Author Topic: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint (Read 378985 times)

itlnstln · « **Reply #500 on:** Wed, 13 January 2010, 07:00:13 »

Congrats, Sofa King. We may even see a few new members because of it.

didjamatic · « **Reply #501 on:** Wed, 13 January 2010, 07:07:31 »

Commented on engadget

quadibloc · « **Reply #502 on:** Wed, 13 January 2010, 10:15:04 »

Quote from: Karl;144705

Does the Controller GETT TKC-8000-USB-PS/2 really cost € 50 ?

I found another programmable one for less than $ 12 :
SK5101 - Low Cost USB/PS2 Programmable FlexMatrix Industrial Keyboard Encoder
http://www.sprintek.com/products/SK5100.aspx
http://www.sprintek.com/order/OrderICs.aspx

The Software for Programming the Chip is free:
http://www.sprintek.com/support/Downloads.aspx

Just what I could use for my eventual ambition of doing a project.

I'm certainly happy to hear that the HHKB is going to get some competition.

My surface impression, though, is that the design does have a flaw. At first I didn't see a good way to fix one of the "flaws" I saw - the lack of cursor keys - but on reflection that's just a valid design decision. The other flaw - which seems to me to be a real flaw - does seem to be easily correctable, though.

If you abolish the Windows Shift keys, so that you have paired Fn keys to get at the extra key layer, then if you try to put Windows Shift in the other layer, how do you shift anything with it?

(I'm probably misunderstanding things here, and the Windows Menu key was only used in the mock-up so that the two Fn keys could look alike, even if I didn't see a specific mention of that, though.)

Since the Windows Menu key is left in the design, though, there's an obvious fix for that: make it a Windows Shift key instead. (Give it the code for the left one instead of the right one, even though it's on the right.) Putting Windows Menu in the second layer is not a problem, since that's not a shift key. (The fact that lots of keyboards these days only have one Windows Shift key means that you should be able to get away with just one without any software incompatibilities.)

Leaving out the cursor keys, unlike the HHKB Lite, is a design decision, and with two shift keys for the second layer, this shouldn't be a big deal - so the win of having full-sized keys and no funny changes to the standard main typing area layout is worth it.

Someone could also argue with moving the Alt keys, but that does help to avoid your Fn keys from being confused with Windows Shift keys, and it makes sense, too, that they should be in the higher-priority position that Alt has versus Windows Shift, since the second layer will be needed.

Quote from: wellington1869;97493

Btw lowpo - if your keyboard's firmware/layout is that easily re-programmable, that has got to be THE most major selling point and feature of this keyboard (aside from its killer looks).

Seconded. And the ability to program keys in by scancode, not just by name, is essential as well - because being able to shuffle around the second layer to taste is nice, but the ability to get at keys not in the basic set is even more important. So don't drop that feature in attempting to make it more usable by the general consumer!

EDIT: I see by the web site that in addition to scan code FF for the Fn key, you are planning to have a third layer. One important feature this brings to mind (which you've probably already thought of, of course) is this: instead of only being able to define a key as "2nd layer shift" or "3rd layer shift", it would be very handy to be able to define keys as "Layer shift" and "Use 2nd layer for layer shift", "Use 3rd layer for layer shift". That way, you can use the two swirl keys to switch to a selected additional layer, and use a key on the higher layer to toggle between what that layer is, without having to dedicate more layer shift keys on the first layer.

lowpoly · « **Reply #503 on:** Wed, 13 January 2010, 15:15:10 »

Thanks to anyone who wrote comments on the blogs. I loved reading them, especially on Yanko Design. ;-)

Quote from: spolia optima;150454

Will this board be easy to clean, and serivce if necessary? I ask because this product would fare well when combined with a long-term warrantee.

I've cleaned a lot of keyboards. The pcb/switch area is always the hardest. It usually does not look 'like new' afterwards.

Quote from: spolia optima;150454

Business professionals in particular would be attracted to a free 'test drive'. There are tons of professionals out there who make 100K+ salaries, but type on a junky keyboard all day. This isn't the best example, but remember the Orek vacuum cleaners? They've always had the reputation of being a very high-priced vaccum, but people tend to keep them after they've experienced the test. Keyboards, like vacuums, are everyday machines that we assume are mostly identical. It's hard to sell a quality vacuum without first demonstrating its value to the consumer.

Webwit posted a very realistic scenario for a product like this, and much of it can't be avoided. Responses to the public reaction should be planned ahead of time, as they often are.

My own view is that their should be a top-of-the-line version targeted to the very wealthy. The top-end model should be made with the absolute best materials available (new, high-tech plastics etc); it should also come with a lifetime warrantee and a bevy of overpriced accessories/options. Fact is, there are a lot of people sitting at $12,000 rosewood desks, in $3000 ergonomic chairs, typing on $20 rubber dome keyboards. Convince them that your product will increase their productivity, send them a free demonstration model with matching wristrest and, i don't know, italian leather spacebar or something- you could sell one to half the business owners in the country.

Not sure about the free test drive but you are absolutely right about keyboards not being available as luxury gadgets. Welly mentioned this as well. But this is not the right keyboard for the target group you describe. Most of them only write a couple of emails per day. And they use Excel.

Quote from: quadibloc;150505

Just what I could use for my eventual ambition of doing a project.

I'm certainly happy to hear that the HHKB is going to get some competition.

My surface impression, though, is that the design does have a flaw. At first I didn't see a good way to fix one of the "flaws" I saw - the lack of cursor keys - but on reflection that's just a valid design decision. The other flaw - which seems to me to be a real flaw - does seem to be easily correctable, though.

If you abolish the Windows Shift keys, so that you have paired Fn keys to get at the extra key layer, then if you try to put Windows Shift in the other layer, how do you shift anything with it?

(I'm probably misunderstanding things here, and the Windows Menu key was only used in the mock-up so that the two Fn keys could look alike, even if I didn't see a specific mention of that, though.)

Since the Windows Menu key is left in the design, though, there's an obvious fix for that: make it a Windows Shift key instead. (Give it the code for the left one instead of the right one, even though it's on the right.) Putting Windows Menu in the second layer is not a problem, since that's not a shift key. (The fact that lots of keyboards these days only have one Windows Shift key means that you should be able to get away with just one without any software incompatibilities.)

Leaving out the cursor keys, unlike the HHKB Lite, is a design decision, and with two shift keys for the second layer, this shouldn't be a big deal - so the win of having full-sized keys and no funny changes to the standard main typing area layout is worth it.

Someone could also argue with moving the Alt keys, but that does help to avoid your Fn keys from being confused with Windows Shift keys, and it makes sense, too, that they should be in the higher-priority position that Alt has versus Windows Shift, since the second layer will be needed.

Seconded. And the ability to program keys in by scancode, not just by name, is essential as well - because being able to shuffle around the second layer to taste is nice, but the ability to get at keys not in the basic set is even more important. So don't drop that feature in attempting to make it more usable by the general consumer!

EDIT: I see by the web site that in addition to scan code FF for the Fn key, you are planning to have a third layer. One important feature this brings to mind (which you've probably already thought of, of course) is this: instead of only being able to define a key as "2nd layer shift" or "3rd layer shift", it would be very handy to be able to define keys as "Layer shift" and "Use 2nd layer for layer shift", "Use 3rd layer for layer shift". That way, you can use the two swirl keys to switch to a selected additional layer, and use a key on the higher layer to toggle between what that layer is, without having to dedicate more layer shift keys on the first layer.

The black keycaps design prototype uses the Windows menu key as a standard Windows key because it was left after I made the swirl keys. I think the Windows menu key plays in the same league as Capslock and Pause, even Microsoft dropped it lately, IIRC.

Good suggestions on layer switching.

jedidove · « **Reply #504 on:** Wed, 13 January 2010, 22:20:54 »

Gizmodo

http://gizmodo.com/5447553/miniguru-keyboard-makes-typing-quicker-by-keeping-your-fingers-on-the-home-row

I was hoping the day would come that I'd see it on engadget and gizmodo. Props!

I'm noticing a lot of *****ing about colemak and dvorak. Perhaps just to show that you care, you could put an option on the configurator for dvorak and colemak. Even if its not a feasible option when you go into production (keycap manufacturing issues etc.) at least it would shut people up for now and would show that this isn't "just another keyboard".

spolia optima · « **Reply #505 on:** Fri, 15 January 2010, 10:40:34 »

Quote from: lowpoly;150625

snip

Ah. Well, when I was talking about servicing the board, I had the model M in mind. While it shouldn't be a primary concern of yours

(it's really just a minor detail), I think that quality mechanical things (cars, keyboards, etc) are twice as admirable when they can be assembled and disassembled elegantly. If I were to design a keyboard, I would make sure that you could strip it down to the PCB with as few motions as possible. It's a small detail, but I think it's important. I wouldn't sacrifice much of the cosmetics for it though lol.

quadibloc · « **Reply #506 on:** Fri, 15 January 2010, 13:45:05 »

One point. The keyboard will not require a special driver, it will be a USB keyboard... and it is to have N-key rollover. That is, of course, a contradiction: under the first two conditions, the best that is possible is the full six-key rollover provided by the standard USB keyboard format.

Program by USB, then connect by PS/2, would be nice, but would probably require a special custom controller the cost of which would be prohibitive.

lal · « **Reply #507 on:** Fri, 15 January 2010, 13:50:29 »

I repeat my question: what about Bluetooth? I understand that it's probably not trivial to find a place for batteries and stuff. But this would be a killer feature, for me at least. We live in 2010, Bluetooth is pretty much standard in portable computers, and yet we have to carry a cable with our guru keyboards. Think of HTPC users that want to remote control their media centers. The miniguru demands to be freed from the chains of USB cables!

Maybe in a later version?

bhtooefr · « **Reply #508 on:** Fri, 15 January 2010, 15:12:44 »

Again requiring a special custom controller, but you could have it such that it comes up as a custom device, and if it doesn't detect a driver, it switches modes to USB HID.

quadibloc · « **Reply #509 on:** Sun, 17 January 2010, 10:45:26 »

Quote from: bhtooefr;151167

Again requiring a special custom controller, but you could have it such that it comes up as a custom device, and if it doesn't detect a driver, it switches modes to USB HID.

To be technical about this, I don't think that a custom controller in a keyboard would get involved in trying to detect a driver on the computer. Rather, the keyboard would just come up in the standard USB HID, and the driver software on the computer, if present, would send a special command to the keyboard telling it explicitly to switch over to the custom mode that it was equipped to handle. (If acknowledgement of that command was not forthcoming, the assumption on the part of the driver would be that only an ordinary USB keyboard was connected.)

lowpoly · « **Reply #510 on:** Tue, 19 January 2010, 05:17:01 »

Quote from: jedidove;150725

I'm noticing a lot of *****ing about colemak and dvorak. Perhaps just to show that you care, you could put an option on the configurator for dvorak and colemak. Even if its not a feasible option when you go into production (keycap manufacturing issues etc.) at least it would shut people up for now and would show that this isn't "just another keyboard".

I think Colemak and Dvorak keycap sets are highly unlikely, so I wouldn't want to put those in right now. Anybody seen Colemak/Dvorak keycap sets for Cherry MX?

Quote from: spolia optima;151109

Ah. Well, when I was talking about servicing the board, I had the model M in mind. While it shouldn't be a primary concern of yours (it's really just a minor detail), I think that quality mechanical things (cars, keyboards, etc) are twice as admirable when they can be assembled and disassembled elegantly. If I were to design a keyboard, I would make sure that you could strip it down to the PCB with as few motions as possible. It's a small detail, but I think it's important. I wouldn't sacrifice much of the cosmetics for it though lol.

I want the final version to have a plastic endo-skeleton. Everything attaches to this. So you could exchange the case alone, for ex.

Quote from: quadibloc;151154

One point. The keyboard will not require a special driver, it will be a USB keyboard... and it is to have N-key rollover. That is, of course, a contradiction: under the first two conditions, the best that is possible is the full six-key rollover provided by the standard USB keyboard format.

Program by USB, then connect by PS/2, would be nice, but would probably require a special custom controller the cost of which would be prohibitive.

I want the controller to have USB/PS2 autodetect. Which reminds me of the current state of the Geekey project. :-(

Quote from: lal;151156

I repeat my question: what about Bluetooth? I understand that it's probably not trivial to find a place for batteries and stuff. But this would be a killer feature, for me at least. We live in 2010, Bluetooth is pretty much standard in portable computers, and yet we have to carry a cable with our guru keyboards. Think of HTPC users that want to remote control their media centers. The miniguru demands to be freed from the chains of USB cables!

Maybe in a later version?

I guess that wouldn't work with a metal case? The USB hub? Would be a different product. But I see the potential, I'll keep it in mind.

itlnstln · « **Reply #511 on:** Fri, 12 February 2010, 13:19:35 »

Word is definitely getting out.

GenEric35 · « **Reply #512 on:** Sun, 21 February 2010, 16:33:35 »

no turning back now LowPoly! you have been published in Computer Power User, March 2010 edition, page 9.
as far as i know, this is the "best" computer magazine out there and looks like they like the miniguru

http://www.computerpoweruser.com/DigitalEditions/Archive.aspx?guid=95950EB6290248BAA347FE85E3A4AA25

grats, you're expected later this year!

JulienC · « **Reply #513 on:** Sun, 21 February 2010, 23:28:05 »

Congratulations ! I hope everything works out well for producing that awesome keyboard.

(Reading the Smartfish Ergomotion description, I can only laugh thinking about the frustration one could experience when the keyboard suddenly relocates the most frequently used keys).
________
HEALTH-FORUMS.ORG

lowpoly · « **Reply #514 on:** Mon, 22 February 2010, 10:04:18 »

Cool, thanks for posting this!

sudowork · « **Reply #515 on:** Sun, 04 April 2010, 03:19:04 »

::Drools:: I want one! I know not everything has been finalized, but is there any word on price (even a rough estimate)? I was just about to bite the bullet and buy a HHKB, but this just seems so much better!

skcheng · « **Reply #516 on:** Sun, 25 April 2010, 12:16:07 »

I didn't read every post on this thread, but what ended up being the most popular color/switch combination?? Just curious?? I would like cherry blue/brown or possibly reds. White DS keys. Trackpoint I could live with or without. Matching suede or leather wrist rest?? Custom case??

The configurator on the guru-board.com website is cool. But I can't see how it would be possible at all to build each and every one to custom order?? The configurator is SOOOO COOOOL!! I kind of like the Milk n Grass. So organic. And the Red Alert matches my office colors.

waperboy · « **Reply #517 on:** Tue, 27 April 2010, 03:28:28 »

No. You did not make this puppy yourself!? Hats off, remarkable job! Beautiful piece of hardware, it just oozes 'you want me'. Good luck with production, I definitely want one.

ironman31 · « **Reply #518 on:** Tue, 08 June 2010, 15:11:07 »

This keyboard suddenly took my eyes off of getting a topre. I think I can wait for this to come out

itlnstln · « **Reply #519 on:** Tue, 08 June 2010, 15:18:40 »

I haven't seen lowpoly in awhile. I wonder what's going on with this project.

J888www · « **Reply #520 on:** Tue, 08 June 2010, 15:56:19 »

Was just wondering how it would look with transparent key caps, enabling view of the coloured key stems.

Rajagra · « **Reply #521 on:** Tue, 08 June 2010, 16:06:10 »

Quote from: J888www;191012

Was just wondering how it would look with transparent key caps, enabling view of the coloured key stems.

Cherry reds under transparent keys. Drooooool.

itlnstln · « **Reply #522 on:** Wed, 09 June 2010, 09:46:50 »

Transparent plastic looks so 80s. Webwit's pic is a good example.

ricercar · « **Reply #523 on:** Wed, 09 June 2010, 17:09:34 »

Miley was maybe 15 in 2008? Riiip....

Rajagra · « **Reply #524 on:** Wed, 09 June 2010, 17:18:56 »

Britney Spears phenomenon. By the time she was legit and showing off the goods nobody was interested any more.

clickclack · « **Reply #525 on:** Thu, 10 June 2010, 02:25:52 »

Quote from: itlnstln;190996

I haven't seen lowpoly in awhile. I wonder what's going on with this project.

I hope all is well, and I am just as excited for the mini guru as ever =D

Quote from: J888www;191012

Was just wondering how it would look with transparent key caps, enabling view of the coloured key stems.

Bad ass, the clear, ice, and colored translucent keys that I have made are really interesting. I have a pic of the ice one with a blue cherry stem in the other thread.

Quote from: Rajagra;191014

Cherry reds under transparent keys. Drooooool.

no doubt!

Quote from: webwit;191016

Hey I have/had that keyboard in a really odd translucent blue.

Quote from: ripster;191017

I prefer naked women through shower curtains.

FTW!

Quote from: itlnstln;191248

Transparent plastic looks so 80s. Webwit's pic is a good example.

It depends how how it's designed I suppose. Dated designs look... well... dated.

ricercar · « **Reply #526 on:** Thu, 10 June 2010, 17:10:43 »

You prefer naked 15-year olds in the shower, not seen, but instead as described to you by your MOM?!?!? This is quite the Freudean turn..

lowpoly · « **Reply #527 on:** Fri, 18 June 2010, 06:04:48 »

It's not going to happen. :-(

Quote from the blog:

Quote

Miniguru Cancelled

Production of the Miniguru has been cancelled. :-(

I don’t want to list the specific reasons here, let’s just say that mainly we lost faith in being able to sell the initial production run.

Thanks to all who sent messages of support and my apologies to those how have been waiting for this keyboard.

Let me add to that last sentence that I'm sorry I couldn't answer to any PMs or contact form mails during the last weeks because this was looming but a final decision had not been made.

ironman31 · « **Reply #528 on:** Fri, 18 June 2010, 06:58:19 »

quadibloc · « **Reply #529 on:** Fri, 18 June 2010, 07:59:19 »

Given that the MiniGuru was going to be programmable, it's not clear to me that the keyboard on another thread that is similar in appearance would be direct competition.

I do think their "new concept" keyboard, if they choose a decent layout for it, has the potential of being a popular product category. Tenkeyless keyboards and laptop-like keyboards are popular, while the HHKB is a niche product, and so something which gets additional compactness by overlapping the function keys with the other extra keys of the tenkeyless design could be an HHKB for the non-otaku rest of us.

I can't tell you that your decision is wrong, though. Instead, even without less-expensive competition from KBC-China, with only the expensive HHKB to worry about, it might well have been the case that the MiniGuru would have been enough of a niche product to have only limited sales. Given that, though, this additional factor might well have been the straw breaking the camel's back.

salcan · « **Reply #530 on:** Fri, 18 June 2010, 08:13:32 »

Ah, that's too bad. Was definitely looking forward to it.

Not sure if this is privileged information, but what was the initial run going to be? What's the minimum you need to make an order like this?

Rajagra · « **Reply #531 on:** Fri, 18 June 2010, 08:18:06 »

The other product was nowhere near a match for the Miniguru, so I hope that didn't tip the balance. Sorry all the hard work didn't come to fruition, but you can be proud of your ideas and the progress you made.

muchadoaboutnothing · « **Reply #532 on:** Fri, 18 June 2010, 08:51:14 »

That's a shame. I thought the design was extremely cool.

How exactly was faith lost in the saleability of the Miniguru? Have you considered taking the design to another company?

itlnstln · « **Reply #533 on:** Fri, 18 June 2010, 09:36:29 »

And I was so hoping for a Chocolate Cream keyboard.

noctua · « **Reply #534 on:** Fri, 18 June 2010, 09:42:10 »

We can help you! Canceled != Capitulated.. no?

chimera15 · « **Reply #535 on:** Fri, 18 June 2010, 10:34:21 »

You really gave me a lot of inspiration and hope Lowpoly. It's a real letdown for me. I had high hopes that producing a keyboard, especially a compact in the west these days was still possible.

Have you thought about doing stuff like taking pre-orders or interest assessments at different price points? Was it a business model failure or some other type of loss of faith?

Buckling_Summer · « **Reply #536 on:** Fri, 18 June 2010, 10:53:13 »

I think low sales expectation was the reason.

This product needs a good business plan from a professional team and an aggressive marketing campaign everywhere.

Some other keyboards (like the Kinesis ergonomic etc) sell more?
No I dont think so.. This is supposed to be a more closed niche market than MiniGuru's niche.

wellington1869 · « **Reply #537 on:** Fri, 18 June 2010, 11:32:08 »

really sorry to hear this, i was definitely among the true believers of this keyboard. I still think its fantastic and as someone said here, a full-time professional marketing team was probably needed to make the push to market. Keyboards, much like sneakers, are as much about image and style as anything else, unfortunately. The miniguru had style in spades.
But yea, it was going to be a small niche market no matter what, i guess.
Still, a tragedy because it was a mouth-wateringly beautiful keyboard.

You made a valiant attempt, lowpo. I hope there were other benefits from the experience that will enrich your life going forward.

phoenix · « **Reply #538 on:** Fri, 18 June 2010, 12:28:34 »

Really sorry to hear that, lowpoly. How did you come to the conclusion that you wouldn't be able to sell the initial production run? I once recommended kickstarter.com so that people can pledge with real money by a deadline. If it's not too late, can we still try that?

I'm sure this has not been an easy decision for you. When you are ready to tell us more, you will let us know. Until then, I won't ask anything again about the mini-guru.

cfishy · « **Reply #539 on:** Fri, 18 June 2010, 13:11:56 »

Sorry, Lowpoly, I know this project is your baby.

what is this "other" keyboard you guys speak of? http://www.kbc-china.com/ seems broken...

For what it's worth, if you really want a keyboard like miniguru, you can make one yourself. It's just gonna cost a lot. But then again, seeing how people throw away money for iPads, maybe not.

hoggy · « **Reply #540 on:** Fri, 18 June 2010, 13:12:17 »

Sorry to hear it. A lot of us were really looking forward to it, but I wouldn't want you to go bankrupt.

I loved it and I'm now in mourning.

Superfluous Parentheses · « **Reply #541 on:** Fri, 18 June 2010, 14:20:53 »

That sucks. For you, and for us. It's still a really interesting board and I'd have loved to try it.

bigpook · « **Reply #542 on:** Fri, 18 June 2010, 14:45:17 »

no doubt that is bad news. That would have been a sweet keyboard.

keyb_gr · « **Reply #543 on:** Fri, 18 June 2010, 19:08:56 »

Too bad, really

It would have been too cool if this kind of enthusiast project had taken off.

Rajagra · « **Reply #544 on:** Fri, 18 June 2010, 19:17:15 »

It's not uncommon for prospective backers to take out, and hold on to, patents before abandoning a project. That (or a similar claim on rights) could be a possible obstacle to continuing with alternative support.

muchadoaboutnothing · « **Reply #545 on:** Fri, 18 June 2010, 19:28:32 »

Quote from: Rajagra;194475

It's not uncommon for prospective backers to take out, and hold on to, patents before abandoning a project. That (or a similar claim on rights) could be a possible obstacle to continuing with alternative support.

I hope that isn't the case.

As I said in another thread here, on another board I frequent, 5 people (non including myself) had planned on ordering one. I really hope that the Miniguru gets another backer.

Rajagra · « **Reply #546 on:** Fri, 18 June 2010, 19:36:56 »

I would have bought one, probably two. With something as good as this you buy a spare (if not a lifetime supply.)

chimera15 · « **Reply #547 on:** Fri, 18 June 2010, 20:30:16 »

I should look back through the threads, but you used a 3d printing service for the plastics/caps right? Do they have a deal where we can buy them individiually, and you get some profit from it? I know a lot of 3d service printing sites have done that? We could then build our own perhaps?

If you're not going to sell it, full, maybe you could either show us how to make it exactly as in what to buy, or assemble the parts yourself as a complete kit like the kbc people are planning to do, and somehow get some profit from that? If you don't have any construction cost/sweatshop assmembly labor, it's just parts right? This has worked for the model building/hobbiest industry for years. Perhaps this would be a better business model for you, since most of this boards followers are keyboard hobbiests. That might give you enough money, and show the interest level to take it up to a next level.

Maybe at least you could start a new thread/post where you give a summary of how to build one, as I know it's spread through this thread, but in concise links, and a step by step instruction manual.

texteur · « **Reply #548 on:** Sat, 19 June 2010, 00:20:20 »

Aaaaargh. So sad.

You know what: two Months ago, I was about to buy a new Filco, and I said to myself "no, wait a little bit more; Miniguru will be available this autumn, and with it you'll forget all the other keyboards you ever bought".

I missed EliteKeyboards' Majestouch Tenkeyless Tactile Touch Otaku White because I was waiting for the birth of this gorgeous baby...

reisio · « **Reply #549 on:** Sat, 19 June 2010, 01:36:11 »

Couldn't you just count up the number of people here who wanted one (or even have them sign up on a list), and invest only enough to cover that many boards? Profit is profit, and a successful run on a smaller scale could potentially inspire more investment, no?

News:

Author Topic: Mini Keyboard with Trackpoint (Read 378985 times)