enough is enough

[Matt3o]

I'm mostly talking about the classified here. This gonna be a rant, you've been warned.

I'm really fed up of dealing with childish/lazy/irresponsible/untruthful people in the classified, and I'm not only talking about the 1-post-random-guy, the same happens with "trusted members of the community"(TM).

Group buys
This is where most of the frustration comes. GB are slow by definition. I totally take that. Look at Round4 it took 2 years from start to finish, but 7bit has always been extremely informative about what was going on. When I participate to a GB I know that it is going to take a lot of time. That's not the point.

The problem is that a GB is no easy business. I'm forever grateful to those who invest time and money organizing the GB, but it's a responsibility nonetheless! If you are not ready to spend time, money and frustration DO NOT START A GROUP BUY!

Paypal sucks! We all know that but it sucks even more if you don't play by their rules! Orders have to be flagged as delivered. If you fail in that it may work for a few dozens but as soon as you reach hundreds of transactions they will likely close your account. Don't blame Paypal, blame yourself.

Also if you are going in the $10k+ range be sure to use a business Paypal account. Beware that even business accounts can be "frozen". When you reach $7-10k paypal asks a lot of paperwork. It's nothing that can't be handled, but you need to prove that your business is legit. (they request bills, invoices, ID, ...).

The GB doesn't stop when you receive the goods from the producer. You have to pack, spend in wrapping material, go to the post office, deal with "hey can you split my order in 2... and delay one shipping until moon, venus and juppiter are triangulated?". It takes a lot of time and --again-- responsibility. Consider that you have to be extremely committed to the cause for months. If you know that you'll have an important exam, or you are going to relocate, or your cat is ill, or your girlfriend changes boyfriend every three months, ... don't start a group buy!

Also International orders are boring (from US to rest-of-the-world). You need more paperwork and there are some countries with very strict customs rules (see Germany). You have to play by their rules, not yours. If you are not ready to deal with this don't ship internationally. Find a proxy or state clearly that you don't want to deal with customs. Nobody will blame you.

I could go on forever (remixing the GB thousand times when people have already placed their order for example). But I hope you've got the point. Taking care of a GB it's not a game, even if we are among friends and we are not doing this for money.

Participating to a GB
- Cancelling your order
- Pissing the organizer with "If you don't include Aramaic legends I'm not interested" (there's the IC for that)
- "ops, I forgot to pay"
- "I can't pay by the deadline, but I'm fapping like crazy and in a month I'll get money for selling my semen"
- ...

Well... you know what I mean, right?

I've been here for a year now. Every time a GB ended I saw the goods in the classified within few hours! If you can't afford it right now, don't worry, you'll get the chance to grab the cool stuff in the classified shortly!

Classified and general attitude
I have the goods I want to sell. I put them in the classified in a period I know I'm not too busy. Someone buys them. I ship them within few days.

How could it be simpler than that?

"But my cat died... I had a locusts invasion... my soda is flat...". You know what?! Life sucks! It sucks for everybody! But you already took my money (and my trust). I know the last thing you want to do in this terrible phase of your life is dealing with geekhackers, but try to be informative about what is happening. Just say that you can't fulfill and you will: 1) give the money back OR 2) ship the goods in X-days.

I understand and sympathize with all your troubles and I'll do my best to help you out (need help relocating? need money for your wedding band? need a shoulder to cry on?), but take your responsibilities and do lemonade out of those lemons life throws at you! Everything else is blabbing and excuses.

TD;DR
I'm not taking part to any other GB or buying in the classified (excluding from mkawa and boost and few others I know "personally"). I already participated to some of the ongoing GBs, I am not cancelling my orders because I like to fulfill my commitments, but those will be my lasts.

I know you don't give a **** about it, but I've told you this was a rant.

[bueller]

This should be a must read for anyone participating in the Marketplace. I've had a number of people take 2+ weeks to send my stuff recently with no warning and it drives me insane, the whole point of Paypal is instant transactions!

[rowdy]

In both Classifieds and Group Buys the sticky information thread says, in large red letters, CAVEAT EMPTOR - buyer beware.

In any group of several hundred individuals that take part in a group buy it is almost inevitable that circumstances beyond their control will intervene between a few and the payments.

If a sufficient number drop out to cause the GB to be cancelled - that would suck (not looking at Miami V1 in particular).

If enough partake, and someone offers to take up the slack (looking at Tai Hao in particular) then that is to everyone's benefit.

Classifieds is more a one-on-one situation.  Yes, if you are going to list something and someone pays you for it, then it is generally expected that you ship is as soon as you can.  If you are buying, then it is generally expected that you will pay promptly.  Anything else and risk the transaction being cancelled, or the payment disputed.

I have seen most of this happen over the past 12 months or so, and seem to have been able to avoid most of the disputes.  In all that time, and in a couple of dozen purchases (at least), I have only had two things go missing.  One was a freebie (I only paid a little for postage), and the other I was offered a refund.

Perhaps I was lucky.

[Tym]

All very good points. Should be stickied.

[Matt3o]

In both Classifieds and Group Buys the sticky information thread says, in large red letters, CAVEAT EMPTOR - buyer beware.

I'm not blaming the forum, I'm blaming myself.

[SpAmRaY]

Add to this, if you plan on buying something from someone be clear up front if your going to want the item shipped to a friend of a friend of a distant relatives cousin who knows the guy at the laundry mat, because your not home right now.

[Photekq]

Well said matt3o. I really wish some people would learn how to properly conduct trade and take responsibility.

[Wildcard]

Is it too late to get into this group buy... discussion?

/troll

Well said, I've been here for some time and I see these common problems continuing again, and again, and again. I'm just so glad we have some great members committed to running these awesome GBs. I do believe it's better to communicate when things go bad vs. going silent. But overall, I've only had one real negative experience in 3 years, which goes to show how good our GBs are.

[tjcaustin]

I see how it is.

(I figure this isn't really directed at me, so yeah)

[mkawa]

heatware

heatware heatware
heatware heatware heatware
heatware          heatware
heatware                 heatware       heatware

heatware

seriously. this a community of peers with transactions between peers. that means that transactions must be guided by reputation. REPUTATION MUST BE RECORDED AND DECISIONS GUIDED BY THE RECORDED REPUTATIONS OF USERS. that's what caveat emptor means. it doesn't mean "roll the dice and see what happens". it means that you guys, the community, have the responsibility of recording who is a flake and who is not. buyer beware should come with another term. does anyone know the latin for "seller has the burden of proof?".

[mkawa]

absolutely fantastic OP by the way. we have been seeing a lot of transactions go bad recently and while it disturbs us, there's not a lot we can do other than attempt to guide users in the right direction. ultimately it's up to you guys. we give the community a platform, but the community has to give itself cohesion.

[vivalarevolución]

"But my cat died... I had a locusts invasion... my soda is flat...". You know what?! Life sucks! It sucks for everybody! But you already took my money (and my trust). I know the last thing you want to do in this terrible phase of your life is dealing with geekhackers, but try to be informative about what is happening. Just say that you can't fulfill and you will: 1) give the money back OR 2) ship the goods in X-days.

I understand and sympathize with all your troubles and I'll do my best to help you out (need help relocating? need money for your wedding band? need a shoulder to cry on?), but take your responsibilities and do lemonade out of those lemons life throws at you! Everything else is blabbing and excuses.

This was my favorite part of the rant.

[Grim Fandango]

I have almost never had a bad experience in the classifieds, and any items bought from me were always shipped the next day. However, I do agree that whenever someone buys something from you , it is not ok to ship it a month later like it aint no thing. I have only had one such experience, where an item was shipped weeks after I paid for it. I just waited and let it slide, but honestly, do not post to sell if you are not planning of shipping stuff for 3 weeks after someone has already paid. Or at least tell them in advance.

[Matt3o]

absolutely fantastic OP by the way. we have been seeing a lot of transactions go bad recently and while it disturbs us, there's not a lot we can do other than attempt to guide users in the right direction. ultimately it's up to you guys. we give the community a platform, but the community has to give itself cohesion.

just to be clear. this is by no means a critic against GH. Au contraire, without you guys I would still typing on a logitech and I would have never built a custom keyboard.

I'm just too enthusiastic about keyboard and I probably trust people too much. Now I have to be more careful and pick only the GB from the very (very) trusted people... even though as of now two of my gone-bad transactions are from respectable members.

[funkymeeba]

mkawa, you suggest heatware, but I have one question... If I leave heatware feedback for someone, then weeks later they set the scam wheels in motion, how can I redact my positive feedback? They don't seem to respond to my queries about this.

[esoomenona]

Leave a second transaction linking to the previous and detailing the situation?

[sth]

mkawa, you suggest heatware, but I have one question... If I leave heatware feedback for someone, then weeks later they set the scam wheels in motion, how can I redact my positive feedback? They don't seem to respond to my queries about this.

don't leave feedback until the transaction is complete?

[funkymeeba]

Transaction was complete, item received, etc. The chargeback happened a few weeks later.

[mkawa]

mkawa, you suggest heatware, but I have one question... If I leave heatware feedback for someone, then weeks later they set the scam wheels in motion, how can I redact my positive feedback? They don't seem to respond to my queries about this.

i believe you can leave multiple heatwares for one person and one transaction (if it the outcome changes). that is, the admins won't respond to requests to remove a negative feedback for a transaction that's left after a positive feedback for that transaction has been left.

to be concrete, if i leave a feedback for sth on 8/1 and i'm like "i just got some temporary tattoos from sth and they're awesome yaaaaa" and then on 8/16 i leave another negative feedback that's like "WTF HE TOLD HE MY TATTOOS WERE TEMPORARY IRON-ONS BUT THE DOCTOR SAID THEY WON'T EVER COME OFF. NOW I HAVE A CHERRY LOGO ON MY FOREHEAD FOREVER CRAP. IGNORE my previous positive feedback. sth is a ****. don't do business with this guy. he may look genuine and handsome an all the girls love him, BUT HE'S A LIAR". sth will get a negative feedback that he won't be able to get rid of. he'll still have that first positive feedback you left, but i personally don't do any business with people with neg feedbacks, period, unless they have a pretty genuine defense so ymmv.

fwiw if someone has had a genuine problem with someone in the past where it's 100% their fault and you do business with them anyway, that's totally caveat emptor territory.

[Krogenar]

does anyone know the latin for "seller has the burden of proof?"

onus probandi is the Latin for "burden of proof". The only oft-used Latin phrase I found was:

semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit which means, roughly, that the burden of proof lies with whomever lays the charges. So, if someone were to say, for example, "Mkawa, yo momma's so fat she sat on a dollar, and when she got up, it was four quarters!" Your best comeback would be to say, "Show me the quarters." Then take the quarters and run.

[mikekey]

Wow, I was about to join one and stumbled onto this.

Are Group Buys safe here?

[Puddsy]

Wow, I was about to join one and stumbled onto this.

Are Group Buys safe here?

90+% of them are.

Just know who to look out for.

[heedpantsnow]

They are safe. You just have to be patient...often more patient than you think you could ever be

[SpAmRaY]

They are safe. You just have to be patient...often more patient than you think you could ever be

Also people need to learn to read and to understand what sort of expectations to have.

[Krogenar]

One of the more useful, entertaining and informative rants.

"My soda is flat!"  )

[zennasyndroxx]

just a suggestion: enforce a safe trader or safe gb organizer's tag to people who meet some sort of requirements?

[Matt3o]

just a suggestion: enforce a safe trader or safe gb organizer's tag to people who meet some sort of requirements?

it happened even with "estimated members of the community"

[zennasyndroxx]

just a suggestion: enforce a safe trader or safe gb organizer's tag to people who meet some sort of requirements?

it happened even with "estimated members of the community"

aw shucks. welp, just hope that whatever happened will resolve soon.

[StylinGreymon]

Taking weeks to ship an item...
That doesn't even make sense to me.

I felt like a **** when I was paid was paid for an item on a Friday, and couldn't get to the PO until the following Monday...

[esoomenona]

.

[Matt3o]

I even refunded shipping for a lost package for some keycaps I sent to a guy for free (he is here on GH, he could confirm )...

[pasph]

That guy confirm (oh italian postal service my dear...)