The Living Soldering Thread

[korrelate]

i'm demoing our closest approximation to a "learn to solder" soldering pencil next week i believe courtesy edsyn. the goal behind this project will be to create an iron that teaches you how not to kill pads or make bad joints. i've realized that even though i keep recommending the 888d. it's an ideal iron for_me_, not necessarily for someone just getting into soldering. it is _really_ easy to break stuff with an 888d.

Hey mkawa, can you provide a couple of examples of "_really_ easy to break stuff with an 888d?" It's been a long time since I've soldered anything, but I'm jumping right back into the deep end with a couple of projects:

1. transplanting the browns in my leo to my newly desoldered Filco.
2. planting my newly acquired clears in my TrikX.

Cheers,

K

[mkawa]

stranded wires, especially large gauge wires, will sink all the power that the hakko offers and all then all the solder you offer the joint will just flow into the wire and then you'll have a bad day

you can easily fry ICs by putting too much power into a big fat ground plane pad on the other side of the pcb

oxidized tips are bad. lots of power plus an oxidized tip is really really bad. temperature control is measured at the heater not the tip.

lots of power means lots of responsibility when working with sensitive devices. soldering basics are that much more important. that is, unless you _enjoy_ melting plastic and frying ICs.

[korrelate]

stranded wires, especially large gauge wires, will sink all the power that the hakko offers and all then all the solder you offer the joint will just flow into the wire and then you'll have a bad day

you can easily fry ICs by putting too much power into a big fat ground plane pad on the other side of the pcb

oxidized tips are bad. lots of power plus an oxidized tip is really really bad. temperature control is measured at the heater not the tip.

lots of power means lots of responsibility when working with sensitive devices. soldering basics are that much more important. that is, unless you _enjoy_ melting plastic and frying ICs.

Very helpful. The oxidized tip warning particularly so.

So the thrust of "why a Hakko 888d can be so deadly" boils down to power, correct? Because one has so much power available, one would be tempted to use that power to "power-through" a problem that actually requires more understanding & finesse?

[gnubag]

has anyone gone to the Edsyn headquaters and got stuff there?
i am not feeling it, paying $15 for shipping when it is a 20min drive to the HQ if i can save on shipping that way.

[mkawa]

yes, i go there all the time. i'll be there this week to pick up the geeckers stock order, in fact.

[vivalarevolución]

Been cruising the thread this week.  Anybody get all their soldering stuff from Fry's?  I poked around their website and they seem to have a lot of the supplies mentioned in this thread.

[MJ45]

Been cruising the thread this week.  Anybody get all their soldering stuff from Fry's?  I poked around their website and they seem to have a lot of the supplies mentioned in this thread.

That is where I get most of my stuff from. Because Fry's is local for me. Radio Shack does not have much to offer these days, otherwise I order online for the rest.

[mkawa]

Been cruising the thread this week.  Anybody get all their soldering stuff from Fry's?  I poked around their website and they seem to have a lot of the supplies mentioned in this thread.

fry's is quite evil, but a last resort is a last resort.

[vivalarevolución]

Been cruising the thread this week.  Anybody get all their soldering stuff from Fry's?  I poked around their website and they seem to have a lot of the supplies mentioned in this thread.

fry's is quite evil, but a last resort is a last resort.

Not really a last resort, just convenience.  Why is Fry's evil?

[mkawa]

here's just the tip of the iceberg

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/dec/23/business/fi-frys23

there's plenty more where that came from

[Photoelectric]

I need to get a smaller tip for my WLC-100.  I was thinking of getting an ST7 tip to put SMD resistors onto a PCB



But I've seen people recommend 1.6mm (something like ST8) tips as a middle ground for some simple SMD soldering as well as switch soldering.  So I'll try that one, I guess.  I do wonder about the super fine size tips like ST7 and ST5: they must oxidize extremely quickly (according to Amazon reviews).  Perhaps people are just overheating them?  Also, would ST5 and ST6 be preferable to perfectly conical ST7 for SMD work?

And finally, I need a flux pen, and I'm not sure which one I should get.  There are some Rosin-free pens as well as Rosin pens.  Like this one:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0080X79HG/ref=biss_dp_t_asn

Is that good? 

[mkawa]

would you go with an st5 for wipe soldering or stick with a chisel (you can also wipe with a chisel, although the cup can be convenient) and get an st6 for general purpose small surface area stuff. if you don't have an st1, that's the way to go for general purpose soldering. that would be equivalent to the d16 hakko tip that is the go to tip for 99% of 888 usage

[Photoelectric]

Okay, so ST1 for general purpose.  I could probably use it to add resistors as well (I think that's about what WFD used for his SMD solvering video). 
Any recommendations for a type of flux pen?

[mkawa]

as previously said in the thread, i like MG chemicals RA rosin liquid flux. they only make one variant, but it's good. i dispense with a small gauge needle and a bottle -- i have a couple pens, but i prefer to get exactly one drop onto the joint. i would say at a first order though, get a kester kit, and learn to make heat bridges with the active kester flux. one reason why kester 44 is _the best solder_ is because it gives up a lot of very active flux when it melts. you don't need a lot of extra flux unless you're using way expired kester like mine, or you have some particularly tricky and oxidized joints (which should probably be scrubbed with a small, fine stainless brush first instead of using flux).

[jonathanyu]

any recommendation on flux remover? my old one didn't work very well 

[komar007]

any recommendation on flux remover? my old one didn't work very well 

Isopropyl alcohol + lint free cloth or ESD brush works pretty well for me

[jonathanyu]

any recommendation on flux remover? my old one didn't work very well 

Isopropyl alcohol + lint free cloth or ESD brush works pretty well for me

thanks, I will it

[damorgue]

This will be a short overview of my experiences with the Yihua 936 which is often recommended around here. I bought a few to save shipping and got a few friends to get them as well. I got two myself and one arrived broken. The led just flashed once when turned on and then remained off, and it did not get hot. I first thought it was the power unit but I tried the pen in two different units with the same result. I then tried the other pen and it worked, in both units. This meant that it was the pen which was broken in one of the units.

I unscrewed the end and first found a problem which I believed to be the cause. The tip is grounded through a spring which contacts to the metal surface seen in the following picture. This is the second pen which was better:

As you can see, there metal isn't fully exposed and during the molding some plastic has covered it. This is the second one which was better, and after I had scraped some off. The first one was almost entirely covered.

This didn't fix it though, so I opened it up further and found a cable which was loose and a solder joint which was bad (frankly, several solder joints were very bad.) I fixed it and it now works. I didn't take any pictures during this either but I did take one afterwards on the pen which was never broken to get an idea:

This is when I noticed that the quality of the solder joints differed greatly. The one which was broken was terrible. This one, although a bit bad as you can notice on the yellow wire which sticks out, appears far better made. Some wires are also very close to shorting out other solder joints. You can also see the previously mentioned spring which grounds the tip in this picture.

I started looking for other differences since I had gotten curious and I found that the mantle thing under the tip looked different. Notice how it is completely straight on one of them but bent out on the other:


The manual was also quite different between the two.


To summarize: I think you get what you pay for, and quite bad build quality as is expected. One was even broken from the very start and I recommend people to open theirs up and ensure that it will keep working longer. They also appear to be made at two different factories or at least by two different people with different quality control.

[damorgue]

That said, I do recommend it. It is cheap as hell for what it is. I also just tried some Hakko tips and they are far better than the ones included with the Yihua. I am getting the impression that the tips from the Yihua don't have a copper core or something because they don't seem to conduct heat very well. They didn't melt the solder at the very end but did so a bit closer to the heating element.

[Photoelectric]

Something to be said about fixing bad soldering joints on a soldering iron 

[damorgue]

Yeah, the irony, or solder irony if you will, is perfectly clear to me.

[Proc31]

I'm interested in building a phantom board and over the last week I've sourced all the parts needed to create it from all over the place, I'm fairly knowledgeable on the keyboards themselves so I know what goes where etc etc however I'm inexperienced at soldering and do not have any equipment. Is it possible that someone could recommend me some soldering kit so that I can go ahead with my project or at least start practicing for it. At the moment I think I'll need, A soldering iron, some solder and a desoldering pump; is there anything I'm missing? I've read the original thead however all the pricaes are in US and I'm not sure about where to get stuff in the UK or what to get. Thank you for your help.

[JPG]

I'm interested in building a phantom board and over the last week I've sourced all the parts needed to create it from all over the place, I'm fairly knowledgeable on the keyboards themselves so I know what goes where etc etc however I'm inexperienced at soldering and do not have any equipment. Is it possible that someone could recommend me some soldering kit so that I can go ahead with my project or at least start practicing for it. At the moment I think I'll need, A soldering iron, some solder and a desoldering pump; is there anything I'm missing? I've read the original thead however all the pricaes are in US and I'm not sure about where to get stuff in the UK or what to get. Thank you for your help.

You could look with mkawa and geekhackers. He mentionned he will probably provide a very good yet cheap soldering iron all setup for keyboard soldering. He also already has solder and soldapult for sale. I would start with that (and maybe look for flux locally and things to practice on). Just send mkawa a pm and he will probably answer you quite fast on this!

[Photoelectric]

In the absence of a Hakko desoldering iron, is my best option to remove LEDs from swtiches using a braid + flux?  Pretty sure the RadioShack iron will be too large for the job, plus it eats through tips like a hungry orphan through a cheesecake.  Going to be replacing some 87 LEDs soon.

P.S.: I own an old used Soldapullt in good condition, but embarrassingly enough, I haven't mastered it yet.  Or else I really need to grease the o-ring, because it doesn't seem to be doing well at sucking solder.

[nubbinator]

There's nothing embarrassing about not mastering the solder sucker yet.  You just need to practice, practice, and practice until you get that muscle memory down in your non-dominant hand (or dominant hand if you use the iron in your off hand).  It took me a little while to figure out how to use mine effectively.  Once I got it down, I was blowing my way through boards with it.  On the other hand, I still hate solder wicks since they always seem to take forever for me.

If it's not sucking very well, odds are one of two things are happening. First, you may not be getting the tip over the solder joint properly, so it doesn't have the suction power to pull it up.  Secondly, there may just be too much time between you flowing the solder and getting the Soldapult over the solder.  You pretty much have to have it flowing and immediately have the solder sucker over the joint, sucking the solder away.  A split second too long and the solder will have hardened enough to not come out. 

If you have an old PCB, I'd practice on that.  And don't even start with an iron, just sit there and work on the motion and then motion and speed you need to desolder on some joints.  Once you think you have the motion figured out and have a decent speed, then start practicing with flowing the solder and using the solder sucker.

[jdcarpe]

In the absence of a Hakko desoldering iron, is my best option to remove LEDs from swtiches using a braid + flux?  Pretty sure the RadioShack iron will be too large for the job, plus it eats through tips like a hungry orphan through a cheesecake.  Going to be replacing some 87 LEDs soon.

P.S.: I own an old used Soldapullt in good condition, but embarrassingly enough, I haven't mastered it yet.  Or else I really need to grease the o-ring, because it doesn't seem to be doing well at sucking solder.

You do need to grease the o-ring.

I have desoldered LEDs using the RadioShack bulb desoldering tool, but it takes some finesse. And always add more solder to the joint before attempting to desolder.

[Photoelectric]

Thank you, I'll grease the Soldapullt ring and will practice more.  I've desoldered T1 indicator LEDs with the RS iron and a desoldering braid before, but it was a slow process (thanks to my Filco's through-hole copper inserts).  Maybe Soldapullt will help me out this time!

By the way, does anyone know if the PCB in LZ-GH also has through-hole copper inserts for all of the LED holes?

[dragonxx21]

Hmm, would it be worth it to wait for the GH edition soldering iron, or should I just get a yihua

[jdcarpe]

By the way, does anyone know if the PCB in LZ-GH also has through-hole copper inserts for all of the LED holes?

I'm almost positive it does. It seemed like they were plated through holes when I was assembling mine.

[Photoelectric]

By the way, does anyone know if the PCB in LZ-GH also has through-hole copper inserts for all of the LED holes?

I'm almost positive it does. It seemed like they were plated through holes when I was assembling mine.

As I suspected =/  Well, it's going to be one long project! 

[Photoelectric]

By the way, has anyone tried one of these?  Lots up on eBay, this model and some more expensive versions
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Best-selling-arrival-S-993A-Electric-Vacuum-Desoldering-Pump-Solder-Sucker-Gun-/321210037659?pt=US_Video_Gaming_Replacement_Parts_Tools&hash=item4ac99c359b

"S-993A Electric Vacuum Desoldering Pump Solder Sucker Gun"
(up to 350C)

Not that I want to spend $90 on one, but it's significantly cheaper than Hakko's desoldering gun (half the price).

[nubbinator]

By the way, has anyone tried one of these?  Lots up on eBay, this model and some more expensive versions
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Best-selling-arrival-S-993A-Electric-Vacuum-Desoldering-Pump-Solder-Sucker-Gun-/321210037659?pt=US_Video_Gaming_Replacement_Parts_Tools&hash=item4ac99c359b

"S-993A Electric Vacuum Desoldering Pump Solder Sucker Gun"
(up to 350C)

Not that I want to spend $90 on one, but it's significantly cheaper than Hakko's desoldering gun (half the price).

According to this youtube review of one, it's a decent little Hakko clone...unless you drop it.

[Photoelectric]

Yeah, I saw that.  Some listings of Asian soldering stations specifically have "don't drop it" warnings

[mkawa]

Hmm, would it be worth it to wait for the GH edition soldering iron, or should I just get a yihua

it looks like the yihua 937 is as low as 45$ shipped? i absolutely cannot beat that. the edsyn cl1481 fixed to kester 44 process temp with a bundle of kester 44 is going to be a much more user friendly way to start soldering than a yihua, and will teach you much much more about how to solder properly than the yihua station, as well as being significantly higher quality and easier to work with, but i categorically will not be able to sell them cheaper than yihuas. that price is ridiculously low.

fwiw my price target is about 60 for the iron (two tips: medium and large and an iron holder) and 4-8$ for the solder (kester packs are in flux right now lolz)

[damorgue]

The Yihua is 936 is even lower mkawa. If you wait on the page at hobbyking for a while it will prompt you with a discount  as well since you have viewed the item for a few minutes. It goes from 16 something USD to 15 something.

Some additional thoughts after having used it for a while: I don't think the temperature input from the tip is very accurate. There was a video review which stated that it was, but there are several signs that it isn't. First of all, it takes seconds from turning it on until the heating stops and it claims to have reached target temperature. The cycling of the heating is weird and does not correlate very well to changing the dial or removing heat from the tip which to me indicates poor contact between the heating element and the tip.

Secondly, and more importantly, I for one can't melt 60/40 (185ish degrees) solder when I have the unit set to 200 degrees. At 260, it barely melts it and I had to go up to 290 to use it. I am going to measure the temp at the tip when I get a hold of a decent device to do so with.

[dragonxx21]

Hmm, I might just wait for the cl1481. Being fixed to the kester temp, does that mean that it may be too hot or not hot enough for other applications?

[Photekq]

Ok, I've got no clue what has happened. Soldered one switch, then realised I had forgot to put in the stabilisers.. Went to desolder.. Some comes out, the rest is solid. It literally WILL NOT MELT. I'm using a chisel tip on a yihua 936, and used kester 44. I've tried loads of heat settings, the yihua melts solder fine.. Just not this stuff that's still stuck there. At this point the pad is ****ed, so I'm not worried about damaging it further. My only two questions are :

1. What the **** happened? Why won't this solder melt? It's as if it's a different material. I put solder ontop, but the heat simply does not transfer to it.. It simply will not melt.
2. How can I get this switch out? As I've said before, the pad is already damaged so it doesn't matter if I have to rip the pad off altogether.

[Photoelectric]

Do you mean there's solder inside the holes where the switch pins are?  As in, some filaments along copper inserts?  If so, just get as much solder out as you can and then heat the pins while propping the PCB vertically on its side and then pull on the switch with your other hand from the opposite side.  I normally wedge a flat head screwdriver or similar between the plate and where the switch tabs are and use the screwdriver as a lever.  If you're careful and go slowly, your switch will pop out after you heat up the pins once or twice each.  No damage done, and your switch is safely removed without abusing the PCB for every last bit of solder.  The goal is to melt the solder filaments you can't reach via heating up the pins while simultaneously pulling the switch out.

Hopefully that's it.  I've had to do that with a bunch of switches on Filco PCBs, since those PCBs are double-sided.

[Photekq]

Do you mean there's solder inside the holes where the switch pins are?  As in, some filaments along copper inserts?  If so, just get as much solder out as you can and then heat the pins while propping the PCB vertically on its side and then pull on the switch with your other hand from the opposite side.  I normally wedge a flat head screwdriver or similar between the plate and where the switch tabs are and use the screwdriver as a lever.  If you're careful and go slowly, your switch will pop out after you heat up the pins once or twice each.  The goal is to melt the solder filaments you can't reach via heating up the pins while simultaneously pulling the switch out.

Hopefully that's it.  I've had to do that with a bunch of switches on Filco PCBs, since those PCBs are double-sided.

It's on the surface. I can make direct contact with it and the soldering iron. It just will not melt no matter what I do.

[Photoelectric]

Has your iron gone bad, perhaps?  Can you solder anything with it?  Otherwise, I guess maybe try adding some flux on top of what you're trying to melt.

[Photekq]

Has your iron gone bad, perhaps?  Can you solder anything with it?  Otherwise, I guess maybe try adding some flux on top of what you're trying to melt.

It's so weird. The iron works perfectly. I can melt solder fine with it. This patch of solder just won't melt. I've tried practically every heat setting, I've tried adding solder to it.. Nothing works.

Now the pad's screwed and I'm not happy

At this point I just want the switch out so that I can continue building

[CPTBadAss]

Take a picture so someone like mkawa can help?

[Photoelectric]

If you have pure flux, I'd put some on top of the joint and try again.  Not sure what else you could do other than that.

[Photekq]

Take a picture so someone like mkawa can help?

There isn't anything to see... It just looks like a regular solder joint (although the pad is a total mess). The solder looks exactly the same as normal solder, it just won't melt. It's really, really weird.

[Dubsgalore]

Gosh...sorry to hear phobro..maybe some plastic has melted in or something?

[Photekq]

Ah, okay, after holding the iron to it for absolutely ages it melted rapidly and turned brown. That was really peculiar.

Now the pad has caved into the switch hole and there still seems to be solder in there.. *facepalm

[Dubsgalore]

Ah, okay, after holding the iron to it for absolutely ages it melted rapidly and turned brown. That was really peculiar.

Now the pad has caved into the switch hole and there still seems to be solder in there.. *facepalm

Direct Wiring time...sorry to hear again

the Tek will rise and live soon!

[Photoelectric]

So you don't have pure flux to add?  Flux facilitates solder flow.  You've probably burnt through all the flux that was in the solder to start with, so now you have only the metals left.

[Photekq]

Direct Wiring time...sorry to hear again

the Tek will rise and live soon!

Still need to get the switch out...

So you don't have pure flux to add?  Flux facilitates solder flow.  You've probably burnt through all the flux that was in the solder to start with, so now you have only the metals left.

I have no idea why it behaved so weird. I don't think it was flux. It wasn't that it wouldn't flow.. it's that it wouldn't melt.

The 'brown' wasn't flux brown, it was dark as hell.

I've got no clue what to do now. I think my only option is to force the switch out somehow, resulting in that pad being completely screwed.

[mkawa]

Hmm, I might just wait for the cl1481. Being fixed to the kester temp, does that mean that it may be too hot or not hot enough for other applications?

yah, it won't be able to melt some types of lead-free solder out of the box. the worst lead-free process temps are 450+.

it is technically possible to change the temperature the unit is set to, but it requires disassembling the iron and it is designed to be hard to access, so that you can't accidentally change the temperature. once you reach a point of expertise with the iron and small tools, it's actually cake to change the temperature, but the idea is that the capability of the iron scales with your skill such that at each level it makes it as hard as possible to make mistakes. the temp and solder and the tips it comes with will be designed for assembling things with the kester primarily, but the idea is that it scales with your ability, so that its default mode is to protect you from burning things up, and then as you learn to tinker and build up a tool chest, you can turn it into a full-on ACCURATE high quality temp controllable iron.

and the basic idea is and was to hit a price point substantially under the hakko 888D at the same level of quality that gives you the same functionality in the common case with absolutely zero setup.