Author Topic: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations  (Read 6422 times)

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Offline rebus

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A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« on: Sat, 05 April 2014, 05:36:57 »
Hello
I have been suffering RSI (pain in my wrists) for about three months now, and I noticed the thing that I suffer the most is pressing combination of 2, 3 or even 4 keys (like Ctrl+Alt+Shift+V). I am a tech writer and layout designer and I use them a lot. So, I was searching for a good ergonomic keyboard with those keys in a  convenient position to avoid stress. I love the TypeMatrix concept, but those keys (ctrl - alt - shift) are not really symmetric and differently sized, and that might be perhaps confusing. So maybe the TECK, where those keys are all near together? Wow, that's an expensive keyboard for my budget, but if that's the solution I might be considering it. I am also willing to learn Colemak, but I believe that, even it will be an improvement, it would not really fix my issue with key combinations. Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance  :)

Offline SonOfSonOfSpock

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #1 on: Sat, 05 April 2014, 12:24:04 »
Maybe look for something that has macro capabilities so you can avoid those key combos. Some boards have it built-in. I think Autohotkey can do macros as well.
« Last Edit: Sat, 05 April 2014, 20:13:09 by SonOfSonOfSpock »

Offline EvillePanda

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #2 on: Sat, 05 April 2014, 13:43:20 »
I have a TECK and it's a very comfortable keyboard to use.  I have very little finger travel (and small hands).  The firmware is completely programmable so if you need to create a special keyboard layout just for you, it's an option.  The keyboard is also fairly heavy and very solid.
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Offline Lanx

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 06 April 2014, 08:42:25 »
buy a gamepad that you can macro all those ****ty combinations, i mean wtf!

i use TWO macro devices, a x-keys strip i put on my bottom monitor and a nostromo n52

Offline rebus

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 06 April 2014, 15:38:16 »
Wow, a gamepad is a solution I actually didn't think of, but really might be worth considering! Thanks a lot for your suggestions.

As for keyboards, it seems to me that TECK and Ergodox are maybe the best options, though a bit expensive for me. More experiences?

Thanks again

Offline davkol

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 06 April 2014, 16:08:37 »
Foot switches, software sticky keys or a keypad w/ macros. I gave my dad an A4Tech G100 to use with HID Macros for DTP work.

Offline jacobolus

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 06 April 2014, 19:45:34 »
Typically, the main problem with such keyboard shortcuts (i.e. what makes them painful, slow, inaccurate) is that to press all the modifiers requires moving your hand and contorting it into an uncomfortable shape. This happens because the modifier keys are not very well placed, not because pressing any possible combination of several keys at once is inherently uncomfortable. For example, I bet the vast majority of people could handle pressing spacebar, A, S, D, and F at the same time (on a QWERTY layout) without any particular discomfort or slowdown.

I think the best way around this is to use a programmable keyboard with some extra thumb keys.

The way I plant to try is:

* On each hand, have a thumb key modifier (e.g. below the spacebar), let's call the left one the ◐ key and the right one the ◑ key.
* When the ◐ key is held down, the home row keys on the left hand become modifiers. E.g. for a QWERTY layout, F becomes command, D becomes control, S becomes option, and A becomes shift
* But the keys on the right side of the keyboard continue to work as usual letters.
* Likewise, when the ◑ key is held down, the home row keys on the right hand become modifiers. E.g. J becomes command, K becomes control, L becomes option, ; becomes shift.

So for example, to press command-P, you'd use ◐FP
Or to press command-option-shift-V, you'd use ◑JL;V
Etc.

Because the command key plus a letter is, by itself, very common, I might use ◑ or ◐ plus a letter on the opposite hand to also just mean command plus that letter.

I’m not exactly sure what the best setup will be, but as soon as I have some keyboard mockups wired up, I plan to test some various options.

Offline rebus

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #7 on: Mon, 07 April 2014, 09:24:46 »
Typically, the main problem with such keyboard shortcuts (i.e. what makes them painful, slow, inaccurate) is that to press all the modifiers requires moving your hand and contorting it into an uncomfortable shape. This happens because the modifier keys are not very well placed, not because pressing any possible combination of several keys at once is inherently uncomfortable. For example, I bet the vast majority of people could handle pressing spacebar, A, S, D, and F at the same time (on a QWERTY layout) without any particular discomfort or slowdown.

I totally agree with this. Could you recommend a programmable keyboard with extra thumb keys in order to proceed as you suggested?
« Last Edit: Mon, 07 April 2014, 09:54:50 by rebus »

Offline tuffy

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 07 April 2014, 10:17:41 »
Have you considered "sticky" modifier keys?  They're often available under OS accessibility options so that instead of contorting your hand to hit 3 different modifier keys at once, you can just type them in sequence.  For instance, hit ctrl, then hit alt, then hit shift, then hit "v" to fire them all off at once.


Offline vivalarevolución

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 07 April 2014, 10:55:04 »
I have a TECK and it's a very comfortable keyboard to use.  I have very little finger travel (and small hands).  The firmware is completely programmable so if you need to create a special keyboard layout just for you, it's an option.  The keyboard is also fairly heavy and very solid.

TECK is a decent keyboard, but I thought the TECK was only programmable on Windows.

Overall, I recommend anything with thumbs that makes pressing modifiers less awkward.  Something like the Kinesis Advantage, Maltron, or Ergodox.  They all have their pros and cons.
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Offline jacobolus

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 07 April 2014, 13:52:53 »
I totally agree with this. Could you recommend a programmable keyboard with extra thumb keys in order to proceed as you suggested?
You could do something like this with the Ergodox, but I’ve been working on my own DIY keyboard(s).

Offline Architect

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 07 April 2014, 17:42:51 »
I have a TECK and it's a very comfortable keyboard to use.  I have very little finger travel (and small hands).  The firmware is completely programmable so if you need to create a special keyboard layout just for you, it's an option.  The keyboard is also fairly heavy and very solid.

TECK is a decent keyboard, but I thought the TECK was only programmable on Windows.

It's reprogrammable for key mappings on the keyboard, so that maps to anything (Win, OS X, Linux, etc). It doesn't support on keyboard Macros, but you can use third party tools for that (ControllerMate, etc).
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Offline EvillePanda

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 07 April 2014, 17:59:21 »
I have a TECK and it's a very comfortable keyboard to use.  I have very little finger travel (and small hands).  The firmware is completely programmable so if you need to create a special keyboard layout just for you, it's an option.  The keyboard is also fairly heavy and very solid.

TECK is a decent keyboard, but I thought the TECK was only programmable on Windows.

Overall, I recommend anything with thumbs that makes pressing modifiers less awkward.  Something like the Kinesis Advantage, Maltron, or Ergodox.  They all have their pros and cons.

It has programming for Mac.
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Offline Architect

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #13 on: Tue, 08 April 2014, 06:26:59 »
Back to OP, in my experience putting the modifier keys on the thumbs is the best to prevent RSI. Of course you only have two thumbs, so you need to use your pinkies for multi-modifier combinations. Therefore the best solution is to put the most common - Control-Command on the thumb. The keyboards that do this are the TECK, Kinesis, Maltron and (I think) Ergodox.

I've extensively used the Kinesis, which is similar to the Maltron and Ergodox (they're all in the same family basically). That's a fine solution you may prefer, but the TECK has been the best keyboard I've found personally. For the Control-Command key simply remap the left spacebar to that. Then you get symmetric modifier blocks in the right and left hand for Mac, or a nice asymmetric mapping in Windows.

Further, if you want to do more extensive remapping you can easily do so with the center row and use your thumb for them all as I do. Just do a remapping. I wouldn't recommend this but you can consider it.

Anyhow plenty of options.
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Offline Oobly

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #14 on: Tue, 08 April 2014, 08:04:56 »
An ErgoDox with modifiers mapped to thumb buttons could work well, especially if you can press two with the same thumb without it being awkward.

This is one of the reasons I placed the modifiers where I did on the thumb clusters on my DIY board:

60396-0

The bottom 2 keys on the right thumb are Ctrl and Alt, top front key on the left thumb is Shift. So it's an easy combination, left thumb presses one, right presses 2 and you press V with the correct finger (left hand index finger for QWERTY layout, right hand ring for my custom layout).
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Offline lydell

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #15 on: Tue, 08 April 2014, 12:40:57 »
I have a TECK. To offload the pinkies and to make it easier to press multiple modifiers at once, I have put the modifiers on the number row, like this:

2: LALt
3: LCtrl
4: LShift
5: LSuper
6: RSuper
7: RShift
8: RCtrl
9: RAlt

I absolutely love it, even though it is a bit greater stretch. One modifier per finger makes it really easy to combine them.

(Note that I’ve put both Super and Shift on the index fingers, which means that Shift+Super can be a problem. For me it isn’t, though. When I’m on windows, Super is the Windows key. I’ve never used the Windows key together with a modifier. On Linux, I hardly ever use Super. I plan to reserve it for custom stuff. If I ever _do_ want to combine Super with other modifiers, it is still possible by moving the whole hand one key to the middle (since the the pinkies have no modifiers to operate).

So if I put the modifiers where the numbers used to be, where did I put the numbers and their shifted symbols? How dare I destroy that row?

Well, I’ve never liked the number row. The '1' and '0' are so difficult to reach. (That’s why I did not put modifiers on those two keys.) It is much easier to type numbers on a numpad than on a row. Finally, as a programmer, I’ve always wished all those symbols were in better positions. So I hit two birds with one stone here.

I have put the numbers and symbols in the FN layer of the TECK. I have a numpad like the following (assuming QWERTY):

Right “space bar”: 0
m: 1
,: 2
.: 3
j: 4
k: 5
l: 6
u: 7
i: 8
o: 9

I’ve put [](){}<>`~'\$_@" etc on the remaining letters and so on.

To make this FN layer usable, I’ve added two additional FN keys, on the default LAlt and RAlt positions. Having removed the wrist rest of the TECK, I can press those two keys by just dropping my hand down, hitting the keys with the side of the hand. Some call that “ninja-chopping”. I really like that. If you don’t, perhaps the default LShift and RShift are good candiates (I put Tab and Escape, respectively, there instead).

Summary:

1. Instead of letting the pinky operate all modifiers, use different fingers for each modifier.
2. Easily combine modifiers (since there’s one finger per modifier).
3. Put the numbers and symbols in really convenient locations in a new layer.
4. Gain extra keys in the main layer (the '1', '0', LCtrl, RCtrl, LShift, RShift spots etc.)

Hope any of that is of help ;) At least I like it. I don’t have RSI or any injuries, though, so I can’t say it it helps in such cases.

Offline islisis

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #16 on: Tue, 08 April 2014, 14:06:14 »
dual role keys will open up a big range of possibilities for thumb keys
one example is tat you can add a modifier function to emulate ctrl-alt-shift
did you stop using them in your setup lydell?

a japanese layout keyboard is an easy way to get access to more thumb keys
« Last Edit: Thu, 10 April 2014, 21:34:16 by islisis »

Offline lydell

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #17 on: Tue, 08 April 2014, 14:19:40 »
Yes, I stopped using them, for a couple of reasons:

1. I initially put the modifiers exactly as I have them now (as explained above), but two rows down—that is, on the home row. Then, the home row keys where dual role keys. In short, modifiers when held down, letters when pressed alone. That was awesome in the beginning, but fell apart after a while: I couldn’t type quickly anymore, without accidentally triggering modifiers. I don’t know if that’s because my dual role key implementation wasn’t good enough, or because the concept has a limit. A conclusion might be: Don’t make _letters_ into dual-role keys, but feel free to use the space bar and keys that already are modifiers.
2. I was using AHK to implement dual role keys, but that’s not perfect. Now I prefer stability over really cool features.
3. I’ve moved to GNU/Linux, and I do not know of a software solution there. I don’t feel confident enough to tinker with firmware too much.

Offline islisis

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #18 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 20:06:24 »
OK, I know what you mean on all points...! I have DR keys only under the thumbs and pinkies
Hope your software is useful to others interested in trying the idea
« Last Edit: Thu, 10 April 2014, 00:44:48 by islisis »

Offline Melvang

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #19 on: Wed, 09 April 2014, 23:10:07 »
I feel the best thing to do in order to alleviate RSI symptoms the most would be a combination of things.  Now the actual best courses of action will depend mostly on you.  And here you have to be completely honest with yourself.  Is your pain being caused by RSI (generally associated with repeated impact stresses), carpal tunnel, or just excessive use and joint/muscle strain.  This is my take on these.

1. To relieve the pain that is being caused by impact stress the best course of action is actually to increase the spring rate in your switches.  IE go (MX switch examples here) going from blues to greens or whites, reds to blacks, and browns to clears.  This can be coupled with forcing yourself to type without bottoming out.  Another thing you can try here is (I have no personal experience with these) to go to a Topre switch.  These have much softer landings than MX or Alps switches without resorting to landing pads, or o rings which are also an option for MX and/or alps switches.

2.  To relieve pain being caused by carpal tunnel the best course of action might be to move to dictation software.  Though I don't know how viable this is in your personal/work setting.  Aside from that you might want to look into alternate physical keyboard layouts.  A change in actual typing motions can do wonders for carpal tunnel due to different repetitive motions with the different layouts.  Dvorak and Colemak are the two most popular layouts.  There are people that are fiercely loyal to one or the other.  But in actuality there that not been any substantial findings of one being faster than the other.  Both are however much more comfortable over qwerty in almost every case that I have read about.  I have only dabbled in Dvorak for a couple hours.  But I don't type for a living and am just a gamer.  What I can tell you about the two is Dvorak tends to favor alternating hands a touch more and Colemak tends to favor rolls of fingers on the same hand a touch more with common shortcuts being in the same place (cut, copy, and paste).

3.  If it is excessive use, just take some breaks while typing for extended periods of time.  Take the time to stretch fingers, hands, wrists, arms, chest, and legs.  Get up and walk for a few minutes.  I have to do that at work on occasion if I am stuffed in a tight spot in a machine (I work as a very much glorified maintenance mechanic by trade).  The boss don't care for it at times but I need to do it if I want to keep working on that machine.

Some other options that you can look into is foot pedals that can be mapped to what ever you like.  There are many varieties but most are fairly pricey for what you are actually getting in hardware just due to supply and demand.
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Offline OldDataHands

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 10 April 2014, 23:08:50 »
The Datahand thumb cluster is very nice in this regard. A slight motion on both thumbs gets you ctrl-alt-shift very easily.
Here's the state of my thumb cluster model:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41422.msg1252752#msg1252752

Some Datahand pics can be found there too. Not that they are easy to come by, or cheap, and not that you should wait for me, but it is a nice setup. Maybe it will inspire some solution for you...

Offline Melvang

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #21 on: Thu, 10 April 2014, 23:17:13 »
The Datahand thumb cluster is very nice in this regard. A slight motion on both thumbs gets you ctrl-alt-shift very easily.
Here's the state of my thumb cluster model:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41422.msg1252752#msg1252752

Some Datahand pics can be found there too. Not that they are easy to come by, or cheap, and not that you should wait for me, but it is a nice setup. Maybe it will inspire some solution for you...

Yes, the datahand is the absolute ultimate in minimal finger movement and lack of impact stresses.  Though they are very difficult to find and relatively expensive.  Also not sure exactly what would be involved in getting one to work with a modern machine as I don't think they speak the same protocol as current keyboards let alone a totally different connector, IIRC.
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Offline OldDataHands

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 11 April 2014, 07:48:24 »
Quote from: Melvang link=topic=56793.msg1291173#msg1291173
Yes, the datahand is the absolute ultimate in minimal finger movement and lack of impact stresses.  Though they are very difficult to find and relatively expensive.  Also not sure exactly what would be involved in getting one to work with a modern machine as I don't think they speak the same protocol as current keyboards let alone a totally different connector, IIRC.

Mine are PS2, as were the majority, I guess. I think there may have been some really early versions which were serial though... In any case, they (the PS2 version) just plug in and work!

Offline angelic_sedition

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 17 April 2014, 19:47:05 »
Here's an alternate outlook: stop using alt and control and map shift to a thumbkey or to caps.

I do essentially everything with the keyboard and never have to use alt or control (or pinky modifiers). What are you using them for? It may be possible to replace their functionality.

If you want to take a hardware route, get a japanese keyboard (you can get a rubber dome one for ~$30 or less) with extra thumbkeys and move your modifiers to better positions.
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Offline rebus

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #24 on: Fri, 18 April 2014, 03:05:26 »
Thanks everybody for all your contributions! It's become a really interesting and informative thread for me.

I use the modifiers especially for DTP, where I have to use many repetitive commands that often have fancy shortcuts (like alt+ctrl+shift+ò in an Italian keyboard)
 
I am considering buying a programmable keyboard, but please keep posting your experiences: they are helping me a lot in the choice.

Offline angelic_sedition

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #25 on: Fri, 18 April 2014, 09:07:24 »
Thanks everybody for all your contributions! It's become a really interesting and informative thread for me.

I use the modifiers especially for DTP, where I have to use many repetitive commands that often have fancy shortcuts (like alt+ctrl+shift+ò in an Italian keyboard)
 
I am considering buying a programmable keyboard, but please keep posting your experiences: they are helping me a lot in the choice.

If it's just for symbols, I would recommend symbol layers and possibly deadkeys instead. If that's not what you meant, then what exactly does alt+ctrl+shift+ò do? I'd never put up with a program that made me do that. I don't much see the point of buying a programmable keyboard if it's not more ergonomic as well. Something with a thumb cluster would probably be more useful.
QWERTY(104wpm) -> CarpalxQ(modded) -> Colemak(118wpm) -> Colemak-DH
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Offline rebus

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #26 on: Fri, 18 April 2014, 15:51:11 »
it's not about symbols, they are just shortcuts (for instance, ctrl+shift+ò is ‘send to back’ in InDesign), and yes, I agree with you about the keyboard. In fact, my ideal keyboard would have to be ergonomic, programmable and with modifiers on the thumbs

Offline Melvang

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #27 on: Fri, 18 April 2014, 16:56:18 »
it's not about symbols, they are just shortcuts (for instance, ctrl+shift+ò is ‘send to back’ in InDesign), and yes, I agree with you about the keyboard. In fact, my ideal keyboard would have to be ergonomic, programmable and with modifiers on the thumbs

Sounds like you could really benefit from the Ergo Dox.
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Offline rebus

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #28 on: Sat, 19 April 2014, 03:43:55 »
Sounds like you could really benefit from the Ergo Dox.

Probably, the trouble with the Ergodox is that I don't think I would be able to assemble it  :-[

Offline Melvang

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #29 on: Sat, 19 April 2014, 08:37:28 »
There are quite a few people that will build it for you.  I don't feel like digging up a link (on my phone at work), but if you check one of the stickied threads in Making Stuff Together there is a lost of people that offer assembly service.
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Offline tricheboars

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Re: A good keyboard for huge use of key combinations
« Reply #30 on: Sat, 19 April 2014, 19:14:45 »
Sounds like you could really benefit from the Ergo Dox.

Probably, the trouble with the Ergodox is that I don't think I would be able to assemble it  :-[

it really isnt hard. it seems overwhelming if you havent done it before.  the hardest part is parting with the cash in your wallet to get the tools to make it.  once you make it though... oh it feels good. that feeling of accomplishment.  you will own it more than any other input device you own simply because you built it.

also if you dont want to build it there are plenty of people on this site that will do it for you.  just make a classified post and offer cash or a trade. 
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