Have you thought about tenting for the case?
Do you have a list of components so we can see whether assembly is worth it? Have you considered a kit to get price breaks for buying lots of the same components? Unless the other side of the PCBs are really busy it looks like a relatively small sorting job. I nearly volunteered but will wait for a full list :))There aren't that many components, I suppose it would be best to offer the electronics as a kit which could be soldered (if assembly price is too high). I don't have prices for assembly though. I'll put together an electronics component list - the controller and firmware will both be open source.
Also is that MoQ for 100 pairs or 100 halves? People are always looking for gaming pads, these are analogue so would be perfect...That's for 100 pairs, I hadn't really thought about game pads, but they are totally possible. The case halves share all pieces but one (the thumb plate is a mirror image).
Color me interested, probably two of 'em (one topre/one MX). A controller board for an MX version would make sense though, even if hand wiring the switches themselves. What about adding a 7th column with 3 or 4 keys (much like the ergodox's innermost column)? Have you thought about tenting for the case?Unfortunately I know nothing about (and have no time for) developing an MX controller. I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult, but I'm trying to take it one step at a time :)
That's what makes this 'case' awesome - each column can slide nearer or further away to adjust stagger, and each can be raised or lowered which is essentially tenting. Note the slots wherever you see a bolt :)This is correct, I hadn't made that clear: there are crossed slots at every bolt point, wherever there is a bolt there are 2 translational and 1 rotational degree of freedom. Of course you are limited to certain ranges of motion thanks to interference with other parts etc, but I am hoping it's enough.
Actualy, I'm not sure if I read this or assumed it...
By tenting I mean angling it like this:
(Attachment Link)
Color me interested, probably two of 'em (one topre/one MX). A controller board for an MX version would make sense though, even if hand wiring the switches themselves. What about adding a 7th column with 3 or 4 keys (much like the ergodox's innermost column)? Have you thought about tenting for the case?Unfortunately I know nothing about (and have no time for) developing an MX controller. I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult, but I'm trying to take it one step at a time :)
The base is not final - but I really want to get hold of the keyboard before I make any more changes (re: tenting). I was hoping that there is enough adjustability in the columns to make up most people's (fairly small) tenting needs, but I really need to actually have one in front of me to make a decision. I'm going to be quite stubborn with the layout for now, just to limit the scope (or it will never get made). The good thing is that it's pretty modular and individual parts are not to expensive (unless you're buying lots of different bits), so there is potential for changing parts / adding things without having to buy a whole new keyboard in future.
I've seen this project in DT beforehand so I'm very delighted to see that you're planning on producing them. I'm definitely getting one for topre. Though how would you mount topre switches on them?
By tenting I mean angling it like this:
(Attachment Link)
That's why I said essentially - you can lower the edge columns and raise the inner ones for a similar effect. Wouldn't go as steep as that pic though, and wouldn't work if did as you'd be pressing off centre...
There are slots under each column so you could easily screw in some supports?
Makes sense. If it means I can get my hands on this board quicker I don't mind going with topre first then waiting for an MX controller. A parts kit (or at least a BOM) would be nice, since I don't mind soldering the components myself.
Edit: What about calling it the SPACE keyboard? Split-hand Adjustable Column Ergonomic keyboard. :rolleyes:That is better than any name I have come up with (which would be none). Consider it at the top of my potential name list :D
I've seen this project in DT beforehand so I'm very delighted to see that you're planning on producing them. I'm definitely getting one for topre. Though how would you mount topre switches on them?
A very old column prototype:Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/gKlmYso.jpg)
It has changed a lot since then, but that shows the idea. Just push them into the plates from below, and use the PCBs to hold it all together with fasteners. The newer design has press fit threaded studs built into the column itself, as opposed to bolts fitting into tapped holes (this is much cheaper).
Edit: It is worth adding that the dome sheet will need to be cut into squares.
Just to clarify, you mean you'll be able to provide the case? We just need to provide a slider and a dome in order to use topre?
If it's CNC, which I'm not sure, I can help with pricing if you need.
I was pretty sure you were doing this. Doesn't matter then :))If it's CNC, which I'm not sure, I can help with pricing if you need.
Please expand on this :)
The current line of manufacture is: laser cut -> press brake -> install self clinch fasteners -> powder coat.
Ergonomic. Topre. Fully assembled. Built within the UK. Roughly 200 quid.
Allow me to keep it short.
Yes.
By assembled I mean populated PCBs. There is still some soldering to be done after the switches are installed. I have emboldened important information in the first post (you need a donor Topre board). If I managed to get it fully assembled for £200 then that would be a true miracle given the price of Topre keyboards ;D
Ergonomic. Topre. Fully assembled. Built within the UK. Roughly 200 quid.
Allow me to keep it short.
Yes.
By assembled I mean populated PCBs. There is still some soldering to be done after the switches are installed. I have emboldened important information in the first post (you need a donor Topre board). If I managed to get it fully assembled for £200 then that would be a true miracle given the price of Topre keyboards ;D
Will Nopre clone boards suffice for a donor board (the likes of Nopoo, Plum and Royal Kludge boards I mean)?
Will Nopre clone boards suffice for a donor board (the likes of Nopoo, Plum and Royal Kludge boards I mean)?
Completely untested, but they should do. The housings are square unlike Topre, but the difference is small.
If the thumb cluster is adjustable then I'm totally in for a fully loaded Topre model. I love the Maltron-style dish and the aesthetics of the render are wonderful. I don't think I'd mind tearing down my Realforce, and the idea of MX switches on the thumb cluster is actually pretty appealing. Some smooth linear mods and tactile 55g Topre alphanumerics?? Yes please!!
Ah I see, think I glossed over that. This is a bit less appealing if Novatouch sliders are needed. CtrlAlt's MX Topre sliders should be shipping in the not too distant future though. Not sure how available they'll continue to be, but if I recall correctly Bunnylake hinted they could be available on a retail site.
Anyway, IMO the board is a bit less doable for me if it requires Novatouch parts, but I'd still be quite interested in seeing if I could get ahold of the needed parts.
I'm definitely interested, possibly in both options #1 and #3. Few questions:
- Will it be possible to use 4x1u instead of 2x2u keys on the thumb cluster?
- Can the thumb cluster columns be angled relative to one another?
- Any chance of MX/Alps PCBs?
- I know you said you wouldn't, but any chance of LED support?
Could you elaborate a bit more about the differences? I don't have any real Topre boards, only a Royal Kludge, what should I be looking out for as far as the housing goes? I've got one in storage that I could pull out and measure if that's helpful.
I didn't see any measurements on a quick glance; what's the min/max key height on the adjustment? Say from the bottom of the case to the lowest key (middle) and bottom to highest key? ( I hope that made sense) I'm just trying to gauge how high off the desk it puts the keys.
Oh by the way, given the versatility of this board (how it can be modified and adjusted for typing style as well as MX or Topre) maybe it should be called Morphling (a MTG reference) but definitely fits the characteristic of this board! So maybe something like Morphling MX & Morphling T, anyways just some thoughts :p :thumb:
What about adding three LEDs on the controller board for caps/scroll/num lock?
looks like a very interesting hand wire project for the MX version. so something like a Teensy 2.0 would do? or does it require something different?
looks like a very interesting hand wire project for the MX version. so something like a Teensy 2.0 would do? or does it require something different?
[Q1] Where do ppl source topre keyset to fill this dox with?Q1 and Q2 - this IC is for a case and Topre controller, you need a Topre keyboard to take the switches and keycaps from to build it even if you buy option 3.
[Q2] For the Topre option how many g are the springs?
[Q3] If I choose MX path is there any reason for getting option 2? I'd imagine MX path would just be straight hand-wiring is this correct?
thanks and please keep the progress updated, i think this could be the only ergodox i would use. i bought/assembled an infinite dox and the thumb clusters were a pretty big disappointment to me. this one looks very promising! i also like the natural curves on the columns! :thumb:
Too late to register interest for 3?I don't think the signup form is even up yet. But super interested in one.
Keycaps are going to be a possible issue.
Only the fullsize board will cover them completely and even then you'll have mismatching rows.
You will end up with 2 vertical 2u caps from the numpad, an r4 "0" from the numpad, and an r1 backspace.
I guess the other option is to buy an additional keyset, but that will be extra costly.
OP are there any recent prototype photos (non-rendered)? Even if it's just seeing a casing prototype would be great :p thanks :thumb:
I'm extremely interested! How programmable is it? Can I decide the keyboard layout (like the Infinity Ergo Dox)? Or will it all be pre-programmed and hard coded?
Yes, I would absolutely lust over a assembled offering. :p
I'd be very interested on a fully assembled topre split keyboard, count me in
Very interested, made an account so I could vote. I just joined the drop for the Godspeed keyswitches and was planning on joining the ergodox drop but then saw this in the comments. I would be particularly interested in a setup with MX and pcbs, iiuc the option 1 would require stringing lots of wires between switches which would be satisfying in a max headroom way but not very attractive to actually do. But yeah either way if I can mount MX in it I would buy something, that is just too cool of a keyboard.
#3 please! This looks awesome! Reminds me of the Dactyl
Is option 3 includes topre switches?
Ergonomic. Topre. Fully assembled. Built within the UK. Roughly 200 quid.
Allow me to keep it short.
Yes.
By assembled I mean populated PCBs. There is still some soldering to be done after the switches are installed. I have emboldened important information in the first post (you need a donor Topre board). If I managed to get it fully assembled for £200 then that would be a true miracle given the price of Topre keyboards ;D
On the MX front: what about a flex PCB for each column? A little bit like the Kinesis method, but with separate columns.
(Attachment Link)
... can you find a factory willing to make a small run for a sensible price?
If you can are they tough enough to solder to, or is there another way to link them at random stagger?
Quote from: suicidal_orange... can you find a factory willing to make a small run for a sensible price?
I'll get a quote for 1k, and we'll find out.Quote from: suicidal_orangeIf you can are they tough enough to solder to, or is there another way to link them at random stagger?
Soldering is the easy part. I've hand-soldered eroded traces on my wife's Kinesis. Their PCB is a good example of stiff flex which still needs strong mechanicals. See some of the images, here: https://www.google.com/search?q=kinesis+keyboard+teardown+images
Linking is the tricky part. Connectors can be cheap, but cables can be spendy - then there's the routing. Hand-soldering wires is also easy - depending on routing, again. Routing must maintain the aesthetic and allow for the mechanical adjustments.
Other items:
- Since OP understands the problems with feature creep, any MX option must not impede the Topre effort.
- The controller PCBs could easily be redone the same size with Ergodox components. Actually, I'll have a look at that part, as well.
- Measurements might not even be needed. If OP exports a row as a STEP file, Altium makes it easy to define regions from any flat surface on the 3d body. Other ecad could use DXFs.
I hope I'm not needlessly cluttering the thread by talking about an MX possibility.I can get behind this. The price seems realistic and sounds reasonable enough. Maybe OP can look into this for a complete MX package option.
Exploratory quote from a US-based fab: for 1000 PCBs, each one is under US$3. If each keyboard needs ten, that's $30 per keyboard when buying enough for 100 keyboards. Maybe half that cost if done directly through a shop in Shenzhen. 0.5mm overall thickness; 1oz copper on two sides; no silk. It's stiff enough to hold switches and to hand-solder wires onto, but flexible enough to conform to mechanical features.
I hope I'm not needlessly cluttering the thread by talking about an MX possibility.
Exploratory quote from a US-based fab: for 1000 PCBs, each one is under US$3. If each keyboard needs ten, that's $30 per keyboard when buying enough for 100 keyboards. Maybe half that cost if done directly through a shop in Shenzhen. 0.5mm overall thickness; 1oz copper on two sides; no silk. It's stiff enough to hold switches and to hand-solder wires onto, but flexible enough to conform to mechanical features.
How much for single sided? If you've got a joining wire you'd may as well solder it the other side of the trace on the same side of the board...
Or if it's not much cheaper we could put an LED circuit on the back?
I remember OP stated he doesn't care for LEDs at all but i sincerely hope this (soft PCB with LED support) would be an option for MX side.Quote from: suicidal_orangeHow much for single sided? If you've got a joining wire you'd may as well solder it the other side of the trace on the same side of the board...
Gut feeling: going to 1-side won't help cost, in these quantities.Quote from: suicidal_orangeOr if it's not much cheaper we could put an LED circuit on the back?
Extra pads are free, and holes are cheap. It would be left up to the user whether it's worth five more wires per column just for LEDs.
I remember OP stated he doesn't care for LEDs at all but i sincerely hope this (soft PCB with LED support) would be an option for MX side.
I hope I'm not needlessly cluttering the thread by talking about an MX possibility.
Exploratory quote from a US-based fab: for 1000 PCBs, each one is under US$3. If each keyboard needs ten, that's $30 per keyboard when buying enough for 100 keyboards. Maybe half that cost if done directly through a shop in Shenzhen. 0.5mm overall thickness; 1oz copper on two sides; no silk. It's stiff enough to hold switches and to hand-solder wires onto, but flexible enough to conform to mechanical features.
I'm thinking an MX (and alps?) case run first to raise r&d money for the Topre effort would be the way to go, but if MOQ will allow two files in the same order Topre people could have a pretty case to look at while waiting for their controller. But that would be up to the OP - I'm just a fan of the design like everyone else :))
Indeed I do need to raise money for it, I want to build a full prototype before I take people's money (I don't know if the column design will actually be good!). Takes a more significant investment than I'm comfortable making given the idea might not work out. Aside from crowdfunding - which might end up in people not getting anything and losing money - I'm quietly working on a split HHKB which might be able to serve this purpose.
How much money are we talking here? I'd be totally up for crowdfunding the prototype and I would expect nothing in return and would still buy the final product at full price on release/pre-order.
I haven't done extensive SMD soldering so I'd prefer Option 3, but wouldn't mind Option 2 either. Hope it's not too late for the interest check!
How much money are we talking here? I'd be totally up for crowdfunding the prototype and I would expect nothing in return and would still buy the final product at full price on release/pre-order.
In for option 3 as well. Really concerned about how I'll source topre w/ mx sliders though...
The board in the renders is gorgeous. I would totally be in for number 3, Topre.
Edit: One question. I've heard some users complain about pain from long-term usage of the Ergodox thumb clusters. Do you think this could happen with your design as well, or are the thumb clusters sufficiently adjustable to eliminate this?
It looks like this board has answers to the Ergodox thumb cluster's two big problems:
- The Ergodox thumb cluster is flat, requiring you move your thumbs "sideways" to press down.
Whereas... This board's thumb cluster isn't flat; it's adjustable. It's not perfectly clear yet how adjustable it is, but it should at least mitigate this.- The Ergodox thumb cluster is pretty far from the rest of your hand, requiring a bit of a stretch.
Whereas... The thumb cluster of this board is 1 column closer to your fingers, because it doesn't have the inner columns of the Ergodox.
Because there are no prototypes yet, it's not yet clear how well this design solves those problems.
On the MX front: what about a flex PCB for each column? A little bit like the Kinesis method, but with separate columns.
(Attachment Link)
That would be ideal but can you find a factory willing to make a small run for a sensible price? If you can are they tough enough to solder to, or is there another way to link them at random stagger?
+1 for interested in option #3 for a split topre keyboard.
For me, the closer it is to a split hhkb the better.
You may be interested to follow my other project: https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/another-custom-split-hand-topre-board-need-your-input-t14769.html
It is a mod for Realforce / other capacitive keyboards which is basically a split HHKB. I'm working on that before I continue developing this project. :thumb:
+1 for interested in option #3 for a split topre keyboard.
For me, the closer it is to a split hhkb the better.
You may be interested to follow my other project: https://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/another-custom-split-hand-topre-board-need-your-input-t14769.html
It is a mod for Realforce / other capacitive keyboards which is basically a split HHKB. I'm working on that before I continue developing this project. :thumb:
OP are there any recent prototype photos (non-rendered)? Even if it's just seeing a casing prototype would be great :p thanks :thumb:
This thread was to gauge whether I could sell enough to pay off the high investment cost of making a full working prototype :)