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geekhack Community => Reviews => Topic started by: nubbinator on Fri, 22 August 2014, 22:04:28
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If you despise Topre heresy, read no further.
I decided I'd do an almost blog like post on my experience with Topre in the form of the FC660C over the course of a week or so and finishing off with a proper review. Hoffmanmyster, being the generous dictatorial overlord that he is, let me borrow his FC660C for an unspecified period of time. I don't think I'll keep it longer than two weeks, but it's an open borrowing. He even trusted me with a sexy as hell Pea Soup Clack, a Sifo's Soul BB V@, and a couple of Binge Caps. We'll see if that was a wise decision ;)
So far my thoughts on Topre are mixed. When I got the FC660C, I sent Hoff this message:
"I'm typing this on the FC660C right now. It's taking some getting used to, but it's not bad. Right off the bat I noticed that flat it's too flat and that standing on the legs, it's too tall, but the switches feel much better than I remember mkawa's Realforce feeling. They feel heavier, though the landing is a little weird for me."
"There's just something weird about the landing so far. I may get used to it, but it just is so abrupt. "
I finished out the night using it for gaming and typing and it still felt weird to me. On day two, I decided I still have a weird love/hate relationship with Topre. It is by far the smoothest switch I have ever used. I cannot deny that it's pleasant to press the switch to the bump since it just feels like a glide all the way to it. The bump is almost too much for me though. It's so severe. You have this gentle glide down to this massive tactile bump. I love my Ergo Clears, but the Topre bump feels bigger. The bump is nice and smooth and crisp most of the time, but occasionally gets an almost mushy feel to it. The smooth yet crisp is a weird combination.
Up until the landing, I could see myself growing to love Topre, but the landing so far is killing Topre for me. I've always been a heavier typist. I don't bang the keys around and thud them bottoming out, but I'm also terrible at floating them to just past the point of actuation without bottoming out. Topre switches feel like I have to bottom them out and that bottoming out comes so quickly and so severely that I'm beginning to think that it may be a deal breaker for me. It's just such a heavy and unpleasant landing that it ruins all the niceness of the switch leading up to the bottoming out.
I'm hoping they grow on me and my opinion changes, but as of day two, I still can't find myself loving Topre like I do MX and Alps. Alps just have character to them that makes them fun and MX just feel so nice to me since I don't have to thud them into the bottom of the switch.
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I have the same experience as you do with the bottom out. I don't think I'm that heavy handed when I type but I do bottom out. The landing is too harsh for me and it really takes a toll on my hands.
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I have the same experience as you do with the bottom out. I don't think I'm that heavy handed when I type but I do bottom out. The landing is too harsh for me and it really takes a toll on my hands.
Glad to know I'm not alone on that. I really want to like the switch, but right now the bottoming out is killing it for me. I'll see if a week or two with it changes my mind.
I can say that if I bought the board and paid the $200-300 a Topre board commands, I know I'd have a Stockholm Syndrome type thing going on and would say I love it just because I paid that much for it. Just jumping into it, it's kind of an ambivalent feeling toward it that could easily swing one way or the other after enough time with it. I'm just trying to stay impartial and not let any early displeasure taint my overall impression of it.
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Thanks for the write up nubbs, maybe Topre isn't for me after all. I bottom out like crazy so this doesn't sound very appealing to me.
I think I'd find it hard to get off lubed clears, they just feel so perfect to me.
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I have the same experience as you do with the bottom out. I don't think I'm that heavy handed when I type but I do bottom out. The landing is too harsh for me and it really takes a toll on my hands.
Glad to know I'm not alone on that. I really want to like the switch, but right now the bottoming out is killing it for me. I'll see if a week or two with it changes my mind.
I can say that if I bought the board and paid the $200-300 a Topre board commands, I know I'd have a Stockholm Syndrome type thing going on and would say I love it just because I paid that much for it. Just jumping into it, it's kind of an ambivalent feeling toward it that could easily swing one way or the other after enough time with it. I'm just trying to stay impartial and not let any early displeasure taint my overall impression of it.
I say this all the time, it took me a long ass time to figure out how to not bottom out on Topre. It's really worth learning though.
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Interesting read. I've been wanting to get a Topre board for a bit, but it sounds like it might be to tactile for me. :-\
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topre > your life
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Interesting read. I've been wanting to get a Topre board for a bit, but it sounds like it might be to tactile for me. :-\
It's more tactile than Browns and, in a way, more tactile than Clears. I say in a way since it's a different kind of tactility. It's a little shorter of a tactile bump than Clears which makes it feel a little bigger even though it may actually be a smaller bump. It's a pleasant bump and usually quite smooth, but it's the bottoming out that gets to me.
I'd say you should definitely try it out before you discount it. Like I said, I'm trying to remain objective about it. I like to tease about it since it is just a fancy rubber dome (*gasp* Heresy!), but I can see how some people would love it. I'm making it my main home keyboard for a week or two to see if my opinion changes.
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It's more tactile than Browns and, in a way, more tactile than Clears. I say in a way since it's a different kind of tactility. It's a little shorter of a tactile bump than Clears which makes it feel a little bigger even though it may actually be a smaller bump. It's a pleasant bump and usually quite smooth, but it's the bottoming out that gets to me.
I'd say you should definitely try it out before you discount it. Like I said, I'm trying to remain objective about it. I like to tease about it since it is just a fancy rubber dome (*gasp* Heresy!), but I can see how some people would love it. I'm making it my main home keyboard for a week or two to see if my opinion changes.
I'll probably end up picking one up either way, just to give it a try. I tried them at keycon, but I didn't have all that long with them.
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Very interesting. I guess I like Topre because I'm always bottoming out no matter what switch I'm on so I might as well enjoy myself on the way there hahaha. :]
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It's more tactile than Browns and, in a way, more tactile than Clears. I say in a way since it's a different kind of tactility. It's a little shorter of a tactile bump than Clears which makes it feel a little bigger even though it may actually be a smaller bump. It's a pleasant bump and usually quite smooth, but it's the bottoming out that gets to me.
I'd say you should definitely try it out before you discount it. Like I said, I'm trying to remain objective about it. I like to tease about it since it is just a fancy rubber dome (*gasp* Heresy!), but I can see how some people would love it. I'm making it my main home keyboard for a week or two to see if my opinion changes.
I'll probably end up picking one up either way, just to give it a try. I tried them at keycon, but I didn't have all that long with them.
That's never a bad idea, worst case scenario you don't like it, they have very good resale value around here.
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I like to tease about it since it is just a fancy rubber dome (*gasp* Heresy!)
It's the fanciest rubber dome!
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I like to tease about it since it is just a fancy rubber dome (*gasp* Heresy!)
It's the fanciest rubber dome!
The Ultimate Rubber Dome keyboard :p
I like the landing. There's that resistance until it actuates, what, about 1/3 the way down, then the smooth descent all the way to the padded landing.
To me Topre bottoming out is much softer than MX or BS bottoming out.
And I bottom out all the time. Currently I am bottoming out on a Model M :))
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topre > your life
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn25/migmi/prince/amen.gif)
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topre > your life
(http://i.imgur.com/JtVQhRO.jpg)
Also, ****, WHY CAN I NEVER CLOSE BRACKETS PROPERLY WHEN RESPONDING TO YOU. GODDAMMIT DEMIK!
I like to tease about it since it is just a fancy rubber dome (*gasp* Heresy!)
It's the fanciest rubber dome!
The Ultimate Rubber Dome keyboard :p
I like the landing. There's that resistance until it actuates, what, about 1/3 the way down, then the smooth descent all the way to the padded landing.
To me Topre bottoming out is much softer than MX or BS bottoming out.
And I bottom out all the time. Currently I am bottoming out on a Model M :))
I don't usually bottom out since most of the switches I use have a higher point of actuation than Topre. The landing with Topre is far from padded though. I'm sure as I type more, I'll bottom out less, but it's hard not to with Topre since it's such a short throw after the tactile bump. With my Ghost Blacks and Ergo Clears, I rarely bottom out or bottom out hard. With Topre, it feels like I only bottom out so far.
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you're lucky i didn't catch it!
i haven't tried that fc board but, IMO, RF has the best feeling topre switches.
something about them makes them so smooth.
if only i can transfer that feeling to my hhkb, it would be GOAT.
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If the landing is what's bothering you, perhaps the 55g Topre will fit you since it's heavier.
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If the landing is what's bothering you, perhaps the 55g Topre will fit you since it's heavier.
^
45g seems like it would be more useful for someone who finds blues just right, not for something that uses ergoclears (assuming 62g)
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If the landing is what's bothering you, perhaps the 55g Topre will fit you since it's heavier.
I found 55g has a harsher bottom out. Requires a lot of force to break the dome, followed by little pushback. Stronger fingers = harsher bottom out.
@Nubbs I wouldn't do this with a borrowed board but I originally hated my 55g 87u, and now LOVE it after dental banding it.
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If the landing is what's bothering you, perhaps the 55g Topre will fit you since it's heavier.
I found 55g has a harsher bottom out. Requires a lot of force to break the dome, followed by little pushback. Stronger fingers = harsher bottom out.
@Nubbs I wouldn't do this with a borrowed board but I originally hated my 55g 87u, and now LOVE it after dental banding it.
Dental banding was a complete game changer for me. Honestly, the feeling was night and day. It might not fix your bottoming out problem, but the typing experience was a thousand times better for me.
Perhaps you can try landing pads? I didn't want to go that route because of the reduce key travel, but it might work for you.
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Well, like Defect said, it's not my keyboard, so there won't be any dental banding or lubing unless Hoffmanmyster wants it done.
I wonder if silencing it would really make that much difference for me though since most of my issues are on the actuation side, not the return.
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a dental band mod won't help that
is it 45g or 55g? if it's 55 you might want to try 45 instead, i know i like it a lot more.
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It's an FC660C, so it should be 45g.
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Nubbs,
You should give the hhkb a chance again as well even if you already have in the past. A 55g hhkb seems it would suit you better than the standard 45g
The case mount switches are not harsh on the bottom out. I'm guessing due to the plastic having more give than the plate mount
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I've never tried the HHKB, but would love to give my thoughts if someone lent me one.
Topre is slowly growing on me, but I still don't love it or get the "Topre is god" mindset at this point.
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Topre is slowly growing on me, but I still don't love it or get the "Topre is god" mindset at this point.
im the same
i like it but i like other things more
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The layout of the hhkb is a large factor in why I love the board so much. I love the "pop" of the tactility too
MX is naturally the tuners choice. I feel like topre offers a great experience out of the box. Both can be loved.
I enjoyed the break in period with the topre switches. More tactile at the beginning then slowly getting more buttery with use. Mmm
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Well, like Defect said, it's not my keyboard, so there won't be any dental banding or lubing unless Hoffmanmyster wants it done.
I wonder if silencing it would really make that much difference for me though since most of my issues are on the actuation side, not the return.
Yes, you're right my mistake. In that case, landing pads wouldn't help either. I had it mixed up in my head that the landing pad mod was different than the dental band mod but it's essentially a similar silencing mod that only affects the return. I don't think there's a mod in existence that can actually soften the landing on a Topre switch.
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I've never tried the HHKB, but would love to give my thoughts if someone lent me one.
Topre is slowly growing on me, but I still don't love it or get the "Topre is god" mindset at this point.
How do you live life being so wrong?
Topre is love.
HHKB is life.
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Well, like Defect said, it's not my keyboard, so there won't be any dental banding or lubing unless Hoffmanmyster wants it done.
I wonder if silencing it would really make that much difference for me though since most of my issues are on the actuation side, not the return.
Not sure if a FC660C would behave the same way as a Realforce 87u, but my dental bands caused my domes to sit in a "semi-actuated" position.
This made my 55g domes less "tactile" (I don't like the word tactile for any RD) and more linear with shorter travel.
It still wasn't entirely linear after the dental band + lube. Hard to describe, just feels good, and I really like the reduced travel-to-actuation. I suppose you could try to simulate this feeling by hover-typing on your FC660 and not releasing the dome all the way.
Unmodded 55g Topre was terrible for me. With mod, I still prefer MX/ALPS, but now I can actually leave my 87u at work now knowing I have a nice smooth board to hammer away at. Topre is a very smooth switch, and I wish MX boards could find a way to benefit from Topre Sliders.
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I have the same experience as you do with the bottom out. I don't think I'm that heavy handed when I type but I do bottom out. The landing is too harsh for me and it really takes a toll on my hands.
Glad to know I'm not alone on that. I really want to like the switch, but right now the bottoming out is killing it for me. I'll see if a week or two with it changes my mind.
I can say that if I bought the board and paid the $200-300 a Topre board commands, I know I'd have a Stockholm Syndrome type thing going on and would say I love it just because I paid that much for it. Just jumping into it, it's kind of an ambivalent feeling toward it that could easily swing one way or the other after enough time with it. I'm just trying to stay impartial and not let any early displeasure taint my overall impression of it.
You really need to try a Dorkvader Pingmaster. Ask him for one. Its much cheaper than a Topre.
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You really need to try a Dorkvader Pingmaster. Ask him for one. Its much cheaper than a Topre.
What board is that?
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I've never tried the HHKB, but would love to give my thoughts if someone lent me one.
Topre is slowly growing on me, but I still don't love it or get the "Topre is god" mindset at this point.
I never tried a FC660c, but have a HHKB that I bought before the Leo came out. To me the HHKB is not harsh at all but I'm no speed typist or heavy. Maybe the HHKB with its case mounted switch housings (plastic vs metal plate) have a softer landing? When I found out I love the feel of Topre and wanted another the Leo had just came out but I chose the Realforce 87UB55g TKL instead. I was worried that 55g might be too heavy but was surprised it wasn't. The 55g felt crisp or some say poppy. When I get past the tactile actuation point it seems to rebound faster without harsh bottoming out with the stiffer domes. But I also been using and liking some MX 65g lubed clears here and there lately.
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The more and more I use the board, the more ambivalent I find myself with Topre.
Topre is perfect after I've had a couple of beers. It just feels nice when I've had those couple of drinks, but then when I use it in normal usage, I find myself thinking that it's nice and totally unpleasant at the same time. Maybe at the end of two weeks, I'll have grown attached to it, but so far, I really just can't see myself joining the Toprites in singing its praises.
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I had a FC660c that I just sold, and the feel was fine, but it wasn't that amazing. The 45g of the 660c vs the 45 of the hhkb is way different. Like others have said, the bottoming out feel isn't as abrupt and some reason it actually feels softer.
i remember telling CPT that my fingers would hurt when I started using the 660c due to the weird bottoming out sensation of the board. Has never happened for hhkb, then again, I may have just gotten used to typing on a topre board.
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The more and more I use the board, the more ambivalent I find myself with Topre.
Topre is perfect after I've had a couple of beers. It just feels nice when I've had those couple of drinks, but then when I use it in normal usage, I find myself thinking that it's nice and totally unpleasant at the same time. Maybe at the end of two weeks, I'll have grown attached to it, but so far, I really just can't see myself joining the Toprites in singing its praises.
hey nubs, don't sweat over this? After all it is a matter of personal taste.
Now that you have a Topre board, you can do some measurement and, you know, create us some Topre Dolly, please, pretty please?
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create us some Topre Dolly, please, pretty please?
Yes please :D
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You really need to try a Dorkvader Pingmaster. Ask him for one. Its much cheaper than a Topre.
What board is that?
just ask the man, heh
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I've had a HHKB Pro 2 for about a month now and I'm not completely sold on Topre switches.
I've heard nothing but praise for them. I'm actually typing on it right now. It feels nice, then again, not really. Ambivalence is the right way to describe my feeling towards them.
I completely agree with your assessment in that it's the bottoming out that bothers me. I'm going to keep working on it to come up with a better assessment for myself.
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I don't know what it is about Topre. Put a beer or two in me and it's fantastic. It's literally one of the best feeling switches I've ever used. Maybe I bottom out less, maybe the feeling isn't as noticeable, but put a beer or two in me and I love Topre.
Without any alcohol in me, Topre is increasingly becoming terrible feeling to me. It's just this weird combo of crisp mushiness, where you have the disgusting mushy feeling of a rubber dome couple with a ridiculously sharp tactility. It's wonderful and terrible at the same time.
At this point, I'm thinking that if I was a permadrunk or just a light, speedy typist, I could easily become a Toprite; however, given my slightly heavier typing style and the fact that I only type in the 60-75WPM range, it's really not the switch for me. I'll come to a final conclusion sometime next week, but, as objective as I'm trying to remain, it's really hard to not start making conclusions on my feelings toward Topre.
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I don't know what it is about Topre. Put a beer or two in me and it's fantastic. It's literally one of the best feeling switches I've ever used. Maybe I bottom out less, maybe the feeling isn't as noticeable, but put a beer or two in me and I love Topre.
Without any alcohol in me, Topre is increasingly becoming terrible feeling to me. It's just this weird combo of crisp mushiness, where you have the disgusting mushy feeling of a rubber dome couple with a ridiculously sharp tactility. It's wonderful and terrible at the same time.
At this point, I'm thinking that if I was a permadrunk or just a light, speedy typist, I could easily become a Toprite; however, given my slightly heavier typing style and the fact that I only type in the 60-75WPM range, it's really not the switch for me. I'll come to a final conclusion sometime next week, but, as objective as I'm trying to remain, it's really hard to not start making conclusions on my feelings toward Topre.
I'll send you my type-s to try if you'd like. I don't have much time to use it anway
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If you think it's a better representation of Topre than the FC660, I'll gladly take it for a spin for a little while. I really am trying to like Topre and am giving my honest feedback on it, I just know everyone has their own tastes and preferences. I may just be one of those people who Topre isn't for.
Edit: Based on the JDL Topre board I also have thanks to jalaj, I can say that if you are one of those people who loves light switches like MX Reds, I could see how some of the lighter Topre switches could definitely be for you.
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I think the HHKB is miles ahead of the FC660C. It felt slightly more stiff and tactile to me. I can't guarantee that you'll like it if you're not a fan of the FC660C, but it's worth a try for sure. Note that my experience with the FC660C was with one of the early boards; I believe Intelli78's test showed that the newer FC660Cs actually have consistently heavier key weights than the older ones.
The layout is awesome if you can get used to it, too.
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If you think it's a better representation of Topre than the FC660, I'll gladly take it for a spin for a little while. I really am trying to like Topre and am giving my honest feedback on it, I just know everyone has their own tastes and preferences. I may just be one of those people who Topre isn't for.
Edit: Based on the JDL Topre board I also have thanks to jalaj, I can say that if you are one of those people who loves light switches like MX Reds, I could see how some of the lighter Topre switches could definitely be for you.
Oh, hmm yes the type s keys are pretty light. It may actually feel lighter than the 660c, you will see, haha.
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It's ridiculous how wildly my feelings about Topre vacillate. I found myself typing on them a little softer today and thinking, hey, these are actually kind of nice...if I didn't make so many damn errors while typing with them. It's like I have to think more when I type with Topre. I find myself messing up more easily because of the weird point of actuation is almost at the bottoming out point thing. It's like the rebound of the switches throw my fingers onto the wrong key when I'm typing. The rebound and everything makes it almost like typing on a hybrid trampoline bounce house where you get some crisp snappiness, but also some weird slightly rubbery and mushy rebound.
So far the best way of summarizing Topre from my perspective is that Topre just is. It's not exactly good, but it's not bad either. It just is. I can see why it's such a divisive switch and why some love it and some hate it.
Maybe using the HHKB Type S will change my tune and make me a convert.
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Topre is perfect after I've had a couple of beers. It just feels nice when I've had those couple of drinks, but then when I use it in normal usage, I find myself thinking that it's nice and totally unpleasant at the same time.
so you're saying Demik is perma-drunk? :))
It's ridiculous how wildly my feelings about Topre vacillate. I found myself typing on them a little softer today and thinking, hey, these are actually kind of nice...if I didn't make so many damn errors while typing with them. It's like I have to think more when I type with Topre. I find myself messing up more easily because of the weird point of actuation is almost at the bottoming out point thing. It's like the rebound of the switches throw my fingers onto the wrong key when I'm typing. The rebound and everything makes it almost like typing on a hybrid trampoline bounce house where you get some crisp snappiness, but also some weird slightly rubbery and mushy rebound.
So far the best way of summarizing Topre from my perspective is that Topre just is. It's not exactly good, but it's not bad either. It just is. I can see why it's such a divisive switch and why some love it and some hate it.
Maybe using the HHKB Type S will change my tune and make me a convert.
you should really try 55g if you're making lots of typo's, think 45g's might be too light for you.
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so you're saying Demik is perma-drunk? :))
Nah, he gave up the booze.
you should really try 55g if you're making lots of typo's, think 45g's might be too light for you.
It could be, but I can't tell if it's the springiness or the weight that's making me make the errors. And sometimes I have errors galore and others I have very few.
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It's ridiculous how wildly my feelings about Topre vacillate. I found myself typing on them a little softer today and thinking, hey, these are actually kind of nice...if I didn't make so many damn errors while typing with them. It's like I have to think more when I type with Topre. I find myself messing up more easily because of the weird point of actuation is almost at the bottoming out point thing. It's like the rebound of the switches throw my fingers onto the wrong key when I'm typing. The rebound and everything makes it almost like typing on a hybrid trampoline bounce house where you get some crisp snappiness, but also some weird slightly rubbery and mushy rebound.
Up until the landing, I could see myself growing to love Topre, but the landing so far is killing Topre for me. I've always been a heavier typist. I don't bang the keys around and thud them bottoming out, but I'm also terrible at floating them to just past the point of actuation without bottoming out. Topre switches feel like I have to bottom them out and that bottoming out comes so quickly and so severely that I'm beginning to think that it may be a deal breaker for me. It's just such a heavy and unpleasant landing that it ruins all the niceness of the switch leading up to the bottoming out.
Are you me?? Your experience is exactly like mine with Topre. I couldn't adjust my typing style to fit the switches and the pains that I'd get from the bottom outs led me to stop trying Topre boards. I was trying them on and off for a long time before realizing they weren't for me. In the end, I really don't care for anything that hurts to type on.
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I finally got to try typing on a 55g Topre board (mkawa’s), and unfortunately I don’t like it any better than the 45g or variable weighted Topre boards I’ve tried. They’re alright, smooth and solid, but totally uninspiring. The 55g is a bit too stiff I think, while the 45g definitely feels a bit mushy. I don’t think the buckling rubber + spring design is ever going to work for me, however it’s tweaked.
For me, there’s something very satisfying (and helpful to my fingers) about a crisp well defined tactile point that I don’t get from Topre switches. I’m not huge on linear switches but very smooth ones of exactly the right stiffness are also okay.
I can see how other folks would like them though.
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I just got a HHKB Type S in the mail from slickmamba to try out for a little while. I can tell that the layout will take quite a bit of getting used to before I feel comfortable with it. The layout is just such a dramatic difference from what I'm used to using.
So far, I already notice two things about the keyboard. First, the HHKB feels much better than the FC660C. I don't know if it's the weight of the domes, if it's easier to hit that point where you actuate without bottoming out hard, or what, but the HHKB does feel much better than the FC660C. I can see Topre growing on me. It's still from the god status that some people give it around here, but it certainly is not bad at all.
Second, the actuation isn't as smooth as the FC660C. I don't know if it just needs some lube or if the HHKB is different in some important way, but there is noticeable friction when typing with it. Not an unpleasant friction, per say, but definitely present. I'll keep typing with this for a little while to see if I can get used to the layout and to the feel of the keyboard.
I can definitely see why some people absolutely love the HHKB, but it is not love at first sight for me; however, it does bring me closer to an appreciation of Topre than the FC660C did.
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Type S - does this one whistle? Apparently quite a few of them do, and it is a known issue with no official remedy.
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Second, the actuation isn't as smooth as the FC660C. I don't know if it just needs some lube or if the HHKB is different in some important way, but there is noticeable friction when typing with it. Not an unpleasant friction, per say, but definitely present.
I also noticed this when I got my Type-S. The regular HHKB doesn't do that. Not really sure why, as I thought that the Type-S only added the silencing pads.
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:popcorn:
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Type S - does this one whistle? Apparently quite a few of them do, and it is a known issue with no official remedy.
If you type really quickly and listen closely, you can hear a faint whistle/whoosh/fart, but if it bugs you, you're likely one of those people who would be bothered by someone scratching an itch, coughing, or making whatever other small benign noise. That's a design issue with Topre though. If you have a dome that needs to be compressed, of course you're going to create some noise when you press the dome since the air in it needs to go somewhere. Unless they had some massive holes in the PCB, bigger channels in the domes, or something else, where the air can quickly move with minimal pressure, you're going to be making noise. It's a silly thing to complain about unless it sounds like you're walking on whoopie cushions.
That's my Topre rant. It's like getting mad at a buckling spring keyboard for pinging or an Alps keyboard for wobbling. It's one of the little quirks of the mechanism that you should get used to and come to appreciate as being its unique little quirk.
The thing I can't get past though is the friction in the depression of the switches. After the FC660C, I was expecting a much smoother actuation.
Second, the actuation isn't as smooth as the FC660C. I don't know if it just needs some lube or if the HHKB is different in some important way, but there is noticeable friction when typing with it. Not an unpleasant friction, per say, but definitely present.
I also noticed this when I got my Type-S. The regular HHKB doesn't do that. Not really sure why, as I thought that the Type-S only added the silencing pads.
Good to know that I'm not alone in noticing that. It would be weird if it was just this keyboard.
Oh, and I just noticed, the Z and X caps got swapped on the keyboard. I wonder if any others are in the wrong place....maybe some of the blank ones...
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The landing pads are restricting the air path in the housings just enough to create some noise as the air is pushed through the housings in the type-s
My long shot guess
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I could hear the whoosing noise when I use the MX Black. It's like pumping a bicycle pump and it's very obvious to me, the sound I mean. I guess that is how linear switch is. But on the normal HHKB or the RealForce 55g, I didn't hear this. I agree though that it is not irritating at all in the MX Black. I enjoy the thocking sound of the HHKB a lot more!
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The HHKB is slowly growing on me. It still feels a little too light and the layout is weird as hell, but I find myself tolerating it when I'm using it normally and actually liking it when I've got a beer or two in me. I'm going to sound like an alcoholic (even though I usually only have a beer or two on Friday and Saturday), but I just find it a pleasant board to use after a beer or two. It's not winning me over sober as a Mormon, but put a little Trappist monk in me, and I find myself enjoying it.
If it weren't for the ridiculously high price coupled with the fact that my money right now is going to student loans, a car payment, and a new laptop, I might be inclined to pick up a HHKB and do a silence mod and some lubing myself. I don't think I could ever become a Toprite preaching the supremacy of Topre, but I could definitely see myself appreciating it....even if it is just a nicer, glorified rubber dome. And before you take that as me bashing Topre, I have used some rubber domes in the past that were pleasant to use. It's just unfortunate that most rubber domes (and scissor switches for that matter) are utter ****.
So I'm slowly having my mind changed about Topre. I definitely get it now. Whether or not I get the fanaticism is something else, but I definitely get why people like Topre. But damn, that price. It's just too damn high for me for a nice HHKB, especially when I can get a Model M and F AT for under $100 for the pair, an Alps board in an aluminum case for the same price as an HHKB, or get to have some ridiculous and huge levels of customizability with the LEGO of the mech world, MX, for the same price.
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light as in, the case feel or the switches?
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light as in, the case feel or the switches?
The switches. The case is light, but not unpleasantly so since it does seem to stay in place without any real issue and it doesn't bounce around with a lot of flex like a Chicony case. I'm just used to heavier switches due to my fat sausage fingers (they aren't really, but I like to be self-denigrating sometimes).
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The more I use the HHKB, the more I find myself not minding Topre. It is a far cry from the god switch people make it out to be and it is a quirky layout that takes a ton of getting used to (I still can't find my delete key, something I use a lot), but I definitely see why people like it. The domes are fairly crisp, though I still feel a little rubberiness in them, and they provide a light throw with a heavy tactile bump you just don't see in any other switch. Topre has grown on me from the almost hate I was starting to feel for it on the FC660C.
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The more I use the HHKB, the more I find myself not minding Topre. It is a far cry from the god switch people make it out to be and it is a quirky layout that takes a ton of getting used to (I still can't find my delete key, something I use a lot), but I definitely see why people like it. The domes are fairly crisp, though I still feel a little rubberiness in them, and they provide a light throw with a heavy tactile bump you just don't see in any other switch. Topre has grown on me from the almost hate I was starting to feel for it on the FC660C.
I wonder if you would feel the same way if you were to switch back to the FC660C.
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I give the FC660C a tap every now and then and I just don't like it.
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Interesting. My first Topre was a FC660C, but I put it aside because I didn't like the keycaps, and the layout wasn't quite what I was looking for.
Many keyboards later, I finally got a HHKB Pro 2; I liked this much better than the FC660C, primarily because of the form factor and great layout.
Recently, I decided to try a RF 87u 55g. I really like it, but for the first time in my life, I developed wrist pain after using this board. Although the problem might be due to the heavier 55g switch, I attribute it to the hard landing with the plate-mounted Topre switches. The HHKB Pro 2 has case-mounted switches, providing a more yielding landing when bottoming out.
Having started with IBM buckling spring switches, which I still use in my keyboard rotations, I tend to bottom out with every keystroke on any keyboard that I use.
Now that I am paying more attention to proper typing posture (keeping my wrists elevated and straight while typing), the pain has subsided, and I am enjoying the RF 87u more and more. Although I prefer the 60% form factor and layout of the HHKB, the RF feels like a higher-quality product.
Within the last few days, I have tried the CM Novatouch with 45g Topre switches equipped with Cherry mx stems. It is somewhat too light for me, and I prefer the typing experience of the RF 87u 55g or the HHKB Pro 2, even though the latter board also has 45g Topre switches. Here again, the RF sounds and feels like a higher-quality product to me.
I understand what you are saying about the abrupt landing with plate-mounted Topre switches, such as found in the FC660C and the RF 87u. However, I didn't notice this effect with the CM Novatouch. The greatest contrast is found with the HHKB Pro 2; I think that its case-mounted switches are much more yielding, providing a cushioning effect when bottoming out.
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Any updates?
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Any updates?
One is coming tonight. It is growing on me though.
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;D
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Any updates?
One is coming tonight. It is growing on me though.
I hope it's not from peer pressure, he he.
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Any updates?
One is coming tonight. It is growing on me though.
I hope it's not from peer pressure, he he.
It isn't. As others have said, it really is a learning to type on it thing. Topre is great if you can start to type without hitting the bottom or hitting it as hard. It's something I still have an issue with since I always have typed that way, but I can see why people like it. I still can't say it's my favorite since the HHKB definitely has more friction in the slide than my lubed MX switches and some sexy vintage Alps switches, but it is still a nice feel.
I guess the best way to put it is that I'm finally starting to get Topre. It still is not the end all be all that some make it out to be, but I do get it and I definitely and coming around to liking it. I'm not at loving it (yet?), but I have found that I like and enjoy it now whereas it was unpleasant to me before.
More and more the HHKB is looking to be a board that I'd like to have, if just for travel or just to use for a month or two here and there since I tend to swap between boards. I just cannot get past the price tag. At $260+tax+shipping, I'm looking at a Korean board with an Aluminum case. I had a hard time buying my Kingsaver, and that was with Alps, switches I love to play around with.
So far, my stance on Topre is this: if you have the money to spend and can afford a couple of expensive boards, make the HHKB or a Realforce one of them. It provides a different and interesting experience than you can get with Alps and MX. You just can't find the force curve and the tactility anywhere else. On the other hand, if you've got $300 to drop, and then you're tapped out for a while, I really have to say go elsewhere. That money gives you an MX board, an Alps board, and a Buckling Spring board and gives you money left over for caps, springs, lube, custom cables, and so many more means of customization.
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More and more the HHKB is looking to be a board that I'd like to have, if just for travel or just to use for a month or two here and there since I tend to swap between boards. I just cannot get past the price tag. At $260+tax+shipping, I'm looking at a Korean board with an Aluminum case. I had a hard time buying my Kingsaver, and that was with Alps, switches I love to play around with.
So far, my stance on Topre is this: if you have the money to spend and can afford a couple of expensive boards, make the HHKB or a Realforce one of them. It provides a different and interesting experience than you can get with Alps and MX. You just can't find the force curve and the tactility anywhere else. On the other hand, if you've got $300 to drop, and then you're tapped out for a while, I really have to say go elsewhere. That money gives you an MX board, an Alps board, and a Buckling Spring board and gives you money left over for caps, springs, lube, custom cables, and so many more means of customization.
You just explained my own thoughts on this to me because I couldn't put it into words. :rolleyes: I've been going back and forth on getting an HHKB forever but I just can't justify the cost. The lack of caps is also a bit of a turn off. At the moment, I guess I'd just rather get another Korean board than an HHKB.
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I've been going back and forth on getting an HHKB forever but I just can't justify the cost. The lack of caps is also a bit of a turn off. At the moment, I guess I'd just rather get another Korean board than an HHKB.
Smart choice, a Korean will always satisfy your deepest cravings no matter what it is ;) .
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I think I've reached the point where I want a HHKB. I wouldn't say I've been converted, but I also have to say that I am no longer the skeptic I was. Something about the FC660C was turning me off to Topre while the HHKB makes it nice.
I guess the closest comparison would be unlubed Ergo Clears with 45g springs vs lubed Ergo Clears in the 55-67g range. The prior on just feels gross, bottoms out hard, doesn't have a pleasant feel return, and so on. The lubed heavier spring Ergo Clears, however, feel great and provide a proper experience of what Ergo Clears can be.
I still think a stiffer, longer throw switch is ideal for me, but the HHKB has definitely grown on me. It's just that damn price tag. I may have to see what I can sell off to justify the price. $290, even $190 with a generous offer Epzy made to me, is still just too much right now. I'd have to get rid of some other stuff I don't use to justify it. I may have to say goodbye to my Qazpad and my CCnG set.
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I'm glad you like it. I started my Topre journey on the HHKB and I'm glad that was my starting point. Have not tried a FC660C until today, likely won't after reading your impression. Make more Dollies :) :)
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Interesting... I never thought that about it being the plate that caused the wrist pain, which is something that I've been developing whenever I use my 87U 55g or FC660C and keeps me coming back to Clears.
Personally I think that the HHKB is the best feeling and sounding keyboard ever made. But unfortunately the layout is a complete deal breaker. Swapping backslash and backspace is something my hands just can't do without screaming in agony.
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Interesting... I never thought that about it being the plate that caused the wrist pain, which is something that I've been developing whenever I use my 87U 55g or FC660C and keeps me coming back to Clears.
Personally I think that the HHKB is the best feeling and sounding keyboard ever made. But unfortunately the layout is a complete deal breaker. Swapping backslash and backspace is something my hands just can't do without screaming in agony.
I actually like the backspace location. It's the tiny Alt with massive Winkey and the Ctrl location that gets to me. I'm not sure how the one I'm using is set up, but the lack of a Delete key is suboptimal for me since I tend to shift+delete stuff instead of sending it to the trash can.
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WOOO! Hope my board had something to do with your choice :) Can't wait to welcome you to the club.
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After trying many different form factors, layouts, and switch types, I kept getting recommendations to try the HHKB Pro 2, but I kept putting it off, thinking I surely could not adapt to the seemingly alien layout and lack of dedicated arrow keys. When I finally got around to trying the HHKB, I was amazed at my instant liking for it and how quickly I adapted to the layout and having the arrow keys in the Fn layer. Now I find that the HHKB layout is the best possible one for me, and I remap all my other keyboards to the HHKB layout to the extent that I can.
I like the downstsroke "thock" of the HHKB, but I don't like the return stroke "clack". I also think I would prefer a heavier-weight switch. Therefore, I am considering getting a Type-S HHKB and swapping out the 45g domes for 55g domes from a RF board.
Typing on a RF 87u 55g now, I prefer the heavier switch and more solid sound of the plate-mounted Topres (as opposed to case-mounted switches in the HHKB). I can get the heavier switch in my HHKB with a dome swap, but the plate-mounted switches will have to wait until PFU decides to make a HHKB Pro 3 with plate-mounted switches (I doubt that this will ever occur, but who knows?).
One last thing on modding Topre-switch boards. If I start the dome transplant with a Type-S, these are only available in white, and I prefer a black case, but with white alphas and black mods. Apparently, switching HHKB cases requires popping the switches out of one case and popping them into the other. It seems that this could incur some risk of damaging the switches and/or the case. Any pointers on doing this non-destructively would be most welcome!
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Interesting... I never thought that about it being the plate that caused the wrist pain, which is something that I've been developing whenever I use my 87U 55g or FC660C and keeps me coming back to Clears.
Personally I think that the HHKB is the best feeling and sounding keyboard ever made. But unfortunately the layout is a complete deal breaker. Swapping backslash and backspace is something my hands just can't do without screaming in agony.
I actually like the backspace location. It's the tiny Alt with massive Winkey and the Ctrl location that gets to me. I'm not sure how the one I'm using is set up, but the lack of a Delete key is suboptimal for me since I tend to shift+delete stuff instead of sending it to the trash can.
There's a dip switch that lets you swap alt & win key. It'd drive me crazy if I had to use the standard alt placement.
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It happened, I'm a convert. Not to Topre on the whole since there are many that I just don't like the feel of either because they have a horrible bottom out feeling, you can actuate them by sneezing on them, or whatever else. I have found myself truly enjoying the HHKB. I still love Alps and MX, but Topre now has carved out a niche in my heart. Though it has a funky as hell layout, something about it just feels right. Yeah, you can feel a slight rubber mush (if you deny it, you have some rose colored glasses on) and it takes some getting used to the feel, but once you do, it's just a fun keyboard. It's like getting back on a trampoline when you're in your late twenties and haven't been on one in years. At first you find it obnoxious and not fun, then you get used to it and you start having a blast. I don't see it ever becoming my favorite, but I can now say that it is fun.
And, heresy bomb incoming, yes, it's still just a fancy rubber dome to me, but a damn good one. Do I think it's worth the premium? Not really since I have used older 80s boards that felt good and were rubber domes, but it is definitely worth it if you have the money. Hence why I have a WTB thread going.
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I give the FC660C a tap every now and then and I just don't like it.
I'm glad you're still showing it at least a little but of love. :)
the lack of a Delete key is suboptimal for me since I tend to shift+delete stuff instead of sending it to the trash can.
This right here is my only gripe with the HHKB layout.
It happened, I'm a convert.
Welcome to enlightenment!! Hopefully you can love all the switches equally and no longer despise the cupped rubber. :D
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If you haven't seen it, I've started a Topre poll -- you might want to visit it and register your vote for your favorite Topre-switch keyboard:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=62923.msg1474738#msg1474738
My own top vote goes to the RF 87u 55g for its (to me) supreme sound and feel, but I also love the HHKB Pro 2 for its form factor and superb layout.
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Delete is on Fn+`. I use Shift+Delete often, and it's not hard to hold Shift and Fn down when pressing the button.
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Disabling the recycle bin allows the delete key to function as shift+delete in winderz
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Disabling the recycle bin allows the delete key to function as shift+delete in winderz
I think that's a little too far. I use Delete a lot on it's own, so it would open up the opportunity of accidentally deleting items...
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Delete is on Fn+`. I use Shift+Delete often, and it's not hard to hold Shift and Fn down when pressing the button.
I've always found this to be a really awkward position, but maybe that's just me. I am strongly considering teensy modding my HHKB and making the upper right key be delete on the regular layer.
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It is all subjective of course. I think Topre feel nice. Personally I prefer them to the Cherry MX switches. And even if I would not, I would likely still use them since the Cherry MX are entirely too noisy for home or office use (for me).
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Delete is on Fn+`. I use Shift+Delete often, and it's not hard to hold Shift and Fn down when pressing the button.
It must be the way the one I'm using is set up then since that Fn combo doesn't work for me.
It is all subjective of course. I think Topre feel nice. Personally I prefer them to the Cherry MX switches. And even if I would not, I would likely still use them since the Cherry MX are entirely too noisy for home or office use (for me).
I don't know if I prefer one switch over another at this point. There are days I love the feel of my Model F, days I love my Orange Alps or other Alps switches, and days I love my Ergo Clears and Ghost Blacks.
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Is dipswitch 3 up or down on the board?
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Is dipswitch 3 up or down on the board?
I'll check later. I don't want to mess up slickmamba's set up though.
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It happened, I'm a convert. Not to Topre on the whole since there are many that I just don't like the feel of either because they have a horrible bottom out feeling, you can actuate them by sneezing on them, or whatever else. I have found myself truly enjoying the HHKB. I still love Alps and MX, but Topre now has carved out a niche in my heart. Though it has a funky as hell layout, something about it just feels right. Yeah, you can feel a slight rubber mush (if you deny it, you have some rose colored glasses on) and it takes some getting used to the feel, but once you do, it's just a fun keyboard. It's like getting back on a trampoline when you're in your late twenties and haven't been on one in years. At first you find it obnoxious and not fun, then you get used to it and you start having a blast. I don't see it ever becoming my favorite, but I can now say that it is fun.
And, heresy bomb incoming, yes, it's still just a fancy rubber dome to me, but a damn good one. Do I think it's worth the premium? Not really since I have used older 80s boards that felt good and were rubber domes, but it is definitely worth it if you have the money. Hence why I have a WTB thread going.
Exactly man, I thought I had to choose before. Topre or MX. I realized that I can enjoy all switches. Ive got a nice MX collection going. Got me some Buckling Spring. Now a couple Topre once again. I just need to get an ALPs some day. :cool:
On my JP, I did dip 2 I believe. It swaps control to caps. Left fn to control. It's perfect.
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Is dipswitch 3 up or down on the board?
I'll check later. I don't want to mess up slickmamba's set up though.
oh do what you want, I can always move it back. I have it setup for a mac right now