Nordic and German languages to an ANSI layout would conflict with a Norde number row and punctuation strip.
If you add Å Ä Ö to an ANSI keyboard, you remove the R2 bracket keys as well as R3 :; and "'
Adding the ISO R1 2" key would remove @ as well as leave you without a ' key. Adding ISO 3£ would remove the # key. Adding 6& would remove the ^ key.
It would also remove the dead ´` keys which would be problematic as these are used in many Europeans languages.

[TalkingTree]

So you're basically suggesting a unique layout rather than added keys? I doubt it would be successful or let alone popular. ANSI users wouldn't ever buy that. Your best be is adding the extra legends to the front of the keycap.

Again, my two cents.

[ctrl]

So you're basically suggesting a unique layout rather than added keys? I doubt it would be successful or let alone popular. ANSI users wouldn't ever buy that. Your best be is adding the extra legends to the front of the keycap.

Again, my two cents.

Yup. Target group would be Norde users.

ANSI users already dominate the market. European users often see kits never reaching MOQ or not being included at all due to costs, as well as missing out on ANSI-only novelty keys.

Extra legends on front sounds good too. It's just quite common to see three or four on the same key on a Nordic keyboard.

[ojrask]

I would just go US ANSI and use OS layouts to toggle usage of ÖÄÅ when needed. I have a 60% just like this and hitting Gui-Space on Linux and Shift-Alt on Windows every now and then to type ÖÄÅ is simple. As a plus I can get to buy regular keycap set basekits and skip the international kits.

The only problem I have with this is a that somehow when I use the Win key on Windows 7 it seems to flip my input language, need to investigate why it does that.

I'm from Finland but as a programmer US ANSI just makes more sense.

[Gampela]

I don't know if anyone cares, but I have been using this kind of layout for my HHKB for a while now. http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/5f8d010e633119104ff2f8310670cbfa
As a finn I only need special letters Ö and Ä so it frees me from using Å altogether. Currently I'm using blank keycaps, but if I wanted, I would just need 4 ISO-Nordic keycaps in addition to the normal ANSI set to make the keycaps to match (I think I could live without the custom bracket keys).

Also to ojrask: I don't know if this helps but at least for me Windows-key + Space changes the input language.

EDIT: Ofc if you are a full-time programmer it probably makes most sense to just change between OS input languages when needed.

[ctrl]

I would just go US ANSI and use OS layouts to toggle usage of ÖÄÅ when needed. I have a 60% just like this and hitting Gui-Space on Linux and Shift-Alt on Windows every now and then to type ÖÄÅ is simple. As a plus I can get to buy regular keycap set basekits and skip the international kits.

The only problem I have with this is a that somehow when I use the Win key on Windows 7 it seems to flip my input language, need to investigate why it does that.

I'm from Finland but as a programmer US ANSI just makes more sense.

I don't know if anyone cares, but I have been using this kind of layout for my HHKB for a while now. http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/gists/5f8d010e633119104ff2f8310670cbfa
As a finn I only need special letters Ö and Ä so it frees me from using Å altogether. Currently I'm using blank keycaps, but if I wanted, I would just need 4 ISO-Nordic keycaps in addition to the normal ANSI set to make the keycaps to match (I think I could live without the custom bracket keys).

Also to ojrask: I don't know if this helps but at least for me Windows-key + Space changes the input language.

EDIT: Ofc if you are a full-time programmer it probably makes most sense to just change between OS input languages when needed.

Gampela: That looks nice! Not too many changes needed.

Overall, I'd say that I'd like to avoid switching language in the OS too much. For me, it just feels like it breaks the flow. Also, I kinda like having Swedish letters on my keyboard, but yeah, it's a hassle when it comes to keycaps. I'm also very picky about having the AltGr key.

Well, I just received a shipment of MX Lock switches and it struck me that it might be interesting to have a lock key switching between US ANSI and, in my case, Swedish ISO directly on the keyboard. In that case, there'd be no need to do so in the OS. Has anyone tried this?

As a sidenote. When GMK Nautilus dropped, I tried combining existing keyset keys for a hybrid: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x-zambumon-gmk-nautilus-custom-keycap-set/talk/1744671
Not too pretty perhaps, but it'd cover most symbols. An interesting experiment if nothing else.

It's really interesting to hear how and why you've used ANSI/ISO!

[Findecanor]

Well, I just received a shipment of MX Lock switches and it struck me that it might be interesting to have a lock key switching between US ANSI and, in my case, Swedish ISO directly on the keyboard. In that case, there'd be no need to do so in the OS. Has anyone tried this?

You would still need to make a custom layout in the OS that uses the locking key's symbol as a modifier to alter between two sets of symbols.

That wouldn't be too difficult with xmodmap under X11. I don't know how difficult it would be on MacOS or MS Windows.

[ojrask]

Gampela: That looks nice! Not too many changes needed.

Overall, I'd say that I'd like to avoid switching language in the OS too much. For me, it just feels like it breaks the flow. Also, I kinda like having Swedish letters on my keyboard, but yeah, it's a hassle when it comes to keycaps. I'm also very picky about having the AltGr key.

Well, I just received a shipment of MX Lock switches and it struck me that it might be interesting to have a lock key switching between US ANSI and, in my case, Swedish ISO directly on the keyboard. In that case, there'd be no need to do so in the OS. Has anyone tried this?

As a sidenote. When GMK Nautilus dropped, I tried combining existing keyset keys for a hybrid: https://www.massdrop.com/buy/massdrop-x-zambumon-gmk-nautilus-custom-keycap-set/talk/1744671
Not too pretty perhaps, but it'd cover most symbols. An interesting experiment if nothing else.

It's really interesting to hear how and why you've used ANSI/ISO!

QMK supports outputting unicode characters, but OS support was shaky at best (I think you had to reflash firmware for each major operating system, which means you can't use the board or the keys while switching between Windows and Linux for instance). If you're going to use your board with just one OS you should check it out.

I also have a few new lock switches in my closet waiting for a board. I guess BananaSplit 60 gets a few.

[ctrl]

You would still need to make a custom layout in the OS that uses the locking key's symbol as a modifier to alter between two sets of symbols.

That wouldn't be too difficult with xmodmap under X11. I don't know how difficult it would be on MacOS or MS Windows.

QMK supports outputting unicode characters, but OS support was shaky at best (I think you had to reflash firmware for each major operating system, which means you can't use the board or the keys while switching between Windows and Linux for instance). If you're going to use your board with just one OS you should check it out.

I also have a few new lock switches in my closet waiting for a board. I guess BananaSplit 60 gets a few.

Thanks for the suggestions! I dual boot Linux and Windows so I guess I'll have a challenge ahead.

Ojrask: Would you know if OS support differs with TMK?

Also, BananaSplit60 is exactly the build I plan to use the first lock switches with.

[ojrask]

Ojrask: Would you know if OS support differs with TMK?

Not as familiar with TMK. QMK builds upon TMK features though as far as I know.

[ideus]

Why not just use an ANSI US International layout and access the accented extra vowels in DE with Alt Gr? I have been using it to write in English and Spanish for many years with no issues whatsoever and I will try to write in German using the same, soon, as I am learning German now. The question is genuine, I really do not see the point of the need of the extra symbols, when you can easily access them using a few shortcuts.

[pomk]

Why not just use an ANSI US International layout and access the accented extra vowels in DE with Alt Gr? I have been using it to write in English and Spanish for many years with no issues whatsoever and I will try to write in German using the same, soon, as I am learning German now. The question is genuine, I really do not see the point of the need of the extra symbols, when you can easily access them using a few shortcuts.

Those letters are used very often in the swe/fi languages. You would not put the letters 'a' 's' and 'w' behind alt-gr and call it convenient.

[ctrl]

Why not just use an ANSI US International layout and access the accented extra vowels in DE with Alt Gr? I have been using it to write in English and Spanish for many years with no issues whatsoever and I will try to write in German using the same, soon, as I am learning German now. The question is genuine, I really do not see the point of the need of the extra symbols, when you can easily access them using a few shortcuts.

Those letters are used very often in the swe/fi languages. You would not put the letters 'a' 's' and 'w' behind alt-gr and call it convenient.

This. Swedish, Finnish, Norwegian and Danish languages have additional letters. Accessing these in both capitals and small letters would be terribly inconvenient using function and modifier keys; e.g. using AltGr/Fn+Shift+[letter] just to type a capital letter would hamper typing flow when typing in your native language. (The extra letters are vowels and are as such used often enough for this to be a real issue.)

Perhaps using a function key to alter between keymaps for those particular keys could work if one wants to use ANSI. I'm thinking I'll try this at some point.

[FloFoer94]

Why not just use an ANSI US International layout and access the accented extra vowels in DE with Alt Gr? I have been using it to write in English and Spanish for many years with no issues whatsoever and I will try to write in German using the same, soon, as I am learning German now. The question is genuine, I really do not see the point of the need of the extra symbols, when you can easily access them using a few shortcuts.

Those letters are used very often in the swe/fi languages. You would not put the letters 'a' 's' and 'w' behind alt-gr and call it convenient.

This. Swedish, Finnish, Norwegian and Danish languages have additional letters. Accessing these in both capitals and small letters would be terribly inconvenient using function and modifier keys; e.g. using AltGr/Fn+Shift+[letter] just to type a capital letter would hamper typing flow when typing in your native language. (The extra letters are vowels and are as such used often enough for this to be a real issue.)

Perhaps using a function key to alter between keymaps for those particular keys could work if one wants to use ANSI. I'm thinking I'll try this at some point.

With ANSI-US International layout the " key seems to work a bit different. This enables writing Ä the same way as A if you hit the " key before. One additional (easy accessible) keystroke for ÄÖÜ feels acceptable for me.
I'm german and i'm using an ANSI-US Magicforce 68. I'm starting to prefer ANSI-US to something like ISO-DE because of the lack of dedicated ÄÖÜ keys there is more room for symbol keys. As software dev it's nice to have {[]}/\ more easy accessible. But admittedly i'm using my native language nowadays not so often anymore, because i honestly don't like my language that much and try to avoid it whenever possible

[ideus]

Why not just use an ANSI US International layout and access the accented extra vowels in DE with Alt Gr? I have been using it to write in English and Spanish for many years with no issues whatsoever and I will try to write in German using the same, soon, as I am learning German now. The question is genuine, I really do not see the point of the need of the extra symbols, when you can easily access them using a few shortcuts.

Those letters are used very often in the swe/fi languages. You would not put the letters 'a' 's' and 'w' behind alt-gr and call it convenient.

This. Swedish, Finnish, Norwegian and Danish languages have additional letters. Accessing these in both capitals and small letters would be terribly inconvenient using function and modifier keys; e.g. using AltGr/Fn+Shift+[letter] just to type a capital letter would hamper typing flow when typing in your native language. (The extra letters are vowels and are as such used often enough for this to be a real issue.)

Perhaps using a function key to alter between keymaps for those particular keys could work if one wants to use ANSI. I'm thinking I'll try this at some point.

With ANSI-US International layout the " key seems to work a bit different. This enables writing Ä the same way as A if you hit the " key before. One additional (easy accessible) keystroke for ÄÖÜ feels acceptable for me.
I'm german and i'm using an ANSI-US Magicforce 68. I'm starting to prefer ANSI-US to something like ISO-DE because of the lack of dedicated ÄÖÜ keys there is more room for symbol keys. As software dev it's nice to have {[]}/\ more easy accessible. But admittedly i'm using my native language nowadays not so often anymore, because i honestly don't like my language that much and try to avoid it whenever possible

This means that there is still hope for German learners like me to keep using the same layout and keyboard for all my writing needs in Spanish, English and now in German. Awesome.

[ctrl]

With ANSI-US International layout the " key seems to work a bit different. This enables writing Ä the same way as A if you hit the " key before. One additional (easy accessible) keystroke for ÄÖÜ feels acceptable for me.
I'm german and i'm using an ANSI-US Magicforce 68. I'm starting to prefer ANSI-US to something like ISO-DE because of the lack of dedicated ÄÖÜ keys there is more room for symbol keys. As software dev it's nice to have {[]}/\ more easy accessible. But admittedly i'm using my native language nowadays not so often anymore, because i honestly don't like my language that much and try to avoid it whenever possible

Ooh, so " works like a dead key? Like compose? A compose key for additional native letters sounds like a really good solution, although personally I'd prefer to have the Swedish letters on the same keys as they are usually found; i.e. on US-ANSI Å on {[, Ä on :; and Ö on "'. I suppose both TMK and QMK support customizing this?