Emacs & Small control keys & Mech Keyboards

[megmn]

I've been thinking about buying a keyboard with mechanical switches for a while, but one thing really bugs me:

I'm a long time emacs user, and you need the ctrl key a lot, as easy accessible as possible. Yet, none of the mechanical keyboards i've seen photos of features a large (read: normal-sized  in the pre windows key era) ctrl key, and none of them seem to have large right control keys that are easily reachable.

Any advice from a fellow emacs user regarding the issue? How bad is it? Are there any particularly emacs-friendly keyboards? What about key switch types and emacs? Am i imagining things and everything will be fine?

I should mention that mx browns interest me the most, mostly the leopold 10 keyless and filco majestouch, neither of which i can try easily because none of the uk/us based return policies are sensible (i'm in Germany). Also the ctrl key is the first key that broke on my current keyboard, http://www.cherry.de/english/products/keyboards_CyMotion_EXPERT.htm ;-)

Thanks!

[woody]

What about key switch types and emacs?

Zero relation.

Am i imagining things and everything will be fine?

Yes. Just pick something and enjoy. MX blue or brown is a safe bet.

[daerid]

You can always use various tools to remap  your capslock key to control. I know that's worked for quite a few people.

[theferenc]

The issue with that is the lack of a right control key, as the OP mentioned.

I'm also a long time emacs user (about 12 years now), and I find that the UNIX layout is the best, which is what the HHKB has, as well as most Sun keyboards. You can also purchase that layout from Unicomp, if you so desire.

If I were you, I would look into an older keyboard that is still only a 101 key. I'm making an assumption here, but given that you said you're a long time emacs user, I assume that also means you aren't using windows (windows versions of emacs are pretty atrocious), so the lack of windows and menu keys wouldn't be much of an issue.

I'm not sure if there are any new Cherry MX based 101 keys, but I know you can still order them in buckling springs from Unicomp. Alternatively, look for vintage boards on ebay or here in the classifieds. You said you were in Germany, maybe contact Ascaii and see if he has any 101 keys left.

As much as I love my HHKB and my UNIX layout IBMs, I know that layout isn't for everyone. The IBMs at least have large control keys on the bottom row (if you use them for that), and you could easily map the HHKBs outside keys to control as well, if you desired, using xmodmap.

[daerid]

Ahh I see. The other option too is to remap one of the right windows / menu keys to control. I find that either one is easier to reach with my pinky than the right control key, which I almost never hit.

[Daniel Beaver]

Re-map the keys. Or buy a Model M.

[theferenc]

I do think a Model M or a Customizer would be your best bet. But they can be heavy for some people.

[Jago]

I should add that megmn (hi!) is an avid Starcraft2 player, so I don't think that HHKB, Unicomp or Model M would be suitable.

megmn: IMO, you should just get a keyboard with browns and if the ctrl bothers you too much, just remap caps lock or whatever key you want to ctrl via software.

[theferenc]

Out of curiosity, why not the BS keyboards? I get the HHKB (I think), but there doesn't seem to be a layout issue on the M or the Customizer.

[Bilbin]

And why is that, Jago?

I don't get why not all of them, including the HHKB.

[theferenc]

Well, I've heard from others that playing many games on the HHKB is frustrating, due to it being such a compact layout. And I seem to recall that Starcraft uses the F keys, but I could be wrong, it's been nearly 10 years since I've ever seen anyone play it.

That said, I play dragon age (both of them) on it with no issues, for whatever that's worth.

[mattdurham]

Remapping the caps lock key is what I do, but barring that choices are limited.

[Jago]

And why is that, Jago?

I don't get why not all of them, including the HHKB.

Starcraft players often use F-keys, which are not usable without a modifier on the HHKB.
Unicomp/Model M are, I think, a bit too stiff for a game where one often repeats the same keys many times in the span of a second (professional players play at 200+ actions per minute)

MX Browns are IMO, a great middle ground for both typing as well as gaming both RTS and FPS genre games. I've owned a Filco for 5 months and it's absolutely fantastic for both.
MX Blues can also be good and some professional SC2 players do use them, but others complain of double-tapping issues, so one should be vary.
MX Blacks can be a reasonable choice for gaming, and the Steelseries 6GV2 is a ridiculously good value proposition for a mechanical keyboard. However, I don't like Blacks for long typing sessions at all.

The Topre switch is good for both typing and gaming, but you NEED the all-45g or all-55g version for gaming, which are comparatively rare. The variable weighted version is really unsuitable for serious gaming.

[theferenc]

"Serious gaming"...that phrase just makes me smile.

Not knocking it, if that's your priority with one of these keyboards, that's cool by me, it's just funny. I'm of the opinion that keyboards are tools for work, tools that can be used for gaming, but I know that opinion isn't shared by everyone. That's also why I think worrying about the price is sort of weird, considering many of us use keyboards to pay our bills (at times, literally).

[Jago]

"Serious gaming"...that phrase just makes me smile.

Not knocking it, if that's your priority with one of these keyboards, that's cool by me, it's just funny. I'm of the opinion that keyboards are tools for work, tools that can be used for gaming, but I know that opinion isn't shared by everyone. That's also why I think worrying about the price is sort of weird, considering many of us use keyboards to pay our bills (at times, literally).

There are people out there who make a living for themselves playing computer games. For them, a keyboard is definately a "work tool" and used "to pay the bills"

[theferenc]

Oh, sure. But that doesn't change the fact that it makes me smile. I say more power to them if they can do it.

But, if it becomes serious, doesn't that defeat the point of it being a game? For me it does.

Anyway, it was just a little humor for me, and I thought I would share. Strokes and folks, and all that.

[megmn]

Hrm, I will take a closer look at those old boards. I think one as non-standard as the hhkb would bother me a bit.. can't explain why though. Guess it's just the fear that it won't work out...

Regarding swapping ctrl and capslock, this guy makes seriuos arguments against it http://xahlee.org/emacs/swap_CapsLock_Ctrl.html Granted, atm I always press CTRL with the pinky instead of the palm anyways.

As for the gaming, well, i could always just use another keyboard for that ;-)

[theferenc]

Yeah, I've read that. The dude is an idiot. He makes all sorts of unsubstantiated claims regarding hand health, and somehow hitting control with your palm, because that's so easy.

Swap it, try it, if you don't like it, swap it back. If you're using X, it's stupid easy, no reboot required (I can think of 4 ways, depending on your DE).

[Daniel Beaver]

Regarding swapping ctrl and capslock, this guy makes seriuos arguments against it http://xahlee.org/emacs/swap_CapsLock_Ctrl.html

He's full of ****. Though I do sort of like his suggestion to swap alt and ctrl.

[The Solutor]

Yeah, I've read that. The dude is an idiot. He makes all sorts of unsubstantiated claims regarding hand health, and somehow hitting control with your palm, because that's so easy.

Swap it, try it, if you don't like it, swap it back. If you're using X, it's stupid easy, no reboot required (I can think of 4 ways, depending on your DE).

 
There is not a right answer to this dilemma.

The keyboard to be comfortable has to be coherent with the others used more frequently, for that reason I will never swap those keys, for the same reason is a good thing for solaris sysadmins used to the SUN keyboards

[daerid]

He's full of ****. Though I do sort of like his suggestion to swap alt and ctrl.

Agreed. I've been typing on qwerty keyboards for 14 years now, for a living, and aside from a small amount of wrist stiffness very recently from a stint on a MS Natural 4000 (which has since disappeared), I've never experienced any discomfort in any of my hands due to typing.

[spremino]

Emacs was designed keyboards which had Control keys near the space bar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Space-cadet.jpg

Thus, I advice you to put Ctrl and Meta in places which mirror the design of the original Emacs keyboard.

Many Emacs users remap Caps Lock to Control.   I don't, since I use Viper Mode, and I have remapped it to Esc.

[Daniel Beaver]

Many Emacs users remap Caps Lock to Control.   I don't, since I use Viper Mode, and I have remapped it to Esc.

We haven't had a vi vs Emacs thread in awhile...

[theferenc]

I don't think this is turning in to one either. But I could be wrong.

[alaricljs]

Meh.... arguing about that crap is pretty pointless, it's painfully rare for someone to change.  It's the same crap over and over.  I like VI.. why?  Because that's what I started with.  I was introduced to jEdit and it has some really awesome features... still use vi.  emacs, well... I already have an OS

[sordna]

Yup, as they say Emacs is a fine environment, it just lacks a decent editor :-)

Jokes aside, I find the Control key really easy to use on Kinesis contoured keyboards. They are always at your thumb tips, you don't even have to look. However I'm a vim user, and had problems with the Escape, so I remapped it to the Kinesis "end" key (also in the thumb cluster), problem solved.

[xwhatsit]

Sooner or later every Emacs user comes to the conclusion the keymaps and input method is painful and harmful.

There's a reason why a vi or vi-like has been bundled with almost every UNIX system I've ever used.

[The Solutor]

Yup, as they say Emacs is a fine environment, it just lacks a decent editor :-)

ROTFL :pound:

[The Solutor]

There's a reason why a vi or vi-like has been bundled with almost every UNIX system I've ever used.

 
Well, frankly is more or less the same as notepad bundled with any windows version. People expect to find them, no matter the quality or the likings.

[ch_123]

Emacs - Eighty Megabytes And Constantly Swapping

[TacticalCoder]

Yeah, I've read that. The dude is an idiot. He makes all sorts of unsubstantiated claims regarding hand health, and somehow hitting control with your palm, because that's so easy.

 
Definitely... That x*hlee is a terrible spammer that used to constantly spam Usenet newsgroups back in the days.  He's totally full of bullsh*t on basically any subject he writes about.

[The Solutor]

Maybe he is an idiot, but is funny to see the same people constantly arguing about the ISO enter and how uncomfortable is, to want the control in the same specular position to have it handy...

[TacticalCoder]

Sooner or later every Emacs user comes to the conclusion the keymaps and input method is painful and harmful.

That is totally true but Emacs is also entirely configurable: it's not because the default shortcuts are completely retarded that you have to use them

For example, CTRL-x simply makes no sense.  No matter where CTRL is, it makes no sense from a touch-typing point of view (don't tell me you use right-CTRL to do CTRL-x, that's just terribly long finger travel innefficiency).  It is slow, it distorts your fingers.  It's RSI-inducing (just like most default Emacs shortcuts, they do induce RSI).

But that's why Emacs starting files should begin with something like this:

Code: [Select]

(define-key global-map [(PUT_SOMETHING_HERE_THAT_MAKES_SENSE)] ctl-x-map)

Or the silly Emacs "cursor movement" and word-selection etc. like forward-char / backward-char...  CTRL-F and CTRL-B makes absolutely zero sense whatsoever.  There's no real logic behind this ('F' for Forward, 'B' for backward... Riiiggghhhhtttt), CTRL-B is one of the hardest and most slow-pain-inducing shortcut to do.

But seen that Emacs is entirely configurable, you can configure it to use vi/vim style forward/backward/up/down char or even WASD-style or even IJKL.

There's a reason why a vi or vi-like has been bundled with almost every UNIX system I've ever used.

 
There's also a reason why a lot of Emacs users configure their Emacs to use less retarded shortcuts ; )

[Daniel Beaver]

The configurability is part of the reason I'm trying to learn Emacs. Viper mode is easing the transition.

[xwhatsit]

Well, frankly is more or less the same as notepad bundled with any windows version. People expect to find them, no matter the quality or the likings.

 
Oooh! Good burn -- except, this is UNIX -- I suppose you'd say the same about bash, or gcc?

@TacticalCoder: just pretend-trolling a vi/emacs flamewar; with viper, it's all moot these days Personally I prefer modal interfaces (hell, I use a modal vi-style web-browser (dwb if you're interested)) and like single-key bindings, so emacs has never floated my boat. The default keybindings in emacs are complete rubbish, though.

I think the choice of modal vs modeless interfaces is kind of a fundamental brain-wiring difference. Look at how upset some people get about Capslock and Insert.

[The Solutor]

Oooh! Good burn -- except, this is UNIX -- I suppose you'd say the same about bash, or gcc?

Bash is not universal as vi, most of the older unix doesn't come with it.

Gcc is not needed by a range of users, so is not installed by default on some *nix  distributions / flavors, and by the way is not always the preferred compiler.

vi instead is a basic tool and even who doesn't like it must know at least few basic commands, and is installed by default in almost any unix installation, no matter if recent or old.

Just some cellphone/embeddedd devices aren't provided with this tool.

[TacticalCoder]

(hell, I use a modal vi-style web-browser (dwb if you're interested)).

 
So dwb is a tiling web browser that is also modal?

Reminds me of this very fine tiling window-manager, written in Haskell: xmonad (don't know about the modal-ness of it that said, but it's tiling).

Here's a nice screenshot of xmonad in action (with some keyboard pr0n too):

http://haskell.org/wikiupload/a/aa/Screen-triplehead-galois.jpg

[xwhatsit]

I have used xmonad; I've standardised on awesome, after flipping between several tiling window managers (musca, scrotwm, stumpwm (very emacs-y!), dwm). Awesome is a little heavier but I like the config file syntax (lua) and the default vim-style keybinds make one feel at home

[almasy]

...press control with my palms?
my palm is 6 and a half inches away from the left control key... how the heck do you palm-press a control key while typing?
pinky sits on the shift-capslock border, push down to press  shift push up to press capslock,  rebind to control and shift and control require no movement at all from neutral position of the pinky!

[woody]

...press control with my palms?

Yes, doing it close to two decades. Left CTRL only.

[kps]

Emacs - Eighty Megabytes And Constantly Swapping

 
I remember when it was Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping. (And it was, too, when you had a class sharing a MicroVAX with 4M.)  Unfortunately, even 80M is small by current desktop standards.

Jokes aside, I find the Control key really easy to use on Kinesis contoured keyboards. They are always at your thumb tips, you don't even have to look. However I'm a vim user, and had problems with the Escape, so I remapped it to the Kinesis "end" key (also in the thumb cluster), problem solved.

I map the (forward) Delete key to Escape; it nicely extends the Space/Backspace symmetry to Enter/Escape.

[TacticalCoder]

Yes, doing it close to two decades. Left CTRL only.

 
But I think you're really in a super-tiny minority and I really wouldn't advice people to do it that way.

[woody]

But I think you're really in a super-tiny minority and I really wouldn't advice people to do it that way.

Whatever floats their boat.

[sordna]

I map the (forward) Delete key to Escape; it nicely extends the Space/Backspace symmetry to Enter/Escape.

Fellow Kinesis user! Well, I swap Tab with Delete for the same reason. I use Tab heavily, got the idea from a Maltron that I used for a week, which has the Tab in the left thumb cluster.

[spremino]

Yup, as they say Emacs is a fine environment, it just lacks a decent editor :-)

 
Not true anymore.  Nowadays Emacs sports a quite complete Vi(m) emulator, which I use, of course ;-)

[jayfinger]

I use Emacs heavily throughout the day since '89.  Between Apple, Sun, and NeXT, I used computers with Ctrl next to A for a long time before I ever had to get used to the "standard" layout.  Just swap the keys.  It's easy, regardless of your OS.  

For the last several years on Windows I don't even swap them.  Instead I map Caps Lock to Control, and leave Control as Control.  That way I get the Control next to A where I am used to it, and other people using my keyboard don't get confused when trying to use the keyboard.  

Or get a keyboard that allows you to swap them inside the keyboard.  I prefer that solution, as it always works.  It works when you're in the BIOS, it works if you take your keyboard to a different machine, etc.

I'm anxiously awaying a Realforce 87U way that even comes with alternate keycaps so that they are labeled correctly.  Yay!

[sordna]

Or get a keyboard that allows you to swap them inside the keyboard.  I prefer that solution, as it always works.  It works when you're in the BIOS, it works if you take your keyboard to a different machine, etc.

Yes, that's a wonderful feature. Do you know which mechanical keyboards out there are programmable?
The Kinesis Advantage is fully programmable, even has a 2nd layer that is also fully programmable, you can remap any key to any position or to even a footswitch, right from the keyboard (no software / drivers required). It's nice to type Dvorak in the LILO / grub prompts :-)
Anyway, I am wondering what other keyboards allow remapping of keys, it would be nice to make a list of them.

[The Solutor]

I am wondering what other keyboards allow remapping of keys.

 
I think the most famous is the Northgate 101

[bpiphany]

Anyway, I am wondering what other keyboards allow remapping of keys, it would be nice to make a list of them.

Any board possible to re-hardwire the matrix with a knife and some soldering...

[megmn]

So, a few weeks later...


Still on non-mech keyboard, but I REALLY like swapping LALT with LCTRL and then swapping CAPSLOCK  with LALT.. This way you have CTRL under your thumb, and ALT is easy to press with the pinky finger.

Interestingly, this works well in most other programs as well. Some photoshop combinations are a bit strange sometimes, but other than that, it works great ;-)

[Johannes]

I purge the useless caps lock key to create a (3rd) ctrl. It's the only ctrl I use.