[IC] F62+F77! New Kishsaver+Industrial Model F Keyboards

[romevi]

The original deadline was end of June, right? With orders completed by September?

[Ellipse]

Yes romevi.  I am hoping to extend the deadline to allow the early bird keyboards to arrive from China, be fully tested on my side, ship out to everyone for testing/usage for at least a month or two but am wondering how much time everyone thinks should be allowed.  Too little time and people miss out of the final round, but too much time and those people end up waiting a while to get their order.  In the mean time the plan is to make extra units in the early bird round out of pocket and sell them to anyone who missed the early bird round but does not want to wait a few months for delivery.

[Techno Trousers]

I think 30 days from the time people receive the first round keyboards should be enough time.

[Ellipse]

ok Techno I think at least 1 month is a good idea.

And in case anyone's interested I posted part of my Vice-Motherboard interview on the GB thread (please keep discussion over there to minimize duplication).

Here's the link to the article:  http://motherboard.vice.com/read/mechanical-keyboards-esports-logitech-steelseries

[Ellipse]

I posted some CNC milled zinc case mold production photos over on the GB thread in case anyone's interested - please keep the discussion over though to avoid discussions in multiple places. 

I'm still coordinating with the factory on the small cases.  Ultra compact case keyboard prototypes will not be made and tested for at least a month.

[ryahirv]

@Ellipse:

Is it posted anywhere the dimensions of the case in the area between the front and the space bar?

I'd be really keen to know, on both case designs, the width of the "bezel/case" in the front from edge to the start of the keys if you'd be so kind.

I'm using a Contour RollerMouse Red now and that distance is sort of critical (the keys as close to the Roller mouse as possible).

Does that make sense?
Many thanks if you're able to share those numbers...

Cheers!

[Ellipse]

It's 3/4" on the original style cases and about 2/3" on the ultra compact cases

[ryahirv]

It's 3/4" on the original style cases and about 2/3" on the ultra compact cases

Thank you!

[Ellipse]

Some more info about the HHKB style vs. regular style layout options (I just got a question on this over PM):

I'm going to take better photos of the layouts and their descriptions once the early bird keyboards come in.

The difference is in a few keys which are different.

This photo best explains a good approximation of the HHKB style layout.

Besides some cosmetic changes in the labeling of the keys, the HHKB shifts the 2 barrels in the right shift area a few mm from their normal positions to allow for a short right shift (the caps lock key in the split right shift area of the photo you linked to) as well as a 1U key to the right of that key.

If I go through with my own keys, there will not be any stepped keys except ISO enter for the international layout folks.

[Elrick]

This photo best explains a good approximation of the HHKB style layout.

Besides some cosmetic changes in the labeling of the keys, the HHKB shifts the 2 barrels in the right shift area a few mm from their normal positions to allow for a short right shift (the caps lock key in the split right shift area of the photo you linked to) as well as a 1U key to the right of that key.

If I go through with my own keys, there will not be any stepped keys except ISO enter for the international layout folks.

(Attachment Link)

For pity sake Ellipse, why are you even contemplating wasting time for these pathetic HHKB users?

Honestly for christ sake, if they LOVE their HHKBs then why are they here?  They all say how perfect their HHKB keyboards are already so what gives?

Please explain why these cretins wanting you to make for them a Model-F keyboard in the horrid HHKB layout because it doesn't make sense and it keeps the rest of us from receiving OUR original designs, which we have already paid for.  Never prostate yourself to any cretinous HHKB user because frankly they can go elsewhere or they can go rub their HHKB where the sun don't shine (preferably).

Sick and tired or decent people trying to placate these morons wanting a HHKB layout and I can't keep quiet anymore, this has to be said.

[Muffinbottoms]

More

This photo best explains a good approximation of the HHKB style layout.

Besides some cosmetic changes in the labeling of the keys, the HHKB shifts the 2 barrels in the right shift area a few mm from their normal positions to allow for a short right shift (the caps lock key in the split right shift area of the photo you linked to) as well as a 1U key to the right of that key.

If I go through with my own keys, there will not be any stepped keys except ISO enter for the international layout folks.

(Attachment Link)

For pity sake Ellipse, why are you even contemplating wasting time for these pathetic HHKB users?

Honestly for christ sake, if they LOVE their HHKBs then why are they here?  They all say how perfect their HHKB keyboards are already so what gives?

Please explain why these cretins wanting you to make for them a Model-F keyboard in the horrid HHKB layout because it doesn't make sense and it keeps the rest of us from receiving OUR original designs, which we have already paid for.  Never prostate yourself to any cretinous HHKB user because frankly they can go elsewhere or they can go rub their HHKB where the sun don't shine (preferably).

Sick and tired or decent people trying to placate these morons wanting a HHKB layout and I can't keep quiet anymore, this has to be said.

You do know the HHKB layout has been mentioned and planned for since the first page of this project haha?

[Elrick]

You do know the HHKB layout has been mentioned and planned for since the first page of this project haha?

Why should it, since every tosser who owns a HHKB keeps lauding over all of us, how superior their keyboard is hence why push someone to make them a Model-F version, what's the purpose since the 45g Topre is already so superior (according to those freaks)  .

All it's doing is torturing Ellipse into wasting his valuable time searching for those stupid keys ONLY an idiot HHKB user would need.

Time for Ellipse to cut the rope and let the HHKB users sink into the dark cold sea by themselves.  Time to ONLY concentrate upon those who love the original layout of this keyboard so go with the flow and support those that want a REAL Model-F and not some pathetic copy of a HHKB, it's bad enough for having HHKBs around in the first place but wasting time making another one for those ingrates, its just not worth it in any way, shape or form.

[Ellipse]

Hi Elrick, HHKB is not delaying the project as it was offered from the start of orders in late January.

For those who have not been following, we lost a month due to factory delays with the case molds so the project is behind its original schedule.  I am hoping for it to ship from China in late July/August.

[Elrick]

Hi Elrick, HHKB is not delaying the project as it was offered from the start of orders in late January.

I know, just wish they never bothered because with their supreme arrogance ALWAYS claiming how great their tiny calculator-sized keyboard, seems to rule their sad little worlds.

With people like that best to leave them alone to enjoy that sick fantasy and don't dilute and pollute the great original Model-F layout, which is FAR superior to those sycophants delusion.

HATE all HHKB users with such extreme prejudice  .  There, got that off my chest because I fear no Evil from the HHKB brigade, let them come for me  .

[ryahirv]

Hi Elrick, HHKB is not delaying the project as it was offered from the start of orders in late January.

I know, just wish they never bothered because with their supreme arrogance ALWAYS claiming how great their tiny calculator-sized keyboard, seems to rule their sad little worlds.

With people like that best to leave them alone to enjoy that sick fantasy and don't dilute and pollute the great original Model-F layout, which is FAR superior to those sycophants delusion.

HATE all HHKB users with such extreme prejudice  .  There, got that off my chest because I fear no Evil from the HHKB brigade, let them come for me  .

Is there no way for you to be a bit more polite and less aggressive in your posts?
This level of negativity, towards anyone else here, simply isn't warranted.

[muon]

I know, just wish they never bothered because with their supreme arrogance ALWAYS claiming how great their tiny calculator-sized keyboard, seems to rule their sad little worlds.

With people like that best to leave them alone to enjoy that sick fantasy and don't dilute and pollute the great original Model-F layout, which is FAR superior to those sycophants delusion.

HATE all HHKB users with such extreme prejudice  .  There, got that off my chest because I fear no Evil from the HHKB brigade, let them come for me  .

careful, you might cut yourself on all that edginess

[Bevo]

Hi Elrick, HHKB is not delaying the project as it was offered from the start of orders in late January.

I know, just wish they never bothered because with their supreme arrogance ALWAYS claiming how great their tiny calculator-sized keyboard, seems to rule their sad little worlds.

With people like that best to leave them alone to enjoy that sick fantasy and don't dilute and pollute the great original Model-F layout, which is FAR superior to those sycophants delusion.

HATE all HHKB users with such extreme prejudice  .  There, got that off my chest because I fear no Evil from the HHKB brigade, let them come for me  .

Is there no way for you to be a bit more polite and less aggressive in your posts?
This level of negativity, towards anyone else here, simply isn't warranted.

I know, just wish they never bothered because with their supreme arrogance ALWAYS claiming how great their tiny calculator-sized keyboard, seems to rule their sad little worlds.

With people like that best to leave them alone to enjoy that sick fantasy and don't dilute and pollute the great original Model-F layout, which is FAR superior to those sycophants delusion.

HATE all HHKB users with such extreme prejudice  .  There, got that off my chest because I fear no Evil from the HHKB brigade, let them come for me  .

careful, you might cut yourself on all that edginess

You guys must be new here. Meet Elrick

[romevi]

Hi Elrick, HHKB is not delaying the project as it was offered from the start of orders in late January.

I know, just wish they never bothered because with their supreme arrogance ALWAYS claiming how great their tiny calculator-sized keyboard, seems to rule their sad little worlds.

With people like that best to leave them alone to enjoy that sick fantasy and don't dilute and pollute the great original Model-F layout, which is FAR superior to those sycophants delusion.

HATE all HHKB users with such extreme prejudice  .  There, got that off my chest because I fear no Evil from the HHKB brigade, let them come for me  .

Is there no way for you to be a bit more polite and less aggressive in your posts?
This level of negativity, towards anyone else here, simply isn't warranted.

I know, just wish they never bothered because with their supreme arrogance ALWAYS claiming how great their tiny calculator-sized keyboard, seems to rule their sad little worlds.

With people like that best to leave them alone to enjoy that sick fantasy and don't dilute and pollute the great original Model-F layout, which is FAR superior to those sycophants delusion.

HATE all HHKB users with such extreme prejudice  .  There, got that off my chest because I fear no Evil from the HHKB brigade, let them come for me  .

careful, you might cut yourself on all that edginess

You guys must be new here. Meet Elrick

F'real.

[Ellipse]

A major milestone:  We passed $100,000 in orders this weekend (including shipping)!  Please keep discussion over on the GB thread though to minimize duplication.

[Ellipse]

Just a reminder that there is still time in the early bird round.  Sorry this was not clear.

The early bird deadline passed but I decided to make some extra units for the early bird round and keep accepting orders until stock runs out, then orders will be fulfilled in the final round after supply runs out (I'll put up a note on the web site when that happens).  But I would recommend ordering soon just so you don't have to wait an extra few months when I gather the final round orders.

[Ellipse]

And as a note I do intend to make some international layouts and dye sub legends with the new molds instead of relying on Unicomp (for UK, German, and Nordic layouts at least, maybe more).

[againer]

Im not sure, if it will be possible to use the ISO layout with a split right shift (like the HKKB FN)

Is there any chance that you will print a siwss iso layout?
Or is it possible to print only one layer on the keycaps so that ppl with less used  layouts can place them correct, without the second and third layer not matching?
Per example only print the numbers without the !+"... addtition  so that they match any layout.

If you gonna print your own keycaps will you print noveltys?

[Ellipse]

Yes againer that can be done.

Yes I have some Swiss ISO layout orders.  I will either order those sets from unicomp or hopefully order them with the new keys.

I don't expect to print custom keycaps - if there's a special original IBM key cap you want please let me know and I'll check out the cost in a few weeks from now once the legends are to be dye sublimated onto the keys.

[Cods]

Hi Elrick, HHKB is not delaying the project as it was offered from the start of orders in late January.

I know, just wish they never bothered because with their supreme arrogance ALWAYS claiming how great their tiny calculator-sized keyboard, seems to rule their sad little worlds.

With people like that best to leave them alone to enjoy that sick fantasy and don't dilute and pollute the great original Model-F layout, which is FAR superior to those sycophants delusion.

HATE all HHKB users with such extreme prejudice  .  There, got that off my chest because I fear no Evil from the HHKB brigade, let them come for me  .

Steady on, mate. I know you've been here a million years and have seen heaps of GBs come and go (and fail, delay because of dithering, take too long because of pandering to edge cases, etc), but the layout was offered from the start, and Ellipse has said it's not holding anything up, so it's kinda hard to understand your drama with it all. On top of that, Ellipse seems to be pretty solidly pro with managing a complex project, so unless this is the best run and largest keyboard scam of all time (possible, but I'm calling it as unlikely based on current performance) then I reckon it's not that big a deal. YMMV.

I own no HHKBs, have relegated my one Topre FC660C to the family computer (not much of a fan of the switch), coughed up for helping out with the earlybird tooling*, and ordered both an F62 and an F77 on the earlybird order.
And yet... I went with the HHKB layout on one of them, and classic layout on the other. Because I felt like it, and figured another key might come in handy.

Or are you just a bit grumpy because it's a tad cold in NSW?

Cheers, Cods.

[edit: words missing from end of first para, after the... ellipses. OK, brackets. Oh, I crack myself up. Added "... then I reckon it's not that big a deal. YMMV."]


* 'tooling' tee tee hee

[Ellipse]

Good news - the compact xwhatsit controllers are now problem free!  joc just sent me his latest firmware with alternative debounce filter which has 100% fixed all issues.  wcass and phosphorglow's work on the updated prototype controller fixed the other issues with voltages.

The one "stuck" 1 ! key was likely user error (my error) as I connected the controller to the capacitive PCB for testing by jumper wires which I now know are probably too long for reliable operation.  phosphorglow connected my F77 PCB to the compact xwhatsit controller with shorter wire and the stuck key was resolved.

Thanks again to all the hard work of red, wcass, phosphorglow, and joc for making the compact xwhatsit controller a reality!

[atlas3686]

Good news - the compact xwhatsit controllers are now problem free!  joc just sent me his latest firmware with alternative debounce filter which has 100% fixed all issues.  wcass and phosphorglow's work on the updated prototype controller fixed the other issues with voltages.

The one "stuck" 1 ! key was likely user error (my error) as I connected the controller to the capacitive PCB for testing by jumper wires which I now know are probably too long for reliable operation.  phosphorglow connected my F77 PCB to the compact xwhatsit controller with shorter wire and the stuck key was resolved.

Thanks again to all the hard work of red, wcass, phosphorglow, and joc for making the compact xwhatsit controller a reality!

Thanks so much for the hard work guys, very much appreciated.

[Ellipse]

I just received some thorough advice on aluminum finishing options (just for the ultra compact cases).  It seems like the two best options are bead blast + bright dip or bead blast + hard anodized.  The former option produces richer colors but may be less durable, while the latter is one of the most durable finishes out there.  What do you prefer?

Here is a link showing different finishing options:  http://blog.jdslabs.com/?p=580

And are are some photos that the author has generously allowed me to re-post on his bead blast + bright dip finish for his custom audio console box - it turned out very well in my opinion:

[dante]

durability > all else

[tassadarforaiur]

Industrial form is byproduct of maximizing function. The other way around would be a travesty.

[Xovaan]

Crosspost from Geekhack:

Hey guys!

A few clarifications on finish as well that I forgot to mention to Ellipse:

Durability is first and foremost a byproduct of how long the aluminum stays in the anodize tank. Second to this is minimizing angles on the piece, as the anodize is thinner around edges. Third is the material itself. You can make really tough Type II coatings, but I agree that Type III has the best abrasion/scratch resistance.



Cases like those seen from Tex or P0k3r are a simple Type II anodize, similar to the one seen on my amplifier above, usually with a pretreatment to bring back luster lost from the bead blast. Macbooks and iPhones also use a Type II in this fashion. Granted, I'm not discounting Type III, just making note that we use Type II anodize in our products daily with no ill effects. It's also important to note that a bead blast anodize without a bright dip pretreatment will give the keyboard chassis an AR lower receiver-style look, meaning more of a frosty gray than a true sheen, and will also show fingerprints more than other finishes. Bright dip pre-treatment brings back this luster. Think spray painting your car flat black (gray, dusty/frosty) versus a vinyl wrap or true semigloss satin.

I should also add that "clear" Type III hardcoat anodize will color the metal depending on the type of metal used. Source: http://www.midstal.com/sft334/aluminum_reference_guide.pdf



Tank time also affects the coloration, as seen below:



These are all "clear" Type III hardcoat anodize with increasing coat thicknesses, from left to right. Source


Update: You can indeed pretreat with phosphoric acid / bright dip / chemical polish prior to a Type III hard coat! I'd imagine it to be the be-all-end-all to durability without a sacrifice to aesthetics.

This said, I believe what we're looking for is something along these lines:

1. A case with no 90* angles (see first picture-- 0.015 radius ensures full coverage) around potential wear and abuse points to prevent chipping of the finish
2. An aluminum that satisfies those looking for a "clear" anodize, based on that table above
3. Glass bead blast medium, starting with a low psi and working upward until all surface abnormalities and marks are removed.
4. "Bright dip" phosphoric / chemical polish / pre-treatment of the aluminum to bring luster to the anodize
5.  Type III hardcoat: clear (natural), black, gray, etc.

Metal finishing is extremely tribal knowledge; unfortunately I don't have any pictures of these possible finishes offhand outside of my amplifier posted above. Everything I've learned has been through rigorous research in my own DIY projects and visiting several metal finishing shops in my area. It would definitely be beneficial to get in contact with a shop that has samples of each of these styles to see what works best for everyone!

[Bevo]

Are these still shipping end of this month?

[Ellipse]

ok so it looks like hard anodizing / Type III is what everyone is looking for, and possibly Bright dipping in the process for the custom color ultra compact cases.

Bevo they are expected to ship from China in August, and will probably start shipping out individually in September (sea mail shipping will take a month from China).

[kawasaki161]

Will we be able to see pictures of an ultra compact prototype before the final round deadline? I just feel that it would be a lot of money to drop on something of which I don't even know how it compares to the original.

[Ellipse]

Yes kawasaki.  The ultra compact keyboards will ship at least a month or two before the final round for them closes.

[Elrick]

Will we be able to see pictures of an ultra compact prototype before the final round deadline? I just feel that it would be a lot of money to drop on something of which I don't even know how it compares to the original.

If you are a TRUE Believer, then you don't need proof, you just NEED to BELIEVE - that this is the ONE and ONLY Keyboard to ever own in your Life  .

[kawasaki161]

this is the ONE and ONLY Keyboard to ever own in your Life  .

That made me chuckle, you don't even believe that yourself, do you?
Either way, I know that the OG-style cases will be too big for my purposes, I just like comparisons that's all

[stoic-lemon]

this is the ONE and ONLY Keyboard to ever own in your Life  .

That made me chuckle, you don't even believe that yourself, do you?
Either way, I know that the OG-style cases will be too big for my purposes, I just like comparisons that's all

It's sounds silly, but that is kind of where I am at the minute. I know I  want the smaller case F77, and the only thing that will really turn me off to it would be if it ends up looking like some of those spiky led filled gaming keyboards you find on Taobao. I know this is not going to happen, so it is essentially irrelevant waiting until I see the final board.

[Ellipse]

stoic the intention is to make the ultra compact case keyboards hard anodized for ultimate durability - a non-glossy finish to the aluminum.

[stoic-lemon]

Non-glossy is exactly what I am looking for. Any update on colouring? A dark grey, or even bronze like the pictures above would be nice.

[Elrick]

stoic the intention is to make the ultra compact case keyboards hard anodized for ultimate durability - a non-glossy finish to the aluminum.

Damn you Ellipse for offering this.

Now I want a compact case for my F77 as well.  Hard anodized is superb, far better than spray painted finishes plus would last for ever.

[Ellipse]

And Elrick, the compact cases are now available to order separately if you'd prefer to switch between the two.  They include the bottom inner assembly which is the only different part (the other parts are all interchangeable).

[Elrick]

And Elrick, the compact cases are now available to order separately if you'd prefer to switch between the two.  They include the bottom inner assembly which is the only different part (the other parts are all interchangeable).

Lets not get too excited by the so-called slimmer casings here.

Still want the whole Zinc case simply because I've always wanted one for years and now is the perfect time to attain one to work with any latest OS and PC.

Once I receive my Heavenly F77 (original design) then I might fork out extra money for a slimmer cased F77 layout.  Just want to receive my first order then decide to buy another with the Slim Case Design.

Genuinely want at least two versions of your F77, completed with all the keys installed ready to be connected up to two PC setups.

[Ellipse]

Great Elrick and yes, there will be at least one month or two months after the early bird round ships for everyone to decide on ordering before the final round deadline. 

[ThoughtArtist]

So Ellipse, we could go ahead and order the basic keycap set and board, and then order more caps later? I'm getting indecisive because I don't know exactly what I want for the cap layout, but I don't want that to hold me up if I can just order some later. It may take using the board a bit before I know what layout I would like to end up using.

[Ellipse]

Yes thoughtartist that would be fine.  What are you deciding between?

[Ellipse]

Would any of the ultra-compact case fans be interested in ordering a heavier zinc ultra-compact case of the same dimensions and design?  Everyone's ultra compact case will still be aluminum - this is not changing.  Just if anyone was interested in an even more solid keyboard case who prefers the ultra compact case design.

[kawasaki161]

How heavy would either variants approximately turn out?

[Ellipse]

I am not sure on either one.  My guess is that the zinc would add 1-2 pounds over the aluminum ultra compact cases.  Zinc is about 2.6 times as heavy as aluminum.

[Elrick]

Zinc is about 2.6 times as heavy as aluminum.

You would have to add extra mass like a large Brass Plate, to even out the weight with our Zinc Cases  .

It would have to end up looking like an LZ Designed Keyboard in the end.

[Ellipse]

ok I'm going to try to get a few of the ultra compact cases made with zinc - if you'd prefer this option on your existing order or plan on ordering another keyboard/spare case please let me know.