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geekhack Marketplace => Interest Checks => Topic started by: kbd0 on Wed, 07 September 2022, 15:53:51

Title: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: kbd0 on Wed, 07 September 2022, 15:53:51
curve0: (first prototype)
(https://i.imgur.com/DaZfrCb.jpg)

Back
More
(https://i.imgur.com/ggXmEwY.jpg)

About the prototype:
More
The prototype has open sides. I am considering adding walls. Please fill out the interest check for your preference to be heard.

The prototype has extra cutouts that will not be in the final product. For example the switch cutouts are extra tall on the spacebar row in the prototype.

The spacebar row angle and offset (from shift row) will probably be smaller in the final product than in the prototype.



Why curve
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It has long been known that a flat typing surface is not very ergonomic. This is why profiled keycaps exist.
You may have noticed that all keycap profiles share a common characteristic: the overall typing surface is in the general shape of a curve.

(https://i.imgur.com/LM8NMvI.jpg)
(original photo from https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=68550; check out that thread to see lots of other profiles)

Changing the keytop angles (in order to achieve a curved typing surface) has flaws:
  • The angle of the force applied to the key is not in line with the translation axis of the switch. As a result:
    • Only the component (https://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/vectors/u3l1d) of the force that is parallel to the switch action actually contributes to moving the switch. The operator therefore needs to press harder in order to move the switch the same amount (vs flat keytop):

      (https://i.imgur.com/0hPlQGi.jpg)

    • The perpendicular force component becomes friction. This results in a less smooth key travel.
      • Additionally, the added friction resists the movement of the switch and makes the operator have to press even harder!

  • The angled keycaps also need to be taller. The perpendicular force component therefore has greater leverage, which increases its added friction (which decreases smoothness and requires you to press even harder):

    (https://i.imgur.com/EPcUFTg.jpg)

To fix these flaws, curve0 has the switches themselves at an angle. This gives a curved typing surface with flat keycaps.

(https://i.imgur.com/hiin7KF.jpg)

Another advantage of having the switches at an angle is that your finger actually moves in the direction of the press during the keytravel, which feels more comfortable (in my opinion at least).



About curve0

To give everyone a chance to try this new concept, I designed a simple construction to keep the price low. The case (into which the plate is integrated) is cut and bent from a single piece of metal. The material is stainless steel with a brushed finish.

curve0 is designed specifically for DSA keycaps but XDA works too (they are taller so the curve will be a bit more pronounced and the keys will feel closer together (vertically)).

With DSA keycaps, the typing surface of curve0 is similar to that of MT3. The exception is the spacebar row, which has a slight downward angle.



Layout support
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Layout options TBD. Since extra switch cutouts (from supporting multiple layouts) would be visible on the bottom two rows, I will probably have multiple versions each with fixed layout (on those rows). Please fill out the IC form for your preferences to be heard.



Kit will include
You will need your own: switches, keycaps, PCB-mount stabilizers

Price
Under $100; exact amount TBD

If you are interested please fill out the Interest check! (https://forms.gle/bHZJ3BoEuCyHiL7RA)


Discord server
https://discord.gg/8vnp8U6Z
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: mmayhem17 on Wed, 07 September 2022, 16:00:33
just buy some SA bro, don't need to reinvent the wheel.
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: wndy on Wed, 07 September 2022, 16:05:12
This is very strange, but assuming the price would actually be sub-$100, I'd still buy it just to try it out. Creative project, I like seeing things like this even if it might not be exactly the most simple solution to the problem.

Good job!
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: mvkb on Wed, 07 September 2022, 16:16:47
Love crazy ideas like this!
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: IO Sam on Wed, 07 September 2022, 17:22:20
Yeap! I think I'd be interested in trying something like this... Reminds me of how Model F and M boards are similarly curved. Nice to see something that is actually trying to improve one's typing experience for a change (rather than just being "bouncy" and pretty)!
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: andromache on Wed, 07 September 2022, 17:36:26
This is neat. Would definitely try it at sub-$100.
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: stewfayew on Wed, 07 September 2022, 17:41:25
I could finally use my one abandoned DSA set!?
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: Sax_______ on Wed, 07 September 2022, 18:00:17
That's cool and all but

DSS exists
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: treeleaf64 on Wed, 07 September 2022, 18:32:20
Quote from: Sax_______ on Wed, 07 September 2022, 18:00:17
That's cool and all but

DSS exists



yea   This is a Cool Idea!  I am trying to figure out how to get this bent shape    , love the look   yes   I see DSS and  DSS is good
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: Zanhana on Wed, 07 September 2022, 20:37:40
so is the PCB also curved, or is there a separate one for each row?
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: HappyB0T on Wed, 07 September 2022, 21:11:39
Quote from: mmayhem17 on Wed, 07 September 2022, 16:00:33
just buy some SA bro, don't need to reinvent the wheel.

I would imagine this would feel better than SA. If this keyboard was a split no one would say anything about the madness. Madness contained in 60% footprint may seem trivial but I like the intent here. SA num row feels odd since it is so far away from the actual actuation. Possible that you may feel a more consistent actuation and may not feel like you are typing on stilts.

__________________________________________

I'm cool with the idea.
Feedback:
The break on the space bar row looks a bit exaggerated. If it was possible to maintain that angle but cheat the keys closer to R2 may result in a less pronounced gap. An alternative is to raise the back a little and have a consistent arch toward the spacebar
Sub 100 is a nice sweetspot - thanks for providing pricing estimate.

Please consider adding a picture not at an angle or some sort of schematic showing a comparison of the SA image presented and the proposed layout with keycap profile. Or a close up side profile of your proto similar to the SA pic.

Consider a top-down view to show spacing between rows. It looks off from your pictures currently but is hard to judge.

**I am drunk - hope this makes sense :D
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: SzGeri on Wed, 07 September 2022, 22:17:59
Okay, at first I was like, this is stupid. But then I read your explanation and now I'm kind of intrigued. If you manage to keep the price down, I think many people would be willing to try this.

A suggestion to make it even cheaper and to potentially make it sound better would be to make it out of some kind of plastic. I love steel cases but not so much steel plates. And a plastic very open keyboard has the potential to sound like this keyboard everyone is obsessed with. (https://youtu.be/sVInBOLSqoM)
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: wndy on Wed, 07 September 2022, 22:37:34
Quote from: HappyB0T on Wed, 07 September 2022, 21:11:39
Quote from: mmayhem17 on Wed, 07 September 2022, 16:00:33
just buy some SA bro, don't need to reinvent the wheel.

I would imagine this would feel better than SA. If this keyboard was a split no one would say anything about the madness. Madness contained in 60% footprint may seem trivial but I like the intent here. SA num row feels odd since it is so far away from the actual actuation. Possible that you may feel a more consistent actuation and may not feel like you are typing on stilts.

__________________________________________

I'm cool with the idea.
Feedback:
The break on the space bar row looks a bit exaggerated. If it was possible to maintain that angle but cheat the keys closer to R2 may result in a less pronounced gap. An alternative is to raise the back a little and have a consistent arch toward the spacebar
Sub 100 is a nice sweetspot - thanks for providing pricing estimate.

Please consider adding a picture not at an angle or some sort of schematic showing a comparison of the SA image presented and the proposed layout with keycap profile. Or a close up side profile of your proto similar to the SA pic.

Consider a top-down view to show spacing between rows. It looks off from your pictures currently but is hard to judge.

**I am drunk - hope this makes sense :D

Yeah, I do agree with the comment on the bottom row, it does look a bit extreme from the pictures included. I think maybe even just lessening the angle of the bottom row in general might be a decent idea as well, not just changing the look
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: P103 on Wed, 07 September 2022, 23:28:44
This is cool  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: hkhawk on Wed, 07 September 2022, 23:30:30
Very cool idea
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: hkhawk on Wed, 07 September 2022, 23:47:35
I think reducing the gap and angle between the bottom row and alphas is probably a good idea. Also, I would prefer if the USB port was centered.

Also can you please post better pictures of the side profile?
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: kbd0 on Thu, 08 September 2022, 00:09:53
Quote from: Zanhana on Wed, 07 September 2022, 20:37:40
so is the PCB also curved, or is there a separate one for each row?

Don't want to say too much as it may still change. But first proto has a curved PCB with reliefs for the stabs/smt components and seems to be a great solution so good chance that it will stay. Will update as it gets more final.
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: kbd0 on Thu, 08 September 2022, 00:19:14
Quote from: HappyB0T on Wed, 07 September 2022, 21:11:39

Feedback:
The break on the space bar row looks a bit exaggerated. If it was possible to maintain that angle but cheat the keys closer to R2 may result in a less pronounced gap. An alternative is to raise the back a little and have a consistent arch toward the spacebar
Sub 100 is a nice sweetspot - thanks for providing pricing estimate.

Please consider adding a picture not at an angle or some sort of schematic showing a comparison of the SA image presented and the proposed layout with keycap profile. Or a close up side profile of your proto similar to the SA pic.

Consider a top-down view to show spacing between rows. It looks off from your pictures currently but is hard to judge.

**I am drunk - hope this makes sense :D


Quote from: wndy on Wed, 07 September 2022, 22:37:34

Yeah, I do agree with the comment on the bottom row, it does look a bit extreme from the pictures included. I think maybe even just lessening the angle of the bottom row in general might be a decent idea as well, not just changing the look

Will update with some more photos soon!

Regarding the bottom row I do agree it is a bit much and I will be lessening the angle and offset. But even with this version I found it was easy to get used to as the thumb is quite mobile and independent from the rest of the hand
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: Farhandsome on Thu, 08 September 2022, 00:21:19
Really interesting concept. Would love to see a Tsangan option and noted that in the IC.

I hope this project is successful so you can come back and make a full alu chassis compatible with the pcb for R2  ;)
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: panka on Thu, 08 September 2022, 00:31:18
that's what i've been saying man! thank you for putting this into practice
Quote from: chat and team on Wed, 07 September 2022, 15:58:55
no why would anyone want this
also can someone perma ban this guy already
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: Soums on Thu, 08 September 2022, 00:41:57
Nice explanation this is an interesting concept. Heard people even talk about different weighted springs depending on how far/close from home row keys they are; this seems to try to solve the same problem in a more practical way.
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: kapowaz on Thu, 08 September 2022, 03:29:28
I don’t know if it’s for me but I love that you’re pushing into new territory with this concept. Really interesting engineering problems to solve as well. Good luck with the IC!
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: HappyB0T on Thu, 08 September 2022, 06:43:15
Quote from: chat and team on Wed, 07 September 2022, 15:58:55
no why would anyone want this

#fun
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: plag on Thu, 08 September 2022, 07:07:40
Awesome project ;D
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: jiminojimi on Thu, 08 September 2022, 07:10:00
This is a good price point and the curve is distinguished enough for me to trial it for months

I’d like it to have a TKL option
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: 0atneil on Thu, 08 September 2022, 13:05:04
I like it, hoping for tsangan layout.
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: fortissim2 on Thu, 08 September 2022, 13:29:09
Sounds awesome! Would prefer a 40% variant though. :)
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: lewisflude on Thu, 08 September 2022, 15:25:47
Great idea and clean execution, cool to see you take a problem and find your own way to solve it. Great work!  :thumb:
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: catamscott on Thu, 08 September 2022, 18:20:07
really cool project, and price is good enough that i'd be down to grab one if and when it hits gb  :thumb: hoping split right shift gets included
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: crookey on Fri, 09 September 2022, 01:04:16
Curved layout is interesting. Cool project.
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: Nuap on Fri, 09 September 2022, 01:44:00
This is quite neat, I'd be down to try.


I see that in your IC you have the incorrect layout for HHKB. The right shift should be split with a 1u Fn for a standard HHKB layout.


With that being said, please make a HHKB or Tsangan layout available with:
- Split backspace
- Split right shift
- Tsangan OR 7u HHKB bottom row
- Optional stepped caps
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: Findecanor on Fri, 09 September 2022, 06:52:21
I have an old idea that perhaps angling the ZXCV row this way might be good but that the other rows should have sculpted keycaps.
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: hkhawk on Sat, 21 January 2023, 22:41:54
Any updates?
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: EdgeOfInfinity on Tue, 07 February 2023, 18:23:52
sweet diagrams
Title: Re: [IC] curve0 (keyboard)
Post by: EdgeOfInfinity on Wed, 12 July 2023, 17:50:16
this dead??